Interview with Lina Ejeilat

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Interview with Lina Ejeilat
2014
TAPE 1
NICOLA PRAT: Can we begin by, you tell me about ?? when it started and your role
LINA EIJELAT: ?? music in Arabic and we started in 2007 ??
and someone of the cofounders it was me and to other friends, colleagues who like
essentially
we met through the blogging community ?? time blogs were still new ??
in 2004, 2005 a community of bloggers started growing in Jordan. There was a navigator
called Jordan Planet.
We kind of met through that community and then by end of 2006 we started feeling
that at the time there weren't many...
there wasn't this scene of like news websites in Jordan. ?? of local media that was
different from the mainstream media.
And we found blogs were offering something different but at the same time too many of
them, and when something starts
growing like that you can't really find the good things from the low quality things.
so anyway, the idea essentially was that we would start a website that combines what
we like about blogging ?? media
with like some kind of ??
and it started as a media platform essentially, we were like a small team and received
contributions from people ??
and we would publish encourage people to submit their stories and we would publish
and I think quickly or won't say quickly but like at first it was very slow and it was kind of
experimental but then
we think realized that ?? sit there by the computer and expect contributions to come
flooding.


We started kind of reaching out to different people, young people through workshops
or different kinds of activities that would
?? the community but also encourage people to produce content.
And there were a few ?? moments some of them not intentionally no. Obviously like for
example in 2008 during Ramadan
books at cafe, have you been there? so it was like the second year that they were open
during Ramadan ??
that was unusual you know. Now it's much more common but at the time it wasn't very
common and there was a particular license to be able to do that
and then 10 days into Ramadan I think the police ?? ministry ?? they came and it was
kind of an inspection and they shut down the place
and... so the owner was like very, you know he felt he wanted to tell his side of the story
so he sent us like a personal narrative and that inspired
a very interesting debate about our religious freedoms. The place also, you know
eventually religious freedoms and personal rights and what is public and what is private
and what you can do and you know respecting religious sentiments vs. being able to
have, to practice your freedoms was an interesting discussion
that ?/ into another discussion about homosexuality because that space kind of... the
owner you know he was, he is openly gay but the place was also kind of
often perceived by people I won't say perceived, its gay friendly but it was attacked in
the past for this reason.
so that also came into the discussion and ?? quite nasty but I thought it was interesting
to have these issues discussed publicly you know, like it wasn't very
often, actually it was until then you would not find this kind of thing in local media in
Jordan.
Then, I think as... but that was like one example. We had like a couple of pieces, random
pieces like that which I feel just emphasize the idea that we
were some kind of alternative media, you know that we would... that this was a space
where we were trying to get certain voiced and ideas across
that maybe we're not able to kind of find a space in other media outlets.


And I think ?? around the time that I was ?? my masters in journalism in the US. so I was
away in 2008 and 2009 for one year.
and a lot of things happened during that year because there was a war on Gaza and you
know we're not really like an advocacy group per se but we just,
one of our colleagues came with the idea at the time that's two days ??
to get donations for people in Gaza and then he thought it was going to be a small group
of people friends ?? collect a few small things and through somebody he knew we send
them into Gaza,
But then that was, I think that was we weren't still aware of the power of things like face
book because we were, it was still 2006, it was still kind of new here.
so anyway, but that was in 2008 obviously so basically we did call out that on the
website and we were overwhelmed of how many people showed up.
It was enormous number of people and the amount of donations they brought was way
more than we could possibly handle as a small group.
We were five at the time, that was the team but basically they... Aramex got involved
they offered their trucks and warehouses and for I think ??
volunteers were coming to the warehouse every night to help kind of repackage and ??
the donations.
But also this was interesting because we were constantly kind of publishing videos and
content on what's happening and on protests and things like that you know. So that was
one of those moments where more people were introduced to ?? people were
becoming more interested in cooperating with us.
Then we... basically ?? details but essentially ?? into this entity that is kind of both
online offline ?? website.
But also we were doing trainings, workshops on blogging and social media and
multimedia story telling video, photography
the things we do essentially, But we take on projects we go give ?? but also like civil
society, things like that.
sometimes like quite often especially civil society I feel like ?? they don't get told.
So for example ?? Canadian agency they have this social gender, gender social ??


and they were doing projects with women across Jordan but they wanted to work with
us to kind of tell some of those stories you know
of these women. So that was interesting. And that's when we started also figuring out
ways to generate income to help us
you know run the site ?? we wanted to because at that point one of us had like other
jobs and they were part time and full time
but like we couldn't rely on doing this, on this to make a living.
And eventually you know we started getting more projects and we were able to little by
little kind of... actually we had to just kind of focus on this
fulltime in order for it to grow and develop. And Arab Spring came, when the Arab
Spring started I feel like we happened to be at the right place
the right time because when people said they wanted to write and wanted to express
themselves and you know we were there
We already like really I would say we never, we were always publishing things that were
challenging taboos ??
but we didn't have a big audience but then what was happening in that moment with
the Arab Spring is that you know early on we would be publishing those pieces that
were you know it was just so exciting it was people, it wasn't like ?? but it was young
people talking about what it meant to them or
you know just what they thought should happen. You know talking about criticizing ?? in
Jordan and the army and the intelligence and interference in political life
and things like that you know.
And I think the more we published out these pieces then that would attract even more,
you know people who just wanted to get their voice out.
So that was a really exciting time, I think as an editor of the website I mean it's basically
??
and at first ?? but really like we were now receiving editing content and publishing ??
there was no... we weren't producing content ourselves
We started in 2011, I think because we saw that suddenly ?? twitter and that they were
discussing all these things they never discussed before


and they were sending us all these interesting contributions and so we felt this energy
and because we were already working with the community of
like bloggers and other people and before like organized like story nights and discussion
events and things like that.
So we started in early 2011 what we called hash tag debates which is an actual like
physical forum where people can come and we would have the ?? topic
?? more meant to like encourage a discussion between people who were present about
?? in Jordan.
So you know we did one about the general ?? reform in Jordan but something about the
constitution constitutional... what the constitutional monarchy means in
1952 Jordanian constitution. We talked about the role of intelligence cjI^LJmJI in political
life, we talked about the economic policy, you know public data?? some public figures
but it was very interesting to see them in discussion with the young audience that is like
very... how do I put it?
that was just like really ahead in terms of talking, voicing like publicly you know some of
the things we have issues with.
I remember we hosted in July 2011 Marwan Muasher and you know he thought he was
very progressive but the audience were just like
they felt like he was like not you know what's the word? he was too diplomatic, he
didn't call everything you know by its name
I mean they wanted him to be like more forthcoming and he, I think he also wrote about
that ?? he said like he was really surprised to how ahead this
kind of audience was. so that was exciting, you know it was really nice, it was a great
moment, he was reaching to them. And we were also like going
?? and like documenting you know filming and doing audio slideshows and photos and
??
But obviously the moment changed and the general mood changed and everything in
this region changed so then, so then we weren't getting interesting contributions
anymore and the debates were much more hard to organize because I think people
were kind of like tired of it they weren't inspired anymore


