Interview with Lamis Nasser

CVU0000072.docx

CVU0000072.mp3

CVU0000072.ogg

CVU0000072.pdf

CVU0000072.wav

Interview with Lamis Nasser
2014
TAPE 1
Nicola Pratt: Okay, I hope this won't bother you, to put it here.
Lamis Nasser: No, not at all. Well, currently I am more involved with the NGOs, I had
an NGO called the Human Forum for Women's Rights, its about women's issues,
especially discrimination and violence, and also in my own right I am a researcher
and a consultant, also on human rights, women's rights, gender issues, and specially
SIDA, you know, the international conventions on the women and the children, the
convention on the rights of the child, and the international convention on the
illumination of discrimination against women, so, this is what I am mostly involved in
now. But actually I went to the AUB, American University if Beirut, I studied
psychology and education so I started my career as a teacher, but I was appointed
right away you know, so I dealt with bigger girls, I mean, not girls education, but you
know, the appoint women usually in the ministry of education because I was on a
scholarship, and I taught in the colleagues, the teachers colleagues, you know they
are called community colleges. It actually was, there were only two in Jordan so I
taught in both, one in Ajloun actually and one in Ramallah. So, I mean I began my
career as a teacher of psychology and education of course and in charge of the
supervisor of the teachers training, we appoint them to go to schools and... but then
I don't know, for one reason or another, maybe I always had allergy, although we
didn't use the board too much. They said that in teaching I always lost my voice, I
still do, well anyway, I was interested in the foreign ministry, so I sat for the exams
and I entered the foreign ministry as diplomat and I served in London, one of the...
Maybe it was an early post, no it will see, because when you are married and you
have children, sometimes you refuse the posts, but... and I did my masters much
later, so sometimes people say, "they said something about you", because I
graduated very early 1965, my BA, and my Masters I took here at the Jordan
University it was in 1995. So 30 years in between, and many people say how did you
remember... I said, because when you are in the foreign ministry, and it is not a very
academic atmosphere, everybody, sometimes, very few go abroad to stay 6 or 7
years, or in Germany or anywhere they seek doing their Doctorate degree, but very
few. Even myself, when I went to serve in London, I took all my certificates, but my
husband he is a medical doctor, a gynecologist, so it was first, because he met me
and everyone would say, it was in the 70s, how did you convince your husband to
come and join... I said no, it was good for him, because he wanted to... he had a
scholarship in Ireland for one year, like DG its called or something... but then he
went with me and then he left his other, and joined other hospitals because in
London they have to work in teaching hospitals and sit for exams and they get a
salary... even I finished my term before he finished his, coz it is really tough, so he is
graduate of London too. So this was highlight of my career but maybe I am mixing
between things but no problem. But I was the first married lady who gets a transfer,
because always, there are lots of girls in the foreign ministry and usually when you
1


are married, people think you are not getting a transfer because you will not carry
your husband with you, wherever you go, or your family. I went to the foreign
ministry in 69 actually and this was the London era, or period, it was from 73 until 78
something like 5 years, but then, this is something I always mention when you are
following the women's growth and... because and I don't know why I stopped...
because I served in the foreign ministry 17 years, so maybe, I stop there, and maybe
later we come to other things. Because when I got the transfer it was my turn and
everything and I was one of the good ones, a very good English I knew some French,
because when you enter they make exam you submit to the British Council, and the
French Center, but they send it very weak wen translating to French, but very strong
because my Arabic is good, it is very good from the other way around. But I
managed, and it was amazing that this knowledge I always get, people from other
ministries to send, please what this telegram say, you know, I use the dictionary and
I manage, but now when I look back I say, they are courageous and I am courageous,
because I am not that strong, but the people were few, but now there are many
people who know French in the foreign ministry. So, they faced a problem in the
ministry, I remember they told me the administration, they said because this is the
first time a married lady, of course I got into the ministry when I was not married,
then I got married and I had a baby while... then. So, they said because we don't
know how to give you all the benefits, because it is always said the wife gets this and
this, the diplomat is always a man, and maybe according to the diplomatic charter
we have to give you everything because you are the diplomat but according to
Shariaa, or we discussed this with Awqaf Ministry (religious affairs) imagine, 1973.
We discussed this with Awqaf ministry, they said legally they deserve all this, but
religiously or Shariaa wise we cant give her husband, I mean, he can't benefit from
her to take air tickets, like usually we have benefits like air ticket, like we have
benefits for the child or husband or partner, whatever. But I was happy that we were
able to transfer, I mean I didn't mind... sometimes, we should have fought for it
maybe, because now it has changed, so this, and they said, we are very sorry
because according to the charter you deserve this but according to Shariaa law,
maybe because everybody you know, interprets the Shariaa law in his own, but you
know if you study about Muslims that they say Islam for every time and place, its for
all times and eras, so they should understand what the prophet say and do
accordingly, but its becoming... it's the other way around, going to the back, so this is
some of the highlights, but even now that I am thinking of discrimination, even when
I was a teacher, because I was from AUB, they announced the community jobs in the
ministry of education and it was something new like educational television and I
wanted to... I thought, this is nice. So I went and applied and everything and the
British council was impressed and they told me that I wad the first one chosen,
number one, they choose the best three, and I was not married yet, so I was very
happy to go three months to England and study about education and television, but
then the education ministry called me, the minister or under secretary and he said,
you know, we are proud of you, and we know you are the first but we are very sorry
because you are a young lady, maybe you will get married and you will not
concentrate on this job, but I don't know, maybe because we were bread in that
sense, always accepted the things, and I was always proud that I was chosen, this is
better than going... I don't know, so sometimes, I look back and say, this was stupid, I
2


should have a raw and I don't know, maybe I couldn't have worked, but they said we
have to choose the other one, who is a man, the next 2. And it was simply because of
that. You are not married and you will not serve us, because they are going to send
you to the British Council will pay money and so on... So, this was, these 2 things I
always remember, and you know, even at the Jordan University, because I was a
graduate of 65, the first thing I thought of, although I knew I was on scholarship, I
knew it would be better if ... I know that I should settle in government, but
sometimes you can get by, so I went to the Jordan University, because I wanted... we
call it assistant, I don't know in English what is it, when a fresh graduate works in the
academia... assistant...
NP: Yeah.
LN: In Arabic they call it "Mueed", why? I don't know, it sounds different to me.
NP: Teacher's assistant.
LN: So I remember I went with one of my relatives who knew the president of the
university, so he said, I am sure, and I looked at your papers and your personality is
nice and so on, but unfortunately, until now we don't accept women in this position,
Really! I said why? Because in Egypt I hear many young ladies who graduate, they get
attached to the university and they are assistants, many, more than other... he said,
we didn't start it at the university yet, and so on, so 65 was not very far, maybe a bit
far, but I thought... then, because it is in the whole world, it was... when we look
back now, I think it was a very advanced years 60's. Even in the fashion and the
Beatles, and all these things, I always followed these things, and it was the sex
revolution and the freedom, and it was really, and even in the Middle East, it was
advanced in freedoms and liberties, even the personal freedom. Its clear I mean,
how it didn't reflect on other things, so that's how I didn't get into the university, but
I mean, this is the context but of course there was, I always felt there was some
strong, maybe silent, slow, but there was a women's movement always, and there
was some, even when I was a student in Jordan, there were some youth clubs, and
some... but you know the place which was very active in this, was YMCA, usually in
all the world it is like that. So there was something called "Shabeebeh", the Youth
Group, which was fun, and we went, I remember I went with them to Beirut, and
there was some big conference by the way, and I when I went I discovered that this
is something... because I was brought up in Ramallah, in Friend's girls school, this is
an American school, Mennonite, Sorry, Quakers... unbelievable, those are things I
thought I would never forget, but I think, no, another teacher was a Mennonite, this
was Quakers, the priests who don't wear as a priests, they look like [inaudible:
12:50]... so it was I mean, there was some liberty, maybe now girls go more, but it
was not a coeducation, because there was a Friend's boys school, and Friend's girl
school. But we took some courses together, this is back long time ago, maybe now
people look at it in suspicion, I don't know, so what did I want to say? Yeah, and
there was, I used to go to these conferences in Beirut, and at the end of the
conference they discover that I am the only Muslim in the conference, and it was
something, and I didn't feel it because I was with all my friends, and imagine, usually
3


in the 60s, 70s and sometimes 80s, I think the society was more open, we didn't
know who was from this religion and that religion, really. I was brought up like that,
because I write in Ramallah and Jerusalem and everybody... and until now it is inside
me, I mean, some people right away they like to know if you are this religion or that,
so they said, they insisted at the end of the conference that I should be the one who
said the prayer, and I said I don't know how to say prayer whether Islamic or... and
he said, write anything you feel, something humanistic or something, so I tried my
best, and everybody like it to say something in general, human. So this is also, this
shows about society, again I think, in certain places except technology maybe and
the computer and everybody is holding a mobile, and not talking to each other,
other than those things, I think the society was more open. Maybe this is
everywhere, maybe in the States or in England, I don't know. But in the States,
definitely, because now there is a rise of religious fundamentalism all over the world,
I mean not only in the Muslim world, look at Mr. Bush, he is from conservative
Christians, something like that. But on the NGO level, I was always also like when,
after I served in London, I came back from 1980, really, especially, after YMCA,
[inaudible 15:13]... I was always a member of like, there was very good women's
organizations, athought I was in the foreign ministry and very busy but they cashed
on that, every time you make events for the ambassadors wife, Lamees, you phone
all of the.... Then I call because I know them, oh, its charity, and they love it because
you know, you make a bazar and they bring things from their countries, something
like that. So I was... and I was also in the executive committee because I always write
well, so I was like a reporter, in Arabic sometimes they call it a secretary, but its like
a reporter, "Ameenat Al Sir" (The Confidant), in Arabic it has a nice name, it means
the one who is charged with a secret.
NP: Yeah.
LN: In Arabic it's a nice name, every time I write something in English, I don't know
who told me, maybe reporter looks not that little or secretary, maybe for the Arabic
population. But you know, abroad, they call the minister secretary of state, but here,
they say, not secretary "Ameenat Al Sir' is different. Some people say, so these are
things, but I have been always working, but sometimes I think that its not that I was
empowered or my husband was empowered, maybe sometimes the circumstances
serve you, because when I first got married and I got pregnant, I thought maybe
now, I will have the baby, I am sure I will resign, maybe we will also cut that, its not...
no body tells you you have to, but sometimes you think, maybe this is the way. But I
remember, we both needed that I keep working, my husband is a doctor but we
have a lesser, we were both in the government, but it was fun, I enjoyed my work
very much. But you know, because I was the first one to have a child and family, I
made my mother a grandmother, so she said, don't think if you sit at home and bring
Emad or somebody, because sometimes it is still available until now, don't think I will
allow you, I will go to your house and check on the baby, so don't do this to me and
bring him here everyday. So she was still younger, so I was the only one who got the
advantage of this, so everyday, it was fun for us, we would go in the morning we
would have a nice breakfast and leave the baby, and Amman you know, had no
traffic anyhow, it was in Jabal Lawibdeh, my parents. So, I kept on, so after a few
4


years, less, not much, my son 8 months when I got the transfer, and they my
husband started to talk to the ministry of health to send him... and I was furious, I
said he will go, but we cant afford to go together, and he will go just one year and
come back, so I started to say to the foreign ministry, because they think that if you
are married and you have the baby you will no go anywhere, you know, in the
foreign ministry everyone, there is a precedence, who is before me who is after me,
it is my turn now for the transfer, So they removed my name, the guys I mean, not
the ministry, my colleagues, so I worked on it a little bit, so I skipped many times,
and now I want, and it worked. Jordan has a "Wasta" you always have to talk to this
and to that, to convince them that you have the right now, and because it was my
turn before, but I let it go. So after, when we came after these five years, that's it, I
was near, because the retirement age for women, its for another 14 years if you
serve, although now, later on when I became ?????? actress, I was against it,
because that's why women don't go that far, after 15 years you are entitled to ask
for retirement benefits, etc... and sometimes you are very young after 15 years of
service, nothing, and for the men its 20. Now, very recently, only this year, it is not
even passed yet by the parliament, they are equal, I mean, after 20 years, the
government retirement, you can ask for retirement, because these five years you are
at the top maybe than when you leave... and many women tend to leave because for
one reason or another, I left after 17 because I was offered a better paid job in one
international association and so on... etc. the teachers especially, because they have
hard life, I don't know, it happens with the teachers, they wait and wait until they
are 15 years and they leave. But I don't know, although it was meant to protect
women, because it was thought maybe because of the reproductive process of the
woman, that she gets more tired, although now in real life, the men get more tired
than before, Really, when I look at my colleagues and everybody, so I stay, my
longest term was with the foreign ministry. But then I went, if you see my CV, I
worked in the Swedish save the children, as a psychologist and such, but then in also,
there was a big opened university that was established in Jordan, it was an Arabic...
Al Quds Open University, but now it moved to Palestine because Palestine national
something, one of the supporters, and now, but it was really a pioneer, and I always
feel that it was bad it was moved, because sometimes, the people who come in
charge they start to mess with things, but now there is another one, but it was
established in Kuwait and it was spread in the Arab World. And I remember I was
sent to London to the open university to the Milton Keys, maybe for ten days we
trained and so on, it was really nice for me, after coming from London, so it was
good. I served also in this, it used to be called Queen Alia Fund, the Jordanian... I still
have the old names in my head, Princess Basma, I'm sure its here, you heard about
it, the Hashemite Fund for Jordanian development, but it was for long time called,
the Queen Alia Fund, Now they call it "Juhud", Jordanian fund for social
development, it had, there were some projects and such, but then I went to other
things, although I became early freelancing but I always tended to like the regular
job, I don't know why, although many people think otherwise, it organizes your life
more, so I am very glad, that people tell me, even my girls sometimes, I had two girls
after I came back from London, I said, lets get pregnant there, but you know, I go
back after I was transferred, all the ministry the guys, although they are my friends
and they like me, but its because I took the term of someone they thought, look,
5


they are starting to transfer wives with ten children, I said I only have one child. I
mean, because it was different for a married woman to be transferred out for
Jordanians, so I was the first one in that. And then next to me somebody, another
one, she was newly married, she was encouraged and she married newly and her
husband used to work in emirates, even then the emirates were advanced, in Dubai,
so she asked, she worked, and her father long ago was one of the first ministers of
Jordan. So sometimes here, even if you know people who can talk to a minister...
and she has the right to... and that's even more forceful. So when I was in London, I
heard that she was transferred, I was very happy for her, but the very funny thing, I
always write it in my research as funny anecdotes, when she, but because I went
with a child and I didn't have children there, now this one goes, she was a new bride
and she had the child there, in the emirates, and when she sent all her bills, again,
they were faced with a new problem, because they have, they give them the money,
for all the visits to the doctor for 9 months, for the doctors wife, I mean the
diplomat's wives, not for the diplomat, and they wrote her an official letter, I heard
when I was in London, sorry, we can't pay these bills they are not listed in the
charter, the diplomatic charter because it mentions the diplomats wife and it doesn't
say the diplomat. It sounds funny, but it happened. And I never knew, because I
know this girl until now, or maybe I should look it up, I am sure they solved it
somewhere. Because they never things, because people are very bureaucratic, they
never think that you know, the diplomat is a man, and his wife and children, that's
why I didn't have any medical insurance, but my husband is a doctor so we always
went to the... but suppose he was not a doctor, its very expensive in England, he was
a national health doctor, and sometimes now, people think you are crazy, after I
stopped being a diplomat and he was a national health doctor, and I went back with
him, 7 years all together, people say, why didn't you ask for the nationality, it was
very easy. My children are always, you are crazy, you are not practical, you and my
dad, and I say, when you grow up you will be practical with your children, because it
never happened to occur to our minds. But some people it is stuck to their minds. So
I mean, so I always think that I am lucky that I kept on working and sometimes,
because the work is now more tough, I was a government employee, in Jordan, its
slack, the government work, it used to be from 8 till 2, perfect for a mother, I always
had help at home later on. But now, the mothers come very tired, because it is
mostly private. One of my girls she is a teacher in the kings academy and she loves
her work but she finishes at 4 and she never comes until 5 and this is really long
hours, but also she has help at home, but she says, I want to see my children and
they always tell me, you came very happy and alive and active, and where do you
want to go or study or something, I said, also, my nature is like that first and also the
work was not hectic, and I think until now, it is not. Because sometime you go to a
new ministry, I mean, when I was in the foreign ministry I always filled my time, I
used to take French, I used to have the French books, after I finish my work I would
study this and I studied once Hebrew, something like that, and try to always take the
bigger jobs, some say, we are all taking the same salary why should you bother?
Something like that, but it depends on you and what you like to do, and as I said,
maybe because it was near retirement, so I don't want to loose my benefits, so I
stayed on. But it was a way of life, then even when I left the ministry I was always
free timing many other jobs, because the children became bigger. And now it's the
6


other way around, when they become in the high schools and such, I became a
freelancer, I go to meetings and such, but the full time is difficult for a mother, are
you married or not yet?
NP: Yes I am married.
LN: Really, do you have children too?
NP: No, no children.
LN: Yeah, because sometimes people think, especially the foreigners, that we don't
organize ourselves very much, even when I came from London, I was pregnant, and I
had to look for a home, its me maybe... although my husband is a gynecologist, and
we are not organized, sometimes every... I went after I came from my time I was
pregnant and I had the baby here, although he was in a hospital and if we had the
baby there she will get nationality right away, and also the second girl the same, I
was with him, I took pay without leave, living in Harold in Essex, and it was very nice
houses for the hospital and so on. But so I came back I was pregnant and I had an
uncle, he used to tell me, you really choose the time, you are coming home, you
want to find a flat and things, I said, I always saw that this is a normal thing, its
better to think that. I thought it comes with your life, I read a lot about it and I was
very particular what to eat and to do exercises and etc. but I always thought you
can... in England I used to have some friends, we are not thinking of it now, because
the mother, somebody is married to a foreigner, and was with me in the embassy,
but a local employee, and I told him, you are married ten years, when are you having
children, he used to say, because her mother is always sick and we take care of her,
we don't have time, and then we said, we are waiting until we move to a bigger flat
but maybe this is after 2 years or 1 year, something like that. But I [inaudible:
29:55]... because I was younger and I am usually, I don't know, I am optimistic, so I
always told him, what does that have to do with a child, in Jordan you can bring your
child anywhere, I mean, not really, I always took care... and look at the under
educated people and the refugees, they are always having babies, and they grow up
and some of them become scientists. It's amazing, anyway, but of course, the
children should come first because you can't just bring them, but that's why I am
saying... but now these days the mothers are also working, they cant help their
daughters as much as my mother helped me, so it's a combination of things, but
people do work, even in Islam, we say, work is like worshiping, imagine, which is very
true, and I always speak from Islam these good things, which is... you know, and
most of the others....
TAPE 2
LN: like the Islamic Brotherhood, we have to get back to them, they are fanatics they
take just the very not wide perspective of Islam, or even Christianity, any religion,
you should understand it widely not... some people even in Jordan, I am sure you
notice they wear the Hijab, its like 90 percent I think, sometimes, in a meeting I am
the only one without, but not in all, where I was yesterday? In a condolence,
7


because here you have to go three days or one day, so yesterday there was some
family, although a Muslim family, but they are very educated and advanced family,. I
don't know, from Jerusalem, called Al Farouqi, and I was looking all of a sudden and I
told my sister in law, did you notice that non of the sitting, it was a very big salon not
wearing a Hijab, its amazing, this become strange instead, I don't know, maybe it
happened when you were there, although it was full of this family, most of them are
from Jerusalem, some people are very... I don't know, so I think not life was easier,
but maybe people think that all the time, because our parents used to say it was less
expensive and easier and etc. So maybe its just a generation thing, so maybe I talked
a lot, do you want certain questions to stress on things. I am ready.
NP: Okay, perhaps I could begin by asking also some questions about your
background, where and when were you born?
LN: yeah, I was born in Jerusalem, of course it was, there was no Jordan yet, it was
Trans-Jordan, and in December 1943. Really long time ago.
NP: No, still young.
LN: I say this sometimes, because inside you feel you are... I don't know, so it was in
Jerusalem actually. But you know afterwards, my family, he was an engineer my
father, and was educated in Istanbul, so after the war, the Israeli occupation or
whatever, after 1948 war, they you know, people, many people left out, but my
father he got a contract in Syria so they went to Syria and I remember my childhood
was in Syria and maybe for 7 years or more, he stayed there, and when he came
back I was ten years. So many people, when we came to school, they say, you have
very good Arabic because the Syrians are education is known to have a very strong
Arabic. So at ten, it was a thing, but then it was very easy, we came to Jordan, of
course, my mother, all her brothers are here in Amman, so she wanted to stay and
my father got a job here as an engineer also, he served in municipalities and ministry
last. But before in public works and you know these engineers in the government,
and so I lived this part of my life in Syria, but then in Jordan, but then again some in
Amman and some in Ramallah. Because also my father got transferred as an
engineer to Jerusalem, and but we lived in Ramallah, because my parents wanted a
school in Ramallah, the Friends girl school, but otherwise I was always living in... and
always, I always thought that people change schools all the time like me, 7 years in
Syria and then in Jordan in Friends, and then I was here, the sisters of Nazareth, so
now I am amazed, now, I tell me children because they went to the Orthodox school,
it's a mixed one, all the boy and the 2 girls, and I tell them, I never thought that
anybody can go to the same school until they graduate, this didn't happen to me, its
not bad, but I always thought... coz if most people used to work in the government
and they used to get transferred sometimes to Irbid, sometimes to other places, so
this is from the birth, but then I went to... the first years of Beer Zait college,
Freshman and Sophomore, and this was, Beer Zait is very near to Ramallah, but it
wasn't a university yet, now it is a university, but the thing, that they had a contract
with the American university in Beirut, and we took the same courses, so I also went
on a scholarship to Beirut, both Junior and Senior years, and then I came back to
8


teach, I was a teacher. Because I had to fulfill my scholarship and then the foreign
ministry. But while I was a teacher I always, I worked part time in the Jordan radio,
because the Jordan television came later in 68 or 69, I think. And I enjoyed this very
much, because sometimes I think why didn't I turn to the... it was in the English
section, and you know, just after the war, because the Radio Jordan was stationed in
Jerusalem, so after the Israeli occupation, they tried to set up something in Amman,
and they started if they know people who know English and announced, so
everybody got in touch with me, but I was a teacher in the morning, and I went but it
was part time, maybe three days a week. This is one of the things, which is quiet nice
and creative, because when you want to prepare a program, so... I don't know, I
always considered the highlight of my career actually, is the transfer to London,
because I was 30 and I felt I was on top of the world, I was married I had one child,
really, I always tell my children how I felt, and I like the diplomatic work very much,
that's why when I came back, every time there are new people at the British
embassy they always contact me, oh Mrs. Nasser, you have been in London, and I
became very good friends with them most of the time, you know how the British
are. Its nice, this is something, I always, and they say, when I was in London I always
felt, I didn't go there long time, but I was there this December, because it was my
70th birthday, this is the first time I say it you know, it is very difficult this one, I am
not very stupid in these things, but when I was 69 I said 69, but why this?
NP: you don't look it?
LN: really?
NP: You look much younger.
LN: My dear! So they said we are giving you a ticket for London, I have a friend there
a Jordanian married... and I said, wait how can I? I have to arrange, and they said
that's it you love Christmas, although its winter, but you love the Christmas and the
New Year in London, so you have to go now. And they said we worked everything
with your friend, don't worry, she said what are the best dates, she always come to
Jordan and stay with me, they live there but she is a Jordanian, and I feel like its
home, maybe because when you are there and in one of the houses, one time, when
we lived in Harold, Essex, because they give us, and I had a young son, and my
husband always came, it was very hard work, he come very late and long weekend,
sometimes 4 days, you know, he goes on Friday morning, Friday, Saturday, Sunday
and then the Monday after work... so he suggested that and I said, I don't mind to
commute one hour, so for one year and a half maybe, we stayed, but it was very
good for the child, because he was still not in the school age, and he was always, it
was very nice ambiance I mean and in the hospital, they had somebody to look for
him, and my husband always had lunch at home, and the neighbors all the doctors,
so I thought of the child more than me. And besides it was good for me, I read all of
Jack [inaudible: 09:00]... novels on the way, sometimes I missed my high street king
stone, because that's where the Embassy is, its still there, I'm sure when you got
your visa. And it was, you know, because you said you look... it was raining that day,
and I was walking and I said I will pass by the embassy, and I was just walking in the
9


