Interview with Racha Salah

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Interview with Racha Salah
2013
TAPE 1
Nicola Pratt: Can I begin by asking you when and where you were born?
Rasha Salah: I was 1973, in the refugee cam, Ein El Hilweh, South Lebanon, Sayda.
NP: Did you grow up there?
RS: Yes, in a way, at least for my 7th year, I was still in Ein El Hilweh, after that my
parents had to move form the camps because they were targeted as political
responsible, politicians so they had to move from the camps and we started moving
on. But I mean my connection with the Refugee camp remained until I left to study
university in France, so I was going every summer, I continued to go.
NP: what did your parents do?
RS: My two parents were in the PLFP, more like leftist side of the political Palestinian
organizations, PLO, so they had different responsibilities, but they were both
politically engaged and committed.
NP: What was the first sort of event, or political event or event outside of the house
that you remember growing up?
RS: the Israeli, the Israeli invasion, I think this is what shocked me most, I don't know
if this is the word, but this is the thing that really changed suddenly in my life, from
my very happ childhood in Ein El Hilweh, I mean I was born in a refugee camp but I
was very happy child, we were very happy children, we had lots of love, and lots of
faith, that Palestine was coming back, so as kids we didn't think about this thing from
a political point of view, but just having all those people living very close to each
other was kind of fun. We all lived very close, when we came to Beirut, people live
far from each other and they don't talk a lot, so we had this... lucky to be in Ein El
Hilweh. Suddenly the Israeli invasion came and the camp of Ein El Hilweh at least
was, 90% at least, destroyed, so almost nothing left, the bombs noise and sound and
people shouting, crying and destruction of houses, blood, dead people in the street,
and no one daring to go and take them out because might be shot by a sniper or
something, I mean those images were suddenly all there, like a nightmare, but we
didn't wake up really from the nightmare, it was true, and real, and that was very...
out yeah.
NP: and so, then you would have been still young?
RS: Yes, I was 9 years.
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NP: 9!
RS: Then we moved to Beirut, my grandparents stayed in the camp but, my parents
took us from Ein el Hilweh where I used to live with my little brother and sister, and
my grandmother, so they moved us to Beirut, and then we had the invasion from the
Beirut perspective, we lived it in Beirut also, we had to run from one house to
another, the bombing, the boats, the... so it was also another, another experience, it
wasn't concentrated in a small place like the camp, it was bigger, we didn't really see
the people but all the bombing, all the risks we have to take each time you go out,
no water, no electricity for sure, but yeah the scariness, I don't know if I would ever
be scared as that time in my life. The bombing, not knowing where the bomb will
come, in Beirut it was more scary than Ein El Hilweh, although bigger, but in Ein El
Hilweh, we were all gathered together under the ground in the... what you call it.
NP: Bunker, yeah.
RS: Bunker, so its like if you all die together its like one bomb, and its done, in Beirut
it felt it was more scary to die in the city and not know where you are exactly, its not
the same thing. But yeah, that was 82, my first...
NP: and did you continue your schooling in Beirut?
RS: Yeah, Beirut, then... well we moved a lot, then Syria and came back to Lebanon
to Beqaa, and after the Beqaa the Chouf, and then back to Beirut, then I left to
France for university. Yeah, its, we moved a lot and in Beirut we moved at least 4 or
5 times, so. Yeah, my with parents situation and all the bombing everywhere, we've
been, there was something dangerous, or risk or for security we had to leave so, and
sometimes because politically my parents were not allowed to be in a place
anymore, kicked out of the place, so... so we moved again and again. Made me lots
of friends.
NP: what did you study in France?
RS: I was very lucky to have university scholarship, so, I studied... I wanted to go
study theater to be honest, and then apparently, the scholarship does not cover this
kind of study because it is not enough hours, history of art and theater so I had to
choose something else. So I did something that is called, social and cultural
animation, kind of cultural management, and then I continued my masters in
Anthropology.
NP: Also in France?
RS: In France yeah.
NP: and when you were at university, were you involved in any student societies or
any sort of activities?
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RS: Not at all, it took me a while in France to feel that I want to be engaged in
anything, not only concerning France, but even Palestine, I needed really to digest all
what I lived back home in... I was not politically engaged, probably a reaction for my
parents life, so I didn't want this kind of life, but slowly I had to face people who
knew nothing about refugees, Palestinian refugees, about Palestine, so much
unfairness so much stupid things said about Arabs, about Palestinians, about... so it
was irritating me and I was boiling slowly and then I ended up by being, yeah...
activist for Palestine manly, so, I tried to do something in my way, so wrote a book
about Palestinian exile through my family, which is my tribe, because my father is
Bedouin, so through the family in the Bedouin origin we have... and how they moved
from Palestine to Lebanon, and how we grew up in the camp and all this through the
women that impressed me in my life, my grandmother, my mother, aunts, so... that
was my way to do that, now if I read the book, it's a bit naive but that was y way to
say I want to do something for Palestine and my people.
NP: that's okay. And then when you returned to Lebanon after you finished your
university, what did you do?
RS: I did my internship in the UNRWA, in the French department, they were starting
the French schools in the camps, so I was there in this department, so then I went
finishing my university and came back and I had the opportunity to work with the... a
project between UNDP and the ministry of the displaced in Lebanon, working about,
trying to bring back the Christians of the mountains, of the Chouf back, so trying to
put in place some projects that would interest the youth, and people to go back,
agriculturally or industrially, I mean trying to find out which kind of projects could
attract this population to come back, after a kind of peace have been done and
reconciliation between Druze and Christians, so, I was responsible of the youth
department, which was a nice experience, but made me hate any UN thing for ever.
Because they are just paying us money to do projects and I don't think they really, I
don't think they really care if these projects are implemented or not, just like, you
present a project and you get paid for that, good, do again, and more and more. And
then its not implemented or not correctly implemented or we don't give enough, I
mean the UN don't give enough importance of implementing all of this, and its
already the experience I had with the UNRWA, and well, my story with the UN
started with 48, or abit before, when they recognized the state of Israel, or
announced the state of Israel, and when they do not do anything to push Israel to
apply the resolution that they signed as a condition of the creation of Israel, which is
159, this is 191, this is a resolution that has been signed, as condition to the creation
of Israel and its not respected, nothing, no pressure is done against Israel, I already
have an ideological problem with the UN so, I am not going to defend it, it was a
good experience professionally, and then I moved to teaching, and then I went back
to France and came back here, and then I worked with a Canadian international NGO
called the right to play and now with Arab fund for arts and culture.
NP: so, how did you make the transition from working in UN projects, sounds like
developmental projects to working in international Organization, Canadian
organization through working in arts and culture, how... how...
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RS: Well, there is worse, I went back to France between the UNDP displaced project