?? talk about the same things nothing was changing and it was like going around in
circles so, so it was in the year 2012 that we decided that we need to...
We always had the challenges funding our work so we would always apply for grants but
donors were more interested usually like nobody wanted
?? content production. They wanted to fund like in trainings or like specific projects ??
because we traded everything in a way that would save our work.
but then finally in 2012 we go a grant from Open Society Foundation. It was a one year
grant but enabled us just to kind ?? small team of journalists and you know, and you
know, well two journalists and video production and graphic designer to focus more on
producing content ourselves and we felt what we need to do is produce informative
engaging high quality content that would hopefully kind of inspire people to debate and
comment and that sort of thing.
And it's been an interesting transformation with the website in particular, you know
trying to find, We ?? like since 2012 ?? specifically to run the website
but, and also everything like we give trainings and do certain projects but we are also
now at a point where we are ?? and find ways to make it more independently
sustainable, you know financially sustainable so there's that. But also you know the
space, we just moved into this space a few months ago
and the idea is because ?? community base and there's workshops and debates and
things like that so we always felt it would be great if we could have a space
of our own. And so the idea of the space is partly it's our office to work but also there's
like this big room we use for film screenings or talks or we rented out to people who
want to do workshops or events ??
and here it's going to be coo working spaces so we're renting space to hopefully you
know people who ?? freelancers, independent groups
they just want ?? websites ?? and these guys just rented the space upstairs ?? in
Palestine like rented a part of this space for their team in Jordan
and there's a group of architects who want to do some design initiative and they rented
part of this space and so we are hoping this will also be an interesting community here.
There's another group, there's two women one is my sister but they are architects and
they want to start like a series of film screenings


of design architecture documentaries and so they are going to do it on the rooftop
upstairs.
it such a beautiful kind of rooftop terrace. So these would be like... we opened up the
space for people like this would be free but you know ??
brings people here and helps build a community.
One last thing we do because of our involvement, because we kind of grew out of this
internet like digital environment and we were always connected a community of Arab
bloggers you know and some other similar organizations in the region we co organized
Arab bloggers meeting in Amman in January and it was very exciting you know a
hundred people from different Arab countries but also other organizations that are ??
but we have people from like EFF and other digital rights ?? freedom related
organizations.
And the thing is what I want to say is also starting last year we started doing more
research in internet governance and digital rights.
So one of our colleagues, Reem, she has a ?? effort and we are being part ??
So we did research on internet governance and internet policy in Jordan but then also
because we got blocked last year
after ??
And I think we were already involved in the advocacy for more press freedom and
online internet freedom and ??
but then you know also everywhere in the middle of it so we've been like we've been
working closely in that area
and now there's like a small research team as well because we're working more on
those issues.
It's a really long interview
NP: It was really interesting. Could I start ?? blocked
LE: Yes, so basically the situation is in order so that law changed you need, if you're a
website that publishes anything related to Jordan


internal or external affairs, that's what the law says; you need to get license from the
personal publication department
but the law is very ?? like a face book page or a blog ?? we're not targeting social media
or blogs or whatever. We're just targeting
news websites because we need to regulate this area and ?? so...
But to get licensed you have to have certain requirements and they say ?? oh it's been
so easy and the government ??
to start with because it's so outdated like even print publications I think should be
required to get licensed. There should be... they should register
but not get a license from the government.
And so we were like ?? very much opposite to that but also they require to have ??
who is a member of the Jordan press association for at least four years, you know
And the Jordan press Association until 3 weeks ago, you know their law would not
acknowledge ??
for two years I still can't be a member of the Jordan Press Association. I got my masters
in journalism in the US I can't be a member of the
Jordan Press Association unless I do like a 6 months to one year training in a media
outlet that they acknowledge
And the media outlet that they acknowledge are essentially like mainstream or state
media so it almost feels like the idea is you have to have a gate keeper
who's somebody like with that kind of mainstream media mentality. And we don't want
to do that
We started out for this, like we started out because of the internet because we believe
that anybody can publish whatever they want
and so you know a lot of websites like what they did was actually went and just paid
somebody who's a member of the JPA just to use their...
just to use them as like an official intern chief without being an actual intern chief but
that's so ridiculous because this person is also
I mean it's ridiculous on different levels but also ??


and I think the law ??. you know if you just get a classic person from classic media they
would be like no we can't publish this you know.
But we are against this notion of license so we don't want to do that but Hiba.com got
blocked inside Jordan.
That's the only way they can block a site they need to block access to it inside Jordan so
we set up a mirror site; Heba.org
and to be honest I mean they could have blocked that but they didn't which in a way I
think maybe because most other websites gave in and got
licensed so maybe they just decided to let it pass. I don't know. I mean I feel like ?? they
intentionally kind of want to make ??
so you never know, who knows maybe they'll block us again maybe they wont
I mean our mirror site but you know until then we'll figure it out. But we have a big
followers on face book and twitter so you know
people can access the content we share the links people can access themselves. ??
NP: Had any problems from the... other problems like from like visits from ?? or
LE: They've come to the hash tag debate but that's like, it's actually normal you know.
They, one time actually, well sometimes they come and ??
but also like a couple a times ??
they asked people about ?? just watch it and take all the notes you want. It doesn't
really matter
we go a few ?? I mean nothing really very like in your face but we had just like a couple
of cases where...
there was one case where we were asked to take down an article, we didn't take it
down because it wasn't even like direct request
nobody actually said: Hello we're the this or that entity and we want you to take down
an article.
Somebody like, somebody ?? I think like told somebody who is related to one of our
partners you know


go tell them to take down that article. And then we did it, we were like you know, if you
have a problem come talk to ??
and then actually it happened with ?? article that somebody hacked into the system and
deleted it. they left it in trash so
we just restored it. But I was a little bit nervous at the time because I could see they
accessed the site through my account
so I like went and changed all the passwords and I was just like really paranoid but it
feels like somebody was just trying to send a message
like oh we could access things if we wanted. But then the article stayed you know, it was
fine and was shared like 5000 times
it was basically like you know these cars in Jordan they have, big trucks sometimes they
have a sticker on the back that says:
how do you see my driving? but in Arabic the word driving and ?? are the same ??
so basically somebody used that, this writer used that title: How do you see my Jordan/
leadership
and basically it was like a five point assessment of why the king is not has not been a...
you know doesn't have leadership qualities
that was widely shared and think what was interesting was that people, things has
definitely changed because people would share them on their face book page
and they would actually express agreement with these articles in a way that is very open
in public and so it's not just about writing something
or publishing something. The fact that people share these contents so openly and
actively you know this is an interesting indication.
And really to be honest like we haven't received much... we haven't received any??
they don't have to bother too much
NP: You mentioned that at some point you stopped receiving interesting content and
lost some of the energy
that had started with the Arab Spring ??


can you think of another exact moment or a turning point when that started to happen
or was it very gradual, so gradual you barely...?
LE: ??, I mean first of all in Jordan it was interesting to know, I mean I consider this like a
turning point locally in Jordan
?? were small but they were gaining momentum you know, they were gaining
momentum, e gaining momentum until there was this...
they were always happening downtown on Friday but then there's this protest there's
this movement.
I mean now ?? people say it was the Islamists , it was this or that
but at that moment there was ??
and it's interesting because they wanted to actually sleep overnight and it was and it
was at a new location which is IjJI jljd
Dakhlyee circle which is a big major intersection in Amman and they wanted to spend
the night there
?? but how do you even know??
so then ?? first of all ?? big march or demonstration or whatever ??
it was called c-lJo which means how can I translate that? like your countries call or
something like that you know
and they actually had like billboards in the street and full page adds in the newspaper, I
mean this wasn't something that was spontaneous or...
they kept claiming that ??
but they kept claiming that this was ?? by private sector entities that media believed in
this you know
and ?? I mean it wasn't independent it was, we are called Jordan Youth Commission
who I mean were ??
and we are ?? like is actually was very ?? by the intelligence or controlled by... I mean
am saying this but don't quote me on this
because it's not something that is documented with tangible evidence but it's kind of ??
you know


but in any case what they did was that they were calling for this big thing in Al Hussein
Park you know
they wanted to get around 5000 or something you know.
And I feel it was you know that they ?? the protestors are not preventative of what
Jordanians want and that you know
the majority of people are behind his majesty the king in the reforms that he wants to
introduce
So anyway, I mean I don't ?? what happened in Friday ??
we're starting Thursday you know security forces wanted to prevent protesters from
spending the night there
they cut off electricity from the circle then people started, some people you know thugs
or whatever started throwing rocks at the protestors
?? and then people ??
people were planning to go, went on Friday to the protest to jljd so then there
were two events
there was jJI and there was that other thing and basically for at the time you
know
one person sent to us this testimony of what happened on 4*L>IjJI on Thursday night
you know
we published that and then suddenly that post was just like getting all those views ??
personal testimony
then we were there on Friday and there was a lot of media there on Friday who covered
this but in the end it's interesting because you had this small
group of people who were throwing rocks at the protestors and the police was just like
creating this barrier between the two groups
but the police was not like arresting people who were throwing rocks, they just like the
said: we have to be balanced we can't take sides
literally like I asked this police officer I was there taking photos I was there as a
journalist but it just drives you crazy because