street under the rain and this guy said, I swear to God, this is Lamees Nasser,
although I didn't see him, he was one of the office boys, and he was there a very
small boy, and now he has white hairs and so, but he was watching [inaudible:
09:43]... he was maybe 18 or something, and I said come kiss me and he said I will
kiss you more because you recognized me, and he said I knew it, this is Lamees
Nasser. I was very happy, and I said this is the best thing that happened in London.
They said look the woman's ego, no, because I didn't see him since 77, really. Or 78.
So I said, you made my day, anyway. This is about London, its always good to live in
other countries, you learn a lot, especially Britain, maybe when you are living there
you think its normal, but actually, its something special I think, everything is and of
course, and you know, because now when I compare the prices, we were living well,
because in Jordan, of course the government, the payment is very little compared to
private sector, but now when I think, this was very early in my career, I don't believe
it now when I say it, my salary when I was appointed was 35 Jd's, and my husband
because he was in the government, he is a doctor, he has more, so it was 70. But I
don't know [inaudible: 11:10]... or less than the benefits of the men, because to the
men they will give to the child and for the wife, it was 350 JD's. so it was really, we
thought it was fantastic, but we were lucky not like the English or for England, but
we arrived to England in the 70s, there was very... I don't know what they say, the
pound, the decay of the pound but not decay, it was the value...
NP: Devalued.
LN: Yeah, so every month it was 700, instead of 350, really, literally. And everybody
would tell me to by things for them, mother care, if they send me 20 JD's, its 40 and
its cheap, so I was always sending to people things. But now, its not the same but its
more expensive the English pound. So this is... and always my colleagues most of
them become ambassadors later, but not me, I don't know why, sometimes they
bring anybody from outside the ministry, and he used to say, I hope all the time we
stay here, the pound us down, but if we collect money, save money to take back, I
hope it is up, as if its our, we used to joke about it, because it was lucky, because
now people who serve abroad they think always that salaries are not enough, I mean
Jordanians who serve abroad, but it happened. Because they used to say Bahrain is
more expansive than London, I don't know some countries, Japan... but maybe that's
because we were lucky, so, other questions. Sorry, stop me when I say stories.
NP: No, not at all, they are all very interesting. Do you remember anything about
Jerusalem?
LN: Yes of course, because when we were children and we used to come from Syria.
We always went to families who were in Jerusalem. So of course I remember very
well. And because I served after graduation in Ramallah, which is very near, 15
minutes to Jerusalem, so we always to concerts or main events or visiting family in
Jerusalem, people don't think of Ramallah and Jerusalem... of course now, it takes a
long time. If you go recently, you will be amazed, because in Amman, even Jericho, I
mean the family of my husband is a relative of mine but his family had a big land in
Jericho, so always sometimes in the evening, anybody can say, lets go and have...
10


because there were many casinos and things on the Dead Sea there, and everybody
will go just for the night because its half an hour from Amman, and to Jerusalem its
one hour to Ramallah, but now, of course, to go there, you stay at the bridge 5
hours, 10 hours, depending on the Israeli group who is in charge, sometimes, before
it was one day, and we would stay one day when its 15 minutes, this is very sad. So I
attended all that, and of course, I love Jerusalem, because it is a very special city,
especially the old town, fantastic, sometimes I write short stories or something, I
remember once I wrote about the smells and if you go there, you have to go.... And
of course every town has its... the specialty of it is the old town, but maybe
Jerusalem is more, and it had always been international, where you go inside there
are Christians and Muslims and Assyrians, Armenians and in the schools, we had al
those kinds of people, but we never thought we are different, so many times, people
sometimes ask me, tat I am very, how do they say... Relative... sometimes the word
just run from you away, I am very neutral, in these things, but I tell them, I am from
Jerusalem so I am like that, to me a Christian and a Muslim is the same, so
sometimes it is born with you, while sometimes, two days ago, because I was very
busy doing a course last week, so I didn't read all the papers, but I was very
frightened, this girl in Ajloun she was killed, I don't know if you read the Jordan
Times, that a young woman, she is a Christian but she attended a lecture by a...
because now it's a fashion, they come, religious lectures, and she believed so much,
maybe she was thinking of it before I don't know, because they say she wanted to
turn to Islam right away, and this is not done I our country, its conservative for
either, its very difficult, so her family were very upset, and her brother or father, I
don't know, they followed her for sometime and they killed her. And now when the
city, I don't know where they said, in Zarqa or Irbid I think, I cant remember where I
read, this is last week only, and then all the population of the town they were very
upset, and they went to attack her family, why did you kill her because she become
Muslim? As if it is defending their religion, imagine! And they broke their houses and
killed some of their boys, and etc, etc. and then they went to the churches and
started... there was one church or two, I don't know which town, I even forgot that,
they start to break the glass of the church, its amazing! People are getting crazy, I
mean, Muslims and Christians. But because the majority are Muslims, so they are
the crazier, its really... while before you never hear of such things, or it was done
discreetly, yeah and there was the problem, because after they killed her they
wanted to take her to the cemetery, even there was a quarrel on the way to bury
her, and the town people said she is a Muslim now you cant bury her... imagine, they
created a problem of no problem. So this is fanaticism. In Jerusalem, we also
attended, as children or in high school when my father was there, because our home
town is Selwan, its on the way you know, Al Jismanyah, it is near my home town, a
small village, now it is a part of Jerusalem. And always when there was Easter or
something my father took us to see the processions of Palm Sunday, what is Palm
Sunday? It was two days ago. The celebration! The Sunday before Easter.
NP: The Palm Sunday.
LN: Palm! Because it has different Arabic name, "Shaneeneh", I don't know, maybe
they call it a tree, which is palm, people call it differently.
11


NP: Would you like, we can have a pause if you want. Okay. Did you leave Jerusalem
after the war started or before the war or...?
LN: No it was before the war actually, because then I was a teacher at Ramallah, a
teacher in college and... but I lived before, because my father was transferred to
Amman again, ad I was boarding with the students. Because this was the way when I
was a teacher it was a boarding school for girls who want to become teachers from
all Jordan. And the teachers who lived in Ramallah they came and went everyday.
But because I was living in Amman I was boarding, although it is not very far, but
always this was the system. But later I visited very few times, when I came from
London one time, and yeah, maybe my husband, he passed away 6 years ago, when
he had cancer, we once went to the treatment in the hospitals in Jerusalem, so I
went there for visits, but maybe one month was the longest because of operations
and so on. But I go after, but I know how it is, because his brother lived at Aizarieh, if
you hear of it, just on the outskirts of Jerusalem, and he had a girl in the high school,
and everybody have, you know, after this big wall, its very difficult to move, like the
home town Silwan, is 5 minutes from Aizarieh, but there is a wall there, and you
have to go maybe 45 minutes to get there, its very difficult when you turn to politics.
And you don't know why they do like that. I mean even now, there is Hamas who
won democratically of course, but everybody fought them in Europe and of course
they failed, because all the money that was coming to the West Bank, stopped to
come, because all of Europe and the States and Britain, all Europe, they want
democracy but if the one who won the ballots they don't like, they fight him again,
so now because they are making peace between them to become one government,
because it was really stupid to have two governments in occupied Palestine, and
now everybody is very worried. You know, you hear what Mr. Bush is saying and
what Kiri is saying, they say we have to wait and see, maybe something will happen
to the talks, this was not in time, etc... so this is besides the point, but it is very sad
what happens to Jerusalem, and especially now, that its divided already into two
cities, so we never knew the other side except after the war, because now you can
go everywhere, but we used to know the Arabic part, when I was young, young and
beautiful.
NP: You are still beautiful.
LN: so I know it, and I am always proud, but I don't know, it never caused anything,
sometimes we say, place of birth is Jerusalem, and I expect somebody to ask
something, but its okay, no problem, because it was part of... and Ramallah was a
part of Jordan when, I mean you know, the West Bank was with Jordan, if you know
historically, so it was one country, and that's why now, you have lots of people, it's a
great mix, although the rise of all those small nationalities, small things, now even in
Jordan sometimes people say, this is Palestinian and this is Jordanian, and this is we
never used to hear that before, even when I was in the diplomatic corps, there was a
lot of people from the West Bank, and most of the Ambassadors actually. Because
maybe they were more educated or the other ones who like these... but now you see
mostly from the names you can tell its all pure Jordanian, so even our heritage is
12


changing with the world, and when we used to take history long time ago,
unification of Germany, unification of Italy, it was all unification, and the Arab unity, I
am from the group that believe in Arab Nationalism, because I lived through Abdel
Nasser, and its funny because I always thought I am a fan of Abdel Nasser, Nasserites
now they call them, and some people were against him, but we are in the age group,
that everything is Nasser, Nasser, even in high school, which was an American high
school, all of us used to put sometimes the picture of Nasser, because it was like
Nasser Mania, I don't know, everybody believed in him, my Husband he was the
contrary of me, he wasn't in the party, he was in the Baath Party, he believed in their
ideas, because he studied in Turkey, so I don't know, for some reason I never asked
him for it, I should ask his friends, he always used to tell me, you are a trifle
Nasserite, like that, when we discuss politics, so I used to say lets not discuss
politics, but at the very end, maybe like after 30 years of marriage, he said, maybe
you are, and he is the politician, you were maybe politically more mature than me,
because now I think back of Nasser, he is the only Arab leader that did not collect
money for himself or his family, who lived in the same house until he died, who
brought up very good children, who are in the society, which is very true. All the
others became like kings after him, he said maybe you are mature, and I said thank
you! But it was not a mania, like Um Kalthoum, if you know the singer, we always
used to say Um Kalthoum and Abdel Nasser they are Pan-Arab, all the Arabs love
them, but he died very quickly, the poor man. Maybe if he stayed, and what is good
about him is that all the west was against him, because they don't want a strong
leader in the Arab world, of course its very clear because they don't want anybody
stronger than Israel, and this is our problem, and every age group, I used to think,
when I become 50 or 60 or whatever, all the problems would be solved, because you
know, the 20th century is the age of nationalism and independence, and no country
will be under occupation, but it is going on and on, and unfortunately, all the world is
supporting it, to us, its difficult, its not, I am a humanistic, I don't say we should kill
the Israelis or anything, because even in Palestine, my mother used to tell me, they
used to live together very peacefully, there were many Jews in Palestine, and in
many Arab countries, but specially in Palestine, and my mother used to tell me that
the Jewish doctors are the cleverest ones, I never took you except to the Jewish
doctors, so we hear those stories, which means we were living together, but this is
politics, it has to be a country, that the west, specially USA now, and the funny thing,
I remember when I first graduated, and in the British Embassy I had many friends
there, they used to say, you know Lamees, it is amazing, when there was the Balfour
declaration that give the Jews a homeland in Palestine, everybody walked to the
American Embassy, and they wanted to... and they started to break the windows, no
body remembered it was the British, because as friends we used to say that, because
in History we know that it was the British who gave this... so its amazing to go to the
American embassy, so you are happy... because people knew that later on, that's it,
maybe Britain stopped meddling and US took over in supporting Israel I mean, and
other countries, etc... and this is about politics, but Jerusalem will always be sacred I
mean, I think it's a very special for Muslims and Christians, and sometimes I wish,
although people say they can internationalize it, I think it will be good, because it will
be for everybody, but the Jews don't take that and the Arabs sometimes don't take
13


that, so I don't know what will come next after a 100 years or 50 years, so that's
about Jerusalem.
NP: when you were in University in Beirut, what was that like? Do you have any
memories of that?
LN: Yes, of course, it was really very nice, Beirut was the center of Arab culture in the
60s, again this was in the 60s, also in the 60 I was in London, and it was, all people
wear the mini... sometimes although I didn't because later I became a government
employee, I didn't wear the mini, mini, but sometimes my children look at my
pictures, and it was over the knee, which is much, I always told when I go to the
tailor, I cant wear this because, but many people... we had many poets coming to the
university and it was the cradle of freedom in the Middle East, because the media
was very free. And they were all with this side, or that side, but there was some kind
of unity, I mean even now when I go to Beirut, in the university, all nationalities, and
it was really fantastic, and always I like to think it was the nicest in the 60s, because
afterwards, in the mid 70s, there was the civil war, and even they had to change the
place of the University somewhere else, but this kept on, but it was safer to move to
the east of Beirut or something like that, but there was a very famous Arab poet,
Love poet, Nizar Qabbani, he is really fantastic and famous, and there was a very
famous, I became later her friend, so I am proud to know those literary people in
Beirut, Ghada Samman is her name, she lives in Paris now, and we are still in contact
but sometimes people when they know I know Ghada Samman, Oh my god, because
she had been writing, she started to write in 64 or... until now, and she is still writing,
and she is very famous ones, maybe you don't know the Arabic names of the... so it
was really a very, very nice, and some people... also the first Arab... what's the
name? the first Arab summit, was convened when we were in Lebanon, so all the
students were talking about that, it was convened in Egypt, in Alexandria, and even
in March, I was invited by the Alexandria library, it was established originally by...
TAPE 3
LN:... Alexander the Great, Imagine! And Alexandria all was established by him, that's
why its called, but it was ruined during many times of the, over history, but now they
built something, a huge thing really, if you go to Alexandria you have to go to this
Alexandria library, Alexandria Bibliotika, they have the name is Greek, why did I
mention Alexandria? Because of something... Yeah.
NP: The Arab summit.
LN: the summit yeah, and we went to the hotel, Palestine Hotel it was called, and
they said that in Jamal Abdel Nasser time, they build this hotel in Alexandria
especially to receive the first summit, and they call it Palestine. But it is still one of
the most beautiful, I sent many pictures to my children, I was there in the end of
March, I said look, I wake up in the middle of the night because its on the
Mediterranean, I go to my balcony and look at the sea. Because here we don't have
a sea except the Dead Sea, but also you cant afford to live on the sea, but when you
14


take this hotel and its outside your balcony its fantastic, so maybe this was in 64 the
first summit, and everyone in the university was talking about it, I think it was a very
cultured and educative atmosphere, and very free and this is what is freedom. But
now, America and Bush, I don't know, I hate Bush, I shouldn't mention him, he
doesn't deserve, poor Americans, they are not that stupid, but he is really, every
time he talked I didn't think this is the president of the United States, and now he is
a painter he is painting. Well, others now they have a brain when they talk, his father
even was different from him. So now, because it was free in a sense, even the
professors when we had our lectures, I was taking, I took a major in English
Literature, and there was a fantastic British... he was a Shakespearean, I studied
Shakespeare with him, and also many other courses, Curnel, different name, I don't
know. Professor Curnel. It didn't sound British, I don't know, maybe he is from
Ireland or Scotland, I think. And he used, I mean when he analyzed literature, I don't
know for which book, but he was saying, that in this book, they say that Jesus Christ
was a homosexual with john the Baptist, and they proved it. These things we talked
about, and we say oh my god, sometimes I think now, neither for Muslims or
Christians you can say something like that, and there was a motto of one of the
professors, that sex and money is the motto of the 20th century. These are some of
the things that stayed in my mind, I don't know why. I mean, there used to be free
dialogue all the time, I studied psychology and education, but my sub major was also
English Literature, and of course it was free, no body in the 60s... even in Jordan
University, which opened 69, there was no body with Hijab, it was not known, and
even in villages the small girls put something and then they say, she is going to
school, she has to remove this, it is not a rule but people thought that. So, I mean, its
lucky to be in that time, I don't remember now how many hundred or how many
nationalities, but it was known to be a beautiful campus, one of the most beautiful in
the world, I would like to think. And I remember sometimes when I met Sudanese, I
always tell them, that if they make a questionnaire in the university to see who is
your favorite nationality? And they write courteous, polite, helpful, all these things...
and it was the Sudanese, imagine! They are really very nice, I used to have many nice
friends, from Sudan, and I used to like them very much, but then when you... when
all the university thinks that, it means sometimes I tell the Sudanese, oh they didn't
taught us very well maybe, or something like that. They joke about it, but truly, I
remember even in Jordan, if people wanted to bring books, they would go to
Lebanon, it was said that later when there was civil war in Lebanon, in mid 70s, that
this cultural city became Kuwait, but then look what happened to it, because they
have a very famous, not literary, magazine they call it. It was like a book, Its called Al
Arabi, and it was very neutral very nice and it started maybe in the 50s, I know it
from high school, and now it is still there, it used to be 25 p. but after the invasion in
Kuwait it became 50. Which is still, every month, sometimes I don't have time to
read it, but I buy it because I am used to it, and you have, it talks about politics, and
talk about., and its an Arab one, sometimes there is a big thing on Yemen,
sometimes on things we don't follow very much... So, I sometimes I tell my children,
they say why you always buy it mama? And I say try to read it, its beautiful, the new
generation don't read a lot, I mean all over the world, but this one, I remember our
Arabic teacher in Friends, used to tell, we had to present a book every month.
Summary of the book, which is good, you are obliged to read, but she used to say,
15


she showed us this Arabic magazine, Al Arabi its called, this Al Arabi is really as
valuable as a book, I will allow you if you review that one of the month, and you
write about it, I will consider it a book. So, this also stays with you, and it is very nice.
It means until now it is still a valuable one. So this is in Lebanon, because I stayed 2
years, I was in small committees but not big political thing, I wasn't interested in
politics.
NP: You were not interested?
LN: No, not much, except when the University was talking about the first summit,
but of course I was a Nasserite as I said, because we adored him, but because also he
had every month a very long, long speech. And I don't know, maybe 2 hours or
something, sometimes in classical Arabic and sometimes in Egyptian Arabic, very,
very nice, and all the Arab world would stay... we used to do that in our family,
because there was only the radio. And everybody felt... I mean, poor other leaders,
maybe everybody envied him in Jordan, every Arab, loved Jamal Abdel Nasser first
and then maybe King Hussein, or his leader, I don't know, and it was very strong
Arab nationalism, which is all lost now. I don't know maybe if somebody like that
stayed but again, maybe its all over the world, because now look when the Soviet
Union Collapsed, now every small republic they wanted their own republic, so
people in the 60s and 70s, the first part of the 20th century, were going towards
unity, and now they are going towards... but I believe very much in the saying,
History repeats it self, so maybe it will repeat itself again after 100 years or
something or 200, and this is very typical of the women's movement, because when
you go to Egypt, Tahrir Square became famous, but it was always famous for me,
because I love Cairo and I always went there, and sometimes at 3 o'clock you want
to go anywhere, you go to Tahrir Square and people are like that, you eat ice cream
and corn, everything, because Egypt doesn't sleep at all, I'm used to it, but I was
afraid the last time to go around on my own. So they say it is Tahrir Square, because
Tahrir means Liberation, liberation circle, that women in the 1920s they were lead
by a very famous woman, if you are studying you will come cross her, Huda Sharawi,
you will come across her name defenitly, so she lead them, and of course, this was
not in Islam, this is because of the Ottoman Empire, everybody wore Yashbak they
called it, this black all over, and black here, now maybe in Qatar it stayed but I don't
know from the Ottoman or its national dress maybe, and they walked there and
stand "long live the woman"... etc, "woman liberation", and they all shed these
things down, Imagine! And now if you go to Tahrir Square, every body is sitting there
lovers also, because in Cairo Asir El Neel Bridge is also famous, its for lovers, they are
always standing there, before, we used to say very fashionable lovers, now, they are
the same ones, all the ones in the Hijab they are lovers, and they are standing there,
check to check, here and there, because it is a long bridge. So, nothing changed
actually, its just like the 60s, where the mini skirt was the fashion, now the hijab is
the fashion. So I was telling some women in the conference, I am sure after a
hundred years, all the women will walk again to Tahrir Srqaure and shed their Hijabs.
So its funny, but maybe it will happen, because in the 60s we heard those liberated
women, and they went to the I think, Picadeli Circle and threw their bras, maybe its
true or not true I don't know.
16


NP: I am not sure if it is a myth or.
LN: you heard about it?
NP: Yeah, yes.
LN: I didn't see it, but in Egypt, it is well known, they went to Tahrir Square although
after many years I went to Egypt, I didn't know why it was called like that. So, one
time we wet on a trip with a guide and this is what he said. So, I said, oh my god, and
of course it started and who started the liberation of women movement, all the high
educated people and the Sheikhs. Because in Muslim societies the most educated
are the Muslim priests, the Sheikh, because they study a lot and read a lot, so Imam
Mohammed Abdo, and some of... even the music in Egypt was started by one of the
Imams, I forgot now his name, Sheikh... I forgot what... I saw it on a television series,
he is the one who taught Um Kalthoum, how to sing, you know the, and now, some
Muslims say this is Haram (Forbidden), you will go to hell, that it is forbidden against
Islam, so they changed in society, I don't know, of course I maybe prefer the older
one, except with some... so this is, when you think, and even in Jordan, sometimes
the older Shiekhs who used to be very famous ones, they used to be very liberated,
because they speak about Islam as it is, now the newer ones, they think this is Haram
and you shouldn't do that, and some crazy ideas are coming if you read on the
internet, like one of them said a woman can't work with men, except they are her
milk brothers. So, all of them, the man should really... there were so many jokes on
the internet, that the man, every woman should breast feed both her colleagues and
they will be like her sons or... and there was so hilarious things everyday on the
internet, the secretary is typing and somebody says, this is enough I think, you are
now my son, he says no I am not having enough. This is one of them and many other
things, there was a Sheikh in Saudi Arabia, many people attacked him and who came
with him etc... like also yesterday only, I read that one Saudi Sheikh, he said that he
allowed, it is allowed to sleep with children, homosexuality, because it is very much
against Islam and you know, religions are against it, but to have sex with... especially
if they are small, look this is child abuse we are always against it, how they think of
these things? I read this yesterday in an article, this sheikh is saying, because
everything they think of the men, how he release because not allowed to have sex
with another woman or something, so he follow boys. I don't know, and I said, I
don't know how these Sheikhs think... but maybe some people against them, and yes
there was this in Islam or pre Islam, and they start to discuss and leave all the big
issues. Sorry, disgusting! And what about the work, also I have something, because I
have something, always I thought people... when I was in the ministry of education it
was all women, but when I went to the foreign ministry because... of course, there
were men teachers but mostly like women and one teacher, who teachers chemistry
or physics because there were not many women teaching this then, at that time. I
always there is a general saying, that women are the only ones, they just talk about
fashion and dresses and lipstick and makeup and children and all these things, and
the men are more brainy they don't think about all of that. I went to the foreign
ministry and I was really flabbergasted... British, the Americans wouldn't say...
17


because all the men are all fashion conscious because they are diplomat, and I used
to tell them, I am glad I worked here because I never thought you were exactly like
us, because it depends on the person, they come in and like, what is this suit? It is
beautiful, and right away, they look at the back of... and Oh, Armani, I don't know,
and I learned all these in the foreign ministry, the big titles, and they always, they
talk, if somebody, another man, they really talk, I mean, this is not bad, I mean, they
are the same, I didn't do this with my friends, because sometimes I have other things
to talk about, but they always say, women are like that, but men are even more like
that. They are exactly like each other, it depends maybe on what they work, or what
they do... and the gossiping, and they gossip more even, and also the fashion
consciousness and all of this, and even the perfume, I told them I am glad to learn
from you, I want to take my father, there was something, I forgot, something very
nice, and I started bringing it to my husband. And I am getting some culture here,
because I don't know the fashion for men, so this is something that psyched me
actually, and what else. But wherever I worked I really enjoyed my work, and I have
very life friends from the men and the women, and they become friends with the
family also, sometimes I invite them and of my husband and of the family, the other
day, they were asking my brothers, somebody, or this man is a friends with the
whole family, and we wonder where did he start? So I tell them from me, he was my
colleague and we were living in Jabal Lweibdeh, and sometimes he passed by me to
take me to him, and he always comes and my mum knew him and then my husband
became very friendly with him later on and its fantastic, and sometimes, I think its
very healthy, sometimes the ICRC people say, no not like in your time where people
were closer, because it was a smaller, we were in Jabal Amman, after the 3rd circle, I
started, there was a smaller one and then I moved to the next which is, but now they
moved outside Amman, on the way to the Airport, so they say people were closer
but maybe everybody think like that, you think now people are close or your friends
only... No, in Jordan, because, like even in England, when you are living in London,
the first house we took, was in London, and the last one, but in between we went to
Harold, so of course, when you are in the country, you get to know people in the
post office they know who I am, and they say how is doctor Nasser, and because its
small, a small community and then afterwards, when I went back with my husband I
lived in {inaudible: 18:32] Garden city, also I loved it, very nice, and people know
each other more, and sometimes they come, but usually I mean, it depends on the
place, like in a big place, now, here, we know the neighbors by... but before we used
to know the neighbors and you had to go visit if you move here newly everyone
would come and say hello to you. Maybe I think, from which part of England are
you?
NP: I was born in Birmingham.
LN: the north are more friendly usually, they say, family ties and such.
NP: yeah, they say they are more friendly up north. Technically I am in Midland, Not
north and not south im from the middle, they say the further you go from London, to
the north the more endearing it gets.
18