and the right to play international, development through sports, I mean its all
development sector, which is also my field, but the worse thing is that in France I
really wanted to work and I was really very exhausted of all the... it was after 9/11,
and I had enough of all the politics, Arabs, Israel, America, all these cliches about the
people and the things, and I wanted to change completely the field and I worked for
the train company, and for Total company. Ideologically it was completely the
opposite of what I think of the world and how we are using the richness of Africans
and whatever, but at that time I really needed to take this distance with my region
and what's happening, I really needed that, psychologically I needed to recharge my
battery with something else, at least Total company never pretended being any
social or humanitarian development thing, its industrial and they are just taking
money where they can find it and that's it. Well, I have this problem with all the
NGOs and the United Nations thing, and they are pretending, pretending but they
are just destroying more and more people in the region I live in, so it was also a
funny experience, then came back because it is also in the development, the right to
play was NGO, so it is still in my field anyway, and then yeah, foundation, I mean I
had some experience after that in management so my position was about
management, then I started to be interested in the fields of arts and culture, and
digging a bit more, not to be only a manager of grants but also initiate some events
or things.
NP: and through these different jobs that you've done, those different types of
positions that you've held, have you been able to link that to Palestine, and doing
something for Palestinians?
RS: Not necessarily through my job, I wouldn't mix things this way, because if we
were working with Lebanese and Palestinian community I wouldn't go and do just
for Palestinians you know, or in AFAC the Arab foundation for arts and culture, I
wouldn't give grants only for Palestinians but parallel to this, I am also activist when I
can, I cofounded with a group young Palestinians from different refugee camps,
association called Ajyal, actually its official name is Social and Communication
Center. But we call it Ajyal, which means generations in Arabic, and our main
concern was that we wanted to understand politics. Our cause whether we wanted
to not, whether people like that or not, it is political, its not religious, its not
humanitarian its not social, it is political. If we ignore this part of the problem, we
would not learn how to ask for our rights, and this is what happened in Oslo, for me,
when Arafat goes to the negotiations with no specialist with anything, not even
International law, not even in urbanism, not even, and he gives, gives, and the other
side has tons of specialists in every field to negotiate it and to discuss it, so this is a
shame for me, for us, this is... that was the start, we should absolutely do something,
young friends of mine and me, we had to do something, then we created Ajyal,
because we wanted to make more awareness, more political awareness about the
cause.
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NP: did you feel that Ajyal could do something other than other political factions or
groups? did you feel that Ajyal could do something that other groups in Lebanon
were not doing or were not able to do?
RS: at least what the group, what we felt at that time, it was in 1998 or 7. What we
felt at that time, we had enough NGOs working with women, embroidery, with kids,
they are dirty on the streets they would give... we teach them how to play in peace,
we teach them how to draw how to sing, and distribute some cloths and this was
humiliating for us I mean this exists in our societies, majority of our kids and young
people, and women who need to first work and help their husbands who often don't
have work, second maintain this tradition of embroidery, but this is not the only
parts of society. We have all the young people between 15 and 35, 40. No one is
taken care of, nothing happens, no one takes care of them; they take care of them
when they are kids until they are 15, then girls go to embroidery and boys are on the
streets. So, we thought this is really, this is destroying our society, becoming like
assistance, dependent on NGOs and international help and UNRWA and PLO
Organizations and this is destroying our societies, so what we needed to do is not an
NGO, is not a social space where, we are giving humanitarian aide, we wanted really
the kind of movement of people who are there to discuss politic, and whatever
project can help in that, like doing summer camps, meeting with young Europeans,
yearly we do like summer camps with European young people to discuss our
different problems, because we have these problems, in Europe they have other
problems. So, from one side we wanted to tell these people don't immigrate
[inaudible: 18:13]... like in an illegal way, second, tell them if you really want to go to
Europe just be aware that there are other issues and problems in Europe, they are
suffering themselves from social economical problems and issues. So, it was
important for us that those young people in the camp, we were working with, be
aware of what is happening in the world, we shouldn't be closed in our own
problems, Israel and Arabs, or Palestinian problem, and not see what is happening,
because all is related, justice is related in the world. So this is one part and the
second part, we have enough people who are shy to say, to name things, we didn't
want to pretend to do culture to hide a political thing, or whatever, we would do
culture if this would make us laugh while we are meeting and talking about Palestine
and politics and real issues. We wanted to meet people from Ramallah, from Gaza,
from 48, from Jordan, from Syria, and we organized summer camps with all these
young people coming from different refugee camps or cities from Palestine, and
discuss as Palestinian youth what shall we do, what can we do, how can we at least
communicate, how can we at least know what each group of Palestinians is living
and what is her or his situation in each country. So that was for me, yeah, that was
not done before Ajyal, at least what I have seen in Lebanon.
NP: Is Ajyal still active until now?
RS: yeah, and working the same way. Refusing to have any project even if it is
bringing lots of money, like, now people are saying take money, work with refugees,
the Palestinian refugees coming from Syria because Syria is very trendy now, and we
say, no, its not our ting, we not going to have money just to have money and say we
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did this and that. We need projects that fit our capacity before anything, and
credibility, our honesty with ourselves; we are not a social and humanitarian
association.
NP: What were some of the challenges that you faced in creating this organization
and keeping it going?
RS: the first one as Palestinians, we cant establish an association, so we had to ask
some Lebanese friends to do so, which they did, they kindly did. But this is one of the
things, like makes you, this is one of the things that we had to start with talking with
the young people. We don't even have the right to have an association, we are born
here, I am the third generation in Lebanon, I participate in the economy of this
country, and every other immigrant or non Lebanese living in Lebanon send their
money to their country, which is fair enough, every immigrant does this wherever he
or she is, but at the same time, we are the real component, we are part of the
economy of Lebanon, and we are the only ones who can't work can't be owner, own
any apartment or field or whatever. We can't express freely and be part of the
society like having, establishing an association, NGO or company or so... that was the
main challenge. And then the other main challenge is to have the trust of people,
because they have seen so many NGOs and associations and initiatives growing and
saying we are here with a solution and then nothing change, we didn't pretend to
change anything, we just wanted a more aware youth in the camps. To know your
rights, if you want to fight for something you have to be aware, what if Belfour, what
is 1948. What was the partage...
NP: Partition.
RS: partition plan, what were all the projects that were imposed on Palestinians but