I feel like at first this group would be yelling curses at this group and this group would be
just chanting slogans or whatever
and then every half hour this group would start like throwing rocks and the police... it's
such a charade it was theatrical, they started running after the people
who were throwing rocks and then telling them you are not supposed to do that oh
no. Anyway that went on for hours then it actually started getting pretty tense. Like
these people went up to the over pass or just started throwing rocks from up top
and there was ?? building they started throwing bricks from the top of the building.
I t was terrible. And then a group of people came from that
TAPE 2
LINA: protest from that demonstration?? to the circle and I saw them they came with
like these sticks and rocks
and some of them actually with nothing they were just like happy young people draped
in the traditional scarf and carrying photos of the king
and things like that. And they came because somebody told them that there's this group
of you know, what did they call it?
that this is just a small group that is chanting unacceptable slogans about Jordan or
against the king or against you know the country
and then that gave the ?? and the police an excuse to kind of step in a ?? protests more
likely with water cannons and I feel like in the media
the next day I was working ?? at the time and=d I was feeding like stories to ?? on the
phone ??
and at first you know ?? brief and then first update and then second update and then
finally the warp at the end of the day and the wrap at the end of the day
was essentially that it was clashes between pro government and antigovernment
groups.
it wasn't clashes you know, and it was interesting you know at the time to obviously see
how sometimes the big news media things need to be simplified


things sometimes need to be labeled they need to be edited down somehow.
??
but so basically there's so much that changed in Jordan in the narrative after that day
because all of a sudden you saw this
so first of all at that night after the protests were dispersed and everything, there were
some people literally celebrating on Dakhlyye circle
the fact that they were able to cleanse the circle from the traitors you know, that sort of
thing and then they made it... unfortunately in Jordan you know
the regime really services by fuelling this narrative of you know ??
so they tried to kind of play on that division you know and make people afraid of each
other but really I was there and I'm sure someone actually was there that day and like
she was talking about how ??
it was such a mixed group of protestors I mean I don't think I ever saw that again in
Jordan what I really like it was people that I've never seen ??
there were Islamists and liberals, women and men, the older people and the younger
people I mean I don't want to exaggerate there was like a couple of thousand people
but it was significant you know and for us ?? you know at the time we published, we had
like photos you know that we published ,videos that we published and then
testimonials, it was just simple testimonials, people were there who said this is what
happened to me you know
and they are young people and they are not part of political parties and they are, they
were there because they believed in something you know
so we published a lot of that content and then we actually started receiving a lot of, at
that point suddenly we started getting these commenter's who were very
it was terrible comments it was hate comments it was like very, some people said ?? 24
movement and then but sometimes some comments were very like
for example anti Palestinian or like we had, there was one young woman writer who
wrote a lot for ?? she started getting attacked personally you know
terrible nasty comments ?? somebody would tell me like you have to delete this
comment cause we didn't have ?? so things, comments would appear


and then if people ?? we can review and delete, and again I don't want to exaggerate
but there was a bit of that like in that moment
you would drive in Jordan and there were like ?? flags suddenly like flags everywhere
people ?? flags at traffic lights you know flags ??
like suddenly people feeling they should express ?? nationalism you know.
and again people ?? oh somebody wanted to ?? Jordan or you know but after that we
still had a lot of like really interesting content coming in
I think through April you know May we had... through the summer ?? summer what was
happening in the region, Syria started in March
but it was very clear what was happening in Syria early on. But Libya was so messy that
summer, you know there was the ?? and like the NATO ??
and then ?? so just that summer it was you know ?? oh wait but also you know oh wait
what is this Arab spring and what's happening?
it's not as romantic as you know we thought it is at the beginning
but that was very gradual so yeah I would say that there wasn't a very exact moment
but in Jordan no police or after that march 25th thing
protests did start to kind of wind down a little bit you know. July 15th there was a
protest it wasn't even a big protest but like media were attacked
and ?? moments but then it was also gradual then there was Syria and Syria like
completely divided opposition in Jordan cause you had like
the classical leftist and anti-imperialist's who were like very much pro the regime in
Jordan in Syria and then but also people were pro revolution but that
created like it was a very like you know ?? fiction it's just very it's not like just a typical
disagreement in opinion
you know it was very fundamental so the yeah it was gradual. It was gradual but then
also you know you just kind of start seeing how there was this general sentiment that
things will change in Jordan ?? circles and circles and then also people didn't know what
they want anymore


like there was so much instability Egypt's elections you know ?? what happened and
then the Islamists came and then you know there was all that unrest in Egypt and then
so you know I think all of these things played a role
NP: just to... okay ?? to what got you interested in... what got you into blogging?
LE: I always wanted to be a journalist when I was young and I don't know why I just
always did and then., but I also like I was
I came from a family like very... family of nerds you know you know we were very kind
of I don't know A students and science oriented that sort of thing
so ?? but generally you know like this notion of studying journalism was not very you
know encouraged let's just say
but also I liked math and I liked physics and I liked... so I was also ?? I wanted to be a
journalist but like ?? it was like kind of confusing so I went into electrical engineering as
an underground. And I went to electrical engineering because I loved math but I like
early on realized like what am I doing I don't want to do this
but I also like didn't... so what I did was at university, at the university of Jordan... the
university of Jordan was you know ??
but it was an interesting environment like you learn so much in Jordan and socially
politically kind of you know very... very eye opening very interesting
so I joined the press and media club on campus during my first year and then I could see
hoe like the ?? of student affairs whatever this like entity that was in charge of student
clubs you know, they just interfere with everything there like ?? secure mentality
probably??
run by like people from the intelligence were probably deposited there like in different
positions
and so you know ?? approve everyone they won't let you get anyone from outside the
campus you wanted to publish things you need to approve things
you know there was one student newspaper ?? because the editor in chief and the
managing editor were like employees one was the dean of students and one was just an
employee at the that department and so I worked with that newspaper for a couple of
years and it was fine like we used to publish normal content but


then one time I wrote an up and about just about something that happened on campus
like how they ?? campaign inside the university supermarket and they
were letting students taste different... it was outrageous to be honest I just... I wrote
this column and just before it went to print the dean decided
that this article can't be published, and that was my first experience of censorship like
personally and it was just, I was outraged I mean it was ridiculous
?? I even went to the... and there was a lunch and the president was there and I went to
the president and I complained and I told him what happened
and then the dean was like oh but this article was very... would damage the university's
reputation it's just a classical kind of censorship mentality
but anyway, the I found a student magazine that was independent like private ??
published off campus called on campus magazine
and I worked at on campus magazine for two or three years and it was fun and it was
great but it was still you know kind of limited in
because you know you could produce like a feature or an interview you were limited in
space and limited in the scope of topics they're interested in, that sort of thing.
and that's when I discovered blogging I was still at university and I was part of... I was a
member on this website called Taking It Global
and it was a really nice kind of international community website platform for people
from different places but they had a blog section in their website
I remember they sent me I think it was my twenty second birthday they sent like an
Ecard but you know and they said why don't you blog about it
something like that you know, and that's when I started like that's when I wrote my first
blog post it was very personal and then somebody from Jordan saw that and he said oh
by the way ?? Jordan planet or you should start a blog ?? and then I saw Jordan planet
and I think it only had like 20 members
I think I was member 21 or something. So I started a blog Natasha Times which is a
Jordanian journalist and blogger and I think she had a blog at the time
but I ?? I sent her an email and she like encouraged me to blog and I started my blog
and it was great because you know I could write whatever I wanted


whenever I wanted and I took pretty seriously it was very nice and I got to meet like this
community of bloggers who were very different and very interesting people. And that's
how I started and so I worked... I didn't work in engineering ?? when I graduated I got a
job... I was working part time my last semester at university with Zain the
telecommunication company but like we had a youth department and they were doing
projects in universities so I was working there
and I thought... and then they offered me a fulltime job when I graduated and I thought
that was perfect transition out of engineering
so was slightly related to engineering but not very much. I worked there for one year
and I was working as a freelancer with Jo magazine in Jordan
at like the same time then I quit Zain and I was working fulltime with Jo and applied for
the masters and I went and did the masters and that was that.
NP: what sort of things did you use to blog about?
LE: I mean different things. I mean there was... sometimes it was just kind of an
observation, sometimes it was... I wrote a few things about like political issues on
campus like student council elections and the Islamists on campus or you know things
like that. But also some things related to women's issues and some things related to
media freedoms and I mean it was kind of relevant. Some things related just to the city
you know, Amman kind of urban cultural issues
so it was a mix of things, what's interesting was at the beginning nobody I knew, knew
my blog so I kind of had space which was nice
to be honest I admit that when my parents discovered my blog I became a bit self
conscious and then when more people I knew you know kind of
family and like that started reading my blog I just became less personal on the blog so I
just I think and a lot of people told me that
you know first couple of years there's a very like... there's more personal like more of
me personally in my blog like ?? and observations and things
but then it gradually started to become less personal. I mean I was writing about things
that I was interested in but it last person and I think I mean this goes without saying but
there's a lot of self censorship that comes from just kind of family you know and society
so