LN: like the Irish or I forgot, there was somebody in the embassy, a very nice guy he
is big, I always used to tell him, you remind me of the prime minister, he was also
big, Callahan... with the eye brows, very friendly, and his wife they always hug me,
the best cook in Jordan somebody said, but they are nice... So, I told him your
character and your looks they don't look English at all, I was stupid to say English, I
should have said British, and he said, yes, because, of course not because I am
Welsh. I said, oh my god, I am sorry, I meant to say British, maybe or something,
because they different they are very warm, Welsh and the Irish, not against the
British but always in the big capital people are fast, everywhere, but this, just what
we thought it will not happen to the Arabs, it is happening, because now, like
Amman, was first in Jabal Lweibdeh, and then Jabal Amman, you know very... how
long have you been here? Did you get to see exactly the constitution of Amman?
NP: I have been before, I visited before, so I know it.
LN: because all foreigners love Jabal Lweibdeh because it is smaller and many
cultural things are now moving to it, but for me the French Cultural center was there
so I always took French there, and I was living beside, ad it was the only park in
Amman. Now, there is the restaurant there, I forgot the name, they put it, and there
is a national gallery, maybe you went there I am sure. And it is a very nice area, like
family so we lived in the second floor in one of the... but the whole area looked like
home, and we used to know all the neighbors around the circle. But now, I know
maybe the next, because it is a twin house, but not like everyday together or
something, neighbors before used to be very... so this is the fast life maybe.
NP: Yeah, exactly.
LN: do you want another tea?
NP: Okay, thank you. Can I ask why you liked work? Why was it important for you to
work? And what did you like about your work?
LN: I have to wonder, its god because from... because most of the time, I was
enjoying what I did, and I liked interaction with people, I had, I communicated well
with people, so it was easy for me, I never thought, but some people say you are
different don't talk about yourself... because I don't have a problem, many people,
sometimes, in the foreign ministry or in the teaching profession, some people would
be like, this guy this and that, and I used to say no, he is very nice, and the say, that's
it, you always defend people, but I am not trying to defend, I am trying to see the
other points, I mean, I don't know why, but I dint have a problem on the
interpersonal level, and also I don't know, many people tell me, maybe you don't
know what they say in your back, and I say, I never care about that, I never thought...
because when you don't do something, you think people don't do it, really. But I take
these things [inaudible: 23:33]... and I never think about it, of course I know the
girlfriends sometimes, if we come anywhere, they say, maybe they said something
about my dress or, but I didn't hear anything, I am not the type who would think
something like that, what did they say about me, but basically, it's the work I used to
19


like very much in the foreign ministry, and I worked, at the first I started in the
library, and then it was in the International Organizations, and also in the protocol in
the political section, and the protocol, I was one time in the Passport department,
and you know, we make all the ID cards and etc. and it was great because you see
everyone come from everywhere for their IDs. And the last one was in the protocol
department, and I forgot to say as a woman and for discrimination, because one
time we had a foreign minister, he said, he decided he doesn't like married women
as diplomats, imagine, and we were 5 of us married, and the others were not, and
really, this is very important, and I started with the other ones, when I got the
transfer in the 80s even, I don't know, he is still around, because he was head of
protocol once, and he looks very, he is handsome and tall, and looks very advanced
and his wife is American and such, but sometimes you don't know what the brain is,
so all of a sudden, that it is not fit for a married woman to be... they cant do their
work well, and maybe they are not reliable from secrecy wise or something, so I
remember that, and it went a rumor in the... but it was true unfortunately, and he
called me, because I was the oldest one and the most advanced, I was first secretary
then, and he called me once and discussed, and he say, I heard a lot about you from
your colleagues, they respect you and you are a hard worker, because I was in
London then, and some of those with me in London are some of his best friends so...
and he is a career diplomat and he should know, he served with women, and he said,
I don't want, I want all of my diplomatic court to be movable, mobile, maybe the
married woman can't, and I said why your excellency? Because I was in London with
my husband and this girl was here with her husband, and I was naming them for
him... and anyone of them they are waiting for... he said also, it is not worthy to have
because maybe she would say all the secrets to her husband, I said, haven't you
heard of all the old espionage historical stories, Mata Hari and all of that... it is on the
contrary, we are the ones who keep the secret, and it was true, because in any
profession, some people are sometimes dependable in everything, and I said its no
different it depends on the character, but the women are more secretive than men,
etc.... and I told him when I was in London, one of the depute ambassador was
working with the intelligence in Jordan, so then he became a diplomat so he knows
what he is doing, one day he called me and said Lamees, I want you to take the
Cipher, there was something called the Cipher, but this is before the internet and
all... and I said no, when you can't come I will come, but I want you especially to have
that, I was very happy he trusted me, and I remember during the weekend, I would
tell my husband, please, you are off today, if you can take me... and he would drive
me and all the way back he would say, what? I am sure it is something trivial, to take
it from here, what was it saying? I am sure somebody is visiting, I say, okay dear, I
cant tell you, he would say tomorrow all your colleagues would tell me, and I would
say okay, go ask them. He said, do you believe she didn't tell me all the way... and
maybe it is stupid but I was very careful not to... for something to come out from me,
because I was also a woman so I was extra careful, let them say this guy said and
that guy said, but not me, so I was telling him that it happened in London that they
insisted I take it, and it means they found that I was trust worthy, and they are all
men, and then he said, why didn't you go work with Madam Inaam, there was a
famous woman minister who worked in the ministry of social development, imagine.
This is stupid, why didn't you think to go work with Madam Inaam? I said, what do
20


you mean? Of course I knew what he meant but I want to see what he means... I
mean in the ministry of social development, and every time, they put a minister it is
in the social development, and then I said, if I wanted, I was in the ministry of
education if I wanted, but then I sat for exams and I tried my best to come to the
foreign ministry, and this is what I wanted so I don't understand your question. Do
you ask anybody why did you go this ministry or to... really it is impossible. And then
I thought maybe it will end here, and all of a sudden, one time, maybe after six
months or something, he took, and it was against the diplomatic charter because it
was closed, it was called "closed", meaning you cant come except if somebody
resigns or die and not so., he opened it, and we used to say it's a closed charter to
protect us, and now he opened it, and he said all the women, the marries ones only,
imagine, and all of them were married to somebody like Majali and he was in the
royal court, he became on the royal court later, and one Oun Khasawneh, he is a
judge in the international court of justice, he became later prime minister, I mean
prime minister here in Jordan, he has even bigger thing abroad, and all of them, I
told you her father was the first prime minister in Jordan, Fawzi Mulqi, is his name
and I don't, I am the highest degree but he all of a sudden we received that I appoint
you, head of communication and protocol, he appointed me, and everybody said,
congratulations, but he removed the diplomatic status, but then afterwards, and it
as really nothing, really the husbands were sitting together saying he is a bad guy,
maybe if you were new you will win the court, but then he will send you to the
trouble areas to see if you are going, to Sudan, to... and the same time he issues
transfers for 3 or 4 of us, I apologized, because I came from London one year only...
TAPE 4
LN: usually you would like to go and it was in Ottawa in Canada, imagine, but my
husband after 30 years said, why did you listen to me and not go to Canada? I said
oh my God... of other than Nasser, because I thought, that's it, you are a medical
doctor, and you have a clinic, you cant go around with me every 4 years and so on... I
don't know, we talked it over, and he said I am not ready, and we took money from
the bank, and we have to stay here, so I apologized and it is the only one I
apologized for, all the others were preparing to go the married ones, then he
cancelled all. I mean it was very stupid governmental thing, I don't know, now,
peoples eyes are on the government, maybe they don't... and it was in the 80s, not
in the 60s, this was after more than 17 years in the ministry, but then we had
another, somebody... then I was offered this thing from the Swedish save the
children, with higher pay, of course I was very... I don't know maybe then it was then
135, but this was 350 dinars, so I was ready to leave, although I left early I think,
because we always say that women don't go to the higher decision making positions,
maybe for one reason or another or for family ties, or for stupid... they leave, when
you stay in the same place, you grow more I think. And then we had another
minister, Tahir Al Masri, very famous here, he was head of the senate, and before
head of the parliament and prime minister, and he was looking and he said, what's
happening? Because we were stupid we didn't spread it, now when I talk sometimes
in my research, I talk about it, so I see some of my colleagues, one who was smaller
than me, but he became a foreign minister Abdel llah El Khateeb, so one time he
21


came to me and said, Lamees, you are shooting at the government I heard. I said,
me, shooting what? I am saying what Marwan Qasim did to us, he took [inaudible:
2:00]... so he was able to be in a laughing mood, so this one, Tahir Al Masri, he didn't
want me to resign, for I don't know him personally, but he kept saying to me why
and so on... he said I am planning, I am studying this file and I will let you back with
your diplomatic standard. Although it didn't matter, but it was something... suppose
I wanted to transfer later, but I am not a diplomat, but then I said, no, no, my
husband wants me to... he was discouraging me, it was more money and you are
sitting in the government, and people sit because they want to go out in the foreign
ministry, I don't know, sometimes you put family first, or most of the time, and I said
okay. So but he wrote on my resignation, Agreed but I am very sorry. And this is, I
said, oh my god, the [inaudible: 03:00]... they usually put agreed, so I always told it
for him, I like this guy, he became of course different things later, this is something
that, if you say I don't know what happened in the primitive land, okay. But most of
us were little careless to... we were not empowered enough to think that we should
expose him in the prime minister's... with the ministers, look what he has done, he is
preaching all the charters and all of that, so that was stupid, but I don't know
where... all of us had our children small, not newly married but were young wives, I
don't know. We thought, and most of them left, I am the only one who stayed after
that but, after maybe 2 years. But I did leave because of that. Because the new
minister wanted to rectify it, but these are the things women face. Of course, I hear
about many others things now, they say about the harassment, but maybe now,
people are carrying it too far, I mean, always you can say, oh you have a nice haircut,
now, I hear it is really crazy, and some people carry it over, people would say, its not
his business to tell me that, why did he say that, I mean I don't know maybe we were
more bashful, we didn't have great [inaudible: 04:30]... but of course things happen
even when you are married, sometimes some colleagues would try to make passes
on you or invite you to drink beer or, especially that we are in Jabal Amman, and
there is an Inter Continental, sometimes I mean, but I always take it as a joke and
say, oh come on, in the middle of this... and go drink beer, and I don't drink beer, I
sometimes, I used always to taking like joking, maybe I shouldn't have I don't know,
but sometimes these things happen, but now, there are great problems, you say,
because we didn't have this expression now, every time the UN invents a new
expression, like sexual harassment, and even on the streets sometimes people
follow you and say, it was but... but the cutest was in Egypt, I always went to Cairo,
but they are known that they are cute, that they say things, but you keep walking or
smile and they leave, but now, during Tahrir Square, they say that people are
touching and this is very... I mean, things develop. Maybe more civilization things
are, or maybe it attracted attention to these things and they start to do it. I don't
know, and even in Jordan now, we have, we always had some cases of honor killings,
and rape and but I think they were milder, even when the people were wearing
shorter dresses and without any hijab, these things happened less. Maybe we need
an anthropologists to study this. You think the same maybe in other countries,
maybe?
NP: I don't know, its difficult to know f there are more actual cases or whether that
people repeat it more.
22


LN: some years ago, after I left the foreign ministry, I don't know there was some
guest coming to the American embassy or the British embassy, or something, but
there was a reception and he was saying something, he said, but he was an elderly
man with white hair, and he said, it is amazing when I went to the meeting it was all
men except one young pretty lady, so I said, maybe he is from that age group, so I
said, oh I am so happy that there is one pretty lady with us because we are all men
and so on... maybe he gave her a compliment or something, and then I realized that
if I was in my country, maybe she will sue me, because we now are having these
things about sexual harassment, I don't know he said it aloud, and it was very true, I
thought to myself, yeah, many times, you say, at least you have one, at least one
said, we have a flower in the middle of us. Maybe we don't like to hear that. Maybe
before when we heard it we passed it like that, but he said, this is really, I thought
this is really good, because if I did that mistake somewhere else, I would be sued, so
maybe, carried it too far I think. But they do these days, whenever we go to a
conference, sometimes I tell my colleagues, many time our colleagues, every time
they say, because we say it to each other, your tie is nice, your perfume is nice, or
sometimes they tell you the same, but now people look at it and make a big fuss,
especially the Arabs started to do like that, maybe they are more advanced than us,
but in North Africa, like Tunisia or Morocco, in Magrib, yeah, especially Tunisia.
Because in Tunisia they are very... now even, but as I said, when I was in that
conference, we discovered that all the Arab world, is getting backwards in ones eyes.
Especially in the Arab spring and the governments that had some revolutions,
because when the Tunisians spoke, the Yemeni, the Sudani, everyone, and the
Libyan and of course the Egyptians also, I mean seven countries that had some riots,
and in even in Jordan, every time they change a law they make a few good things
and then something gets back. So, and I remember in Tunisia they said we have a
real problem, because they were advanced in 1957, they had a person status law,
which is a family law that was so advanced, he brought, Abu Rqeiba, he brought
many learned religious Muslim men, I mean, Sheikhs, and told them to study and tell
me your verdict about this, about multiple marriage, four! So they studied the Quran
and the Quran say because pre Islam people married 20 or 30, all the slaves you can
sleep with them and so on... so in Islam, they did gradually, he said only 4 and there
is something a condition, this is so that you would benefit orphans. Its to protect the
orphans and those women, and sometimes there are no reason so you don't have to
do it. And something else, in other verses, it says, you can be very fair to all of them,
the four of them its okay. And then in the third verse, because it is progressive, it
says you can never be fair, that means one. But every sheikh wants what pleases
them, and so you see now, there are voices going back, this is not Islamic, these are
heretic and they left us... but the Tunisians, especially the women, say we are sure
because we were brought and bread like this, so maybe nothing will change because
no body will accept it. Nor the men neither the women. So I wonder what will
happen, because sometimes people change. And also, in all the Arab countries, now
they are also calling for lessening the age of marriage, to 9 some of them, imagine,
because Aisha, one of the prophets wives, were married at age of 9. Although there
are many stories and books say that she was 13, and 13 at that time maybe it was
okay. And she is the one who say, take half of your religion from this red head lady,
23


this is what they say in Arabic. But now in Sudan, and in Saudi Arabia, they are asking
for 9 not only 13. Ad in Jordan we fought to become 18. It is now 18, but in the last
amendment, they said unless the judge thinks it is in the benefit of the girl I don't
know, maybe she had slept with the man and they want to cover it, or she is an
orphan and she is living alone, something bad will happen, if it is better for her to
marry, she can be less than 18. But what we are against, that they should add on
condition to be like 16 or 15 something like that, not leave it, if the judge thinks its
more proper, he can decree the marriage, so in Jordan this is something back. In the
constitution they say that the family and the values of the family, I mean, in the
constitution in Jordan you don't see... which means you have to go with the
country's traditions, they bring you traditional... so I am always afraid when every
time there is a change or amendment of one law, I don't like amendments, because
even the society's law, of 1968, we were working according to it, and now we are
having a new one, and I has... some of the few things are a little bit better, but many
things, there are more restrictions more limitation for the work of NGOs, etc. and
more punishment, like you would go to prison for 10 years, or you are fined, so
maybe no body would come and volunteer to work in NGOs, so I don't know what is
happening to the world, not only here, but especially the Arab Spring countries, all
the revolutions, nothing is happening and it is getting backwards in the laws. And
specially women's laws, and everybody say now, we have more urgent things to
think about other than... but that never happen. So these kind of policies... because
you wanted like, not global on the Arab level, but of course I always thought that the
North African women and the Arab women are not a like, especially Tunis, and also
Algeria and Morocco, they are more advanced than the Arabs, more powerful, even
the trade unions it is full of women, here, not so much. Maybe they make a
committee for the labor union, a women committee, something like that. So... This is
it.
NP: how did you become interested in women's right?
LN: yeah, its also, a long time ago as a woman I always followed but passively, but
you know, when you are allowed to go elect, etc... now in Jordan in 74, they were
given the right to vote, but not to also run, but later on it was to run. Maybe because
it started, I joined one committee or organization called, Nadi El Jameyat, even they
called it a club, because its international but it has this Jordan chapter, that
university women club, or society, and we were interested very much in the laws, so
we are... there was no support or donations, I don't know how we managed, maybe
we... I said I will go and see the president that was then, and see how did we do all
these things, sometimes she go to companies, she was a doctor, but very active, and
I was in the administration, but this was when I was in the foreign ministry, we used
to make bazars and it didn't cost us anything, maybe she take from, maybe the hotel
will give a donation, and all the diplomatic women would bring the things and then
we would collect the money, so it was very good. And even in Ramadan, we used to
do Iftar, (breaking the fast), every one of us used to make a dish, and leave it in the
organization, and somebody would pay a ticket like 5 dinars or something, but it cost
us nothing actually, maybe this initiated me into it actually, of course before, the
YMCA used clubs and such, but it was not purely women. And you know, this famous
24


Toujan Faisal, you have her name, I swear, you did your homework well... Bravo, she
was one of us, but she was not famous then, so we were working in this, in the
university and... she was doing her masters, and working somewhere, so we always
put her in front, so one time we make about the personal status law, and always we
divide the things between us, what we... that one she made a paper and she is fiery,
when she talks, wow, and we gave this lady the president, she says we are the ones
who gave Toujan Faisal a forum, because we were in the... and she was the most
courageous amongst us, I will say this, so once there were Tunisians, and there was
some Tunisian delegation from the government, and they were talking about the
law, and then a Jordanian Sheikh, Zaid Al Keilani, he stands up and says, they change
the Islamic religion, your heretic president... etc. there was a raw, and some people
took him out and then the Tunisian delegation they went out, and Toujan was
shouting, I still remember, but then everybody apologized to each other, but ours he
did not accept it, it was in the 80s, we were very active in this association, but I don't
know, then it died out, the president... usually everything the president maneuvers
us and such, usually not too much. So, but then after that I applied to, there was
something provided by the president, but this was when I really went in, but it was
really, 1990, but from the early 80s maybe 10 years I was with this women's
organization, this NGO. So there was a regional project called, like Arab Association
for Women and Development, and it was really interesting, but it was a project of
two years, so I went... they met many people and I was engaged in it, this is when I
left the university. And I really enjoyed the work very much, and this is when I knew
all the big Arab activists, because it was regional, and we were supposed to write to
them and tell them about the establishment of the general secretariat of this and we
were working really very well, and we did 2 big conferences, everybody that I new
from Lebanon and all the Arab world, from Tunisia, and then we did something
about Arab women and economy, and we have colleagues coming from Al Azhar and
everywhere, so this is two years really initiated me into this, and afterwards, we
started our organization, there was president Haifa Wazari, now she is with the Arab
league and she became the leader of UNIFEM in Jordan also, but then I became the
president. But now we are all... I mean I am one of the youngest, they are all, they
lost interest and they become... I mean our, but I inherited them because they were
with Haifa, the previous one, and they are very nice ladies but we don't work very
actively, of course sometimes, and it depends on projects, there is no more money,
sometimes of course you go and take the donations, from one bank, but the
organizations are too many now, and they are, they like to give, suppose I go to any
bank, even the ministry of planning, so one time I told them, I applied to you twice,
tell me some of the names that you gave funding to, because we always... so he said,
River Jordan association, Queen Alia, Juhud, I told you they changed the name, all
headed by princesses, they get more media attention, and then I said, oh now I
understand, we allow them to... of course they have big staffs and people trust them
more, I mean we took the last project that ended the end of last year, it was about
training of trainers on association laws, because people are so mixed up, even the
NGOs don't understand it, so we engaged a lawyer who is very learned in this, and
we did it, because the donors now they want to go out of Amman, so we did it in 8
governates, so we went to Tafileh, Ma'an we didn't go, but Aqaba, and Zarqa and
Irbid, we went to 8 governates, and it was very good, but now when it is finished,
25


sometimes there is some left money from it, because we work for, we saved because
there is a coordinator but actually one of us do the work, sow e get the money, but
now we applied, and I am the one who writes the projects sometimes, I am out of
ideas, I say, tell me new Ideas, and they say violence against women, I say, we should
sit down and say, what part and what are the objectives and what we will do,
because you know the projects are hard to do sometimes it works. So I tell them to
my... maybe I am out of ideas now, so somebody should brain storm. And now we
are in many committees, and I am myself, I was actually, because the government
they made me make a quota committee to study the feasibility of putting a quota for
the women, maybe this was when.... 2009, I forget, sometimes I write it here, but
this is, but our addresses are wrong here, the correct ones are here also. Once we
took from the French embassy, this is me, much younger here, why?
NP: you look very glamorous?
LN: although it is not very, when was it, maybe 2007. Yes, 2007, seven years ago.
NP: 5 years, yeah, 7 years, time flies.
LN: although I am still active and still try, some people who know me they say, like
this, you collapsed a little after your husband died, I say, why? Because I have
children and things, I am okay. I say, I didn't think so, but maybe it happens when
you don't notice it. Although I always thought I would be more active, because
sometimes, you would love voluntary work, everything without money you go for it,
all of that... always I have to say we have this and we have this, I thought I will...
nobody after you... but maybe we will work better when there is somebody
challenging us, maybe that should be the challenge, like I will be doing this and you
will be doing that... so this is, I always go from one story to another so I forget what I
was saying but this is an older one. But I mean, not everything is in here, maybe
because this is an older brochure, but we work a lot on SIDA, because sometimes, it
feels that I am an expert myself, because when you see, this is y CV, with UNICEF I
worked a lot on the training for the women's convention, and also I went to, when
we sent CVs to UNICEF, and they chose me to go to Oman, I went maybe three
times, because they didn't ratify first, they are afraid and they are waiting for the
other gulf to, but now all of them except, now the 22 countries, we have the Sudan
not adhering to it, and of course Somalia... maybe 2 countries not 3. I always used to
know by heart because....
NP: Saudi Arabia?
LN: No, Saudi Arabia was one of the first to enter. Yeah. But the gulf were a little
late, like Qatar, Oman, and these ones like Bahrain, because I started work in 97
mostly, I was engaged by UNICEF to work on SIDA now, and it was 11 Arab countries,
and for many years, we said just 11 Arab countries and they are 22, but now they are
19. 21, 22, who is the third one? Sudan definitely, and Somalia, I cant remember the
third, I usually know them by heart.
26


NP: Comoros.
LN: Comoros, no, they didn't make even a reservation or anything, Comoros. Maybe
Djibouti, I always... because definitely Sudan and Somalia, although they always
agreed and said with the Sudais, that your women are the most empowered, this is a
long time, like Egypt, the first university professors, and the first judges, in all the
Arab countries, no judges, Egypt was the last, they say its against Shariaa, great
discussion, even Jordan, they had women judges before Egypt, imagine! If Jordan
thought it was okay in Shariaa, and now may Arab countries are working towards it
but Egypt, very newly, so one we were talking and the Sudanese women, they said
why you are making a great fuss? Because in Sudan since the 1960s we have women
judges. And they are the ones working with Shariaa law in the most. And in the
convention of the rights of the child, they were the first Arab country to ratify, so I
said this is a replica, everything is here, is already here, but this is for the mother and
this is for the child. Sometimes you like to make the comparison to encourage the
country so, one lady told me I think maybe the UNICEF director was from New York
and was coming to visit Sudan, and our ambassador said it is a shame that you are
not ratifying the convention on the rights of the child, so we ratify in a hurry, we
didn't read it, and all the other countries make reservations on three subjects, on the
convention of the rights of the child, but one of them is very stupid, because it is
about choosing, about adoption. Because in Islam there isn't adoption, but they
were very smart the UN, they went to Azhar, they went to Zaitouna, the big religious
centers of the Arab world, and Al Azhar joined the study of the rights of the child
convention actually, and they said, here in the adoption, that each child, who has no
family has the right to be adopted by a family, but of course this was scrutinized and
so on. And then he said, in Islam it is not allowed the adoption, we call it care, like
care, which means, we can't put him in your name, because in the future maybe you
will marry his sister or something like that, things happen, sometimes you have
stories on TV. So Al Azhar studied it and said this is the same exactly, so we should
say or the Islamic welfare care. So, and then all the Muslim countries reserved on
this, including Jordan, so sometimes in conferences, I tell them, you know all those
Islamic countries they are reserving against Islamic child welfare care, really. Because
it says inside the item, I think 20 or 24, and one of them I think article 14, it says, that
the child is free to practice his religion etc.... but then not to choose because he is
very small, freedom of religion and conscious and things like that, and then
everybody reserved. Ah, I know those foreigners, because in the futures they will say
that he can become Christian or Atheist, and it doesn't say that. But maybe it should
be explained like that but in the SIDA now, it's the other way, like the nationality in
Jordan at least, but most of the countries, even Muslim or non Muslim, on the family
law, and also on this nationality, because it is political not... the third, in Jordan they
withdrew, and all the sheikhs here, oh, now look, we are imitating the west, we are...
although there was no need, and one of the important sheikhs I went to when I
worked at UNICEF, and meet him he said, no, this shouldn't be reserved it is not
against Islam, he said, freedom of choice of domicile and travel and domicile. So he
said whatever the Muslim woman wants she can make in her marriage contract, you
can't reserve on, because she is allowed to have conditions, she can say, oh you cant
marry after me, or I want to stay in my country while married to him, it used to be
27


like that, even longtime ago. Those in Saudi Arabia they married somebody and they
are in Damascus, and also besides, it was not in the Jordanian laws, long time it was
cancelled that women should take permission for the travel, but because everybody
usually....
TAPE 5
LN:... like to see that, when the government said that we are withdrawing this
reservation, they started, what about in the future when our daughters will say we
want to live alone? Etc, etc. so sometimes, anything which is good, which mentions
women, and also the CEDAW, the government was afraid to pass it in parliament, I
mean we ratify it since 1992, and we have already presented 5 reports and it is
signed by the king and etc, so when they put a child convention in front of the
parliament, right away in one minute they all accept it but with its reservations.
Okay, no problem, it would happened the same to CEDAW, but when everyone saw
in the society what they do when the mention anything about women, so the
government published it, we have something called, official gazette, nothing is really
legal except if it is published there, and it is a plus if it is passed by the parliament. So
it came form the government, it said we have already did this, and the king signed it,
and we have presented 5 reports, so the government decided to publish it in the
official gazette, so it became official now. But of course many people criticize that,
but if you go to the parliament they will make maybe 10 other reservations, so
maybe this is the story of the CEDAW, and things are getting worst, maybe because
there is in the CEDAW the age of marriage is 18. Maybe they will stop here and
deserve on it. Because they say, in Islam they say the prophet married somebody
and... so we have a problem, really. And many times, I was going to say I was in the
quota committee, so we were just maybe 16, 8 men and 8 women, but I really think
we didn't push and work together well. Because even the women, and some of them
were in the Women Federation etc. from the start I said maybe we should say 12,
okay, because in Amman you can't have... no, I even said 15, I gave a number that
now, recently they did. I fixed that, and even my husband is very good in elections
and committees, so we were discussing it together and I remember I wrote it that
we need 15, although we are 12 governates, because suppose 3 maybe for Amman,
maybe 3, 4 for Zarqa, 2 for Irbid and 1 for... because you cant have just one for one,
because the population is more in each city. He said, oh my god, the president of the
committee, he said Lamees, where shall we put them, we don't have space in the
parliament, I said you can build fabricated houses, anyway, and the women, when I
told them lets all say we want 15, because then they would say half half, and some
of the men will come with us maybe. They said no, Lamees, we know, we heard from
the prime minister last time, he said don't dream more than 6. I know it wouldn't
happen, so why should we ask. No, we should ask, so we didn't ask. So everybody,
then we raised our finger, who wants 15. I raise on everyone. Who wants 12?
Because of the suggestions, then I tell anybody with me, please raise on the next
one, because we will loose the... anyway, and then we voted on 7 and we sent it to
the government, but the government said 6. So it stayed for maybe 4 or 5 years as 6,
and then they raised it to 12 but now they raise to 15. So its amazing, yeah, also we
had many forces in the parliament, against this, they said why? a woman is a citizen,
28