Palestinians resisted like implementation of naturalization all these projects, we had
to know about them, we have to know about them if we want to continue to
something.
NP: Does your, I mean apart from working with Palestinian youth, are there
particular objectives that Ajyal has?
RS: A lot of exchange, we love breaking the obstacles in bridges and walls that we
had even with the Lebanese community. So a lot of our work was focused on
organizing meetings between Lebanese and Palestinians, even if it sometimes it
ended with fights, but it was healthy we needed to take out like the Palestinians in
the camp, what they think of all the Lebanese oppression on them and justice that
they live from their perspective. But we needed also to hear the Lebanese point of
view and what scared them from Palestinians so, that was a very important
exchange, we did it for years, with professionals, we didn't take the risk of doing t
alone because it could take somewhere opposite of what we wanted. So we had
some people, trainers who worked on reconciliation and how to listen to the other,
the opinion, the other opinion and how to deal with the debates and discussions. We
did it for few years until we had a very good base and group, then the young people
in Ajyal, also starting training others in the camp, so, but for us its very important to
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go out of our limits, sometimes, yes sometimes the circumstances like Lebanon or
Israel or whatever; but many times its also our own walls that we build around
ourselves because we are scared, because we don't know, because we judge
because our stresses because whatever. So, we had to break all these walls, and for
us exchanging with Lebanese, with other Palestinians, with Europeans was very
important, so that was one of the objectives also.
NP: did you experience any resistance or hostility because you were trying to break
down these walls and... I mean did it feel in anyway threatening to some people, no?
RS: Not really, I mean, people would be vigilant, or scared at the beginning...
NP: wary
RS: yes, wary or who are you? Why are you coming to talk about politics? Some
people when we wanted to rent to do our summer camps, some people would be
scared, why young Palestinians from different areas are meeting here? Like they
were... yeah, but I mean others were welcoming us and encouraging the initiative,
and I mean, other Lebanese accepting us in their region and even helping us,
supporting us, so... no, I wouldn't say that it was... it was hard, yes to do something
and to do it right, that was my main, our main risk was this, how to do it right? But
all these other things would have happened in any other country not because we are
Palestinians anyway.
NP: do you think that its getting harder for Palestinian youth in Lebanon?
RS: Yes, yes because when the PLO was there, there was a one dream, like
Palestinian organizations were different, right wing, left wing, whatever, but there
was only one objective, going back to Palestine, I think after Oslo, things started
going really down and bad, because one, the refugees felt that they were not at all
part of this negotiation and agreement, and 20 years after everything proved this.
Second, the Palestinian authority marginalized or put beside the PLO, which
represented all Palestinians everywhere, now the Palestinian authority represents
Palestinians in West Bank, Ramallah and few cities that's it,. OS, its not us anymore,
we are not represented in any, any decision, we don't see the light anymore
somewhere. We don't even have this social... a kind of control, because I mean the
PLO did many mistakes in Lebanon whatever, but there was something very
important. They saved the Palestinian society from all the decadence, from drugs
from stealing from prostitution, because they were there, saying the revolution, the
revolution, this is the main thing, we shouldn't allow ourselves to go, to become
cheap in a way. I am not saying that prostitutes are cheap at all, but I am saying, we
have to maintain a kind of solid and strong and educated society. We don't have this
anymore, and when you see the kids now, I cant convince my little brother, I
couldn't convince my little brother to go to the university, because he saw us
graduated and not having... my sister in an engineer, biomedical engineer, she
couldn't find work in Lebanon after years of studying in Germany, because she is
Palestinian, or she was paid 300 dollars when a technician Lebanese after two years
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was paid 1500 dollars. So, this injustice didn't and doesn't encourage young people
to continue... Palestinians, I mean they have a reputation to be the most diploma
and educated people in the Arab countries, we are loosing this because there is no
hope anymore, they don't believe in anything anymore. Yung people are just
standing in the streets, if they are lucky they would follow a small leader in the
camp, you know who is trying to do the police. Or following the mosque Shiekh who
is saying we free Palestine for an Islamic state, which is not Palestine, both are not
Palestinian people, both do not represent us, this is really like when you give up,
when you have no hope, you easily go towards religion or toward wanting to be the
bad boy or bad girl in the camps and its sad, it is sad. It is becoming worst because
our society is becoming worse, is becoming more fragile, and exposed to much more
risks, social diseases if you can say that, so it is very bad, very bad. Before, we had
war we had occupation, we were really hated, now we are much more integrated,
now I can walk down the street without being scared that my accent would scare
anyone, or I wouldn't be killed now, because my card id blue as Palestinian, but its
worse, that there is nothing. Who am I? a Palestinian, yes, and what? Who is talking
about Palestine today, we are talking about Arab revolutions, everybody forgot
about Palestine, about Gaza, about West Bank, everyday, there are more and more
settlements, since Oslo, it is even worst than before Oslo. Who is mentioning this?
Everyday the Israelis they are going into houses taking kids putting them in jail,
stealing lands and breaking and destroying trees and houses and us in the camps.
Who is talking about us in the camps? No one, not even the Palestinian leaders, who
are our Palestinian leaders anyway? No more Palestinian leaders, we are all either
killed or they finished their life or what they could do and they died and they... no
leadership. This is the sad thing. No hope.
NP: were you part, were you... not part of, I mean, did you hear about the...
TAPE 2
NP:... initiative I think, is it... forgotten the name, the woman who works in Oxford
university, and she had this idea to reinvigorate the PMA.
RS: Karma?
NP: Yeah, Karma Nabulsi, yeah. She visited the Palestinians...
RS: Yeah, many of my friends and people I know here, were into this, and I was a
little bit, but then I travelled, I left Lebanon, and couldn't follow, but this is definitely
great initiative, we all should be part of. We have to impose our voice in this national
council, we can't allow that things are decided and going to hell, I mean without us
trying to save anything. So, yeah, it's a very important initiative. I think it's a bit early
to talk about it because it is still not really taken real shape but this would, I think
this is, this would be fought a lot by the PA, the Palestinian Authority, by many
people around. Like if we wanted to do our own elections in the camps, yeah. Jordan
wouldn't allow Palestinians in Jordan to do elections; do they do in Jordan anyway
for Jordanians? Lebanese wouldn't allow us to do, organize elections in the camps,
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or outside the camps, Syria would have been the same, Egypt would be the same.
So, we would be facing many, many obstacles but for us, who believe in this, the
new representation in the Palestinian national council, this is... our fight should be
focused on that. This is where we have to move things on a Palestinian level, and say
now, stop, no one has the right to ta on our name, sell our lands, sell our souls, give
up refugees, and gave up cities, and give up rights in our name, without us being
asked, you know. So this is the major and the main thing we have to fight for, and
then its our mistake if we don't know who to represent and how to represent and