I remember I wrote something once where I was criticizing an article on ?? this website
and the way they were talking about they did what they called an investigation about
gays in Jordan but it was horrible you know homophobic terrible peace by like all
standards you know
by like any standards even like any journalistic standards ?? of that and you know my
dad was kind of like you have to be careful what topics you write about
you don't want to be misunderstood you know, just sometimes I mean things have
changed so much obviously over the past few years but I feel like
I feel like it's interesting that I... when I started blogging I thought I would always I mean
never stop blogging but then by 2009 I just stopped you know
so I did for like 4 years.
NP: and the reason you stopped was to do this ??
LE: well a number of things to be honest first of all on a very ?? level it has to do with
time you know, like by the time I went to grad school
I was just like I maybe I wrote 2 or 3 posts from work and then I just stopped partly it
was time
partly ?? so you know I think like when ?? school and started wanting to be a better
journalist I was just like things weren't as spontaneous anymore
I wasn't this comfortable writing a post quickly and publishing it I just became like too
much of a perfectionist
so that was, that made it harder to blog cause then it would take too much time and
then also partly because there were so many things I wanted to
write about that I just kind of not sure can publically in my name write about and things,
they're not political ideas so social ideas they are things
they're just very kind of personal sometimes I don't know. I mean I don't have to write
about these things there were so many other things I would write about but just the fact
that I... there are things I feel like writing about but I'm not. you know just makes me
feel like you know what I not enough
?? but recently like in the past couple of ?? I just felt like most of my energy ?? anyway
so yes it was a mix I don't know what it is now but you know


one more reason that made me not want to blog anymore is that to me like writing is a
process you know especially when you're like I'm 31 now but
like in my early twenties when I started blogging it was just me discovering you know my
city and what I thought and society around me
it was just it was a very interesting kind of process of growing and exploring and the
problem is when you write something you know
people don't receive it as a process they look at it as just an end product sometimes
you're also like really held to things you've published online
and I think this is like something we have all come to realize which is that internet is
infinite memory and sometimes a little bit of like
kind of holding back is not a bad thing you know because your thought kind of evolve
and change so
NP: can I ask how you evaluate the experience of ?? I mean what do you think about the
impact it's making or...
LE: I do. I mean I personally like sometimes ?? I sit here and I just like look at how far we
have come and I think it's just so exciting
you know and especially like also now you know we've you know our team has grown to
like 15,16 people you know
it's, you know we have been able to hire you know smart young journalists you know
and I just feel like it's so exciting to me to see that they you know are happy working
here and feel that they can do stories they can't do anywhere else
NP: scared?
LE: YEAH
NP: ??jet
LE: ??. so you know it's just exciting to see that they like sometimes they say things like
they like here in Jordan they don't know where else they could
work where they can actually work on these stories or you know ?? ideas ?? so in that
sense I feel like we're onto something it's exciting


sometimes the thing is I ?? moment like in 2011 it was real it wasn't imagined or we
didn't exaggerate it was real and there was really like something amazing going on and I
don't want to exaggerate ?? like we didn't have an impact on a wider scale or anything
but for a lot of people it really meant something and I see a lot of people today they're
like we want the hash tag debates back and like we want 2011 back
you know it's just a... sometimes you can't recreate something when like all the
circumstances are different so it was like...
so on one hand yes I feel like we've built a community and there's like you know there
are a lot of comments that people send sometimes that mean a lot to me
you know for example you know even though it's we're not big and we don't have
massive hits and we don't reach a big audience
it's a small audience still but at least there's a space where people feel like ?? like very
independent honest and where like a lot of issues related you know
you know quite often to women or freedom of expression or just I don't know things
like that you know
it's a space where we talk about these issues so I mean we still need to do much more,
you know I feel sometimes I'm kind of I want to say 7 years
I feel like 7 years is a long time and I feel like a lot should have grown faster and sooner
maybe you know
but it was very organic you know it was very gradual very organic and you know it was,
it started as this kind of small citizen media platform and now
you know now we actually say the word online magazine we are an independent online
magazine that just tackles ??
and more engaged and different intellectual audience.
NP: I did have a look at the ?? website
LE: I'm going to show you we've been having ?? design come out on Sunday?? very self
conscious about this I have to tell you something
on one hand I think it's very important to be self critical because it's important.
Sometimes I feel we're too self critical I kind of go back and forth


but I think airing on the side of two self critical is better, better than... so the site is
going to look like, just like very subtle ??
it's a work in progress so there's going to be more changes coming up but you know
we're redesigning to give our content more shelf live and to kind of
make it more user friendly and help people navigate things but pixel is ?? sorry ?? sorry I
need to tell the guy
but for example oh no actually that's on the new site, yeah sorry go ahead you were
saying
NP: that looks very... looks amazing but I was going to say what I thought was really
interesting that it's all in Arabic
or most of it
LE: most of it is in Arabic, actually well actually you're going to look on the new site for
now it's actually going to be even more like in Arabic
only because like the mixing of Arabic and English was just design wise very challenging
but we're, but we still want to have English content
and I think it's important for us to have like this bilingual content so we're going to work
on like having an English tag where you can actually
just go and access all of the English content in a way that's like easier to navigate and
explore
It's interesting because I feel like this is this question has so much to do with you know
we've always, we're always asking ourselves like who our audience is and
we are trying to achieve all kind of impact, we are trying to achieve, when we started we
started in English but that was like ?? for a short period of time
because we quickly like realized that we have to be bilingual and then for a long time
actually until 2010 we had more English content than Arabic
and 2011 was a turning point when there was way more Arabic content than English.
And then it just became like predominantly Arabic
and a little bit of English, things like the photo essays though, we're going to have ?? our
photography blog it and with pixel it's easier to cause it's like photo essays, photo


stories that this one is about migrant government workers in Jordan so it's easier to do
it like bilingual you know
but not everything, we don't have the capacity yet to do everything in both languages
but yeah I think the key thing for us was to reach
to reach an Arabic speaking audience you know to have more impact in that area
because that's where really there's so much is lacking and so much can be done and
introduced.
Np: when in 2011 when we had this explosion of Arabic content was that, people, new
people?
LE: yeah. It was a mix it was....
NP: or people who were blogging in English deciding to switch to Arabic
LE: oh no, It was both. I know I mean we know a lot of people who used to write in
English then started switching to Arabic
but no, but also a lot of new people you know so it was you know...
NP: it's interesting because I noticed on my facebook page cause I have a lot of Egyptian
friends that in 2011 a lot of people just stopped writing in English
everything in Arabic
LE: but you know what's interesting? I feel also is just part of a... It's not political but it's
also part of there is some kind of a trend
like a lot of us you know we... you know if you spoke good English if you went to a
private school you know you consumed a lot of content in English
and so you know it's... it was very common you know even now people would like send
emails to each other in English you know
they would send text messages in English or mix Arabic and English
or write Arabic in English you know transliteration but then in the past you know few
years I've noticed that more people are writing in Arabic
you know even like the spoken Arabic slang but just and for me personally but also like
part of like running this website you know we just in the past