why should we? But we said we have many quotas, we have one quota for the
Christians and one for the Circassians and one for the Chechens, only two or three
for the caucuses, because, and then we said we either, move all the quotas or... why,
we are helping the ones who dot win, and maybe for 2 elections nobody won, except
those on the quota, but last elections, 2 won their own rights, because they were
previously parliamentarians, so now the number went to 18, because 15 is that's it,
that's our right, and anybody who wins outside the quota, can be added, which is
really... but the problem is in conferences, some parliamentarians they say, we are
imitating America, and imperialism etc. I know, because when you study ones rights
and such... and I said, maybe they learn from us, I wanted to say, they learn from us,
because in 1957 and here is Emily Nafaa, she is now a senator by the way, you can
ask her, there was the prime minister so and so Nabulsi, and the woman walked to
the prime ministry to ask for and they didn't call it quota then, portions for the
women, it means... it is quota actually, but its like shares, it means share, especially,
we want shares for women in every location, so I said, actually, maybe they followed
us, because we were before them, and when you bring some facts, you should know
the facts, because every time they say, when you ask for something, even if it is very
Islamic, such as Kholou (marital separation), have you heard about it? Because in the
previous personal status law, there was one item which is very Islamic, you know
because the prophet used to speak about any wife that comes to him, he is fantastic,
he is an open man, and maybe it had a sexual connotation and then he encourage it
[inaudible: 06:21]... she said but I can't stand him, which means to stand him, maybe
to me it explains more as bodily, something like that, although he is the best of men,
and then the prophet told her because he is like the judge, what did he give you for
your dawery? She said he gave me a farm or a garden. He said okay, you can give
him back the garden and leave him, but he used the term (Ikhlaei), which means
shed him, when you shed your cloths, but we said they brought back the Kholou,
because it is Islamic, I don't know, somebody... it depends on the committees, and
then the men got mad, everyday in the paper, jokes about it, talking about it, that if
the women now, if the man will tell her I don't like your cooking today, she would
say "I swear I would shed you", you are making us like traps or something like that.
Really! In the conference they said we became a joke, like a joke, you make the men
of the country like a joke. And so this time, first they wanted to change it, the men
are against it, so they make the amendment, they want to change but everyone got
mad. And princess Basma, because she is the head of the Jordanian National
Commission for Women, and of course you know Asma Khadir, she was working over
there, we are all... I knew her long time, and now she became important more. So
she is also a senator, and she was studying and studying and she said, let us look in
the Quran, and although by the way she was Christian, and I didn't know that except
recently, after I knew her for a long time, because she is a bit reserved, because
sometimes they say the Christians are a bit wild, I don't know, and her name doesn't
show anything, so and she said, I will go back to Quran, because it speaks about all
these things, so the Quran said, if you are not happy with your wife, don't be nasty
to her, let her go in good will. I don't know what they call it in Arabic, Ibraa, just let
her go, let her go, so its called Ibraa, which means exactly that she has the right to
ask for Ibraa, whivh is the same, but Kholou, they thought it was very humiliating for
the man, so they went to the supreme judge, but it was I don't know, Asma said she
29


was the one who came up with it, but maybe some other people, and maybe... the
princess thought to write a letter from the national commission then they put it
back, so we have it now, but under another name, which we don't mind I mean.
Because a woman can go to court and ask for this Ibraa. But some women say it is
not good because not all women can use it, because some poor women they don't
have money to give him back or they have sold the thing that they gave them, so but
my idea is that let the women who can use it, use it. Because sometimes in Egypt,
she is a minister or a very important woman, but she can't divorce at all, because he
makes problems for her, of course they can make problems all the time, divorce
course here they take long and they are very stingy, there are orders in Islam to fend
for your children, now they say, they swear on the Quran that they don't have
money and they give one 20 Jds per month or 40 which is nothing. So at least if a
woman can revel out his money, let her use it, maybe in the future we will change
the law or something, some people are against it because, because they cant use
Kholou except the rich women, but at least something to get. So this is the personal
status law, which is the most important law, which I think is the most important law,
which regulates... in every country not only... and the proof on that is that most
countries with reservations to CEDAW they specify the family law because they think
its very internal matters, but many of them withdrew the reservation, like Turky and
Malasia and you know many Islamic countries, but here there are sometimes books,
I don't know where the book on CEDAW, there is an Islamic organization, NGO, and
they produced 2 books on CEDAW, but its all lies and its different, so one of them
says, we like to deal with you Lamees, because you are always neutral etc. because
when I say about CEDAW, I don't say it's the best in the world, I say maybe many
things it missed, violence against women, and some people say in this book, they say
it called for homosexual marriages, or lesbian marriages, and this is people were like
Oh! And get mad when they hear that, but so... it doesn't say that. One time I took
the CEDAW booklet, I went to the man who said that, and I said please, can you
show me where because I teach about CEDAW and I study it, but it never said,
maybe it is something I missed, can you show me, so he looked and his friend came
with him, and then he said, it doesn't say here, but the explanation of it is like that.
And they say in your book they say there is an items that call for homosexual
marriages, I said, between you and me, it was in the fashion in the 70s, maybe now if
CEDAW come now, it will put. I wanted to be nice to him. Sometimes yes, and many
time, USA is not part of CEDAW, I say sometimes, thank god, USA is amongst the
countries that didn't ratify, it just signed and until now, because they keep saying
you keep following the USA. Sometimes I see diplomats from the USA, women I can
talk to, I tell her, please don't push your government to ratify CIDAW now, because
we using you as a pretext, because everybody now is against the war in Iraq and
then everybody is against USA and they don't want us to do anything like her, so
please, take your time. Oh Lamees, you are funny! I am rude, maybe she wanted to
tell me. But after I got to know them, they recognize I am using it every time,
because if somebody comes a parliamentary, I say thank god USA is not part.... And
they say why? And they are amazed. Because I looked into why, and every time it is
put in front of the senate, the religious factions in the senate are against it. So they
are sort of like us, mostly Jewish and those, new Christians or something like that.
30


But Israel I think, the same reservations like us, because we are cousins. It is funny,
anyway. I am supposed not to do so much talking but.
NP: No, you have to, this is your... this is why I am here to listen to you.
LN: to help your research... I believe especially [inaudible: 14:23]... is very important
for the Palestinians and they are the first ones, they are very smart, the West Bank,
they do very good work on women's rights and everything, maybe at first, the EU
gave them great support, and I don't know, maybe they have, they can maneuver,
even before the authority came, they had some more freedom to do things, and
they have now a very big projects, because they say that the Americans and the
British and the Jews, they steal our history, and they are targeting very old men and
women, even about social matters and also about women's rights and all these
things, and making books, and I think this is very important, because the books look
at different things, but when you hear the life stories, its different, so I congratulate
you on this subject.
NP: Thank you.
LN: so what is the name of the whole thing, the formal name of the project? Yeah.
NP: the project. This is the name of the project here.
LN: oh, I am very sorry.
NP: No, its okay. But this is not...
LN: the Middle east a personal and geopolitical...
NP: this is not the name of the book.
LN: maybe it should be geopolitical... geographical, where is the socio. Socio-
geopolitical maybe doesn't work. I will read it very well. Thank you.
NP: it is a play on the personal political, which was a feminist slogan in Europe.
LN: Oh, I am very sorry, I am not aware of the... I know what I read, it's very
[inaudible: 16:10]... and industrial and the pre revolution and pre... you studied
gender issues maybe...
NP: Yeah, my specialty is gender and politics.
LN: it is, when you think of it is politics, because for example, in the Muslim Brothers,
they have been always in Jordan, but low profile and part of the... but we notice that
now there is one period that they hijack all the syndicates, like the doctors and
engineers, rural... its amazing, and the nursing, at one point, because they work
slowly and deep down, and they use women a lot, they say a woman's place is in the
31


house, but when it is politics they bring out the woman. So suppose, I remember my
husband because he was a doctor, and they thought they would move here, in every
house, in our house here, because they said they are the nationalistic they called
themselves, we want to regain the doctors... and the did. Damn them, the last 2 or 3
sessions, Islamists, how did they manage to do it? And we used to tell each other its
because they are more organized, they are together, we the communist, the Baathist
fight, I don't know what, al the political parties play against each other, they work
together, so they become one big force and then they bring the women too. So they
worked very well, and they got it , it as a celebration, and then the engineers
followed and others followed because they learned from each other, now what they
do? They say the woman's place is in the home but when there is a syndicate
elections they bring buses, they have money, I don't know, now in Egypt, they are
the richest and they spend and spend and people sometimes don't go to elections
because they don't have money. And they say America created them, and they are
the ones who give them money, I don't know. But anyway, they bring busses from
Aqaba, from Karak, from everywhere for the elections of women, women coming to
elect them. So how come women should not be in public life, but when they need
them they bring them. So this is gender and politics right?
NP: exactly.
LN: especially, in the parliamentary elections, they go in groups and very organized,
while all the women, the Middle East, I mean, mid society or... I don't know whom to
call, the ones who always go for elections, but some women, they are lazy to go to
Aqaba, or they consider it a holiday, and they say, at the end the government in the
end will cheat in the ballot and so on, and no body will win from the ones we
selected etc. But you should always keep trying so this is very true. And in the
election they always put women in the sheet, in the list, or 2 or 3, some announced
in the middle, and some people they don't do. So they know how to play, because
they are very much [inaudible: 19:27]... so and usually also in the governments, like,
even in some cultured friends, some of my friends, one time, I don't know I wrote
something in the papers, and my friend sais, I don't know Lamees, now we have so
many problems, and those issues are not what we are worried about. Lets solve this
violence in the university that we are having now, those were things we never heard
of, like violence in general in the universities, people have different affiliations and
they quarrel and sometimes they kill each other, and many other things like
hospitals hitting the doctors, I am sure you have read in the papers.
NP: I never heard about this.
NP: Swear to God. I don't believe it, this is something very new, because people are
worried, they are violent etc. family of this, if someone died, where is the doctor?
And they start sometimes to shoot, and now the doctors syndicate have a problem,
everyday in the paper, they say, it's a problem of the judges they have be firm, no
pardon, in this society you go as a delegation to go for pardon, pardon each other
and so on, and I think this doesn't work, I think it should be legalized, so nurses and
doctors are being hit and the other group is teachers, somebody, if you expel
32


somebody from the class, you go and bring his tribe and... and this is a great change
in the society and everybody is discussing in the paper they don't know where to
start, maybe from the childhood or from the school, or how did it flare? It was
maybe imprisoned and it flared, and it even happened with one of our friends in Al
Hussein medical city, which is an army hospital and it is usually more respected, and
it has the army all the time and etc. so somebody waited and he even hit the wrong
doctor even... the person of the relative died and the doctor didn't see them to tell
them more, and he has very big stick, baton, it has a big, its very vicious, and this
doctor was putting his in the trunk of his car and he came and... he make like that
and it came on his head, and he stayed in the hospital, and he is a heart specialist,
imagine, even the family friends, she told me and she was crying, and he came to tell
them, and he said he is going to court, he knows his father and everything, but then
they changed their name, you don't know his tribe, they will hurt you in anyway,
maybe they will come to your home, or when you go out they will kidnap you, his
mother suppose, I mean, people make them fear, to fear something, and then she
said, that's it, everybody said that they will bring a big delegation and kiss the hand
of my husband and the doctor who they hit and I don't know, this was, I don't know I
became mad for a moment, so they solved it between each other, she said
everybody frightened us that they will hold it for you and kill him maybe next time.
Don't be afraid we are not a jungle but these things are... So this is some of the social
things really, so I don't know maybe it was... but then when you tell somebody they
tell you, everyone in the world was more safe maybe years ago. Because I don't
know why, I studied in philosophy John Locke, because some of the philosophers,
some of them say "a man is born evil and then he becomes good", and others say,
"man is born good and then he becomes evil", so I don't know which one is more
true. I used to think about born good, but I can't say, I don't know.
NP: it's a philosophical question.
LN: why don't you eat any biscuits?
NP: No, I am fine, I am fine, really. So why is it important for you to continue to be
active in this field of women rights and human rights?
LN: that is a very nice question really. Yeah, I always wonder, but yeah, I feel
satisfied, I feel satisfaction, besides, I feel it is expected of me and I like to do it and
also I always believe that if you don't get together with people you wither maybe.
Because sometimes, now, I have grandchildren, and sometimes my children say,
your grandchildren are more important, I tell them, sorry I cant, sometimes I want to
take somebody to school or bring him, I say no, because this is a very important
meeting and I want to attend. And I like because I am a researcher, I like to know
what is happening, its inner actually, and this is in me for a long time, continuing
education and the usual work, really, because I always, my husband used to make
fun of me, sometimes I say I used to tell him, even if I was Jackie Kennedy, I like to
keep working, he used to say, you don't know if you have millions, so I always
thought it is not for the money of... I mean this is when you go to the real work, but
this is of course voluntary, but it is good also when you come, when you have
33


research to make, and get paid for it, it is of course good. Because I have retirement,
it is not too much, not too big, retirement benefits, because again, the civil
retirement they didn't put for us the family benefits, like the man they put that he
has for the husband and the children, the three children, so it is more than the
woman's, but now the social security is different, but because we are government
employers... so this is why I always believe that "work is worship", really, and there is
something nice in our parliament hang, also, this is a saying of the prophet but
people only do the other things, God love that when every Muslim does something
to perfect it, and it is a very nice one, so I was very happy that they put this sign in
this parliament, and of course most parliamentarians are mostly absent, they put 50
absent, 70 absent, if you follow. So really I like, I think it is a satisfaction for me,
because people sometimes say its okay, but if people say that I should stop
bothering because there is now way. Like when we used to work on girls kept for
custody you know, honor crimes, usually, you know, for those people to be
protected, if they are, if she is pregnant, she runs to the government and they put
her, because there is no other homes, they put her in the prison, a special section to
protect her from her family, and many times the family would come and they say we
pardon her, and then they take her, they marry her to one of the relatives and so on,
but always even they told us, we have a big study in 90s... maybe there is a little
change since then, and they say, head of the prison or the director, he say I know
that when she goes out they will kill her but then we say maybe this time they
changed and maybe sometimes at the outdoors of the prison minor brother kill her,
because if he is less then 18 he has less punishment, or pardoned for killing, so I used
to think this is, we are sick of talking about this but we have to go on, but there is
although some years, comes a break through because another sister agency Mizan,
they had another project and they were trying to see if some families will get back
their girls. And they succeeded in 2 cases, but I said I am really astonished, this is
really a break through because for me I thought this was a wall, because over the
years no body succeeded in this, they are always killed, but one of them her mother,
her father had died, and the big uncles and so one, so she told them she is our
daughter and she brought her home, and they didn't know what will happen to her
later, and one of the mother, with her help, she sent the daughter abroad. So it is
very difficult, because these things are set, although sometimes even if she is a
victim, not her, she didn't go around with... but the thing, that's why I like to keep
working on the things, I am maybe patient, maybe although sometimes there no
breakthroughs but then they happen and I think that means we have to go on.
Although I always notice in the Bedouins, they don't have crimes of honor, beside
the tents and they are mixed together, so one time I asked, and they said, because
they still respect the head of the tribe, sometimes if one is pregnant or sleeps with a
man, she would go to the... they always like to solve the problem, so they marry her
to her lover or something like that... but as you go to civilization it becomes more
difficult, they like to kill her to wash the honor, and I remember this is... we came to
a new subject, but I remember because I was one of the researchers in one of this 97
I think, we went to all the prisons to meet the victims and the perpetrators.
TAPE 6
34


LN:... and it is funny because, both of them are in the prison this one for protection
and this one for punishment. But we also distributed for women organizations so we
got maybe 500... to ask them about if they were hit if they were... etc. and the thing
is in one of the prisons I remember I used to, when I finish, of course I used to be
scared because I thought those were criminals but I thought they were in the rooms
and we had police officers around us, and I remember one of them he was little
educated and he looked smarter than the others, and he killed his sister, and I was
telling him, and now if life goes back with you, would you do the same?
Unfortunately I have to do the same, because I couldn't raise my head and walk in
my tribe or between my family if I didn't wash, they wash the shame with blood. And
he said, even if I don't believe in this I have to do it. So I said, oh my god, maybe the
world is sicker than I thought. This guy maybe some people regret it, but he said,
unfortunately, although I don't believe in it, but if I want to stay with this family and
this tribe I have to. Because they associated with the women, but men always do un
honorable things, so we still have, but now, many people discover that they take,
they pretend that it is the issue of honor but it is an issue of feud and inheritance or
something, and they say they killed her to wash our hands, so the families have to do
some... and this is completely non Islamic, because people think Islam... because in
the real religion when you read, if you want to accuse somebody of adultery, you
have to have 4 witnesses who have seen the actual act and they say [inaudible:
2:05]... sometimes I am bashful to read it, which means never, because it is
impossible to have 4 who see this, and there are many stories about the prophet and
the Caliphates who came after him, that support that, but it is more societal, and I
always say a social tradition are stronger than law and religion together because
they are so instilled I mean. You think... they believe firmly in them and they are
instilled in them, more than the law and the legal stipulation and the religion, so you
ask me a little question and I go to all the other things...
NP: it is very interesting.
LN: interesting, this is why I love... this is why I said about Jackie Kennedy, because I
used to tell him if I was Jackie Kennedy I would still like to work. Because, and she
used to work actually, because she used to publish, when I read about her, I thought
she was smart really. Maybe even for her own fun and not for the money, but it was
a big publishing organization. This is it. And also when I did the masters everybody
make fun, because I was in Al Quds open university and I said maybe I will get into
the counseling section and so on, because now, although... because it went back to
the West Bank, that's why. But that's it I started and I finished it. But then I said,
maybe its my education or the family, but usually because, the Americans,
sometimes the education is good, sometimes you start to believe in continuing
education, I believe in that but I don't know why I believe in it, maybe because I was
in Friends or the AUB, or maybe its character of my family, but I always believe that
you learn something new, but now there is something bad of me, I am a
procrastinator, in few things, but mostly, since I was in high school, I wrote stories
and in my university years and I have some, but I don't know, I am 2 coward to
publish, and sometimes I see young girls I don't know, 19 or 25 or 30 or 40, and she
is... then I envy them and I say, that's nice, they are good enough to publish, but
35


sometimes lately I am thinking of that, many times with my friends they say you
write nicely and some of them, but maybe when you look at yourself, maybe it is
not interesting for others to read and I am a good reader, but I like to read anything,
so maybe some people are like me. So I always thought there is time, there is time,
there is not so much time, it is better if I want to do something, and one of the
schools we went to see projects of my relatives, younger in bachelor school, and one
boy because each one produced a project, his project was, his grandmother, was
writing a lot of literary things, maybe his mother told him or something I don't know,
anyway, he collected all her papers and he put them in a book and worked on it and
made it as his project, so I was really, it felt nice, I said oh my god, so I know
somebody will do it for me, it is funny, but it is nice these projects for kids because
these are 16, not very small, 15, 16 and one of them, like one of them my relative,
my niece, she made a small book about music the old music, all the 60s music she
called it and she put very nice things about Um Kalthoum, Arabic, and the Beatles
and what are they called? Elvis Presley, and it was nice, and she put them on a CD
and she made a book, they are really nice these projects. Schools were different in
our time, of course we used, I always was in the Journalism club lets say in my high
school, and in my, sometimes I keep these things, and I look at it and say nice, and
when I was in Beer Zait college, they used to have, it was just 2 years, a contest on
best short stories, I always saw one, me and another guy, one of my colleagues, we
were the first two we always won, we won 2 years, I don't know if he did anything.
So sometimes you need to be, and even the other day, I saw an old friend in
university, she came here for an operation and long time we didn't see each other,
so when we teach education and psychology, there was no syllabus for the, they just
put us the items of the syllabus and no text books and we were working on what to
give, we really worked hard, because we would go to the library or use our notes
from the university and so on, and we had some material, so this lady after we
worked two years together she said, Lamees, there are no books on the introduction
to education, lets make a book for it, and I said, we, impossible, how? We just
graduated yesterday, but now I regret it, when I saw her, I always think of you, you
were better than me, why didn't you force me? Because really sometimes over the
years, when I look over the notes, I translated many things from other text books
and things... and then some other people I know, one of mu cousins, he is in Jordan
university and he is the one who make, I should have made that book, introduction
to education about the primary things that we used to teach, sometimes, its not
under value, but maybe we are brought up like that, like only the bigger ones will
make this, but now we have those who are very young, what about you? Are you a
writer too?
NP: Yeah, but I only write my academic work.
LN: Academic work.
NP: I haven't tried to write any fiction or poetry, no.
LN: or poetry, it is not a big deal but it is just, something comes, imagine! But it is
better when one has the confidence, sometimes I do it for myself and they tell me,
36


sometimes, then why do you write it? I say for myself, I sometimes think of
something and I want to write it. But maybe I will bring someone to retype, because
something in my head, writings. And something, and sometimes I used to be in some
work and I would give the secretary to make, but we were never aware to keep the
CD or keep the... as if they are not tagged. Now everything computerized. And even
the letters, the others when we discuss the young generation, they say you were
lucky because when you fell in love you had some letters to look at, everything we
had is massages and we don't have anything in our hands. I thought it is very
interesting really.
NP: it is true.
LN: and some people after years, like old government people, they publish letters
and so on, but now there are [inaudible: 10:27]... in the minds of people.
NP: Emails.
LN: What?
NP: Emails.
LN: yeah, and you have to delete every time, yeah, like my daughters one of them...
where is... this one the one who is married because her... did I tell you...these are my
grandchildren, this is Christina and this is Farah.
NP: Very beautiful.
LN: but Farah here it is engagement day, because I didn't make big one for her, I told
her your sister brought me the big one.
NP: Very good.
LN: You know I remembered them why, because I was saying, because she used to
work in the Arab bank, and this is where she get... and always she had many, you
know in Jordan we have suitors, they come from any... to ask for the hand of the girl,
but not necessarily saw her before. Some girls don't accept that, but when she
worked in that bank, she said, it deteriorated bank, because she used to work with
foreign banks, but this is where she found her husband, and one time they made a
workshop and she was upset because not so many interesting people then he was
sitting beside, there cars were beside each other, so they got to know each other,
but then I told her how did you... because they were in different buildings and
different section she said, all of a sudden I got an email, so he knew her name, and
they got introduced by the email and then they started to see each other of course, I
said really, email is good, because sometimes you want to invent one way, because
my husband he was a doctor in Zarqa and I was teaching in Ajloun, and we were in
love, and I used to wait until the teachers room is empty to be able to call him
suppose, and there are no other way like the mobile or fax.. I always say that my
37


husband makes fun of me, you only think life there is for lovers, its for everybody, I
say no, but I am remembering for waiting for a right moment to be able to make a
call for you, I don't want people to hear that I have somebody for example, and
when there is no body in the teachers room I go and start the phone, and there was
only the land line of course. And you know something like that, and at home,
because you are afraid that somebody else will... the usual thing, although they
know him he is a relative in the family, but still so I say now it is very easy, if I have
my own fax you can send me a fax and I can read and anwer, and all these inventions
and the most fascinating one for me until now is the fax I don't know why. Like that,
I was wondering how I put a paper here and it goes to the Un ited States after 2
minutes it is there, although other things are more fadcinating now, maybe the
telephones, the mobile, but I keep thinking I am more fascinated by the fax. Maybe
because it was the first thing like long distance or something. Unbelievable, because
before you used something called telex, and I don't know, maybe you don't know
the names now.
NP: I don't remember telex. But the fax was the first.
LN: I cant remember what the telex... and even now, I was telling you about Cipher,
because it is a secret diplomatic thing, communications, it is all numbers, and there
is a key but not, I am sure they can do it by many other ways, but I never thought to
ask, but when I went to the embassy I should have asked what do you use now
instead, in the 70s it was different. You go and they put for you all numbers, suppose
15C3, and they have a key that changes every 2 months, and the key is here, and
everything so for this month what does this number stand for? So you only put the
letters and then you start, after you finish all the page you start to make words. Its
like the official governmental language, all in numbers and this is the Cipher when I
told you, maybe I should have noticed, but what is she doing what is she talking
about? [Inaudible: 15:15]... so I am sure there are the emails and they could, and
there are other things, maybe you can create something nobody can come to it, I
don't know, the most...
NP: is there anything I didn't ask you that you think is important that you must tell
me?
LN: let me think, like, no we said it all, maybe I should have read this before, like
there was the women's [Inaudible: 16:02]... they raised one of the mottos that a
person is political so this is very important and it comes out of this, there is nothing,
and it is true and this is the way I know, because I work with gender and sometimes I
train, but I didn't study this jargon and it is true, because sometimes it depends on
the politics, because when there was a communist party and it started to reign, they
wanted women to be everywhere and to work, and in other eras they wanted
women to be in the saloons so it is very political when they wanted laborers, they
used women, also in old revolutions they used women, and now when the Arab
Spring revolutions, everybody is complaining about that the women in Alexandria,
and they said they use the women, and then that's it, when they finished the
revolutions, you stay in your house, and sometimes they suspect that some factions
38


are sending these people in for sexual harassment so to keep women at home. And
that's very true. So I wonder what will happen it is political. I will leave this on. Long
CV you will get tired of it, and this is before, the EU format, and this is how they put
it, when I used to do my own format I put on the first page all the things I did and
then inside the details, so here...
NP: this is great, you have everything.
LN: because in the EU, they wanted this format, because one time there was a
project they wanted everything, look, this is their description even, the duties and
the position, the company and the location, sometimes it is difficult to, we received
a fax.
NP: thankyou.
LN: this is if you want to about the organizations I will leave this for you also if you
like to look at it.
NP: yes, thank you.
LN: and this is Warrick University.
NP: thank you.
LN: Izzaldin Ibrahim, poor man he is getting old, and tired but maybe you met him...
39

Interview with Lamis Nasser
2014

TAPE 1

Nicola Pratt: Okay, I hope this won’t bother you, to put it here.