how to deal with this new responsibility, we have to, we have to do it, yeah.
NP: do you think there could be another Palestinian uprising? Or like a Palestinian
spring, where...
RS: it would be unfair to say there would be a Palestinian spring, Palestinian is a
whole, I mean the four seasons sense, 48. They, for me they really started
revolutions and they didn't need Internet of Facebook or whatever Social Media that
is trendy today to do so. I would dream of a new Intifada, I dream of a new Intifada,
and I believe personally that this intifada wouldn't be from West Bank or Gaza, that's
over. I think this would come from the Palestinians of 48. So, what you call Arab
Israel. And I think this would be a great hit, a great, would have a great impact on
the Israeli society, for us, for them it would be a disaster, like we gave them
nationality, we are treating them good, and now they are not taking, I mean doing
Intifada against us, I think they don't realize that this is still an occupation and these
people were forced to have this nationality and they don't have the same rights
anyway to stay in their lands. I believe there is a third Intifada, I think its in 48, or
from Palestinians of 48, with the help of others definitely. But the West Bank is kind
of Comma, provokated, do you say that?
NP: provoked.
RS: provoked, by the Palestinian Authority itself, with now being the police actually
of Israel in the West Bank. In Gaza, I don't believe in Hamas, they proved that they
are as corrupt as Fateh, anyway, so what is new there? I mean, I don't trust them
politically, socially I don't agree with them ideologically, so... I don't think Gaza and
West Bank can give anymore. They are exhausted to be honest also, not to judge
them too badly. They are exhausted, they have been fighting and doing Intifada and
resisting everyday since 48 and so we cant also them more than that also. And this is
what is frustrating for us refugees outside, how can we? What can we do? How can
we do? It we do a revolution in Lebanon, would be against who? Lebanese, or the
Palestinian Authority Embassy? Or the UNRWA? Or the army around the camp
treating us like criminals? Or against who? Its frustrating. I don't want to give you
like an image, a dark image but it is a hard feeling and we resist everyday, because I
refuse to give up and say, well, that's it, there is nothing to do, so we kind of have to
wait a natural catastrophe, disaster. We have to believe, we have to believe because
otherwise nothing would happen, and we have to continue trying and trying. Even if
many people say this is nothing, what you are doing is nothing. We have to continue.
It's a process of learning for us also how to deal with... sometimes, its also wise not
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to do, but listen and not to do, and learn more and more on how to deal, and how to
fight without weapons maybe, just to fight to know your rights better and know how
to deal with them to fight better with the law, with the... you know. Things are
changing in the whole world, and I am sure this will touch us also, as Palestinians.
Things can't continue this way, its too much injustice in the whole world, I mean,
something is really wrong, you know. I mea, Israel is so unjust...
NP: Unfair.
RS: unfair, so illogic, and so against nature, it cant continue. As if you are having an
object that is not natural object in your body it will end up by rejecting it, it will go, it
can't... and they are killing, I believe that the Israeli society will implode anyway with
or without us, because they are having lots of internal problems, social economical
problems, that they are hiding with all the wars and the Arabs want to eat us, so we
have to stay together, the day there would be peace around them they will kill each
other, because its such a cast system inside, its just destroyed society, paranoiac and
you cant live scared from every single shadow around you. Its just crazy.
NP: is there anything in particular that you are working on at the moment with
Ajyal?
RS: I am not a lot with Ajyal, now, I am very busy with my own job, and I feel there is
new blood coming to Ajyal so they are taking after, so I cant deal with that I have
two kids and work and a house, so I cant really give more time, but what I do, I am
more focused on the exchange with France, since this is my fields, in France. Because
when I was studying in France I also created annex to Ajyal here to fund raise and to
help spread the words and talking about Palestinian refugees so, we organized some
exchange with the association in Brittany, France, So, like last month I took a theatre
group from Ein El Hilweh camp to Brittany, to talk about Palestinian problem and
refugees in particular but through theater and shadow and contemporary dance.
This is now how I can help. Organizing things like that.
NP: and it must cost you a lot of money to take over a theatre company, is that...
RS: we had funds from the partners we find in France.
NP: Okay.
RS: We don't have the money for that.
NP: Sorry! Is there anything I haven't asked you that you think is important?
RS: No, nothing I think, it depends, if its anything, anything related to this you
wanted to ask.
NP: well, you have covered quiet a lot of these events, I mean you covered events in
each era if you like, unless there is something you...
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RS: its funny, when I read those actually, I have images for each title.
NP: Oh really, what are the titles for the images you have?
RS: this one I was not born definitely in 67. But I was there when Jamal Abdel
Nasser... when Anwar El Sadat passed away, When Jamal Abdel Nasser passed I
wasn't born. When Anwar El Sadat passed away, I could see my grandmother, being
so happy, but forbidding us to do this... she said we never do this for someone who
die. But she was very happy, because this guy destroyed all the good things that
Jamal Abdel Nasser have done, to the Arab nation, and this guy dealt with Israel, so
for us it was... so I can see that in the camp, and how people were happy about it but
forbidden themselves to express it. Yeah, then the Israeli invasion, it was then. But
here, this is the year where I arrived to France.
NP: 1991.
RS: I arrived actually end of ... between 98 and 90, and then Iraq war started few
months later, and I was learning French in a small town called Vichy, there was a
huge language center there called CAVILAM, and few months later I had to go every
week to the police station to be interrogated, and I had to be followed by two
detectives or policemen or whatever, because they were scared for the security of
the Jews who lived in Vichy, from me the Palestinian, because of what was
happening, and Iraq was threatening Israel to bomb it with whatever, so people
were scared of Palestinians in Vichy, that was funny, because Vichy were the French
people massacred Jews, and they were scared of me the Palestinian who has nothing
to do with all this, and I was followed for like months because I was Palestinian, it
was funny. Yeah, 9/11, I can remember this, I was a fixer in, I used to be a fixer with
a friend who had a small company to help journalists, etc. and I used to go to South
Lebanon, or to refugee camps, because that's where a French Journalist or a
Francophone Journalist, there was this Swiss guy, from Swiss TV, that came in 9/11,
he absolutely wanted to meet Palestinians who are happy that Americans died in the
scoop. So I took him to the Refugee camp, and he was very disappointed, everyone
said that this is not Islam, poor people, and we know what it means to be unfairly
killed, so we cant be happy for that, so he was so upset that he decided he want to
shoot a butcher...
NP: A Butcher, yeah...
RS: a Bucher, he was beard and had this knife, and he was asking the camera man, I
want you take a zoom on this, and I had to fight with this guy saying, you do not
realize that what you are doing, could... I mean, my camp could be bombed, or this
area can be bombed, because of a stupid journalist like you who wants a scoop. And
its not even true,. You know how... and that was the first time I realized how much
the news could be fake and... Okay. And this... lot of happiness, and tears of
happiness, when Tunisia and Egypt started and lots of sadness with how things are
going now, and manly Syria, Syria is a pain for me, I feel like I didn't live the Nakba, I
11