I wouldn't write emails in Arabic just because you know I lacked that kind of language
like it wasn't something I was used to but then now
it's just the norm so I think that's also part of an important you know hopefully kind of
??
NP: ??
LE: yeah, absolutely ??
Np: yeah sure. I have one more question, so I'm interested to know what sort of change
you're hoping ??
I want to assume actually that you are and I hope that you're hoping to change things in
Jordan but do you see a relationship...
do you hope there's a relationship between giving people this platform where they can
express themselves and generate sort of ?? change in Jordan?
LE: yes of course, no of course, to be honest I mean like for us you know it's you know
we set like as a team of like cofounders our partners in the company there's 6 of us and
we would have these like meetings every 6 months or something and you know we
would be talking about vision and strategy of what we want to do and kind of review
how far we've come, things like that you know assessment of our work and I remember
like one time it was 2 years ago I think
yeah I remember when we met and we were just talking about ?? to us and where what
would we hope to achieve and that sort of thing
and we were like throwing around a lot of different ideas and trying to articulate things
and you know... but then I think just one of us really spoke for all of us
and kind of summed it up is that we really want to I mean of course there is a... there
isn't some sort of idealistic drive behind this which is that we want
we want to make things better you know, we want to change things for the better and
by that you know I'm not saying that we as ??
are going to do that but we are going to contribute you know in a small way and
hopefully there's going to be a lot of other like different things
and there are a lot of other different things and for now there are like small maybe but
like I ask myself all the time like sometimes you know maybe


maybe it's just kind of a naive early twenties sort of mentality to just kind of be oh I'm
going to change things but at the same time I mean I look at
like how do societies change you know? they you know I like read I think it was ??
Johnson who said at ?? and you read about women in Network in the 50s
and it was like you know you could really relate
TAPE 3
and this, there's so many kind of similarities in how people thought and kind of again
some kind of maybe not the 50s maybe before but like patriarchy or ?? one example
social issues but that's not the main thing but like just freedoms you know kind of
awareness in self realization you know and that sort of thing
I mean there's so many other countries and so many other societies you know were in a
terrible place and they've managed to, they've , managed to completely
like move somewhere else. So you know I think it's possible although sometimes you
know you just start to think that we're stuck in a bubble maybe it's a few ??
maybe nothing's going to change in our life times and maybe it really is better to kind of
move somewhere else but I still think that like especially here in Amman you know ??
very refreshed like that's what I meant by like this community that is around us. It's not
just ?? here there's also like the you know there's all the other independent kind of
cutler art spaces and we actually are starting to collaborate like to sit together and talk
and explore ways that we can do things together and I feel like you know the more
people are doing that you know you start to you know change something.
sorry that was a very incoherent answer but I just...
NP: no, no, I mean ?? ask a follow up question. So do you see yourself as part of a
movement or a... you mentioned all these ?? initiatives so
do you think ?? like a...
LE: I think it's too early to call it a movement you know. But it's what I hope would
become a movement you know. I just... and again you know I just


I think really like having a... having a professional independent... having professional
independent content that respects people's intelligence that you know pushes the
boundaries that talks about things that that ?? talking about. Hopefully we will kind of
contribute to you know putting more of this in the public sphere
giving people you know... hopefully getting people to like think about things differently
or actually not just think about things differently sometimes you want meaning to...
sometimes people need to see that like when I have like we wrote down like a list of like
what is good content you know. What is the kind of content we try to produce and
that's like our kind of mini... I don't want to say ?? but just like little kind of guidelines.
And one of them is that you know sometimes there are these things that are on people's
minds but that they need to see in print. They need to see in front of them and so
sometimes you know it's just so... it's kind of reassuring when somebody says it out loud
so you know we do a lot of media criticism which I acknowledge as dangerous because if
we just keep kind of acting like a media watchdog then we really can't afford to make
any mistakes. But yeah I don't know it's a learning process it's interesting.
I think on a personal level you know I just like ?? has been... I love the team I really,
really, really love them. I mean they're just... they're not all the same you know. They're
not all... they don't all think the same but they... but there's just something about them
where you know I feel like I get a lot of energy out of them, you know
NP: is there a thing I didn't ask you about that you think is important?
LE: I don't know ?? but I think you know it's interesting ?? I would think like for example
I've become much more... I think it's part of growing up and you know it's just naturally
you kind of become more cynical about certain things or more critical or more... some
people I know would tell me sometimes ??
just because like we're very critical about certain things you know politically and how
things operate and things that happen in Jordan.
and sometimes again, sometimes you see very clearly where certain things are pointless
definitely pointless to engage in and other things you know you try to kind of invest your
energy, things where you hope to have some impact and so it's interesting to me where
I sometimes I come off as like maybe cynical or negative in certain situations here but
then I was just in the US for three weeks visiting my sisters and some friends and I went
to this ?? my classmates and there I come off as like the idealist enthusiastic very
positive person who actually thinks that you know there's something worth staying for
in this country


so because I mean a lot of my friends you know they're like really smart and but they
just like some of them for example are doctors who went to do their medical ?? in the
US and chose to just not come back to Jordan. So they just want to stay there others you
know are you know, other people who were able to get jobs elsewhere are just like you
know; what's keeping you in Amman? One of my friends is doing PHD like in Boston
she's brilliant, she's really smart she's a scientist you know at heart and like I know that
it's very difficult for her to come back because what would she do? you know
So yeah sometimes we're torn but... something weird is going on
NP: yeah, Thank you so much