Lamis Nasser: No, not at all. Well, currently I am more involved with the NGOs, I had an NGO called the Human Forum for Women’s Rights, its about women’s issues, especially discrimination and violence, and also in my own right I am a researcher and a consultant, also on human rights, women’s rights, gender issues, and specially SIDA, you know, the international conventions on the women and the children, the convention on the rights of the child, and the international convention on the illumination of discrimination against women, so, this is what I am mostly involved in now. But actually I went to the AUB, American University if Beirut, I studied psychology and education so I started my career as a teacher, but I was appointed right away you know, so I dealt with bigger girls, I mean, not girls education, but you know, the appoint women usually in the ministry of education because I was on a scholarship, and I taught in the colleagues, the teachers colleagues, you know they are called community colleges. It actually was, there were only two in Jordan so I taught in both, one in Ajloun actually and one in Ramallah. So, I mean I began my career as a teacher of psychology and education of course and in charge of the supervisor of the teachers training, we appoint them to go to schools and… but then I don’t know, for one reason or another, maybe I always had allergy, although we didn’t use the board too much. They said that in teaching I always lost my voice, I still do, well anyway, I was interested in the foreign ministry, so I sat for the exams and I entered the foreign ministry as diplomat and I served in London, one of the… Maybe it was an early post, no it will see, because when you are married and you have children, sometimes you refuse the posts, but… and I did my masters much later, so sometimes people say, “they said something about you”, because I graduated very early 1965, my BA, and my Masters I took here at the Jordan University it was in 1995. So 30 years in between, and many people say how did you remember… I said, because when you are in the foreign ministry, and it is not a very academic atmosphere, everybody, sometimes, very few go abroad to stay 6 or 7 years, or in Germany or anywhere they seek doing their Doctorate degree, but very few. Even myself, when I went to serve in London, I took all my certificates, but my husband he is a medical doctor, a gynecologist, so it was first, because he met me and everyone would say, it was in the 70s, how did you convince your husband to come and join… I said no, it was good for him, because he wanted to… he had a scholarship in Ireland for one year, like DG its called or something… but then he went with me and then he left his other, and joined other hospitals because in London they have to work in teaching hospitals and sit for exams and they get a salary… even I finished my term before he finished his, coz it is really tough, so he is graduate of London too. So this was highlight of my career but maybe I am mixing between things but no problem. But I was the first married lady who gets a transfer, because always, there are lots of girls in the foreign ministry and usually when you are married, people think you are not getting a transfer because you will not carry your husband with you, wherever you go, or your family. I went to the foreign ministry in 69 actually and this was the London era, or period, it was from 73 until 78 something like 5 years, but then, this is something I always mention when you are following the women’s growth and… because and I don’t know why I stopped… because I served in the foreign ministry 17 years, so maybe, I stop there, and maybe later we come to other things. Because when I got the transfer it was my turn and everything and I was one of the good ones, a very good English I knew some French, because when you enter they make exam you submit to the British Council, and the French Center, but they send it very weak wen translating to French, but very strong because my Arabic is good, it is very good from the other way around. But I managed, and it was amazing that this knowledge I always get, people from other ministries to send, please what this telegram say, you know, I use the dictionary and I manage, but now when I look back I say, they are courageous and I am courageous, because I am not that strong, but the people were few, but now there are many people who know French in the foreign ministry. So, they faced a problem in the ministry, I remember they told me the administration, they said because this is the first time a married lady, of course I got into the ministry when I was not married, then I got married and I had a baby while… then. So, they said because we don’t know how to give you all the benefits, because it is always said the wife gets this and this, the diplomat is always a man, and maybe according to the diplomatic charter we have to give you everything because you are the diplomat but according to Shariaa, or we discussed this with Awqaf Ministry (religious affairs) imagine, 1973. We discussed this with Awqaf ministry, they said legally they deserve all this, but religiously or Shariaa wise we cant give her husband, I mean, he can’t benefit from her to take air tickets, like usually we have benefits like air ticket, like we have benefits for the child or husband or partner, whatever. But I was happy that we were able to transfer, I mean I didn’t mind… sometimes, we should have fought for it maybe, because now it has changed, so this, and they said, we are very sorry because according to the charter you deserve this but according to Shariaa law, maybe because everybody you know, interprets the Shariaa law in his own, but you know if you study about Muslims that they say Islam for every time and place, its for all times and eras, so they should understand what the prophet say and do accordingly, but its becoming… it’s the other way around, going to the back, so this is some of the highlights, but even now that I am thinking of discrimination, even when I was a teacher, because I was from AUB, they announced the community jobs in the ministry of education and it was something new like educational television and I wanted to… I thought, this is nice. So I went and applied and everything and the British council was impressed and they told me that I wad the first one chosen, number one, they choose the best three, and I was not married yet, so I was very happy to go three months to England and study about education and television, but then the education ministry called me, the minister or under secretary and he said, you know, we are proud of you, and we know you are the first but we are very sorry because you are a young lady, maybe you will get married and you will not concentrate on this job, but I don’t know, maybe because we were bread in that sense, always accepted the things, and I was always proud that I was chosen, this is better than going… I don’t know, so sometimes, I look back and say, this was stupid, I should have a raw and I don’t know, maybe I couldn’t have worked, but they said we have to choose the other one, who is a man, the next 2. And it was simply because of that. You are not married and you will not serve us, because they are going to send you to the British Council will pay money and so on… So, this was, these 2 things I always remember, and you know, even at the Jordan University, because I was a graduate of 65, the first thing I thought of, although I knew I was on scholarship, I knew it would be better if … I know that I should settle in government, but sometimes you can get by, so I went to the Jordan University, because I wanted… we call it assistant, I don’t know in English what is it, when a fresh graduate works in the academia… assistant…

NP: Yeah.

LN: In Arabic they call it “Mueed”, why? I don’t know, it sounds different to me.

NP: Teacher’s assistant.

LN: So I remember I went with one of my relatives who knew the president of the university, so he said, I am sure, and I looked at your papers and your personality is nice and so on, but unfortunately, until now we don’t accept women in this position, Really! I said why? Because in Egypt I hear many young ladies who graduate, they get attached to the university and they are assistants, many, more than other… he said, we didn’t start it at the university yet, and so on, so 65 was not very far, maybe a bit far, but I thought… then, because it is in the whole world, it was… when we look back now, I think it was a very advanced years 60’s. Even in the fashion and the Beatles, and all these things, I always followed these things, and it was the sex revolution and the freedom, and it was really, and even in the Middle East, it was advanced in freedoms and liberties, even the personal freedom. Its clear I mean, how it didn’t reflect on other things, so that’s how I didn’t get into the university, but I mean, this is the context but of course there was, I always felt there was some strong, maybe silent, slow, but there was a women’s movement always, and there was some, even when I was a student in Jordan, there were some youth clubs, and some… but you know the place which was very active in this, was YMCA, usually in all the world it is like that. So there was something called “Shabeebeh”, the Youth Group, which was fun, and we went, I remember I went with them to Beirut, and there was some big conference by the way, and I when I went I discovered that this is something… because I was brought up in Ramallah, in Friend’s girls school, this is an American school, Mennonite, Sorry, Quakers… unbelievable, those are things I thought I would never forget, but I think, no, another teacher was a Mennonite, this was Quakers, the priests who don’t wear as a priests, they look like [inaudible: 12:50]… so it was I mean, there was some liberty, maybe now girls go more, but it was not a coeducation, because there was a Friend’s boys school, and Friend’s girl school. But we took some courses together, this is back long time ago, maybe now people look at it in suspicion, I don’t know, so what did I want to say? Yeah, and there was, I used to go to these conferences in Beirut, and at the end of the conference they discover that I am the only Muslim in the conference, and it was something, and I didn’t feel it because I was with all my friends, and imagine, usually in the 60s, 70s and sometimes 80s, I think the society was more open, we didn’t know who was from this religion and that religion, really. I was brought up like that, because I write in Ramallah and Jerusalem and everybody… and until now it is inside me, I mean, some people right away they like to know if you are this religion or that, so they said, they insisted at the end of the conference that I should be the one who said the prayer, and I said I don’t know how to say prayer whether Islamic or… and he said, write anything you feel, something humanistic or something, so I tried my best, and everybody like it to say something in general, human. So this is also, this shows about society, again I think, in certain places except technology maybe and the computer and everybody is holding a mobile, and not talking to each other, other than those things, I think the society was more open. Maybe this is everywhere, maybe in the States or in England, I don’t know. But in the States, definitely, because now there is a rise of religious fundamentalism all over the world, I mean not only in the Muslim world, look at Mr. Bush, he is from conservative Christians, something like that. But on the NGO level, I was always also like when, after I served in London, I came back from 1980, really, especially, after YMCA, [inaudible 15:13]… I was always a member of like, there was very good women’s organizations, athought I was in the foreign ministry and very busy but they cashed on that, every time you make events for the ambassadors wife, Lamees, you phone all of the…. Then I call because I know them, oh, its charity, and they love it because you know, you make a bazar and they bring things from their countries, something like that. So I was… and I was also in the executive committee because I always write well, so I was like a reporter, in Arabic sometimes they call it a secretary, but its like a reporter, “Ameenat Al Sir” (The Confidant), in Arabic it has a nice name, it means the one who is charged with a secret.

NP: Yeah.

LN: In Arabic it’s a nice name, every time I write something in English, I don’t know who told me, maybe reporter looks not that little or secretary, maybe for the Arabic population. But you know, abroad, they call the minister secretary of state, but here, they say, not secretary “Ameenat Al Sir’ is different. Some people say, so these are things, but I have been always working, but sometimes I think that its not that I was empowered or my husband was empowered, maybe sometimes the circumstances serve you, because when I first got married and I got pregnant, I thought maybe now, I will have the baby, I am sure I will resign, maybe we will also cut that, its not… no body tells you you have to, but sometimes you think, maybe this is the way. But I remember, we both needed that I keep working, my husband is a doctor but we have a lesser, we were both in the government, but it was fun, I enjoyed my work very much. But you know, because I was the first one to have a child and family, I made my mother a grandmother, so she said, don’t think if you sit at home and bring Emad or somebody, because sometimes it is still available until now, don’t think I will allow you, I will go to your house and check on the baby, so don’t do this to me and bring him here everyday. So she was still younger, so I was the only one who got the advantage of this, so everyday, it was fun for us, we would go in the morning we would have a nice breakfast and leave the baby, and Amman you know, had no traffic anyhow, it was in Jabal Lawibdeh, my parents. So, I kept on, so after a few years, less, not much, my son 8 months when I got the transfer, and they my husband started to talk to the ministry of health to send him… and I was furious, I said he will go, but we cant afford to go together, and he will go just one year and come back, so I started to say to the foreign ministry, because they think that if you are married and you have the baby you will no go anywhere, you know, in the foreign ministry everyone, there is a precedence, who is before me who is after me, it is my turn now for the transfer, So they removed my name, the guys I mean, not the ministry, my colleagues, so I worked on it a little bit, so I skipped many times, and now I want, and it worked. Jordan has a “Wasta” you always have to talk to this and to that, to convince them that you have the right now, and because it was my turn before, but I let it go. So after, when we came after these five years, that’s it, I was near, because the retirement age for women, its for another 14 years if you serve, although now, later on when I became ?????? actress, I was against it, because that’s why women don’t go that far, after 15 years you are entitled to ask for retirement benefits, etc… and sometimes you are very young after 15 years of service, nothing, and for the men its 20. Now, very recently, only this year, it is not even passed yet by the parliament, they are equal, I mean, after 20 years, the government retirement, you can ask for retirement, because these five years you are at the top maybe than when you leave… and many women tend to leave because for one reason or another, I left after 17 because I was offered a better paid job in one international association and so on… etc. the teachers especially, because they have hard life, I don’t know, it happens with the teachers, they wait and wait until they are 15 years and they leave. But I don’t know, although it was meant to protect women, because it was thought maybe because of the reproductive process of the woman, that she gets more tired, although now in real life, the men get more tired than before, Really, when I look at my colleagues and everybody, so I stay, my longest term was with the foreign ministry. But then I went, if you see my CV, I worked in the Swedish save the children, as a psychologist and such, but then in also, there was a big opened university that was established in Jordan, it was an Arabic… Al Quds Open University, but now it moved to Palestine because Palestine national something, one of the supporters, and now, but it was really a pioneer, and I always feel that it was bad it was moved, because sometimes, the people who come in charge they start to mess with things, but now there is another one, but it was established in Kuwait and it was spread in the Arab World. And I remember I was sent to London to the open university to the Milton Keys, maybe for ten days we trained and so on, it was really nice for me, after coming from London, so it was good. I served also in this, it used to be called Queen Alia Fund, the Jordanian… I still have the old names in my head, Princess Basma, I’m sure its here, you heard about it, the Hashemite Fund for Jordanian development, but it was for long time called, the Queen Alia Fund, Now they call it “Juhud”, Jordanian fund for social development, it had, there were some projects and such, but then I went to other things, although I became early freelancing but I always tended to like the regular job, I don’t know why, although many people think otherwise, it organizes your life more, so I am very glad, that people tell me, even my girls sometimes, I had two girls after I came back from London, I said, lets get pregnant there, but you know, I go back after I was transferred, all the ministry the guys, although they are my friends and they like me, but its because I took the term of someone they thought, look, they are starting to transfer wives with ten children, I said I only have one child. I mean, because it was different for a married woman to be transferred out for Jordanians, so I was the first one in that. And then next to me somebody, another one, she was newly married, she was encouraged and she married newly and her husband used to work in emirates, even then the emirates were advanced, in Dubai, so she asked, she worked, and her father long ago was one of the first ministers of Jordan. So sometimes here, even if you know people who can talk to a minister… and she has the right to… and that’s even more forceful. So when I was in London, I heard that she was transferred, I was very happy for her, but the very funny thing, I always write it in my research as funny anecdotes, when she, but because I went with a child and I didn’t have children there, now this one goes, she was a new bride and she had the child there, in the emirates, and when she sent all her bills, again, they were faced with a new problem, because they have, they give them the money, for all the visits to the doctor for 9 months, for the doctors wife, I mean the diplomat’s wives, not for the diplomat, and they wrote her an official letter, I heard when I was in London, sorry, we can’t pay these bills they are not listed in the charter, the diplomatic charter because it mentions the diplomats wife and it doesn’t say the diplomat. It sounds funny, but it happened. And I never knew, because I know this girl until now, or maybe I should look it up, I am sure they solved it somewhere. Because they never things, because people are very bureaucratic, they never think that you know, the diplomat is a man, and his wife and children, that’s why I didn’t have any medical insurance, but my husband is a doctor so we always went to the… but suppose he was not a doctor, its very expensive in England, he was a national health doctor, and sometimes now, people think you are crazy, after I stopped being a diplomat and he was a national health doctor, and I went back with him, 7 years all together, people say, why didn’t you ask for the nationality, it was very easy. My children are always, you are crazy, you are not practical, you and my dad, and I say, when you grow up you will be practical with your children, because it never happened to occur to our minds. But some people it is stuck to their minds. So I mean, so I always think that I am lucky that I kept on working and sometimes, because the work is now more tough, I was a government employee, in Jordan, its slack, the government work, it used to be from 8 till 2, perfect for a mother, I always had help at home later on. But now, the mothers come very tired, because it is mostly private. One of my girls she is a teacher in the kings academy and she loves her work but she finishes at 4 and she never comes until 5 and this is really long hours, but also she has help at home, but she says, I want to see my children and they always tell me, you came very happy and alive and active, and where do you want to go or study or something, I said, also, my nature is like that first and also the work was not hectic, and I think until now, it is not. Because sometime you go to a new ministry, I mean, when I was in the foreign ministry I always filled my time, I used to take French, I used to have the French books, after I finish my work I would study this and I studied once Hebrew, something like that, and try to always take the bigger jobs, some say, we are all taking the same salary why should you bother? Something like that, but it depends on you and what you like to do, and as I said, maybe because it was near retirement, so I don’t want to loose my benefits, so I stayed on. But it was a way of life, then even when I left the ministry I was always free timing many other jobs, because the children became bigger. And now it’s the other way around, when they become in the high schools and such, I became a freelancer, I go to meetings and such, but the full time is difficult for a mother, are you married or not yet?

NP: Yes I am married.

LN: Really, do you have children too?

NP: No, no children.

LN: Yeah, because sometimes people think, especially the foreigners, that we don’t organize ourselves very much, even when I came from London, I was pregnant, and I had to look for a home, its me maybe… although my husband is a gynecologist, and we are not organized, sometimes every… I went after I came from my time I was pregnant and I had the baby here, although he was in a hospital and if we had the baby there she will get nationality right away, and also the second girl the same, I was with him, I took pay without leave, living in Harold in Essex, and it was very nice houses for the hospital and so on. But so I came back I was pregnant and I had an uncle, he used to tell me, you really choose the time, you are coming home, you want to find a flat and things, I said, I always saw that this is a normal thing, its better to think that. I thought it comes with your life, I read a lot about it and I was very particular what to eat and to do exercises and etc. but I always thought you can… in England I used to have some friends, we are not thinking of it now, because the mother, somebody is married to a foreigner, and was with me in the embassy, but a local employee, and I told him, you are married ten years, when are you having children, he used to say, because her mother is always sick and we take care of her, we don’t have time, and then we said, we are waiting until we move to a bigger flat but maybe this is after 2 years or 1 year, something like that. But I [inaudible: 29:55]… because I was younger and I am usually, I don’t know, I am optimistic, so I always told him, what does that have to do with a child, in Jordan you can bring your child anywhere, I mean, not really, I always took care… and look at the under educated people and the refugees, they are always having babies, and they grow up and some of them become scientists. It’s amazing, anyway, but of course, the children should come first because you can’t just bring them, but that’s why I am saying… but now these days the mothers are also working, they cant help their daughters as much as my mother helped me, so it’s a combination of things, but people do work, even in Islam, we say, work is like worshiping, imagine, which is very true, and I always speak from Islam these good things, which is… you know, and most of the others….

TAPE 2

LN: like the Islamic Brotherhood, we have to get back to them, they are fanatics they take just the very not wide perspective of Islam, or even Christianity, any religion, you should understand it widely not… some people even in Jordan, I am sure you notice they wear the Hijab, its like 90 percent I think, sometimes, in a meeting I am the only one without, but not in all, where I was yesterday? In a condolence, because here you have to go three days or one day, so yesterday there was some family, although a Muslim family, but they are very educated and advanced family,. I don’t know, from Jerusalem, called Al Farouqi, and I was looking all of a sudden and I told my sister in law, did you notice that non of the sitting, it was a very big salon not wearing a Hijab, its amazing, this become strange instead, I don’t know, maybe it happened when you were there, although it was full of this family, most of them are from Jerusalem, some people are very… I don’t know, so I think not life was easier, but maybe people think that all the time, because our parents used to say it was less expensive and easier and etc. So maybe its just a generation thing, so maybe I talked a lot, do you want certain questions to stress on things. I am ready.

NP: Okay, perhaps I could begin by asking also some questions about your background, where and when were you born?

LN: yeah, I was born in Jerusalem, of course it was, there was no Jordan yet, it was Trans-Jordan, and in December 1943. Really long time ago.

NP: No, still young.

LN: I say this sometimes, because inside you feel you are… I don’t know, so it was in Jerusalem actually. But you know afterwards, my family, he was an engineer my father, and was educated in Istanbul, so after the war, the Israeli occupation or whatever, after 1948 war, they you know, people, many people left out, but my father he got a contract in Syria so they went to Syria and I remember my childhood was in Syria and maybe for 7 years or more, he stayed there, and when he came back I was ten years. So many people, when we came to school, they say, you have very good Arabic because the Syrians are education is known to have a very strong Arabic. So at ten, it was a thing, but then it was very easy, we came to Jordan, of course, my mother, all her brothers are here in Amman, so she wanted to stay and my father got a job here as an engineer also, he served in municipalities and ministry last. But before in public works and you know these engineers in the government, and so I lived this part of my life in Syria, but then in Jordan, but then again some in Amman and some in Ramallah. Because also my father got transferred as an engineer to Jerusalem, and but we lived in Ramallah, because my parents wanted a school in Ramallah, the Friends girl school, but otherwise I was always living in… and always, I always thought that people change schools all the time like me, 7 years in Syria and then in Jordan in Friends, and then I was here, the sisters of Nazareth, so now I am amazed, now, I tell me children because they went to the Orthodox school, it’s a mixed one, all the boy and the 2 girls, and I tell them, I never thought that anybody can go to the same school until they graduate, this didn’t happen to me, its not bad, but I always thought… coz if most people used to work in the government and they used to get transferred sometimes to Irbid, sometimes to other places, so this is from the birth, but then I went to… the first years of Beer Zait college, Freshman and Sophomore, and this was, Beer Zait is very near to Ramallah, but it wasn’t a university yet, now it is a university, but the thing, that they had a contract with the American university in Beirut, and we took the same courses, so I also went on a scholarship to Beirut, both Junior and Senior years, and then I came back to teach, I was a teacher. Because I had to fulfill my scholarship and then the foreign ministry. But while I was a teacher I always, I worked part time in the Jordan radio, because the Jordan television came later in 68 or 69, I think. And I enjoyed this very much, because sometimes I think why didn’t I turn to the… it was in the English section, and you know, just after the war, because the Radio Jordan was stationed in Jerusalem, so after the Israeli occupation, they tried to set up something in Amman, and they started if they know people who know English and announced, so everybody got in touch with me, but I was a teacher in the morning, and I went but it was part time, maybe three days a week. This is one of the things, which is quiet nice and creative, because when you want to prepare a program, so… I don’t know, I always considered the highlight of my career actually, is the transfer to London, because I was 30 and I felt I was on top of the world, I was married I had one child, really, I always tell my children how I felt, and I like the diplomatic work very much, that’s why when I came back, every time there are new people at the British embassy they always contact me, oh Mrs. Nasser, you have been in London, and I became very good friends with them most of the time, you know how the British are. Its nice, this is something, I always, and they say, when I was in London I always felt, I didn’t go there long time, but I was there this December, because it was my 70th birthday, this is the first time I say it you know, it is very difficult this one, I am not very stupid in these things, but when I was 69 I said 69, but why this?

NP: you don’t look it?

LN: really?

NP: You look much younger.

LN: My dear! So they said we are giving you a ticket for London, I have a friend there a Jordanian married… and I said, wait how can I? I have to arrange, and they said that’s it you love Christmas, although its winter, but you love the Christmas and the New Year in London, so you have to go now. And they said we worked everything with your friend, don’t worry, she said what are the best dates, she always come to Jordan and stay with me, they live there but she is a Jordanian, and I feel like its home, maybe because when you are there and in one of the houses, one time, when we lived in Harold, Essex, because they give us, and I had a young son, and my husband always came, it was very hard work, he come very late and long weekend, sometimes 4 days, you know, he goes on Friday morning, Friday, Saturday, Sunday and then the Monday after work… so he suggested that and I said, I don’t mind to commute one hour, so for one year and a half maybe, we stayed, but it was very good for the child, because he was still not in the school age, and he was always, it was very nice ambiance I mean and in the hospital, they had somebody to look for him, and my husband always had lunch at home, and the neighbors all the doctors, so I thought of the child more than me. And besides it was good for me, I read all of Jack [inaudible: 09:00]… novels on the way, sometimes I missed my high street king stone, because that’s where the Embassy is, its still there, I’m sure when you got your visa. And it was, you know, because you said you look… it was raining that day, and I was walking and I said I will pass by the embassy, and I was just walking in the street under the rain and this guy said, I swear to God, this is Lamees Nasser, although I didn’t see him, he was one of the office boys, and he was there a very small boy, and now he has white hairs and so, but he was watching [inaudible: 09:43]… he was maybe 18 or something, and I said come kiss me and he said I will kiss you more because you recognized me, and he said I knew it, this is Lamees Nasser. I was very happy, and I said this is the best thing that happened in London. They said look the woman’s ego, no, because I didn’t see him since 77, really. Or 78. So I said, you made my day, anyway. This is about London, its always good to live in other countries, you learn a lot, especially Britain, maybe when you are living there you think its normal, but actually, its something special I think, everything is and of course, and you know, because now when I compare the prices, we were living well, because in Jordan, of course the government, the payment is very little compared to private sector, but now when I think, this was very early in my career, I don’t believe it now when I say it, my salary when I was appointed was 35 Jd’s, and my husband because he was in the government, he is a doctor, he has more, so it was 70. But I don’t know [inaudible: 11:10]… or less than the benefits of the men, because to the men they will give to the child and for the wife, it was 350 JD’s. so it was really, we thought it was fantastic, but we were lucky not like the English or for England, but we arrived to England in the 70s, there was very… I don’t know what they say, the pound, the decay of the pound but not decay, it was the value…

NP: Devalued.