didn't live in 48, but I am living it now in Syria. I feel deeply sad, and extremely angry
about the world and the humanity extremely.
NP: That's it, thank you! Thank you very much!
RS: thank you!
12

Interview with Racha Salah
2013

TAPE 1

Nicola Pratt: Can I begin by asking you when and where you were born?

Rasha Salah: I was 1973, in the refugee cam, Ein El Hilweh, South Lebanon, Sayda.

NP: Did you grow up there?

RS: Yes, in a way, at least for my 7th year, I was still in Ein El Hilweh, after that my parents had to move form the camps because they were targeted as political responsible, politicians so they had to move from the camps and we started moving on. But I mean my connection with the Refugee camp remained until I left to study university in France, so I was going every summer, I continued to go.

NP: what did your parents do?

RS: My two parents were in the PLFP, more like leftist side of the political Palestinian organizations, PLO, so they had different responsibilities, but they were both politically engaged and committed.

NP: What was the first sort of event, or political event or event outside of the house that you remember growing up?

RS: the Israeli, the Israeli invasion, I think this is what shocked me most, I don’t know if this is the word, but this is the thing that really changed suddenly in my life, from my very happ childhood in Ein El Hilweh, I mean I was born in a refugee camp but I was very happy child, we were very happy children, we had lots of love, and lots of faith, that Palestine was coming back, so as kids we didn’t think about this thing from a political point of view, but just having all those people living very close to each other was kind of fun. We all lived very close, when we came to Beirut, people live far from each other and they don’t talk a lot, so we had this… lucky to be in Ein El Hilweh. Suddenly the Israeli invasion came and the camp of Ein El Hilweh at least was, 90% at least, destroyed, so almost nothing left, the bombs noise and sound and people shouting, crying and destruction of houses, blood, dead people in the street, and no one daring to go and take them out because might be shot by a sniper or something, I mean those images were suddenly all there, like a nightmare, but we didn’t wake up really from the nightmare, it was true, and real, and that was very… out yeah.

NP: and so, then you would have been still young?

RS: Yes, I was 9 years.

NP: 9!

RS: Then we moved to Beirut, my grandparents stayed in the camp but, my parents took us from Ein el Hilweh where I used to live with my little brother and sister, and my grandmother, so they moved us to Beirut, and then we had the invasion from the Beirut perspective, we lived it in Beirut also, we had to run from one house to another, the bombing, the boats, the… so it was also another, another experience, it wasn’t concentrated in a small place like the camp, it was bigger, we didn’t really see the people but all the bombing, all the risks we have to take each time you go out, no water, no electricity for sure, but yeah the scariness, I don’t know if I would ever be scared as that time in my life. The bombing, not knowing where the bomb will come, in Beirut it was more scary than Ein El Hilweh, although bigger, but in Ein El Hilweh, we were all gathered together under the ground in the… what you call it.

NP: Bunker, yeah.

RS: Bunker, so its like if you all die together its like one bomb, and its done, in Beirut it felt it was more scary to die in the city and not know where you are exactly, its not the same thing. But yeah, that was 82, my first…

NP: and did you continue your schooling in Beirut?

RS: Yeah, Beirut, then… well we moved a lot, then Syria and came back to Lebanon to Beqaa, and after the Beqaa the Chouf, and then back to Beirut, then I left to France for university. Yeah, its, we moved a lot and in Beirut we moved at least 4 or 5 times, so. Yeah, my with parents situation and all the bombing everywhere, we’ve been, there was something dangerous, or risk or for security we had to leave so, and sometimes because politically my parents were not allowed to be in a place anymore, kicked out of the place, so… so we moved again and again. Made me lots of friends.

NP: what did you study in France?

RS: I was very lucky to have university scholarship, so, I studied… I wanted to go study theater to be honest, and then apparently, the scholarship does not cover this kind of study because it is not enough hours, history of art and theater so I had to choose something else. So I did something that is called, social and cultural animation, kind of cultural management, and then I continued my masters in Anthropology.

NP: Also in France?

RS: In France yeah.

NP: and when you were at university, were you involved in any student societies or any sort of activities?

RS: Not at all, it took me a while in France to feel that I want to be engaged in anything, not only concerning France, but even Palestine, I needed really to digest all what I lived back home in… I was not politically engaged, probably a reaction for my parents life, so I didn’t want this kind of life, but slowly I had to face people who knew nothing about refugees, Palestinian refugees, about Palestine, so much unfairness so much stupid things said about Arabs, about Palestinians, about… so it was irritating me and I was boiling slowly and then I ended up by being, yeah… activist for Palestine manly, so, I tried to do something in my way, so wrote a book about Palestinian exile through my family, which is my tribe, because my father is Bedouin, so through the family in the Bedouin origin we have… and how they moved from Palestine to Lebanon, and how we grew up in the camp and all this through the women that impressed me in my life, my grandmother, my mother, aunts, so… that was my way to do that, now if I read the book, it’s a bit naive but that was y way to say I want to do something for Palestine and my people.

NP: that’s okay. And then when you returned to Lebanon after you finished your university, what did you do?

RS: I did my internship in the UNRWA, in the French department, they were starting the French schools in the camps, so I was there in this department, so then I went finishing my university and came back and I had the opportunity to work with the… a project between UNDP and the ministry of the displaced in Lebanon, working about, trying to bring back the Christians of the mountains, of the Chouf back, so trying to put in place some projects that would interest the youth, and people to go back, agriculturally or industrially, I mean trying to find out which kind of projects could attract this population to come back, after a kind of peace have been done and reconciliation between Druze and Christians, so, I was responsible of the youth department, which was a nice experience, but made me hate any UN thing for ever. Because they are just paying us money to do projects and I don’t think they really, I don’t think they really care if these projects are implemented or not, just like, you present a project and you get paid for that, good, do again, and more and more. And then its not implemented or not correctly implemented or we don’t give enough, I mean the UN don’t give enough importance of implementing all of this, and its already the experience I had with the UNRWA, and well, my story with the UN started with 48, or abit before, when they recognized the state of Israel, or announced the state of Israel, and when they do not do anything to push Israel to apply the resolution that they signed as a condition of the creation of Israel, which is 159, this is 191, this is a resolution that has been signed, as condition to the creation of Israel and its not respected, nothing, no pressure is done against Israel, I already have an ideological problem with the UN so, I am not going to defend it, it was a good experience professionally, and then I moved to teaching, and then I went back to France and came back here, and then I worked with a Canadian international NGO called the right to play and now with Arab fund for arts and culture.