Interview with Lina Ejeilat
2014
TAPE 1
NICOLA PRAT: Can we begin by, you tell me about ?? when it started and your role
LINA EIJELAT: ?? music in Arabic and we started in 2007 ??
and someone of the cofounders it was me and to other friends, colleagues who like essentially
we met through the blogging community ?? time blogs were still new ??
in 2004, 2005 a community of bloggers started growing in Jordan. There was a navigator called Jordan Planet.
We kind of met through that community and then by end of 2006 we started feeling that at the time there weren’t many...
there wasn’t this scene of like news websites in Jordan. ?? of local media that was different from the mainstream media.
And we found blogs were offering something different but at the same time too many of them. and when something starts
growing like that you can’t really find the good things from the low quality things.
so anyway, the idea essentially was that we would start a website that combines what we like about blogging ?? media
with like some kind of ??
and it started as a media platform essentially, we were like a small team and received contributions from people ??
and we would publish encourage people to submit their stories and we would publish
and I think quickly or won’t say quickly but like at first it was very slow and it was kind of experimental but then
we think realized that ?? sit there by the computer and expect contributions to come flooding.
We started kind of reaching out to different people, young people through workshops or different kinds of activities that would
?? the community but also encourage people to produce content.
And there were a few ?? moments some of them not intentionally no. Obviously like for example in 2008 during Ramadan
books at cafe, have you been there? so it was like the second year that they were open during Ramadan ??
that was unusual you know. Now it's much more common but at the time it wasn't very common and there was a particular license to be able to do that
and then 10 days into Ramadan I think the police ?? ministry ?? they came and it was kind of an inspection and they shut down the place
and... so the owner was like very, you know he felt he wanted to tell his side of the story so he sent us like a personal narrative and that inspired
a very interesting debate about our religious freedoms. The place also, you know eventually religious freedoms and personal rights and what is public and what is private and what you can do and you know respecting religious sentiments vs. being able to have, to practice your freedoms was an interesting discussion
that ?/ into another discussion about homosexuality because that space kind of... the owner you know he was, he is openly gay but the place was also kind of
often perceived by people I won’t say perceived, its gay friendly but it was attacked in the past for this reason.
so that also came into the discussion and ?? quite nasty but I thought it was interesting to have these issues discussed publicly you know, like it wasn’t very
often, actually it was until then you would not find this kind of thing in local media in Jordan.
Then, I think as... but that was like one example. We had like a couple of pieces, random pieces like that which I feel just emphasize the idea that we
were some kind of alternative media, you know that we would... that this was a space where we were trying to get certain voiced and ideas across
that maybe we're not able to kind of find a space in other media outlets.
And I think ?? around the time that I was ?? my masters in journalism in the US. so I was away in 2008 and 2009 for one year.
and a lot of things happened during that year because there was a war on Gaza and you know we're not really like an advocacy group per se but we just,
one of our colleagues came with the idea at the time that’s two days ??
to get donations for people in Gaza and then he thought it was going to be a small group of people friends ?? collect a few small things and through somebody he knew we send them into Gaza,
But then that was, I think that was we weren’t still aware of the power of things like face book because we were, it was still 2006, it was still kind of new here.
so anyway, but that was in 2008 obviously so basically we did call out that on the website and we were overwhelmed of how many people showed up.
It was enormous number of people and the amount of donations they brought was way more than we could possibly handle as a small group.
We were five at the time, that was the team but basically they... Aramex got involved they offered their trucks and warehouses and for I think ??
volunteers were coming to the warehouse every night to help kind of repackage and ?? the donations.
But also this was interesting because we were constantly kind of publishing videos and content on what's happening and on protests and things like that you know. So that was one of those moments where more people were introduced to ?? people were becoming more interested in cooperating with us.
Then we... basically ?? details but essentially ?? into this entity that is kind of both online offline ?? website.
But also we were doing trainings, workshops on blogging and social media and multimedia story telling video, photography
the things we do essentially, But we take on projects we go give ?? but also like civil society, things like that.
sometimes like quite often especially civil society I feel like ?? they don’t get told.
So for example ?? Canadian agency they have this social gender, gender social ??
and they were doing projects with women across Jordan but they wanted to work with us to kind of tell some of those stories you know
of these women. So that was interesting. And that's when we started also figuring out ways to generate income to help us
you know run the site ?? we wanted to because at that point one of us had like other jobs and they were part time and full time
but like we couldn’t rely on doing this, on this to make a living.
And eventually you know we started getting more projects and we were able to little by little kind of... actually we had to just kind of focus on this
fulltime in order for it to grow and develop. And Arab Spring came, when the Arab Spring started I feel like we happened to be at the right place
the right time because when people said they wanted to write and wanted to express themselves and you know we were there
We already like really I would say we never, we were always publishing things that were challenging taboos ??
but we didn’t have a big audience but then what was happening in that moment with the Arab Spring is that you know early on we would be publishing those pieces that were you know it was just so exciting it was people, it wasn’t like ?? but it was young people talking about what it meant to them or
you know just what they thought should happen. You know talking about criticizing ?? in Jordan and the army and the intelligence and interference in political life
and things like that you know.
And I think the more we published out these pieces then that would attract even more, you know people who just wanted to get their voice out.
So that was a really exciting time, I think as an editor of the website I mean it's basically ??
and at first ?? but really like we were now receiving editing content and publishing ?? there was no... we weren’t producing content ourselves
We started in 2011, I think because we saw that suddenly ?? twitter and that they were discussing all these things they never discussed before
and they were sending us all these interesting contributions and so we felt this energy and because we were already working with the community of
like bloggers and other people and before like organized like story nights and discussion events and things like that.
So we started in early 2011 what we called hash tag debates which is an actual like physical forum where people can come and we would have the ?? topic
?? more meant to like encourage a discussion between people who were present about ?? in Jordan.
So you know we did one about the general ?? reform in Jordan but something about the constitution constitutional... what the constitutional monarchy means in
1952 Jordanian constitution. We talked about the role of intelligence المخابرات in political life, we talked about the economic policy, you know public data?? some public figures but it was very interesting to see them in discussion with the young audience that is like very... how do I put it?
that was just like really ahead in terms of talking, voicing like publicly you know some of the things we have issues with.
I remember we hosted in July 2011 Marwan Muasher and you know he thought he was very progressive but the audience were just like
they felt like he was like not you know what's the word? he was too diplomatic, he didn’t call everything you know by its name
I mean they wanted him to be like more forthcoming and he, I think he also wrote about that ?? he said like he was really surprised to how ahead this
kind of audience was. so that was exciting, you know it was really nice. it was a great moment, he was reaching to them. And we were also like going
?? and like documenting you know filming and doing audio slideshows and photos and ??
But obviously the moment changed and the general mood changed and everything in this region changed so then, so then we weren’t getting interesting contributions anymore and the debates were much more hard to organize because I think people were kind of like tired of it they weren’t inspired anymore
?? talk about the same things nothing was changing and it was like going around in circles so, so it was in the year 2012 that we decided that we need to...
We always had the challenges funding our work so we would always apply for grants but donors were more interested usually like nobody wanted
?? content production. They wanted to fund like in trainings or like specific projects ?? because we traded everything in a way that would save our work.
but then finally in 2012 we go a grant from Open Society Foundation. It was a one year grant but enabled us just to kind ?? small team of journalists and you know, and you know, well two journalists and video production and graphic designer to focus more on producing content ourselves and we felt what we need to do is produce informative engaging high quality content that would hopefully kind of inspire people to debate and comment and that sort of thing.
And it's been an interesting transformation with the website in particular, you know trying to find, We ?? like since 2012 ?? specifically to run the website
but, and also everything like we give trainings and do certain projects but we are also now at a point where we are ?? and find ways to make it more independently sustainable, you know financially sustainable so there’s that. But also you know the space, we just moved into this space a few months ago
and the idea is because ?? community base and there's workshops and debates and things like that so we always felt it would be great if we could have a space
of our own. And so the idea of the space is partly it's our office to work but also there's like this big room we use for film screenings or talks or we rented out to people who want to do workshops or events ??
and here it’s going to be coo working spaces so we're renting space to hopefully you know people who ?? freelancers, independent groups