LN: Yeah, so every month it was 700, instead of 350, really, literally. And everybody would tell me to by things for them, mother care, if they send me 20 JD’s, its 40 and its cheap, so I was always sending to people things. But now, its not the same but its more expensive the English pound. So this is… and always my colleagues most of them become ambassadors later, but not me, I don’t know why, sometimes they bring anybody from outside the ministry, and he used to say, I hope all the time we stay here, the pound us down, but if we collect money, save money to take back, I hope it is up, as if its our, we used to joke about it, because it was lucky, because now people who serve abroad they think always that salaries are not enough, I mean Jordanians who serve abroad, but it happened. Because they used to say Bahrain is more expansive than London, I don’t know some countries, Japan… but maybe that’s because we were lucky, so, other questions. Sorry, stop me when I say stories.

NP: No, not at all, they are all very interesting. Do you remember anything about Jerusalem?

LN: Yes of course, because when we were children and we used to come from Syria. We always went to families who were in Jerusalem. So of course I remember very well. And because I served after graduation in Ramallah, which is very near, 15 minutes to Jerusalem, so we always to concerts or main events or visiting family in Jerusalem, people don’t think of Ramallah and Jerusalem… of course now, it takes a long time. If you go recently, you will be amazed, because in Amman, even Jericho, I mean the family of my husband is a relative of mine but his family had a big land in Jericho, so always sometimes in the evening, anybody can say, lets go and have… because there were many casinos and things on the Dead Sea there, and everybody will go just for the night because its half an hour from Amman, and to Jerusalem its one hour to Ramallah, but now, of course, to go there, you stay at the bridge 5 hours, 10 hours, depending on the Israeli group who is in charge, sometimes, before it was one day, and we would stay one day when its 15 minutes, this is very sad. So I attended all that, and of course, I love Jerusalem, because it is a very special city, especially the old town, fantastic, sometimes I write short stories or something, I remember once I wrote about the smells and if you go there, you have to go…. And of course every town has its… the specialty of it is the old town, but maybe Jerusalem is more, and it had always been international, where you go inside there are Christians and Muslims and Assyrians, Armenians and in the schools, we had al those kinds of people, but we never thought we are different, so many times, people sometimes ask me, tat I am very, how do they say… Relative… sometimes the word just run from you away, I am very neutral, in these things, but I tell them, I am from Jerusalem so I am like that, to me a Christian and a Muslim is the same, so sometimes it is born with you, while sometimes, two days ago, because I was very busy doing a course last week, so I didn’t read all the papers, but I was very frightened, this girl in Ajloun she was killed, I don’t know if you read the Jordan Times, that a young woman, she is a Christian but she attended a lecture by a… because now it’s a fashion, they come, religious lectures, and she believed so much, maybe she was thinking of it before I don’t know, because they say she wanted to turn to Islam right away, and this is not done I our country, its conservative for either, its very difficult, so her family were very upset, and her brother or father, I don’t know, they followed her for sometime and they killed her. And now when the city, I don’t know where they said, in Zarqa or Irbid I think, I cant remember where I read, this is last week only, and then all the population of the town they were very upset, and they went to attack her family, why did you kill her because she become Muslim? As if it is defending their religion, imagine! And they broke their houses and killed some of their boys, and etc, etc. and then they went to the churches and started… there was one church or two, I don’t know which town, I even forgot that, they start to break the glass of the church, its amazing! People are getting crazy, I mean, Muslims and Christians. But because the majority are Muslims, so they are the crazier, its really… while before you never hear of such things, or it was done discreetly, yeah and there was the problem, because after they killed her they wanted to take her to the cemetery, even there was a quarrel on the way to bury her, and the town people said she is a Muslim now you cant bury her… imagine, they created a problem of no problem. So this is fanaticism. In Jerusalem, we also attended, as children or in high school when my father was there, because our home town is Selwan, its on the way you know, Al Jismanyah, it is near my home town, a small village, now it is a part of Jerusalem. And always when there was Easter or something my father took us to see the processions of Palm Sunday, what is Palm Sunday? It was two days ago. The celebration! The Sunday before Easter.

NP: The Palm Sunday.

LN: Palm! Because it has different Arabic name, “Shaneeneh”, I don’t know, maybe they call it a tree, which is palm, people call it differently.

NP: Would you like, we can have a pause if you want. Okay. Did you leave Jerusalem after the war started or before the war or…?

LN: No it was before the war actually, because then I was a teacher at Ramallah, a teacher in college and… but I lived before, because my father was transferred to Amman again, ad I was boarding with the students. Because this was the way when I was a teacher it was a boarding school for girls who want to become teachers from all Jordan. And the teachers who lived in Ramallah they came and went everyday. But because I was living in Amman I was boarding, although it is not very far, but always this was the system. But later I visited very few times, when I came from London one time, and yeah, maybe my husband, he passed away 6 years ago, when he had cancer, we once went to the treatment in the hospitals in Jerusalem, so I went there for visits, but maybe one month was the longest because of operations and so on. But I go after, but I know how it is, because his brother lived at Aizarieh, if you hear of it, just on the outskirts of Jerusalem, and he had a girl in the high school, and everybody have, you know, after this big wall, its very difficult to move, like the home town Silwan, is 5 minutes from Aizarieh, but there is a wall there, and you have to go maybe 45 minutes to get there, its very difficult when you turn to politics. And you don’t know why they do like that. I mean even now, there is Hamas who won democratically of course, but everybody fought them in Europe and of course they failed, because all the money that was coming to the West Bank, stopped to come, because all of Europe and the States and Britain, all Europe, they want democracy but if the one who won the ballots they don’t like, they fight him again, so now because they are making peace between them to become one government, because it was really stupid to have two governments in occupied Palestine, and now everybody is very worried. You know, you hear what Mr. Bush is saying and what Kiri is saying, they say we have to wait and see, maybe something will happen to the talks, this was not in time, etc… so this is besides the point, but it is very sad what happens to Jerusalem, and especially now, that its divided already into two cities, so we never knew the other side except after the war, because now you can go everywhere, but we used to know the Arabic part, when I was young, young and beautiful.

NP: You are still beautiful.

LN: so I know it, and I am always proud, but I don’t know, it never caused anything, sometimes we say, place of birth is Jerusalem, and I expect somebody to ask something, but its okay, no problem, because it was part of… and Ramallah was a part of Jordan when, I mean you know, the West Bank was with Jordan, if you know historically, so it was one country, and that’s why now, you have lots of people, it’s a great mix, although the rise of all those small nationalities, small things, now even in Jordan sometimes people say, this is Palestinian and this is Jordanian, and this is we never used to hear that before, even when I was in the diplomatic corps, there was a lot of people from the West Bank, and most of the Ambassadors actually. Because maybe they were more educated or the other ones who like these… but now you see mostly from the names you can tell its all pure Jordanian, so even our heritage is changing with the world, and when we used to take history long time ago, unification of Germany, unification of Italy, it was all unification, and the Arab unity, I am from the group that believe in Arab Nationalism, because I lived through Abdel Nasser, and its funny because I always thought I am a fan of Abdel Nasser, Nasserites now they call them, and some people were against him, but we are in the age group, that everything is Nasser, Nasser, even in high school, which was an American high school, all of us used to put sometimes the picture of Nasser, because it was like Nasser Mania, I don’t know, everybody believed in him, my Husband he was the contrary of me, he wasn’t in the party, he was in the Baath Party, he believed in their ideas, because he studied in Turkey, so I don’t know, for some reason I never asked him for it, I should ask his friends, he always used to tell me, you are a trifle Nasserite, like that, when we discuss politics, so I used to say lets not discuss politics, but at the very end, maybe like after 30 years of marriage, he said, maybe you are, and he is the politician, you were maybe politically more mature than me, because now I think back of Nasser, he is the only Arab leader that did not collect money for himself or his family, who lived in the same house until he died, who brought up very good children, who are in the society, which is very true. All the others became like kings after him, he said maybe you are mature, and I said thank you! But it was not a mania, like Um Kalthoum, if you know the singer, we always used to say Um Kalthoum and Abdel Nasser they are Pan-Arab, all the Arabs love them, but he died very quickly, the poor man. Maybe if he stayed, and what is good about him is that all the west was against him, because they don’t want a strong leader in the Arab world, of course its very clear because they don’t want anybody stronger than Israel, and this is our problem, and every age group, I used to think, when I become 50 or 60 or whatever, all the problems would be solved, because you know, the 20th century is the age of nationalism and independence, and no country will be under occupation, but it is going on and on, and unfortunately, all the world is supporting it, to us, its difficult, its not, I am a humanistic, I don’t say we should kill the Israelis or anything, because even in Palestine, my mother used to tell me, they used to live together very peacefully, there were many Jews in Palestine, and in many Arab countries, but specially in Palestine, and my mother used to tell me that the Jewish doctors are the cleverest ones, I never took you except to the Jewish doctors, so we hear those stories, which means we were living together, but this is politics, it has to be a country, that the west, specially USA now, and the funny thing, I remember when I first graduated, and in the British Embassy I had many friends there, they used to say, you know Lamees, it is amazing, when there was the Balfour declaration that give the Jews a homeland in Palestine, everybody walked to the American Embassy, and they wanted to… and they started to break the windows, no body remembered it was the British, because as friends we used to say that, because in History we know that it was the British who gave this… so its amazing to go to the American embassy, so you are happy… because people knew that later on, that’s it, maybe Britain stopped meddling and US took over in supporting Israel I mean, and other countries, etc… and this is about politics, but Jerusalem will always be sacred I mean, I think it’s a very special for Muslims and Christians, and sometimes I wish, although people say they can internationalize it, I think it will be good, because it will be for everybody, but the Jews don’t take that and the Arabs sometimes don’t take that, so I don’t know what will come next after a 100 years or 50 years, so that’s about Jerusalem.

NP: when you were in University in Beirut, what was that like? Do you have any memories of that?

LN: Yes, of course, it was really very nice, Beirut was the center of Arab culture in the 60s, again this was in the 60s, also in the 60 I was in London, and it was, all people wear the mini… sometimes although I didn’t because later I became a government employee, I didn’t wear the mini, mini, but sometimes my children look at my pictures, and it was over the knee, which is much, I always told when I go to the tailor, I cant wear this because, but many people… we had many poets coming to the university and it was the cradle of freedom in the Middle East, because the media was very free. And they were all with this side, or that side, but there was some kind of unity, I mean even now when I go to Beirut, in the university, all nationalities, and it was really fantastic, and always I like to think it was the nicest in the 60s, because afterwards, in the mid 70s, there was the civil war, and even they had to change the place of the University somewhere else, but this kept on, but it was safer to move to the east of Beirut or something like that, but there was a very famous Arab poet, Love poet, Nizar Qabbani, he is really fantastic and famous, and there was a very famous, I became later her friend, so I am proud to know those literary people in Beirut, Ghada Samman is her name, she lives in Paris now, and we are still in contact but sometimes people when they know I know Ghada Samman, Oh my god, because she had been writing, she started to write in 64 or… until now, and she is still writing, and she is very famous ones, maybe you don’t know the Arabic names of the… so it was really a very, very nice, and some people… also the first Arab… what’s the name? the first Arab summit, was convened when we were in Lebanon, so all the students were talking about that, it was convened in Egypt, in Alexandria, and even in March, I was invited by the Alexandria library, it was established originally by…

TAPE 3

LN:… Alexander the Great, Imagine! And Alexandria all was established by him, that’s why its called, but it was ruined during many times of the, over history, but now they built something, a huge thing really, if you go to Alexandria you have to go to this Alexandria library, Alexandria Bibliotika, they have the name is Greek, why did I mention Alexandria? Because of something… Yeah.

NP: The Arab summit.

LN: the summit yeah, and we went to the hotel, Palestine Hotel it was called, and they said that in Jamal Abdel Nasser time, they build this hotel in Alexandria especially to receive the first summit, and they call it Palestine. But it is still one of the most beautiful, I sent many pictures to my children, I was there in the end of March, I said look, I wake up in the middle of the night because its on the Mediterranean, I go to my balcony and look at the sea. Because here we don’t have a sea except the Dead Sea, but also you cant afford to live on the sea, but when you take this hotel and its outside your balcony its fantastic, so maybe this was in 64 the first summit, and everyone in the university was talking about it, I think it was a very cultured and educative atmosphere, and very free and this is what is freedom. But now, America and Bush, I don’t know, I hate Bush, I shouldn’t mention him, he doesn’t deserve, poor Americans, they are not that stupid, but he is really, every time he talked I didn’t think this is the president of the United States, and now he is a painter he is painting. Well, others now they have a brain when they talk, his father even was different from him. So now, because it was free in a sense, even the professors when we had our lectures, I was taking, I took a major in English Literature, and there was a fantastic British… he was a Shakespearean, I studied Shakespeare with him, and also many other courses, Curnel, different name, I don’t know. Professor Curnel. It didn’t sound British, I don’t know, maybe he is from Ireland or Scotland, I think. And he used, I mean when he analyzed literature, I don’t know for which book, but he was saying, that in this book, they say that Jesus Christ was a homosexual with john the Baptist, and they proved it. These things we talked about, and we say oh my god, sometimes I think now, neither for Muslims or Christians you can say something like that, and there was a motto of one of the professors, that sex and money is the motto of the 20th century. These are some of the things that stayed in my mind, I don’t know why. I mean, there used to be free dialogue all the time, I studied psychology and education, but my sub major was also English Literature, and of course it was free, no body in the 60s… even in Jordan University, which opened 69, there was no body with Hijab, it was not known, and even in villages the small girls put something and then they say, she is going to school, she has to remove this, it is not a rule but people thought that. So, I mean, its lucky to be in that time, I don’t remember now how many hundred or how many nationalities, but it was known to be a beautiful campus, one of the most beautiful in the world, I would like to think. And I remember sometimes when I met Sudanese, I always tell them, that if they make a questionnaire in the university to see who is your favorite nationality? And they write courteous, polite, helpful, all these things… and it was the Sudanese, imagine! They are really very nice, I used to have many nice friends, from Sudan, and I used to like them very much, but then when you… when all the university thinks that, it means sometimes I tell the Sudanese, oh they didn’t taught us very well maybe, or something like that. They joke about it, but truly, I remember even in Jordan, if people wanted to bring books, they would go to Lebanon, it was said that later when there was civil war in Lebanon, in mid 70s, that this cultural city became Kuwait, but then look what happened to it, because they have a very famous, not literary, magazine they call it. It was like a book, Its called Al Arabi, and it was very neutral very nice and it started maybe in the 50s, I know it from high school, and now it is still there, it used to be 25 p. but after the invasion in Kuwait it became 50. Which is still, every month, sometimes I don’t have time to read it, but I buy it because I am used to it, and you have, it talks about politics, and talk about.. and its an Arab one, sometimes there is a big thing on Yemen, sometimes on things we don’t follow very much… So, I sometimes I tell my children, they say why you always buy it mama? And I say try to read it, its beautiful, the new generation don’t read a lot, I mean all over the world, but this one, I remember our Arabic teacher in Friends, used to tell, we had to present a book every month. Summary of the book, which is good, you are obliged to read, but she used to say, she showed us this Arabic magazine, Al Arabi its called, this Al Arabi is really as valuable as a book, I will allow you if you review that one of the month, and you write about it, I will consider it a book. So, this also stays with you, and it is very nice. It means until now it is still a valuable one. So this is in Lebanon, because I stayed 2 years, I was in small committees but not big political thing, I wasn’t interested in politics.

NP: You were not interested?

LN: No, not much, except when the University was talking about the first summit, but of course I was a Nasserite as I said, because we adored him, but because also he had every month a very long, long speech. And I don’t know, maybe 2 hours or something, sometimes in classical Arabic and sometimes in Egyptian Arabic, very, very nice, and all the Arab world would stay… we used to do that in our family, because there was only the radio. And everybody felt… I mean, poor other leaders, maybe everybody envied him in Jordan, every Arab, loved Jamal Abdel Nasser first and then maybe King Hussein, or his leader, I don’t know, and it was very strong Arab nationalism, which is all lost now. I don’t know maybe if somebody like that stayed but again, maybe its all over the world, because now look when the Soviet Union Collapsed, now every small republic they wanted their own republic, so people in the 60s and 70s, the first part of the 20th century, were going towards unity, and now they are going towards… but I believe very much in the saying, History repeats it self, so maybe it will repeat itself again after 100 years or something or 200, and this is very typical of the women’s movement, because when you go to Egypt, Tahrir Square became famous, but it was always famous for me, because I love Cairo and I always went there, and sometimes at 3 o’clock you want to go anywhere, you go to Tahrir Square and people are like that, you eat ice cream and corn, everything, because Egypt doesn’t sleep at all, I’m used to it, but I was afraid the last time to go around on my own. So they say it is Tahrir Square, because Tahrir means Liberation, liberation circle, that women in the 1920s they were lead by a very famous woman, if you are studying you will come cross her, Huda Sharawi, you will come across her name defenitly, so she lead them, and of course, this was not in Islam, this is because of the Ottoman Empire, everybody wore Yashbak they called it, this black all over, and black here, now maybe in Qatar it stayed but I don’t know from the Ottoman or its national dress maybe, and they walked there and stand “long live the woman”… etc, “woman liberation”, and they all shed these things down, Imagine! And now if you go to Tahrir Square, every body is sitting there lovers also, because in Cairo Asir El Neel Bridge is also famous, its for lovers, they are always standing there, before, we used to say very fashionable lovers, now, they are the same ones, all the ones in the Hijab they are lovers, and they are standing there, check to check, here and there, because it is a long bridge. So, nothing changed actually, its just like the 60s, where the mini skirt was the fashion, now the hijab is the fashion. So I was telling some women in the conference, I am sure after a hundred years, all the women will walk again to Tahrir Srqaure and shed their Hijabs. So its funny, but maybe it will happen, because in the 60s we heard those liberated women, and they went to the I think, Picadeli Circle and threw their bras, maybe its true or not true I don’t know.

NP: I am not sure if it is a myth or.

LN: you heard about it?

NP: Yeah, yes.

LN: I didn’t see it, but in Egypt, it is well known, they went to Tahrir Square although after many years I went to Egypt, I didn’t know why it was called like that. So, one time we wet on a trip with a guide and this is what he said. So, I said, oh my god, and of course it started and who started the liberation of women movement, all the high educated people and the Sheikhs. Because in Muslim societies the most educated are the Muslim priests, the Sheikh, because they study a lot and read a lot, so Imam Mohammed Abdo, and some of… even the music in Egypt was started by one of the Imams, I forgot now his name, Sheikh… I forgot what… I saw it on a television series, he is the one who taught Um Kalthoum, how to sing, you know the, and now, some Muslims say this is Haram (Forbidden), you will go to hell, that it is forbidden against Islam, so they changed in society, I don’t know, of course I maybe prefer the older one, except with some… so this is, when you think, and even in Jordan, sometimes the older Shiekhs who used to be very famous ones, they used to be very liberated, because they speak about Islam as it is, now the newer ones, they think this is Haram and you shouldn’t do that, and some crazy ideas are coming if you read on the internet, like one of them said a woman can’t work with men, except they are her milk brothers. So, all of them, the man should really… there were so many jokes on the internet, that the man, every woman should breast feed both her colleagues and they will be like her sons or… and there was so hilarious things everyday on the internet, the secretary is typing and somebody says, this is enough I think, you are now my son, he says no I am not having enough. This is one of them and many other things, there was a Sheikh in Saudi Arabia, many people attacked him and who came with him etc… like also yesterday only, I read that one Saudi Sheikh, he said that he allowed, it is allowed to sleep with children, homosexuality, because it is very much against Islam and you know, religions are against it, but to have sex with… especially if they are small, look this is child abuse we are always against it, how they think of these things? I read this yesterday in an article, this sheikh is saying, because everything they think of the men, how he release because not allowed to have sex with another woman or something, so he follow boys. I don’t know, and I said, I don’t know how these Sheikhs think… but maybe some people against them, and yes there was this in Islam or pre Islam, and they start to discuss and leave all the big issues. Sorry, disgusting! And what about the work, also I have something, because I have something, always I thought people... when I was in the ministry of education it was all women, but when I went to the foreign ministry because… of course, there were men teachers but mostly like women and one teacher, who teachers chemistry or physics because there were not many women teaching this then, at that time. I always there is a general saying, that women are the only ones, they just talk about fashion and dresses and lipstick and makeup and children and all these things, and the men are more brainy they don’t think about all of that. I went to the foreign ministry and I was really flabbergasted… British, the Americans wouldn’t say… because all the men are all fashion conscious because they are diplomat, and I used to tell them, I am glad I worked here because I never thought you were exactly like us, because it depends on the person, they come in and like, what is this suit? It is beautiful, and right away, they look at the back of… and Oh, Armani, I don’t know, and I learned all these in the foreign ministry, the big titles, and they always, they talk, if somebody, another man, they really talk, I mean, this is not bad, I mean, they are the same, I didn’t do this with my friends, because sometimes I have other things to talk about, but they always say, women are like that, but men are even more like that. They are exactly like each other, it depends maybe on what they work, or what they do... and the gossiping, and they gossip more even, and also the fashion consciousness and all of this, and even the perfume, I told them I am glad to learn from you, I want to take my father, there was something, I forgot, something very nice, and I started bringing it to my husband. And I am getting some culture here, because I don’t know the fashion for men, so this is something that psyched me actually, and what else. But wherever I worked I really enjoyed my work, and I have very life friends from the men and the women, and they become friends with the family also, sometimes I invite them and of my husband and of the family, the other day, they were asking my brothers, somebody, or this man is a friends with the whole family, and we wonder where did he start? So I tell them from me, he was my colleague and we were living in Jabal Lweibdeh, and sometimes he passed by me to take me to him, and he always comes and my mum knew him and then my husband became very friendly with him later on and its fantastic, and sometimes, I think its very healthy, sometimes the ICRC people say, no not like in your time where people were closer, because it was a smaller, we were in Jabal Amman, after the 3rd circle, I started, there was a smaller one and then I moved to the next which is, but now they moved outside Amman, on the way to the Airport, so they say people were closer but maybe everybody think like that, you think now people are close or your friends only… No, in Jordan, because, like even in England, when you are living in London, the first house we took, was in London, and the last one, but in between we went to Harold, so of course, when you are in the country, you get to know people in the post office they know who I am, and they say how is doctor Nasser, and because its small, a small community and then afterwards, when I went back with my husband I lived in {inaudible: 18:32] Garden city, also I loved it, very nice, and people know each other more, and sometimes they come, but usually I mean, it depends on the place, like in a big place, now, here, we know the neighbors by… but before we used to know the neighbors and you had to go visit if you move here newly everyone would come and say hello to you. Maybe I think, from which part of England are you?

NP: I was born in Birmingham.

LN: the north are more friendly usually, they say, family ties and such.

NP: yeah, they say they are more friendly up north. Technically I am in Midland, Not north and not south im from the middle, they say the further you go from London, to the north the more endearing it gets.

LN: like the Irish or I forgot, there was somebody in the embassy, a very nice guy he is big, I always used to tell him, you remind me of the prime minister, he was also big, Callahan… with the eye brows, very friendly, and his wife they always hug me, the best cook in Jordan somebody said, but they are nice… So, I told him your character and your looks they don’t look English at all, I was stupid to say English, I should have said British, and he said, yes, because, of course not because I am Welsh. I said, oh my god, I am sorry, I meant to say British, maybe or something, because they different they are very warm, Welsh and the Irish, not against the British but always in the big capital people are fast, everywhere, but this, just what we thought it will not happen to the Arabs, it is happening, because now, like Amman, was first in Jabal Lweibdeh, and then Jabal Amman, you know very… how long have you been here? Did you get to see exactly the constitution of Amman?

NP: I have been before, I visited before, so I know it.

LN: because all foreigners love Jabal Lweibdeh because it is smaller and many cultural things are now moving to it, but for me the French Cultural center was there so I always took French there, and I was living beside, ad it was the only park in Amman. Now, there is the restaurant there, I forgot the name, they put it, and there is a national gallery, maybe you went there I am sure. And it is a very nice area, like family so we lived in the second floor in one of the… but the whole area looked like home, and we used to know all the neighbors around the circle. But now, I know maybe the next, because it is a twin house, but not like everyday together or something, neighbors before used to be very… so this is the fast life maybe.

NP: Yeah, exactly.

LN: do you want another tea?