NP: so, how did you make the transition from working in UN projects, sounds like developmental projects to working in international Organization, Canadian organization through working in arts and culture, how… how…

RS: Well, there is worse, I went back to France between the UNDP displaced project and the right to play international, development through sports, I mean its all development sector, which is also my field, but the worse thing is that in France I really wanted to work and I was really very exhausted of all the… it was after 9/11, and I had enough of all the politics, Arabs, Israel, America, all these clichés about the people and the things, and I wanted to change completely the field and I worked for the train company, and for Total company. Ideologically it was completely the opposite of what I think of the world and how we are using the richness of Africans and whatever, but at that time I really needed to take this distance with my region and what’s happening, I really needed that, psychologically I needed to recharge my battery with something else, at least Total company never pretended being any social or humanitarian development thing, its industrial and they are just taking money where they can find it and that’s it. Well, I have this problem with all the NGOs and the United Nations thing, and they are pretending, pretending but they are just destroying more and more people in the region I live in, so it was also a funny experience, then came back because it is also in the development, the right to play was NGO, so it is still in my field anyway, and then yeah, foundation, I mean I had some experience after that in management so my position was about management, then I started to be interested in the fields of arts and culture, and digging a bit more, not to be only a manager of grants but also initiate some events or things.

NP: and through these different jobs that you’ve done, those different types of positions that you’ve held, have you been able to link that to Palestine, and doing something for Palestinians?

RS: Not necessarily through my job, I wouldn’t mix things this way, because if we were working with Lebanese and Palestinian community I wouldn’t go and do just for Palestinians you know, or in AFAC the Arab foundation for arts and culture, I wouldn’t give grants only for Palestinians but parallel to this, I am also activist when I can, I cofounded with a group young Palestinians from different refugee camps, association called Ajyal, actually its official name is Social and Communication Center. But we call it Ajyal, which means generations in Arabic, and our main concern was that we wanted to understand politics. Our cause whether we wanted to not, whether people like that or not, it is political, its not religious, its not humanitarian its not social, it is political. If we ignore this part of the problem, we would not learn how to ask for our rights, and this is what happened in Oslo, for me, when Arafat goes to the negotiations with no specialist with anything, not even International law, not even in urbanism, not even, and he gives, gives, and the other side has tons of specialists in every field to negotiate it and to discuss it, so this is a shame for me, for us, this is… that was the start, we should absolutely do something, young friends of mine and me, we had to do something, then we created Ajyal, because we wanted to make more awareness, more political awareness about the cause.

NP: did you feel that Ajyal could do something other than other political factions or groups? did you feel that Ajyal could do something that other groups in Lebanon were not doing or were not able to do?

RS: at least what the group, what we felt at that time, it was in 1998 or 7. What we felt at that time, we had enough NGOs working with women, embroidery, with kids, they are dirty on the streets they would give… we teach them how to play in peace, we teach them how to draw how to sing, and distribute some cloths and this was humiliating for us I mean this exists in our societies, majority of our kids and young people, and women who need to first work and help their husbands who often don’t have work, second maintain this tradition of embroidery, but this is not the only parts of society. We have all the young people between 15 and 35, 40. No one is taken care of, nothing happens, no one takes care of them; they take care of them when they are kids until they are 15, then girls go to embroidery and boys are on the streets. So, we thought this is really, this is destroying our society, becoming like assistance, dependent on NGOs and international help and UNRWA and PLO Organizations and this is destroying our societies, so what we needed to do is not an NGO, is not a social space where, we are giving humanitarian aide, we wanted really the kind of movement of people who are there to discuss politic, and whatever project can help in that, like doing summer camps, meeting with young Europeans, yearly we do like summer camps with European young people to discuss our different problems, because we have these problems, in Europe they have other problems. So, from one side we wanted to tell these people don’t immigrate [inaudible: 18:13]… like in an illegal way, second, tell them if you really want to go to Europe just be aware that there are other issues and problems in Europe, they are suffering themselves from social economical problems and issues. So, it was important for us that those young people in the camp, we were working with, be aware of what is happening in the world, we shouldn’t be closed in our own problems, Israel and Arabs, or Palestinian problem, and not see what is happening, because all is related, justice is related in the world. So this is one part and the second part, we have enough people who are shy to say, to name things, we didn’t want to pretend to do culture to hide a political thing, or whatever, we would do culture if this would make us laugh while we are meeting and talking about Palestine and politics and real issues. We wanted to meet people from Ramallah, from Gaza, from 48, from Jordan, from Syria, and we organized summer camps with all these young people coming from different refugee camps or cities from Palestine, and discuss as Palestinian youth what shall we do, what can we do, how can we at least communicate, how can we at least know what each group of Palestinians is living and what is her or his situation in each country. So that was for me, yeah, that was not done before Ajyal, at least what I have seen in Lebanon.

NP: Is Ajyal still active until now?

RS: yeah, and working the same way. Refusing to have any project even if it is bringing lots of money, like, now people are saying take money, work with refugees, the Palestinian refugees coming from Syria because Syria is very trendy now, and we say, no, its not our ting, we not going to have money just to have money and say we did this and that. We need projects that fit our capacity before anything, and credibility, our honesty with ourselves; we are not a social and humanitarian association.

NP: What were some of the challenges that you faced in creating this organization and keeping it going?

RS: the first one as Palestinians, we cant establish an association, so we had to ask some Lebanese friends to do so, which they did, they kindly did. But this is one of the things, like makes you, this is one of the things that we had to start with talking with the young people. We don’t even have the right to have an association, we are born here, I am the third generation in Lebanon, I participate in the economy of this country, and every other immigrant or non Lebanese living in Lebanon send their money to their country, which is fair enough, every immigrant does this wherever he or she is, but at the same time, we are the real component, we are part of the economy of Lebanon, and we are the only ones who can’t work can’t be owner, own any apartment or field or whatever. We can’t express freely and be part of the society like having, establishing an association, NGO or company or so… that was the main challenge. And then the other main challenge is to have the trust of people, because they have seen so many NGOs and associations and initiatives growing and saying we are here with a solution and then nothing change, we didn’t pretend to change anything, we just wanted a more aware youth in the camps. To know your rights, if you want to fight for something you have to be aware, what if Belfour, what is 1948. What was the partage…
NP: Partition.

RS: partition plan, what were all the projects that were imposed on Palestinians but Palestinians resisted like implementation of naturalization all these projects, we had to know about them, we have to know about them if we want to continue to something.

NP: Does your, I mean apart from working with Palestinian youth, are there particular objectives that Ajyal has?