they just want ?? websites ?? and these guys just rented the space upstairs ?? in Palestine like rented a part of this space for their team in Jordan
and there's a group of architects who want to do some design initiative and they rented part of this space and so we are hoping this will also be an interesting community here. There's another group, there's two women one is my sister but they are architects and they want to start like a series of film screenings
of design architecture documentaries and so they are going to do it on the rooftop upstairs.
it such a beautiful kind of rooftop terrace. So these would be like... we opened up the space for people like this would be free but you know ??
brings people here and helps build a community.
One last thing we do because of our involvement, because we kind of grew out of this internet like digital environment and we were always connected a community of Arab bloggers you know and some other similar organizations in the region we co organized Arab bloggers meeting in Amman in January and it was very exciting you know a hundred people from different Arab countries but also other organizations that are ??
but we have people from like EFF and other digital rights ?? freedom related organizations.
And the thing is what I want to say is also starting last year we started doing more research in internet governance and digital rights.
So one of our colleagues, Reem, she has a ?? effort and we are being part ??
So we did research on internet governance and internet policy in Jordan but then also because we got blocked last year
after ??
And I think we were already involved in the advocacy for more press freedom and online internet freedom and ??
but then you know also everywhere in the middle of it so we've been like we've been working closely in that area
and now there's like a small research team as well because we're working more on those issues.
It's a really long interview
NP: It was really interesting. Could I start ?? blocked
LE: Yes, so basically the situation is in order so that law changed you need, if you're a website that publishes anything related to Jordan
internal or external affairs, that's what the law says; you need to get license from the personal publication department
but the law is very ?? like a face book page or a blog ?? we're not targeting social media or blogs or whatever. We're just targeting
news websites because we need to regulate this area and ?? so...
But to get licensed you have to have certain requirements and they say ?? oh it's been so easy and the government ??
to start with because it's so outdated like even print publications I think should be required to get licensed. There should be... they should register
but not get a license from the government.
And so we were like ?? very much opposite to that but also they require to have ??
who is a member of the Jordan press association for at least four years, you know
And the Jordan press Association until 3 weeks ago, you know their law would not acknowledge ??
for two years I still can’t be a member of the Jordan Press Association. I got my masters in journalism in the US I can't be a member of the
Jordan Press Association unless I do like a 6 months to one year training in a media outlet that they acknowledge
And the media outlet that they acknowledge are essentially like mainstream or state media so it almost feels like the idea is you have to have a gate keeper
who's somebody like with that kind of mainstream media mentality. And we don’t want to do that
We started out for this, like we started out because of the internet because we believe that anybody can publish whatever they want
and so you know a lot of websites like what they did was actually went and just paid somebody who's a member of the JPA just to use their...
just to use them as like an official intern chief without being an actual intern chief but that's so ridiculous because this person is also
I mean it's ridiculous on different levels but also ??
and I think the law ??. you know if you just get a classic person from classic media they would be like no we can’t publish this you know.
But we are against this notion of license so we don’t want to do that but Hiba.com got blocked inside Jordan.
That's the only way they can block a site they need to block access to it inside Jordan so we set up a mirror site; Heba.org
and to be honest I mean they could have blocked that but they didn’t which in a way I think maybe because most other websites gave in and got
licensed so maybe they just decided to let it pass. I don’t know. I mean I feel like ?? they intentionally kind of want to make ??
so you never know, who knows maybe they'll block us again maybe they wont
I mean our mirror site but you know until then we'll figure it out. But we have a big followers on face book and twitter so you know
people can access the content we share the links people can access themselves. ??
NP: Had any problems from the... other problems like from like visits from ?? or
LE: They've come to the hash tag debate but that's like, it's actually normal you know.
They, one time actually, well sometimes they come and ??
but also like a couple a times ??
they asked people about ?? just watch it and take all the notes you want. It doesn’t really matter
we go a few ?? I mean nothing really very like in your face but we had just like a couple of cases where...
there was one case where we were asked to take down an article, we didn’t take it down because it wasn’t even like direct request
nobody actually said: Hello we're the this or that entity and we want you to take down an article.
Somebody like, somebody ?? I think like told somebody who is related to one of our partners you know
go tell them to take down that article. And then we did it, we were like you know, if you have a problem come talk to ??
and then actually it happened with ?? article that somebody hacked into the system and deleted it. they left it in trash so
we just restored it. But I was a little bit nervous at the time because I could see they accessed the site through my account
so I like went and changed all the passwords and I was just like really paranoid but it feels like somebody was just trying to send a message
like oh we could access things if we wanted. But then the article stayed you know, it was fine and was shared like 5000 times
it was basically like you know these cars in Jordan they have, big trucks sometimes they have a sticker on the back that says:
how do you see my driving? but in Arabic the word driving and ?? are the same ??
so basically somebody used that, this writer used that title: How do you see my Jordan/ leadership
and basically it was like a five point assessment of why the king is not has not been a... you know doesn’t have leadership qualities
that was widely shared and think what was interesting was that people, things has definitely changed because people would share them on their face book page
and they would actually express agreement with these articles in a way that is very open in public and so it's not just about writing something
or publishing something. The fact that people share these contents so openly and actively you know this is an interesting indication.
And really to be honest like we haven’t received much... we haven’t received any ??
they don’t have to bother too much
NP: You mentioned that at some point you stopped receiving interesting content and lost some of the energy
that had started with the Arab Spring ??
can you think of another exact moment or a turning point when that started to happen or was it very gradual, so gradual you barely...?
LE: ??, I mean first of all in Jordan it was interesting to know, I mean I consider this like a turning point locally in Jordan
?? were small but they were gaining momentum you know, they were gaining momentum, e gaining momentum until there was this...
they were always happening downtown on Friday but then there's this protest there's this movement.
I mean now ?? people say it was the Islamists , it was this or that
but at that moment there was ??
and it's interesting because they wanted to actually sleep overnight and it was and it was at a new location which is دوار الداخلية
Dakhlyee circle which is a big major intersection in Amman and they wanted to spend the night there
?? but how do you even know??
so then ?? first of all ?? big march or demonstration or whatever ??
it was called نداء وطن which means how can I translate that? like your countries call or something like that you know
and they actually had like billboards in the street and full page adds in the newspaper, I mean this wasn’t something that was spontaneous or ...
they kept claiming that ??
but they kept claiming that this was ?? by private sector entities that media believed in this you know
and ?? I mean it wasn’t independent it was, we are called Jordan Youth Commission who I mean were ??
and we are ?? like is actually was very ?? by the intelligence or controlled by... I mean am saying this but don’t quote me on this
because it's not something that is documented with tangible evidence but it's kind of ?? you know
but in any case what they did was that they were calling for this big thing in Al Hussein Park you know
they wanted to get around 5000 or something you know.
And I feel it was you know that they ?? the protestors are not preventative of what Jordanians want and that you know
the majority of people are behind his majesty the king in the reforms that he wants to introduce
So anyway, I mean I don’t ?? what happened in Friday ??
we're starting Thursday you know security forces wanted to prevent protesters from spending the night there
they cut off electricity from the circle then people started, some people you know thugs or whatever started throwing rocks at the protestors
?? and then people ??
people were planning to go, went on Friday to the protest to دوار لداخلية so then there were two events
there was دوار الداخلية and there was that other thing and basically for at the time you know
one person sent to us this testimony of what happened on دوار الداخلية on Thursday night you know
we published that and then suddenly that post was just like getting all those views ?? personal testimony
then we were there on Friday and there was a lot of media there on Friday who covered this but in the end it's interesting because you had this small
group of people who were throwing rocks at the protestors and the police was just like creating this barrier between the two groups
but the police was not like arresting people who were throwing rocks, they just like the said: we have to be balanced we can’t take sides
literally like I asked this police officer I was there taking photos I was there as a journalist but it just drives you crazy because
I feel like at first this group would be yelling curses at this group and this group would be just chanting slogans or whatever
and then every half hour this group would start like throwing rocks and the police... it’s such a charade it was theatrical. they started running after the people
who were throwing rocks and then telling them you are not supposed to do that oh no. Anyway that went on for hours then it actually started getting pretty tense. Like these people went up to the over pass or just started throwing rocks from up top and there was ?? building they started throwing bricks from the top of the building. I t was terrible. And then a group of people came from that