NP: Okay, thank you. Can I ask why you liked work? Why was it important for you to work? And what did you like about your work?

LN: I have to wonder, its god because from… because most of the time, I was enjoying what I did, and I liked interaction with people, I had, I communicated well with people, so it was easy for me, I never thought, but some people say you are different don’t talk about yourself… because I don’t have a problem, many people, sometimes, in the foreign ministry or in the teaching profession, some people would be like, this guy this and that, and I used to say no, he is very nice, and the say, that’s it, you always defend people, but I am not trying to defend, I am trying to see the other points, I mean, I don’t know why, but I dint have a problem on the interpersonal level, and also I don’t know, many people tell me, maybe you don’t know what they say in your back, and I say, I never care about that, I never thought… because when you don’t do something, you think people don’t do it, really. But I take these things [inaudible: 23:33]… and I never think about it, of course I know the girlfriends sometimes, if we come anywhere, they say, maybe they said something about my dress or, but I didn’t hear anything, I am not the type who would think something like that, what did they say about me, but basically, it’s the work I used to like very much in the foreign ministry, and I worked, at the first I started in the library, and then it was in the International Organizations, and also in the protocol in the political section, and the protocol, I was one time in the Passport department, and you know, we make all the ID cards and etc. and it was great because you see everyone come from everywhere for their IDs. And the last one was in the protocol department, and I forgot to say as a woman and for discrimination, because one time we had a foreign minister, he said, he decided he doesn’t like married women as diplomats, imagine, and we were 5 of us married, and the others were not, and really, this is very important, and I started with the other ones, when I got the transfer in the 80s even, I don’t know, he is still around, because he was head of protocol once, and he looks very, he is handsome and tall, and looks very advanced and his wife is American and such, but sometimes you don’t know what the brain is, so all of a sudden, that it is not fit for a married woman to be… they cant do their work well, and maybe they are not reliable from secrecy wise or something, so I remember that, and it went a rumor in the… but it was true unfortunately, and he called me, because I was the oldest one and the most advanced, I was first secretary then, and he called me once and discussed, and he say, I heard a lot about you from your colleagues, they respect you and you are a hard worker, because I was in London then, and some of those with me in London are some of his best friends so… and he is a career diplomat and he should know, he served with women, and he said, I don’t want, I want all of my diplomatic court to be movable, mobile, maybe the married woman can’t, and I said why your excellency? Because I was in London with my husband and this girl was here with her husband, and I was naming them for him… and anyone of them they are waiting for… he said also, it is not worthy to have because maybe she would say all the secrets to her husband, I said, haven’t you heard of all the old espionage historical stories, Mata Hari and all of that… it is on the contrary, we are the ones who keep the secret, and it was true, because in any profession, some people are sometimes dependable in everything, and I said its no different it depends on the character, but the women are more secretive than men, etc.… and I told him when I was in London, one of the depute ambassador was working with the intelligence in Jordan, so then he became a diplomat so he knows what he is doing, one day he called me and said Lamees, I want you to take the Cipher, there was something called the Cipher, but this is before the internet and all… and I said no, when you can’t come I will come, but I want you especially to have that, I was very happy he trusted me, and I remember during the weekend, I would tell my husband, please, you are off today, if you can take me… and he would drive me and all the way back he would say, what? I am sure it is something trivial, to take it from here, what was it saying? I am sure somebody is visiting, I say, okay dear, I cant tell you, he would say tomorrow all your colleagues would tell me, and I would say okay, go ask them. He said, do you believe she didn’t tell me all the way… and maybe it is stupid but I was very careful not to… for something to come out from me, because I was also a woman so I was extra careful, let them say this guy said and that guy said, but not me, so I was telling him that it happened in London that they insisted I take it, and it means they found that I was trust worthy, and they are all men, and then he said, why didn’t you go work with Madam Inaam, there was a famous woman minister who worked in the ministry of social development, imagine. This is stupid, why didn’t you think to go work with Madam Inaam? I said, what do you mean? Of course I knew what he meant but I want to see what he means… I mean in the ministry of social development, and every time, they put a minister it is in the social development, and then I said, if I wanted, I was in the ministry of education if I wanted, but then I sat for exams and I tried my best to come to the foreign ministry, and this is what I wanted so I don’t understand your question. Do you ask anybody why did you go this ministry or to… really it is impossible. And then I thought maybe it will end here, and all of a sudden, one time, maybe after six months or something, he took, and it was against the diplomatic charter because it was closed, it was called “closed”, meaning you cant come except if somebody resigns or die and not so.. he opened it, and we used to say it’s a closed charter to protect us, and now he opened it, and he said all the women, the marries ones only, imagine, and all of them were married to somebody like Majali and he was in the royal court, he became on the royal court later, and one Oun Khasawneh, he is a judge in the international court of justice, he became later prime minister, I mean prime minister here in Jordan, he has even bigger thing abroad, and all of them, I told you her father was the first prime minister in Jordan, Fawzi Mulqi, is his name and I don’t, I am the highest degree but he all of a sudden we received that I appoint you, head of communication and protocol, he appointed me, and everybody said, congratulations, but he removed the diplomatic status, but then afterwards, and it as really nothing, really the husbands were sitting together saying he is a bad guy, maybe if you were new you will win the court, but then he will send you to the trouble areas to see if you are going, to Sudan, to… and the same time he issues transfers for 3 or 4 of us, I apologized, because I came from London one year only…

TAPE 4

LN: usually you would like to go and it was in Ottawa in Canada, imagine, but my husband after 30 years said, why did you listen to me and not go to Canada? I said oh my God… of other than Nasser, because I thought, that’s it, you are a medical doctor, and you have a clinic, you cant go around with me every 4 years and so on… I don’t know, we talked it over, and he said I am not ready, and we took money from the bank, and we have to stay here, so I apologized and it is the only one I apologized for, all the others were preparing to go the married ones, then he cancelled all. I mean it was very stupid governmental thing, I don’t know, now, peoples eyes are on the government, maybe they don’t… and it was in the 80s, not in the 60s, this was after more than 17 years in the ministry, but then we had another, somebody… then I was offered this thing from the Swedish save the children, with higher pay, of course I was very… I don’t know maybe then it was then 135, but this was 350 dinars, so I was ready to leave, although I left early I think, because we always say that women don’t go to the higher decision making positions, maybe for one reason or another or for family ties, or for stupid… they leave, when you stay in the same place, you grow more I think. And then we had another minister, Tahir Al Masri, very famous here, he was head of the senate, and before head of the parliament and prime minister, and he was looking and he said, what’s happening? Because we were stupid we didn’t spread it, now when I talk sometimes in my research, I talk about it, so I see some of my colleagues, one who was smaller than me, but he became a foreign minister Abdel Ilah El Khateeb, so one time he came to me and said, Lamees, you are shooting at the government I heard. I said, me, shooting what? I am saying what Marwan Qasim did to us, he took [inaudible: 2:00]… so he was able to be in a laughing mood, so this one, Tahir Al Masri, he didn’t want me to resign, for I don’t know him personally, but he kept saying to me why and so on… he said I am planning, I am studying this file and I will let you back with your diplomatic standard. Although it didn’t matter, but it was something… suppose I wanted to transfer later, but I am not a diplomat, but then I said, no, no, my husband wants me to… he was discouraging me, it was more money and you are sitting in the government, and people sit because they want to go out in the foreign ministry, I don’t know, sometimes you put family first, or most of the time, and I said okay. So but he wrote on my resignation, Agreed but I am very sorry. And this is, I said, oh my god, the [inaudible: 03:00]… they usually put agreed, so I always told it for him, I like this guy, he became of course different things later, this is something that, if you say I don’t know what happened in the primitive land, okay. But most of us were little careless to… we were not empowered enough to think that we should expose him in the prime minister’s… with the ministers, look what he has done, he is preaching all the charters and all of that, so that was stupid, but I don’t know where… all of us had our children small, not newly married but were young wives, I don’t know. We thought, and most of them left, I am the only one who stayed after that but, after maybe 2 years. But I did leave because of that. Because the new minister wanted to rectify it, but these are the things women face. Of course, I hear about many others things now, they say about the harassment, but maybe now, people are carrying it too far, I mean, always you can say, oh you have a nice haircut, now, I hear it is really crazy, and some people carry it over, people would say, its not his business to tell me that, why did he say that, I mean I don’t know maybe we were more bashful, we didn’t have great [inaudible: 04:30]… but of course things happen even when you are married, sometimes some colleagues would try to make passes on you or invite you to drink beer or, especially that we are in Jabal Amman, and there is an Inter Continental, sometimes I mean, but I always take it as a joke and say, oh come on, in the middle of this… and go drink beer, and I don’t drink beer, I sometimes, I used always to taking like joking, maybe I shouldn’t have I don’t know, but sometimes these things happen, but now, there are great problems, you say, because we didn’t have this expression now, every time the UN invents a new expression, like sexual harassment, and even on the streets sometimes people follow you and say, it was but… but the cutest was in Egypt, I always went to Cairo, but they are known that they are cute, that they say things, but you keep walking or smile and they leave, but now, during Tahrir Square, they say that people are touching and this is very… I mean, things develop. Maybe more civilization things are, or maybe it attracted attention to these things and they start to do it. I don’t know, and even in Jordan now, we have, we always had some cases of honor killings, and rape and but I think they were milder, even when the people were wearing shorter dresses and without any hijab, these things happened less. Maybe we need an anthropologists to study this. You think the same maybe in other countries, maybe?

NP: I don’t know, its difficult to know f there are more actual cases or whether that people repeat it more.

LN: some years ago, after I left the foreign ministry, I don’t know there was some guest coming to the American embassy or the British embassy, or something, but there was a reception and he was saying something, he said, but he was an elderly man with white hair, and he said, it is amazing when I went to the meeting it was all men except one young pretty lady, so I said, maybe he is from that age group, so I said, oh I am so happy that there is one pretty lady with us because we are all men and so on… maybe he gave her a compliment or something, and then I realized that if I was in my country, maybe she will sue me, because we now are having these things about sexual harassment, I don’t know he said it aloud, and it was very true, I thought to myself, yeah, many times, you say, at least you have one, at least one said, we have a flower in the middle of us. Maybe we don’t like to hear that. Maybe before when we heard it we passed it like that, but he said, this is really, I thought this is really good, because if I did that mistake somewhere else, I would be sued, so maybe, carried it too far I think. But they do these days, whenever we go to a conference, sometimes I tell my colleagues, many time our colleagues, every time they say, because we say it to each other, your tie is nice, your perfume is nice, or sometimes they tell you the same, but now people look at it and make a big fuss, especially the Arabs started to do like that, maybe they are more advanced than us, but in North Africa, like Tunisia or Morocco, in Magrib, yeah, especially Tunisia. Because in Tunisia they are very… now even, but as I said, when I was in that conference, we discovered that all the Arab world, is getting backwards in ones eyes. Especially in the Arab spring and the governments that had some revolutions, because when the Tunisians spoke, the Yemeni, the Sudani, everyone, and the Libyan and of course the Egyptians also, I mean seven countries that had some riots, and in even in Jordan, every time they change a law they make a few good things and then something gets back. So, and I remember in Tunisia they said we have a real problem, because they were advanced in 1957, they had a person status law, which is a family law that was so advanced, he brought, Abu Rqeiba, he brought many learned religious Muslim men, I mean, Sheikhs, and told them to study and tell me your verdict about this, about multiple marriage, four! So they studied the Quran and the Quran say because pre Islam people married 20 or 30, all the slaves you can sleep with them and so on… so in Islam, they did gradually, he said only 4 and there is something a condition, this is so that you would benefit orphans. Its to protect the orphans and those women, and sometimes there are no reason so you don’t have to do it. And something else, in other verses, it says, you can be very fair to all of them, the four of them its okay. And then in the third verse, because it is progressive, it says you can never be fair, that means one. But every sheikh wants what pleases them, and so you see now, there are voices going back, this is not Islamic, these are heretic and they left us… but the Tunisians, especially the women, say we are sure because we were brought and bread like this, so maybe nothing will change because no body will accept it. Nor the men neither the women. So I wonder what will happen, because sometimes people change. And also, in all the Arab countries, now they are also calling for lessening the age of marriage, to 9 some of them, imagine, because Aisha, one of the prophets wives, were married at age of 9. Although there are many stories and books say that she was 13, and 13 at that time maybe it was okay. And she is the one who say, take half of your religion from this red head lady, this is what they say in Arabic. But now in Sudan, and in Saudi Arabia, they are asking for 9 not only 13. Ad in Jordan we fought to become 18. It is now 18, but in the last amendment, they said unless the judge thinks it is in the benefit of the girl I don’t know, maybe she had slept with the man and they want to cover it, or she is an orphan and she is living alone, something bad will happen, if it is better for her to marry, she can be less than 18. But what we are against, that they should add on condition to be like 16 or 15 something like that, not leave it, if the judge thinks its more proper, he can decree the marriage, so in Jordan this is something back. In the constitution they say that the family and the values of the family, I mean, in the constitution in Jordan you don’t see… which means you have to go with the country’s traditions, they bring you traditional… so I am always afraid when every time there is a change or amendment of one law, I don’t like amendments, because even the society’s law, of 1968, we were working according to it, and now we are having a new one, and I has… some of the few things are a little bit better, but many things, there are more restrictions more limitation for the work of NGOs, etc. and more punishment, like you would go to prison for 10 years, or you are fined, so maybe no body would come and volunteer to work in NGOs, so I don’t know what is happening to the world, not only here, but especially the Arab Spring countries, all the revolutions, nothing is happening and it is getting backwards in the laws. And specially women’s laws, and everybody say now, we have more urgent things to think about other than… but that never happen. So these kind of policies… because you wanted like, not global on the Arab level, but of course I always thought that the North African women and the Arab women are not a like, especially Tunis, and also Algeria and Morocco, they are more advanced than the Arabs, more powerful, even the trade unions it is full of women, here, not so much. Maybe they make a committee for the labor union, a women committee, something like that. So… This is it.

NP: how did you become interested in women’s right?

LN: yeah, its also, a long time ago as a woman I always followed but passively, but you know, when you are allowed to go elect, etc… now in Jordan in 74, they were given the right to vote, but not to also run, but later on it was to run. Maybe because it started, I joined one committee or organization called, Nadi El Jameyat, even they called it a club, because its international but it has this Jordan chapter, that university women club, or society, and we were interested very much in the laws, so we are… there was no support or donations, I don’t know how we managed, maybe we… I said I will go and see the president that was then, and see how did we do all these things, sometimes she go to companies, she was a doctor, but very active, and I was in the administration, but this was when I was in the foreign ministry, we used to make bazars and it didn’t cost us anything, maybe she take from, maybe the hotel will give a donation, and all the diplomatic women would bring the things and then we would collect the money, so it was very good. And even in Ramadan, we used to do Iftar, (breaking the fast), every one of us used to make a dish, and leave it in the organization, and somebody would pay a ticket like 5 dinars or something, but it cost us nothing actually, maybe this initiated me into it actually, of course before, the YMCA used clubs and such, but it was not purely women. And you know, this famous Toujan Faisal, you have her name, I swear, you did your homework well… Bravo, she was one of us, but she was not famous then, so we were working in this, in the university and… she was doing her masters, and working somewhere, so we always put her in front, so one time we make about the personal status law, and always we divide the things between us, what we… that one she made a paper and she is fiery, when she talks, wow, and we gave this lady the president, she says we are the ones who gave Toujan Faisal a forum, because we were in the… and she was the most courageous amongst us, I will say this, so once there were Tunisians, and there was some Tunisian delegation from the government, and they were talking about the law, and then a Jordanian Sheikh, Zaid Al Keilani, he stands up and says, they change the Islamic religion, your heretic president… etc. there was a raw, and some people took him out and then the Tunisian delegation they went out, and Toujan was shouting, I still remember, but then everybody apologized to each other, but ours he did not accept it, it was in the 80s, we were very active in this association, but I don’t know, then it died out, the president… usually everything the president maneuvers us and such, usually not too much. So, but then after that I applied to, there was something provided by the president, but this was when I really went in, but it was really, 1990, but from the early 80s maybe 10 years I was with this women’s organization, this NGO. So there was a regional project called, like Arab Association for Women and Development, and it was really interesting, but it was a project of two years, so I went… they met many people and I was engaged in it, this is when I left the university. And I really enjoyed the work very much, and this is when I knew all the big Arab activists, because it was regional, and we were supposed to write to them and tell them about the establishment of the general secretariat of this and we were working really very well, and we did 2 big conferences, everybody that I new from Lebanon and all the Arab world, from Tunisia, and then we did something about Arab women and economy, and we have colleagues coming from Al Azhar and everywhere, so this is two years really initiated me into this, and afterwards, we started our organization, there was president Haifa Wazari, now she is with the Arab league and she became the leader of UNIFEM in Jordan also, but then I became the president. But now we are all… I mean I am one of the youngest, they are all, they lost interest and they become… I mean our, but I inherited them because they were with Haifa, the previous one, and they are very nice ladies but we don’t work very actively, of course sometimes, and it depends on projects, there is no more money, sometimes of course you go and take the donations, from one bank, but the organizations are too many now, and they are, they like to give, suppose I go to any bank, even the ministry of planning, so one time I told them, I applied to you twice, tell me some of the names that you gave funding to, because we always… so he said, River Jordan association, Queen Alia, Juhud, I told you they changed the name, all headed by princesses, they get more media attention, and then I said, oh now I understand, we allow them to… of course they have big staffs and people trust them more, I mean we took the last project that ended the end of last year, it was about training of trainers on association laws, because people are so mixed up, even the NGOs don’t understand it, so we engaged a lawyer who is very learned in this, and we did it, because the donors now they want to go out of Amman, so we did it in 8 governates, so we went to Tafileh, Ma’an we didn’t go, but Aqaba, and Zarqa and Irbid, we went to 8 governates, and it was very good, but now when it is finished, sometimes there is some left money from it, because we work for, we saved because there is a coordinator but actually one of us do the work, sow e get the money, but now we applied, and I am the one who writes the projects sometimes, I am out of ideas, I say, tell me new Ideas, and they say violence against women, I say, we should sit down and say, what part and what are the objectives and what we will do, because you know the projects are hard to do sometimes it works. So I tell them to my… maybe I am out of ideas now, so somebody should brain storm. And now we are in many committees, and I am myself, I was actually, because the government they made me make a quota committee to study the feasibility of putting a quota for the women, maybe this was when…. 2009, I forget, sometimes I write it here, but this is, but our addresses are wrong here, the correct ones are here also. Once we took from the French embassy, this is me, much younger here, why?

NP: you look very glamorous?

LN: although it is not very, when was it, maybe 2007. Yes, 2007, seven years ago.

NP: 5 years, yeah, 7 years, time flies.

LN: although I am still active and still try, some people who know me they say, like this, you collapsed a little after your husband died, I say, why? Because I have children and things, I am okay. I say, I didn’t think so, but maybe it happens when you don’t notice it. Although I always thought I would be more active, because sometimes, you would love voluntary work, everything without money you go for it, all of that… always I have to say we have this and we have this, I thought I will… nobody after you… but maybe we will work better when there is somebody challenging us, maybe that should be the challenge, like I will be doing this and you will be doing that… so this is, I always go from one story to another so I forget what I was saying but this is an older one. But I mean, not everything is in here, maybe because this is an older brochure, but we work a lot on SIDA, because sometimes, it feels that I am an expert myself, because when you see, this is y CV, with UNICEF I worked a lot on the training for the women’s convention, and also I went to, when we sent CVs to UNICEF, and they chose me to go to Oman, I went maybe three times, because they didn’t ratify first, they are afraid and they are waiting for the other gulf to, but now all of them except, now the 22 countries, we have the Sudan not adhering to it, and of course Somalia… maybe 2 countries not 3. I always used to know by heart because….

NP: Saudi Arabia?

LN: No, Saudi Arabia was one of the first to enter. Yeah. But the gulf were a little late, like Qatar, Oman, and these ones like Bahrain, because I started work in 97 mostly, I was engaged by UNICEF to work on SIDA now, and it was 11 Arab countries, and for many years, we said just 11 Arab countries and they are 22, but now they are 19. 21, 22, who is the third one? Sudan definitely, and Somalia, I cant remember the third, I usually know them by heart.

NP: Comoros.

LN: Comoros, no, they didn’t make even a reservation or anything, Comoros. Maybe Djibouti, I always… because definitely Sudan and Somalia, although they always agreed and said with the Sudais, that your women are the most empowered, this is a long time, like Egypt, the first university professors, and the first judges, in all the Arab countries, no judges, Egypt was the last, they say its against Shariaa, great discussion, even Jordan, they had women judges before Egypt, imagine! If Jordan thought it was okay in Shariaa, and now may Arab countries are working towards it but Egypt, very newly, so one we were talking and the Sudanese women, they said why you are making a great fuss? Because in Sudan since the 1960s we have women judges. And they are the ones working with Shariaa law in the most. And in the convention of the rights of the child, they were the first Arab country to ratify, so I said this is a replica, everything is here, is already here, but this is for the mother and this is for the child. Sometimes you like to make the comparison to encourage the country so, one lady told me I think maybe the UNICEF director was from New York and was coming to visit Sudan, and our ambassador said it is a shame that you are not ratifying the convention on the rights of the child, so we ratify in a hurry, we didn’t read it, and all the other countries make reservations on three subjects, on the convention of the rights of the child, but one of them is very stupid, because it is about choosing, about adoption. Because in Islam there isn’t adoption, but they were very smart the UN, they went to Azhar, they went to Zaitouna, the big religious centers of the Arab world, and Al Azhar joined the study of the rights of the child convention actually, and they said, here in the adoption, that each child, who has no family has the right to be adopted by a family, but of course this was scrutinized and so on. And then he said, in Islam it is not allowed the adoption, we call it care, like care, which means, we can’t put him in your name, because in the future maybe you will marry his sister or something like that, things happen, sometimes you have stories on TV. So Al Azhar studied it and said this is the same exactly, so we should say or the Islamic welfare care. So, and then all the Muslim countries reserved on this, including Jordan, so sometimes in conferences, I tell them, you know all those Islamic countries they are reserving against Islamic child welfare care, really. Because it says inside the item, I think 20 or 24, and one of them I think article 14, it says, that the child is free to practice his religion etc.… but then not to choose because he is very small, freedom of religion and conscious and things like that, and then everybody reserved. Ah, I know those foreigners, because in the futures they will say that he can become Christian or Atheist, and it doesn’t say that. But maybe it should be explained like that but in the SIDA now, it’s the other way, like the nationality in Jordan at least, but most of the countries, even Muslim or non Muslim, on the family law, and also on this nationality, because it is political not… the third, in Jordan they withdrew, and all the sheikhs here, oh, now look, we are imitating the west, we are… although there was no need, and one of the important sheikhs I went to when I worked at UNICEF, and meet him he said, no, this shouldn’t be reserved it is not against Islam, he said, freedom of choice of domicile and travel and domicile. So he said whatever the Muslim woman wants she can make in her marriage contract, you can’t reserve on, because she is allowed to have conditions, she can say, oh you cant marry after me, or I want to stay in my country while married to him, it used to be like that, even longtime ago. Those in Saudi Arabia they married somebody and they are in Damascus, and also besides, it was not in the Jordanian laws, long time it was cancelled that women should take permission for the travel, but because everybody usually….