RS: A lot of exchange, we love breaking the obstacles in bridges and walls that we had even with the Lebanese community. So a lot of our work was focused on organizing meetings between Lebanese and Palestinians, even if it sometimes it ended with fights, but it was healthy we needed to take out like the Palestinians in the camp, what they think of all the Lebanese oppression on them and justice that they live from their perspective. But we needed also to hear the Lebanese point of view and what scared them from Palestinians so, that was a very important exchange, we did it for years, with professionals, we didn’t take the risk of doing t alone because it could take somewhere opposite of what we wanted. So we had some people, trainers who worked on reconciliation and how to listen to the other, the opinion, the other opinion and how to deal with the debates and discussions. We did it for few years until we had a very good base and group, then the young people in Ajyal, also starting training others in the camp, so, but for us its very important to go out of our limits, sometimes, yes sometimes the circumstances like Lebanon or Israel or whatever; but many times its also our own walls that we build around ourselves because we are scared, because we don’t know, because we judge because our stresses because whatever. So, we had to break all these walls, and for us exchanging with Lebanese, with other Palestinians, with Europeans was very important, so that was one of the objectives also.

NP: did you experience any resistance or hostility because you were trying to break down these walls and… I mean did it feel in anyway threatening to some people, no?

RS: Not really, I mean, people would be vigilant, or scared at the beginning…

NP: wary

RS: yes, wary or who are you? Why are you coming to talk about politics? Some people when we wanted to rent to do our summer camps, some people would be scared, why young Palestinians from different areas are meeting here? Like they were… yeah, but I mean others were welcoming us and encouraging the initiative, and I mean, other Lebanese accepting us in their region and even helping us, supporting us, so… no, I wouldn’t say that it was… it was hard, yes to do something and to do it right, that was my main, our main risk was this, how to do it right? But all these other things would have happened in any other country not because we are Palestinians anyway.

NP: do you think that its getting harder for Palestinian youth in Lebanon?

RS: Yes, yes because when the PLO was there, there was a one dream, like Palestinian organizations were different, right wing, left wing, whatever, but there was only one objective, going back to Palestine, I think after Oslo, things started going really down and bad, because one, the refugees felt that they were not at all part of this negotiation and agreement, and 20 years after everything proved this. Second, the Palestinian authority marginalized or put beside the PLO, which represented all Palestinians everywhere, now the Palestinian authority represents Palestinians in West Bank, Ramallah and few cities that’s it,. OS, its not us anymore, we are not represented in any, any decision, we don’t see the light anymore somewhere. We don’t even have this social… a kind of control, because I mean the PLO did many mistakes in Lebanon whatever, but there was something very important. They saved the Palestinian society from all the decadence, from drugs from stealing from prostitution, because they were there, saying the revolution, the revolution, this is the main thing, we shouldn’t allow ourselves to go, to become cheap in a way. I am not saying that prostitutes are cheap at all, but I am saying, we have to maintain a kind of solid and strong and educated society. We don’t have this anymore, and when you see the kids now, I cant convince my little brother, I couldn’t convince my little brother to go to the university, because he saw us graduated and not having… my sister in an engineer, biomedical engineer, she couldn’t find work in Lebanon after years of studying in Germany, because she is Palestinian, or she was paid 300 dollars when a technician Lebanese after two years was paid 1500 dollars. So, this injustice didn’t and doesn’t encourage young people to continue… Palestinians, I mean they have a reputation to be the most diploma and educated people in the Arab countries, we are loosing this because there is no hope anymore, they don’t believe in anything anymore. Yung people are just standing in the streets, if they are lucky they would follow a small leader in the camp, you know who is trying to do the police. Or following the mosque Shiekh who is saying we free Palestine for an Islamic state, which is not Palestine, both are not Palestinian people, both do not represent us, this is really like when you give up, when you have no hope, you easily go towards religion or toward wanting to be the bad boy or bad girl in the camps and its sad, it is sad. It is becoming worst because our society is becoming worse, is becoming more fragile, and exposed to much more risks, social diseases if you can say that, so it is very bad, very bad. Before, we had war we had occupation, we were really hated, now we are much more integrated, now I can walk down the street without being scared that my accent would scare anyone, or I wouldn’t be killed now, because my card id blue as Palestinian, but its worse, that there is nothing. Who am I? a Palestinian, yes, and what? Who is talking about Palestine today, we are talking about Arab revolutions, everybody forgot about Palestine, about Gaza, about West Bank, everyday, there are more and more settlements, since Oslo, it is even worst than before Oslo. Who is mentioning this? Everyday the Israelis they are going into houses taking kids putting them in jail, stealing lands and breaking and destroying trees and houses and us in the camps. Who is talking about us in the camps? No one, not even the Palestinian leaders, who are our Palestinian leaders anyway? No more Palestinian leaders, we are all either killed or they finished their life or what they could do and they died and they… no leadership. This is the sad thing. No hope.

NP: were you part, were you… not part of, I mean, did you hear about the…

TAPE 2

NP:… initiative I think, is it… forgotten the name, the woman who works in Oxford university, and she had this idea to reinvigorate the PMA.

RS: Karma?

NP: Yeah, Karma Nabulsi, yeah. She visited the Palestinians…

RS: Yeah, many of my friends and people I know here, were into this, and I was a little bit, but then I travelled, I left Lebanon, and couldn’t follow, but this is definitely great initiative, we all should be part of. We have to impose our voice in this national council, we can’t allow that things are decided and going to hell, I mean without us trying to save anything. So, yeah, it’s a very important initiative. I think it’s a bit early to talk about it because it is still not really taken real shape but this would, I think this is, this would be fought a lot by the PA, the Palestinian Authority, by many people around. Like if we wanted to do our own elections in the camps, yeah. Jordan wouldn’t allow Palestinians in Jordan to do elections; do they do in Jordan anyway for Jordanians? Lebanese wouldn’t allow us to do, organize elections in the camps, or outside the camps, Syria would have been the same, Egypt would be the same. So, we would be facing many, many obstacles but for us, who believe in this, the new representation in the Palestinian national council, this is… our fight should be focused on that. This is where we have to move things on a Palestinian level, and say now, stop, no one has the right to ta on our name, sell our lands, sell our souls, give up refugees, and gave up cities, and give up rights in our name, without us being asked, you know. So this is the major and the main thing we have to fight for, and then its our mistake if we don’t know who to represent and how to represent and how to deal with this new responsibility, we have to, we have to do it, yeah.