TAPE 5

LN:… like to see that, when the government said that we are withdrawing this reservation, they started, what about in the future when our daughters will say we want to live alone? Etc, etc. so sometimes, anything which is good, which mentions women, and also the CEDAW, the government was afraid to pass it in parliament, I mean we ratify it since 1992, and we have already presented 5 reports and it is signed by the king and etc, so when they put a child convention in front of the parliament, right away in one minute they all accept it but with its reservations. Okay, no problem, it would happened the same to CEDAW, but when everyone saw in the society what they do when the mention anything about women, so the government published it, we have something called, official gazette, nothing is really legal except if it is published there, and it is a plus if it is passed by the parliament. So it came form the government, it said we have already did this, and the king signed it, and we have presented 5 reports, so the government decided to publish it in the official gazette, so it became official now. But of course many people criticize that, but if you go to the parliament they will make maybe 10 other reservations, so maybe this is the story of the CEDAW, and things are getting worst, maybe because there is in the CEDAW the age of marriage is 18. Maybe they will stop here and deserve on it. Because they say, in Islam they say the prophet married somebody and… so we have a problem, really. And many times, I was going to say I was in the quota committee, so we were just maybe 16, 8 men and 8 women, but I really think we didn’t push and work together well. Because even the women, and some of them were in the Women Federation etc. from the start I said maybe we should say 12, okay, because in Amman you can’t have… no, I even said 15, I gave a number that now, recently they did. I fixed that, and even my husband is very good in elections and committees, so we were discussing it together and I remember I wrote it that we need 15, although we are 12 governates, because suppose 3 maybe for Amman, maybe 3, 4 for Zarqa, 2 for Irbid and 1 for… because you cant have just one for one, because the population is more in each city. He said, oh my god, the president of the committee, he said Lamees, where shall we put them, we don’t have space in the parliament, I said you can build fabricated houses, anyway, and the women, when I told them lets all say we want 15, because then they would say half half, and some of the men will come with us maybe. They said no, Lamees, we know, we heard from the prime minister last time, he said don’t dream more than 6. I know it wouldn’t happen, so why should we ask. No, we should ask, so we didn’t ask. So everybody, then we raised our finger, who wants 15. I raise on everyone. Who wants 12? Because of the suggestions, then I tell anybody with me, please raise on the next one, because we will loose the… anyway, and then we voted on 7 and we sent it to the government, but the government said 6. So it stayed for maybe 4 or 5 years as 6, and then they raised it to 12 but now they raise to 15. So its amazing, yeah, also we had many forces in the parliament, against this, they said why? a woman is a citizen, why should we? But we said we have many quotas, we have one quota for the Christians and one for the Circassians and one for the Chechens, only two or three for the caucuses, because, and then we said we either, move all the quotas or… why, we are helping the ones who dot win, and maybe for 2 elections nobody won, except those on the quota, but last elections, 2 won their own rights, because they were previously parliamentarians, so now the number went to 18, because 15 is that’s it, that’s our right, and anybody who wins outside the quota, can be added, which is really… but the problem is in conferences, some parliamentarians they say, we are imitating America, and imperialism etc. I know, because when you study ones rights and such… and I said, maybe they learn from us, I wanted to say, they learn from us, because in 1957 and here is Emily Nafaa, she is now a senator by the way, you can ask her, there was the prime minister so and so Nabulsi, and the woman walked to the prime ministry to ask for and they didn’t call it quota then, portions for the women, it means… it is quota actually, but its like shares, it means share, especially, we want shares for women in every location, so I said, actually, maybe they followed us, because we were before them, and when you bring some facts, you should know the facts, because every time they say, when you ask for something, even if it is very Islamic, such as Kholou (marital separation), have you heard about it? Because in the previous personal status law, there was one item which is very Islamic, you know because the prophet used to speak about any wife that comes to him, he is fantastic, he is an open man, and maybe it had a sexual connotation and then he encourage it [inaudible: 06:21]… she said but I can’t stand him, which means to stand him, maybe to me it explains more as bodily, something like that, although he is the best of men, and then the prophet told her because he is like the judge, what did he give you for your dawery? She said he gave me a farm or a garden. He said okay, you can give him back the garden and leave him, but he used the term (Ikhlaei), which means shed him, when you shed your cloths, but we said they brought back the Kholou, because it is Islamic, I don’t know, somebody… it depends on the committees, and then the men got mad, everyday in the paper, jokes about it, talking about it, that if the women now, if the man will tell her I don’t like your cooking today, she would say “I swear I would shed you”, you are making us like traps or something like that. Really! In the conference they said we became a joke, like a joke, you make the men of the country like a joke. And so this time, first they wanted to change it, the men are against it, so they make the amendment, they want to change but everyone got mad. And princess Basma, because she is the head of the Jordanian National Commission for Women, and of course you know Asma Khadir, she was working over there, we are all… I knew her long time, and now she became important more. So she is also a senator, and she was studying and studying and she said, let us look in the Quran, and although by the way she was Christian, and I didn’t know that except recently, after I knew her for a long time, because she is a bit reserved, because sometimes they say the Christians are a bit wild, I don’t know, and her name doesn’t show anything, so and she said, I will go back to Quran, because it speaks about all these things, so the Quran said, if you are not happy with your wife, don’t be nasty to her, let her go in good will. I don’t know what they call it in Arabic, Ibraa, just let her go, let her go, so its called Ibraa, which means exactly that she has the right to ask for Ibraa, whivh is the same, but Kholou, they thought it was very humiliating for the man, so they went to the supreme judge, but it was I don’t know, Asma said she was the one who came up with it, but maybe some other people, and maybe… the princess thought to write a letter from the national commission then they put it back, so we have it now, but under another name, which we don’t mind I mean. Because a woman can go to court and ask for this Ibraa. But some women say it is not good because not all women can use it, because some poor women they don’t have money to give him back or they have sold the thing that they gave them, so but my idea is that let the women who can use it, use it. Because sometimes in Egypt, she is a minister or a very important woman, but she can’t divorce at all, because he makes problems for her, of course they can make problems all the time, divorce course here they take long and they are very stingy, there are orders in Islam to fend for your children, now they say, they swear on the Quran that they don’t have money and they give one 20 Jds per month or 40 which is nothing. So at least if a woman can revel out his money, let her use it, maybe in the future we will change the law or something, some people are against it because, because they cant use Kholou except the rich women, but at least something to get. So this is the personal status law, which is the most important law, which I think is the most important law, which regulates… in every country not only… and the proof on that is that most countries with reservations to CEDAW they specify the family law because they think its very internal matters, but many of them withdrew the reservation, like Turky and Malasia and you know many Islamic countries, but here there are sometimes books, I don’t know where the book on CEDAW, there is an Islamic organization, NGO, and they produced 2 books on CEDAW, but its all lies and its different, so one of them says, we like to deal with you Lamees, because you are always neutral etc. because when I say about CEDAW, I don’t say it’s the best in the world, I say maybe many things it missed, violence against women, and some people say in this book, they say it called for homosexual marriages, or lesbian marriages, and this is people were like Oh! And get mad when they hear that, but so… it doesn’t say that. One time I took the CEDAW booklet, I went to the man who said that, and I said please, can you show me where because I teach about CEDAW and I study it, but it never said, maybe it is something I missed, can you show me, so he looked and his friend came with him, and then he said, it doesn’t say here, but the explanation of it is like that. And they say in your book they say there is an items that call for homosexual marriages, I said, between you and me, it was in the fashion in the 70s, maybe now if CEDAW come now, it will put. I wanted to be nice to him. Sometimes yes, and many time, USA is not part of CEDAW, I say sometimes, thank god, USA is amongst the countries that didn’t ratify, it just signed and until now, because they keep saying you keep following the USA. Sometimes I see diplomats from the USA, women I can talk to, I tell her, please don’t push your government to ratify CIDAW now, because we using you as a pretext, because everybody now is against the war in Iraq and then everybody is against USA and they don’t want us to do anything like her, so please, take your time. Oh Lamees, you are funny! I am rude, maybe she wanted to tell me. But after I got to know them, they recognize I am using it every time, because if somebody comes a parliamentary, I say thank god USA is not part…. And they say why? And they are amazed. Because I looked into why, and every time it is put in front of the senate, the religious factions in the senate are against it. So they are sort of like us, mostly Jewish and those, new Christians or something like that. But Israel I think, the same reservations like us, because we are cousins. It is funny, anyway. I am supposed not to do so much talking but.

NP: No, you have to, this is your… this is why I am here to listen to you.

LN: to help your research… I believe especially [inaudible: 14:23]… is very important for the Palestinians and they are the first ones, they are very smart, the West Bank, they do very good work on women’s rights and everything, maybe at first, the EU gave them great support, and I don’t know, maybe they have, they can maneuver, even before the authority came, they had some more freedom to do things, and they have now a very big projects, because they say that the Americans and the British and the Jews, they steal our history, and they are targeting very old men and women, even about social matters and also about women’s rights and all these things, and making books, and I think this is very important, because the books look at different things, but when you hear the life stories, its different, so I congratulate you on this subject.

NP: Thank you.

LN: so what is the name of the whole thing, the formal name of the project? Yeah.

NP: the project. This is the name of the project here.

LN: oh, I am very sorry.

NP: No, its okay. But this is not…

LN: the Middle east a personal and geopolitical…

NP: this is not the name of the book.

LN: maybe it should be geopolitical… geographical, where is the socio. Socio-geopolitical maybe doesn’t work. I will read it very well. Thank you.

NP: it is a play on the personal political, which was a feminist slogan in Europe.

LN: Oh, I am very sorry, I am not aware of the… I know what I read, it’s very [inaudible: 16:10]… and industrial and the pre revolution and pre… you studied gender issues maybe…

NP: Yeah, my specialty is gender and politics.

LN: it is, when you think of it is politics, because for example, in the Muslim Brothers, they have been always in Jordan, but low profile and part of the… but we notice that now there is one period that they hijack all the syndicates, like the doctors and engineers, rural… its amazing, and the nursing, at one point, because they work slowly and deep down, and they use women a lot, they say a woman’s place is in the house, but when it is politics they bring out the woman. So suppose, I remember my husband because he was a doctor, and they thought they would move here, in every house, in our house here, because they said they are the nationalistic they called themselves, we want to regain the doctors… and the did. Damn them, the last 2 or 3 sessions, Islamists, how did they manage to do it? And we used to tell each other its because they are more organized, they are together, we the communist, the Baathist fight, I don’t know what, al the political parties play against each other, they work together, so they become one big force and then they bring the women too. So they worked very well, and they got it , it as a celebration, and then the engineers followed and others followed because they learned from each other, now what they do? They say the woman’s place is in the home but when there is a syndicate elections they bring buses, they have money, I don’t know, now in Egypt, they are the richest and they spend and spend and people sometimes don’t go to elections because they don’t have money. And they say America created them, and they are the ones who give them money, I don’t know. But anyway, they bring busses from Aqaba, from Karak, from everywhere for the elections of women, women coming to elect them. So how come women should not be in public life, but when they need them they bring them. So this is gender and politics right?

NP: exactly.

LN: especially, in the parliamentary elections, they go in groups and very organized, while all the women, the Middle East, I mean, mid society or… I don’t know whom to call, the ones who always go for elections, but some women, they are lazy to go to Aqaba, or they consider it a holiday, and they say, at the end the government in the end will cheat in the ballot and so on, and no body will win from the ones we selected etc. But you should always keep trying so this is very true. And in the election they always put women in the sheet, in the list, or 2 or 3, some announced in the middle, and some people they don’t do. So they know how to play, because they are very much [inaudible: 19:27]… so and usually also in the governments, like, even in some cultured friends, some of my friends, one time, I don’t know I wrote something in the papers, and my friend sais, I don’t know Lamees, now we have so many problems, and those issues are not what we are worried about. Lets solve this violence in the university that we are having now, those were things we never heard of, like violence in general in the universities, people have different affiliations and they quarrel and sometimes they kill each other, and many other things like hospitals hitting the doctors, I am sure you have read in the papers.

NP: I never heard about this.

NP: Swear to God. I don’t believe it, this is something very new, because people are worried, they are violent etc. family of this, if someone died, where is the doctor? And they start sometimes to shoot, and now the doctors syndicate have a problem, everyday in the paper, they say, it’s a problem of the judges they have be firm, no pardon, in this society you go as a delegation to go for pardon, pardon each other and so on, and I think this doesn’t work, I think it should be legalized, so nurses and doctors are being hit and the other group is teachers, somebody, if you expel somebody from the class, you go and bring his tribe and… and this is a great change in the society and everybody is discussing in the paper they don’t know where to start, maybe from the childhood or from the school, or how did it flare? It was maybe imprisoned and it flared, and it even happened with one of our friends in Al Hussein medical city, which is an army hospital and it is usually more respected, and it has the army all the time and etc. so somebody waited and he even hit the wrong doctor even… the person of the relative died and the doctor didn’t see them to tell them more, and he has very big stick, baton, it has a big, its very vicious, and this doctor was putting his in the trunk of his car and he came and… he make like that and it came on his head, and he stayed in the hospital, and he is a heart specialist, imagine, even the family friends, she told me and she was crying, and he came to tell them, and he said he is going to court, he knows his father and everything, but then they changed their name, you don’t know his tribe, they will hurt you in anyway, maybe they will come to your home, or when you go out they will kidnap you, his mother suppose, I mean, people make them fear, to fear something, and then she said, that’s it, everybody said that they will bring a big delegation and kiss the hand of my husband and the doctor who they hit and I don’t know, this was, I don’t know I became mad for a moment, so they solved it between each other, she said everybody frightened us that they will hold it for you and kill him maybe next time. Don’t be afraid we are not a jungle but these things are… So this is some of the social things really, so I don’t know maybe it was… but then when you tell somebody they tell you, everyone in the world was more safe maybe years ago. Because I don’t know why, I studied in philosophy John Locke, because some of the philosophers, some of them say “a man is born evil and then he becomes good”, and others say, “man is born good and then he becomes evil”, so I don’t know which one is more true. I used to think about born good, but I can’t say, I don’t know.

NP: it’s a philosophical question.

LN: why don’t you eat any biscuits?

NP: No, I am fine, I am fine, really. So why is it important for you to continue to be active in this field of women rights and human rights?

LN: that is a very nice question really. Yeah, I always wonder, but yeah, I feel satisfied, I feel satisfaction, besides, I feel it is expected of me and I like to do it and also I always believe that if you don’t get together with people you wither maybe. Because sometimes, now, I have grandchildren, and sometimes my children say, your grandchildren are more important, I tell them, sorry I cant, sometimes I want to take somebody to school or bring him, I say no, because this is a very important meeting and I want to attend. And I like because I am a researcher, I like to know what is happening, its inner actually, and this is in me for a long time, continuing education and the usual work, really, because I always, my husband used to make fun of me, sometimes I say I used to tell him, even if I was Jackie Kennedy, I like to keep working, he used to say, you don’t know if you have millions, so I always thought it is not for the money of… I mean this is when you go to the real work, but this is of course voluntary, but it is good also when you come, when you have research to make, and get paid for it, it is of course good. Because I have retirement, it is not too much, not too big, retirement benefits, because again, the civil retirement they didn’t put for us the family benefits, like the man they put that he has for the husband and the children, the three children, so it is more than the woman’s, but now the social security is different, but because we are government employers… so this is why I always believe that “work is worship”, really, and there is something nice in our parliament hang, also, this is a saying of the prophet but people only do the other things, God love that when every Muslim does something to perfect it, and it is a very nice one, so I was very happy that they put this sign in this parliament, and of course most parliamentarians are mostly absent, they put 50 absent, 70 absent, if you follow. So really I like, I think it is a satisfaction for me, because people sometimes say its okay, but if people say that I should stop bothering because there is now way. Like when we used to work on girls kept for custody you know, honor crimes, usually, you know, for those people to be protected, if they are, if she is pregnant, she runs to the government and they put her, because there is no other homes, they put her in the prison, a special section to protect her from her family, and many times the family would come and they say we pardon her, and then they take her, they marry her to one of the relatives and so on, but always even they told us, we have a big study in 90s… maybe there is a little change since then, and they say, head of the prison or the director, he say I know that when she goes out they will kill her but then we say maybe this time they changed and maybe sometimes at the outdoors of the prison minor brother kill her, because if he is less then 18 he has less punishment, or pardoned for killing, so I used to think this is, we are sick of talking about this but we have to go on, but there is although some years, comes a break through because another sister agency Mizan, they had another project and they were trying to see if some families will get back their girls. And they succeeded in 2 cases, but I said I am really astonished, this is really a break through because for me I thought this was a wall, because over the years no body succeeded in this, they are always killed, but one of them her mother, her father had died, and the big uncles and so one, so she told them she is our daughter and she brought her home, and they didn’t know what will happen to her later, and one of the mother, with her help, she sent the daughter abroad. So it is very difficult, because these things are set, although sometimes even if she is a victim, not her, she didn’t go around with… but the thing, that’s why I like to keep working on the things, I am maybe patient, maybe although sometimes there no breakthroughs but then they happen and I think that means we have to go on. Although I always notice in the Bedouins, they don’t have crimes of honor, beside the tents and they are mixed together, so one time I asked, and they said, because they still respect the head of the tribe, sometimes if one is pregnant or sleeps with a man, she would go to the… they always like to solve the problem, so they marry her to her lover or something like that… but as you go to civilization it becomes more difficult, they like to kill her to wash the honor, and I remember this is… we came to a new subject, but I remember because I was one of the researchers in one of this 97 I think, we went to all the prisons to meet the victims and the perpetrators.

TAPE 6

LN:… and it is funny because, both of them are in the prison this one for protection and this one for punishment. But we also distributed for women organizations so we got maybe 500… to ask them about if they were hit if they were… etc. and the thing is in one of the prisons I remember I used to, when I finish, of course I used to be scared because I thought those were criminals but I thought they were in the rooms and we had police officers around us, and I remember one of them he was little educated and he looked smarter than the others, and he killed his sister, and I was telling him, and now if life goes back with you, would you do the same? Unfortunately I have to do the same, because I couldn’t raise my head and walk in my tribe or between my family if I didn’t wash, they wash the shame with blood. And he said, even if I don’t believe in this I have to do it. So I said, oh my god, maybe the world is sicker than I thought. This guy maybe some people regret it, but he said, unfortunately, although I don’t believe in it, but if I want to stay with this family and this tribe I have to. Because they associated with the women, but men always do un honorable things, so we still have, but now, many people discover that they take, they pretend that it is the issue of honor but it is an issue of feud and inheritance or something, and they say they killed her to wash our hands, so the families have to do some… and this is completely non Islamic, because people think Islam… because in the real religion when you read, if you want to accuse somebody of adultery, you have to have 4 witnesses who have seen the actual act and they say [inaudible: 2:05]… sometimes I am bashful to read it, which means never, because it is impossible to have 4 who see this, and there are many stories about the prophet and the Caliphates who came after him, that support that, but it is more societal, and I always say a social tradition are stronger than law and religion together because they are so instilled I mean. You think… they believe firmly in them and they are instilled in them, more than the law and the legal stipulation and the religion, so you ask me a little question and I go to all the other things…

NP: it is very interesting.

LN: interesting, this is why I love… this is why I said about Jackie Kennedy, because I used to tell him if I was Jackie Kennedy I would still like to work. Because, and she used to work actually, because she used to publish, when I read about her, I thought she was smart really. Maybe even for her own fun and not for the money, but it was a big publishing organization. This is it. And also when I did the masters everybody make fun, because I was in Al Quds open university and I said maybe I will get into the counseling section and so on, because now, although… because it went back to the West Bank, that’s why. But that’s it I started and I finished it. But then I said, maybe its my education or the family, but usually because, the Americans, sometimes the education is good, sometimes you start to believe in continuing education, I believe in that but I don’t know why I believe in it, maybe because I was in Friends or the AUB, or maybe its character of my family, but I always believe that you learn something new, but now there is something bad of me, I am a procrastinator, in few things, but mostly, since I was in high school, I wrote stories and in my university years and I have some, but I don’t know, I am 2 coward to publish, and sometimes I see young girls I don’t know, 19 or 25 or 30 or 40, and she is… then I envy them and I say, that’s nice, they are good enough to publish, but sometimes lately I am thinking of that, many times with my friends they say you write nicely and some of them, but maybe when you look at yourself, maybe it is not interesting for others to read and I am a good reader, but I like to read anything, so maybe some people are like me. So I always thought there is time, there is time, there is not so much time, it is better if I want to do something, and one of the schools we went to see projects of my relatives, younger in bachelor school, and one boy because each one produced a project, his project was, his grandmother, was writing a lot of literary things, maybe his mother told him or something I don’t know, anyway, he collected all her papers and he put them in a book and worked on it and made it as his project, so I was really, it felt nice, I said oh my god, so I know somebody will do it for me, it is funny, but it is nice these projects for kids because these are 16, not very small, 15, 16 and one of them, like one of them my relative, my niece, she made a small book about music the old music, all the 60s music she called it and she put very nice things about Um Kalthoum, Arabic, and the Beatles and what are they called? Elvis Presley, and it was nice, and she put them on a CD and she made a book, they are really nice these projects. Schools were different in our time, of course we used, I always was in the Journalism club lets say in my high school, and in my, sometimes I keep these things, and I look at it and say nice, and when I was in Beer Zait college, they used to have, it was just 2 years, a contest on best short stories, I always saw one, me and another guy, one of my colleagues, we were the first two we always won, we won 2 years, I don’t know if he did anything. So sometimes you need to be, and even the other day, I saw an old friend in university, she came here for an operation and long time we didn’t see each other, so when we teach education and psychology, there was no syllabus for the, they just put us the items of the syllabus and no text books and we were working on what to give, we really worked hard, because we would go to the library or use our notes from the university and so on, and we had some material, so this lady after we worked two years together she said, Lamees, there are no books on the introduction to education, lets make a book for it, and I said, we, impossible, how? We just graduated yesterday, but now I regret it, when I saw her, I always think of you, you were better than me, why didn’t you force me? Because really sometimes over the years, when I look over the notes, I translated many things from other text books and things… and then some other people I know, one of mu cousins, he is in Jordan university and he is the one who make, I should have made that book, introduction to education about the primary things that we used to teach, sometimes, its not under value, but maybe we are brought up like that, like only the bigger ones will make this, but now we have those who are very young, what about you? Are you a writer too?

NP: Yeah, but I only write my academic work.

LN: Academic work.

NP: I haven’t tried to write any fiction or poetry, no.

LN: or poetry, it is not a big deal but it is just, something comes, imagine! But it is better when one has the confidence, sometimes I do it for myself and they tell me, sometimes, then why do you write it? I say for myself, I sometimes think of something and I want to write it. But maybe I will bring someone to retype, because something in my head, writings. And something, and sometimes I used to be in some work and I would give the secretary to make, but we were never aware to keep the CD or keep the… as if they are not tagged. Now everything computerized. And even the letters, the others when we discuss the young generation, they say you were lucky because when you fell in love you had some letters to look at, everything we had is massages and we don’t have anything in our hands. I thought it is very interesting really.

NP: it is true.

LN: and some people after years, like old government people, they publish letters and so on, but now there are [inaudible: 10:27]… in the minds of people.

NP: Emails.

LN: What?

NP: Emails.

LN: yeah, and you have to delete every time, yeah, like my daughters one of them… where is… this one the one who is married because her… did I tell you…these are my grandchildren, this is Christina and this is Farah.

NP: Very beautiful.

LN: but Farah here it is engagement day, because I didn’t make big one for her, I told her your sister brought me the big one.

NP: Very good.

LN: You know I remembered them why, because I was saying, because she used to work in the Arab bank, and this is where she get… and always she had many, you know in Jordan we have suitors, they come from any… to ask for the hand of the girl, but not necessarily saw her before. Some girls don’t accept that, but when she worked in that bank, she said, it deteriorated bank, because she used to work with foreign banks, but this is where she found her husband, and one time they made a workshop and she was upset because not so many interesting people then he was sitting beside, there cars were beside each other, so they got to know each other, but then I told her how did you... because they were in different buildings and different section she said, all of a sudden I got an email, so he knew her name, and they got introduced by the email and then they started to see each other of course, I said really, email is good, because sometimes you want to invent one way, because my husband he was a doctor in Zarqa and I was teaching in Ajloun, and we were in love, and I used to wait until the teachers room is empty to be able to call him suppose, and there are no other way like the mobile or fax.. I always say that my husband makes fun of me, you only think life there is for lovers, its for everybody, I say no, but I am remembering for waiting for a right moment to be able to make a call for you, I don’t want people to hear that I have somebody for example, and when there is no body in the teachers room I go and start the phone, and there was only the land line of course. And you know something like that, and at home, because you are afraid that somebody else will… the usual thing, although they know him he is a relative in the family, but still so I say now it is very easy, if I have my own fax you can send me a fax and I can read and anwer, and all these inventions and the most fascinating one for me until now is the fax I don’t know why. Like that, I was wondering how I put a paper here and it goes to the Un ited States after 2 minutes it is there, although other things are more fadcinating now, maybe the telephones, the mobile, but I keep thinking I am more fascinated by the fax. Maybe because it was the first thing like long distance or something. Unbelievable, because before you used something called telex, and I don’t know, maybe you don’t know the names now.

NP: I don’t remember telex. But the fax was the first.

LN: I cant remember what the telex… and even now, I was telling you about Cipher, because it is a secret diplomatic thing, communications, it is all numbers, and there is a key but not, I am sure they can do it by many other ways, but I never thought to ask, but when I went to the embassy I should have asked what do you use now instead, in the 70s it was different. You go and they put for you all numbers, suppose 15C3, and they have a key that changes every 2 months, and the key is here, and everything so for this month what does this number stand for? So you only put the letters and then you start, after you finish all the page you start to make words. Its like the official governmental language, all in numbers and this is the Cipher when I told you, maybe I should have noticed, but what is she doing what is she talking about? [Inaudible: 15:15]… so I am sure there are the emails and they could, and there are other things, maybe you can create something nobody can come to it, I don’t know, the most…

NP: is there anything I didn’t ask you that you think is important that you must tell me?

LN: let me think, like, no we said it all, maybe I should have read this before, like there was the women’s [Inaudible: 16:02]… they raised one of the mottos that a person is political so this is very important and it comes out of this, there is nothing, and it is true and this is the way I know, because I work with gender and sometimes I train, but I didn’t study this jargon and it is true, because sometimes it depends on the politics, because when there was a communist party and it started to reign, they wanted women to be everywhere and to work, and in other eras they wanted women to be in the saloons so it is very political when they wanted laborers, they used women, also in old revolutions they used women, and now when the Arab Spring revolutions, everybody is complaining about that the women in Alexandria, and they said they use the women, and then that’s it, when they finished the revolutions, you stay in your house, and sometimes they suspect that some factions are sending these people in for sexual harassment so to keep women at home. And that’s very true. So I wonder what will happen it is political. I will leave this on. Long CV you will get tired of it, and this is before, the EU format, and this is how they put it, when I used to do my own format I put on the first page all the things I did and then inside the details, so here…

NP: this is great, you have everything.

LN: because in the EU, they wanted this format, because one time there was a project they wanted everything, look, this is their description even, the duties and the position, the company and the location, sometimes it is difficult to, we received a fax.

NP: thank you.

LN: this is if you want to about the organizations I will leave this for you also if you like to look at it.

NP: yes, thank you.

LN: and this is Warrick University.

NP: thank you.

LN: Izzaldin Ibrahim, poor man he is getting old, and tired but maybe you met him…




2