NP: do you think there could be another Palestinian uprising? Or like a Palestinian spring, where…

RS: it would be unfair to say there would be a Palestinian spring, Palestinian is a whole, I mean the four seasons sense, 48. They, for me they really started revolutions and they didn’t need Internet of Facebook or whatever Social Media that is trendy today to do so. I would dream of a new Intifada, I dream of a new Intifada, and I believe personally that this intifada wouldn’t be from West Bank or Gaza, that’s over. I think this would come from the Palestinians of 48. So, what you call Arab Israel. And I think this would be a great hit, a great, would have a great impact on the Israeli society, for us, for them it would be a disaster, like we gave them nationality, we are treating them good, and now they are not taking, I mean doing Intifada against us, I think they don’t realize that this is still an occupation and these people were forced to have this nationality and they don’t have the same rights anyway to stay in their lands. I believe there is a third Intifada, I think its in 48, or from Palestinians of 48, with the help of others definitely. But the West Bank is kind of Comma, provokated, do you say that?

NP: provoked.

RS: provoked, by the Palestinian Authority itself, with now being the police actually of Israel in the West Bank. In Gaza, I don’t believe in Hamas, they proved that they are as corrupt as Fateh, anyway, so what is new there? I mean, I don’t trust them politically, socially I don’t agree with them ideologically, so… I don’t think Gaza and West Bank can give anymore. They are exhausted to be honest also, not to judge them too badly. They are exhausted, they have been fighting and doing Intifada and resisting everyday since 48 and so we cant also them more than that also. And this is what is frustrating for us refugees outside, how can we? What can we do? How can we do? It we do a revolution in Lebanon, would be against who? Lebanese, or the Palestinian Authority Embassy? Or the UNRWA? Or the army around the camp treating us like criminals? Or against who? Its frustrating. I don’t want to give you like an image, a dark image but it is a hard feeling and we resist everyday, because I refuse to give up and say, well, that’s it, there is nothing to do, so we kind of have to wait a natural catastrophe, disaster. We have to believe, we have to believe because otherwise nothing would happen, and we have to continue trying and trying. Even if many people say this is nothing, what you are doing is nothing. We have to continue. It’s a process of learning for us also how to deal with… sometimes, its also wise not to do, but listen and not to do, and learn more and more on how to deal, and how to fight without weapons maybe, just to fight to know your rights better and know how to deal with them to fight better with the law, with the… you know. Things are changing in the whole world, and I am sure this will touch us also, as Palestinians. Things can’t continue this way, its too much injustice in the whole world, I mean, something is really wrong, you know. I mea, Israel is so unjust…

NP: Unfair.

RS: unfair, so illogic, and so against nature, it cant continue. As if you are having an object that is not natural object in your body it will end up by rejecting it, it will go, it can’t… and they are killing, I believe that the Israeli society will implode anyway with or without us, because they are having lots of internal problems, social economical problems, that they are hiding with all the wars and the Arabs want to eat us, so we have to stay together, the day there would be peace around them they will kill each other, because its such a cast system inside, its just destroyed society, paranoiac and you cant live scared from every single shadow around you. Its just crazy.

NP: is there anything in particular that you are working on at the moment with Ajyal?

RS: I am not a lot with Ajyal, now, I am very busy with my own job, and I feel there is new blood coming to Ajyal so they are taking after, so I cant deal with that I have two kids and work and a house, so I cant really give more time, but what I do, I am more focused on the exchange with France, since this is my fields, in France. Because when I was studying in France I also created annex to Ajyal here to fund raise and to help spread the words and talking about Palestinian refugees so, we organized some exchange with the association in Brittany, France, So, like last month I took a theatre group from Ein El Hilweh camp to Brittany, to talk about Palestinian problem and refugees in particular but through theater and shadow and contemporary dance. This is now how I can help. Organizing things like that.

NP: and it must cost you a lot of money to take over a theatre company, is that…

RS: we had funds from the partners we find in France.

NP: Okay.

RS: We don’t have the money for that.

NP: Sorry! Is there anything I haven’t asked you that you think is important?

RS: No, nothing I think, it depends, if its anything, anything related to this you wanted to ask.

NP: well, you have covered quiet a lot of these events, I mean you covered events in each era if you like, unless there is something you…

RS: its funny, when I read those actually, I have images for each title.

NP: Oh really, what are the titles for the images you have?

RS: this one I was not born definitely in 67. But I was there when Jamal Abdel Nasser… when Anwar El Sadat passed away, When Jamal Abdel Nasser passed I wasn’t born. When Anwar El Sadat passed away, I could see my grandmother, being so happy, but forbidding us to do this… she said we never do this for someone who die. But she was very happy, because this guy destroyed all the good things that Jamal Abdel Nasser have done, to the Arab nation, and this guy dealt with Israel, so for us it was… so I can see that in the camp, and how people were happy about it but forbidden themselves to express it. Yeah, then the Israeli invasion, it was then. But here, this is the year where I arrived to France.

NP: 1991.

RS: I arrived actually end of … between 98 and 90, and then Iraq war started few months later, and I was learning French in a small town called Vichy, there was a huge language center there called CAVILAM, and few months later I had to go every week to the police station to be interrogated, and I had to be followed by two detectives or policemen or whatever, because they were scared for the security of the Jews who lived in Vichy, from me the Palestinian, because of what was happening, and Iraq was threatening Israel to bomb it with whatever, so people were scared of Palestinians in Vichy, that was funny, because Vichy were the French people massacred Jews, and they were scared of me the Palestinian who has nothing to do with all this, and I was followed for like months because I was Palestinian, it was funny. Yeah, 9/11, I can remember this, I was a fixer in, I used to be a fixer with a friend who had a small company to help journalists, etc. and I used to go to South Lebanon, or to refugee camps, because that’s where a French Journalist or a Francophone Journalist, there was this Swiss guy, from Swiss TV, that came in 9/11, he absolutely wanted to meet Palestinians who are happy that Americans died in the scoop. So I took him to the Refugee camp, and he was very disappointed, everyone said that this is not Islam, poor people, and we know what it means to be unfairly killed, so we cant be happy for that, so he was so upset that he decided he want to shoot a butcher…

NP: A Butcher, yeah…

RS: a Bucher, he was beard and had this knife, and he was asking the camera man, I want you take a zoom on this, and I had to fight with this guy saying, you do not realize that what you are doing, could… I mean, my camp could be bombed, or this area can be bombed, because of a stupid journalist like you who wants a scoop. And its not even true,. You know how… and that was the first time I realized how much the news could be fake and… Okay. And this… lot of happiness, and tears of happiness, when Tunisia and Egypt started and lots of sadness with how things are going now, and manly Syria, Syria is a pain for me, I feel like I didn’t live the Nakba, I didn’t live in 48, but I am living it now in Syria. I feel deeply sad, and extremely angry about the world and the humanity extremely.

NP: That’s it, thank you! Thank you very much!

RS: thank you!



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