TAPE 2

LINA: protest from that demonstration?? to the circle and I saw them they came with like these sticks and rocks
and some of them actually with nothing they were just like happy young people draped in the traditional scarf and carrying photos of the king
and things like that. And they came because somebody told them that there's this group of you know, what did they call it?
that this is just a small group that is chanting unacceptable slogans about Jordan or against the king or against you know the country
and then that gave the ?? and the police an excuse to kind of step in a ?? protests more likely with water cannons and I feel like in the media
the next day I was working ?? at the time and=d I was feeding like stories to ?? on the phone ??
and at first you know ?? brief and then first update and then second update and then finally the warp at the end of the day and the wrap at the end of the day
was essentially that it was clashes between pro government and antigovernment groups.
it wasn’t clashes you know, and it was interesting you know at the time to obviously see how sometimes the big news media things need to be simplified
things sometimes need to be labeled they need to be edited down somehow.
??
but so basically there's so much that changed in Jordan in the narrative after that day because all of a sudden you saw this
so first of all at that night after the protests were dispersed and everything, there were some people literally celebrating on Dakhlyye circle
the fact that they were able to cleanse the circle from the traitors you know. that sort of thing and then they made it... unfortunately in Jordan you know
the regime really services by fuelling this narrative of you know ??
so they tried to kind of play on that division you know and make people afraid of each other but really I was there and I'm sure someone actually was there that day and like she was talking about how ??
it was such a mixed group of protestors I mean I don’t think I ever saw that again in Jordan what I really like it was people that I've never seen ??
there were Islamists and liberals, women and men, the older people and the younger people I mean I don’t want to exaggerate there was like a couple of thousand people but it was significant you know and for us ?? you know at the time we published, we had like photos you know that we published ,videos that we published and then testimonials, it was just simple testimonials. people were there who said this is what happened to me you know
and they are young people and they are not part of political parties and they are, they were there because they believed in something you know
so we published a lot of that content and then we actually started receiving a lot of, at that point suddenly we started getting these commenter’s who were very
it was terrible comments it was hate comments it was like very, some people said ?? 24 movement and then but sometimes some comments were very like
for example anti Palestinian or like we had, there was one young woman writer who wrote a lot for ?? she started getting attacked personally you know
terrible nasty comments ?? somebody would tell me like you have to delete this comment cause we didn’t have ?? so things, comments would appear
and then if people ?? we can review and delete. and again I don’t want to exaggerate but there was a bit of that like in that moment
you would drive in Jordan and there were like ?? flags suddenly like flags everywhere people ?? flags at traffic lights you know flags ??
like suddenly people feeling they should express ?? nationalism you know.
and again people ?? oh somebody wanted to ?? Jordan or you know but after that we still had a lot of like really interesting content coming in
I think through April you know May we had... through the summer ?? summer what was happening in the region, Syria started in March
but it was very clear what was happening in Syria early on. But Libya was so messy that summer, you know there was the ?? and like the NATO ??
and then ?? so just that summer it was you know ?? oh wait but also you know oh wait what is this Arab spring and what’s happening?
it's not as romantic as you know we thought it is at the beginning
but that was very gradual so yeah I would say that there wasn’t a very exact moment but in Jordan no police or after that march 25th thing
protests did start to kind of wind down a little bit you know. July 15th there was a protest it wasn’t even a big protest but like media were attacked
and ?? moments but then it was also gradual then there was Syria and Syria like completely divided opposition in Jordan cause you had like
the classical leftist and anti-imperialist’s who were like very much pro the regime in Jordan in Syria and then but also people were pro revolution but that
created like it was a very like you know ?? fiction it’s just very it's not like just a typical disagreement in opinion
you know it was very fundamental so the yeah it was gradual. It was gradual but then also you know you just kind of start seeing how there was this general sentiment that things will change in Jordan ?? circles and circles and then also people didn't know what they want anymore
like there was so much instability Egypt's elections you know ?? what happened and then the Islamists came and then you know there was all that unrest in Egypt and then so you know I think all of these things played a role
NP: just to... okay ?? to what got you interested in... what got you into blogging?
LE: I always wanted to be a journalist when I was young and I don't know why I just always did and then.. but I also like I was
I came from a family like very... family of nerds you know you know we were very kind of I don’t know A students and science oriented that sort of thing
so ?? but generally you know like this notion of studying journalism was not very you know encouraged let’s just say
but also I liked math and I liked physics and I liked... so I was also ?? I wanted to be a journalist but like ?? it was like kind of confusing so I went into electrical engineering as an underground. And I went to electrical engineering because I loved math but I like early on realized like what am I doing I don’t want to do this
but I also like didn’t... so what I did was at university, at the university of Jordan... the university of Jordan was you know ??
but it was an interesting environment like you learn so much in Jordan and socially politically kind of you know very... very eye opening very interesting
so I joined the press and media club on campus during my first year and then I could see hoe like the ?? of student affairs whatever this like entity that was in charge of student clubs you know, they just interfere with everything there like ?? secure mentality probably ??
run by like people from the intelligence were probably deposited there like in different positions
and so you know ?? approve everyone they won’t let you get anyone from outside the campus you wanted to publish things you need to approve things
you know there was one student newspaper ?? because the editor in chief and the managing editor were like employees one was the dean of students and one was just an employee at the that department and so I worked with that newspaper for a couple of years and it was fine like we used to publish normal content but
then one time I wrote an up and about just about something that happened on campus like how they ?? campaign inside the university supermarket and they
were letting students taste different... it was outrageous to be honest I just ... I wrote this column and just before it went to print the dean decided
that this article can’t be published. and that was my first experience of censorship like personally and it was just, I was outraged I mean it was ridiculous
?? I even went to the... and there was a lunch and the president was there and I went to the president and I complained and I told him what happened
and then the dean was like oh but this article was very... would damage the university's reputation it's just a classical kind of censorship mentality
but anyway, the I found a student magazine that was independent like private ?? published off campus called on campus magazine
and I worked at on campus magazine for two or three years and it was fun and it was great but it was still you know kind of limited in
because you know you could produce like a feature or an interview you were limited in space and limited in the scope of topics they're interested in, that sort of thing.
and that's when I discovered blogging I was still at university and I was part of... I was a member on this website called Taking It Global
and it was a really nice kind of international community website platform for people from different places but they had a blog section in their website
I remember they sent me I think it was my twenty second birthday they sent like an Ecard but you know and they said why don’t you blog about it
something like that you know, and that's when I started like that’s when I wrote my first blog post it was very personal and then somebody from Jordan saw that and he said oh by the way ?? Jordan planet or you should start a blog ?? and then I saw Jordan planet and I think it only had like 20 members
I think I was member 21 or something. So I started a blog Natasha Times which is a Jordanian journalist and blogger and I think she had a blog at the time
but I ?? I sent her an email and she like encouraged me to blog and I started my blog and it was great because you know I could write whatever I wanted
whenever I wanted and I took pretty seriously it was very nice and I got to meet like this community of bloggers who were very different and very interesting people. And that's how I started and so I worked... I didn’t work in engineering ?? when I graduated I got a job... I was working part time my last semester at university with Zain the telecommunication company but like we had a youth department and they were doing projects in universities so I was working there
and I thought... and then they offered me a fulltime job when I graduated and I thought that was perfect transition out of engineering
so was slightly related to engineering but not very much. I worked there for one year and I was working as a freelancer with Jo magazine in Jordan
at like the same time then I quit Zain and I was working fulltime with Jo and applied for the masters and I went and did the masters and that was that.
NP: what sort of things did you use to blog about?
LE: I mean different things. I mean there was... sometimes it was just kind of an observation, sometimes it was... I wrote a few things about like political issues on campus like student council elections and the Islamists on campus or you know things like that. But also some things related to women's issues and some things related to media freedoms and I mean it was kind of relevant. Some things related just to the city you know, Amman kind of urban cultural issues
so it was a mix of things. what's interesting was at the beginning nobody I knew, knew my blog so I kind of had space which was nice
to be honest I admit that when my parents discovered my blog I became a bit self conscious and then when more people I knew you know kind of
family and like that started reading my blog I just became less personal on the blog so I just I think and a lot of people told me that
you know first couple of years there's a very like... there's more personal like more of me personally in my blog like ?? and observations and things
but then it gradually started to become less personal. I mean I was writing about things that I was interested in but it last person and I think I mean this goes without saying but there's a lot of self censorship that comes from just kind of family you know and society so
I remember I wrote something once where I was criticizing an article on ?? this website and the way they were talking about they did what they called an investigation about gays in Jordan but it was horrible you know homophobic terrible peace by like all standards you know
by like any standards even like any journalistic standards ?? of that and you know my dad was kind of like you have to be careful what topics you write about
you don’t want to be misunderstood you know. just sometimes I mean things have changed so much obviously over the past few years but I feel like
I feel like it's interesting that I... when I started blogging I thought I would always I mean never stop blogging but then by 2009 I just stopped you know
so I did for like 4 years.
NP: and the reason you stopped was to do this ??
LE: well a number of things to be honest first of all on a very ?? level it has to do with time you know, like by the time I went to grad school
I was just like I maybe I wrote 2 or 3 posts from work and then I just stopped partly it was time
partly ?? so you know I think like when ?? school and started wanting to be a better journalist I was just like things weren’t as spontaneous anymore
I wasn’t this comfortable writing a post quickly and publishing it I just became like too much of a perfectionist
so that was, that made it harder to blog cause then it would take too much time and then also partly because there were so many things I wanted to
write about that I just kind of not sure can publically in my name write about and things, they're not political ideas so social ideas they are things
they're just very kind of personal sometimes I don’t know. I mean I don’t have to write about these things there were so many other things I would write about but just the fact that I... there are things I feel like writing about but I'm not. you know just makes me feel like you know what I not enough
?? but recently like in the past couple of ?? I just felt like most of my energy ?? anyway
so yes it was a mix I don’t know what it is now but you know
one more reason that made me not want to blog anymore is that to me like writing is a process you know especially when you're like I'm 31 now but
like in my early twenties when I started blogging it was just me discovering you know my city and what I thought and society around me
it was just it was a very interesting kind of process of growing and exploring and the problem is when you write something you know
people don’t receive it as a process they look at it as just an end product sometimes you're also like really held to things you've published online
and I think this is like something we have all come to realize which is that internet is infinite memory and sometimes a little bit of like
kind of holding back is not a bad thing you know because your thought kind of evolve and change so
NP: can I ask how you evaluate the experience of ?? I mean what do you think about the impact it's making or...
LE: I do. I mean I personally like sometimes ?? I sit here and I just like look at how far we have come and I think it’s just so exciting
you know and especially like also now you know we've you know our team has grown to like 15, 16 people you know
it’s, you know we have been able to hire you know smart young journalists you know
and I just feel like it’s so exciting to me to see that they you know are happy working here and feel that they can do stories they can’t do anywhere else
NP: scared?
LE: YEAH
NP: ?? jet
LE: ??. so you know it’s just exciting to see that they like sometimes they say things like they like here in Jordan they don’t know where else they could
work where they can actually work on these stories or you know ?? ideas ?? so in that sense I feel like we're onto something it's exciting
sometimes the thing is I ?? moment like in 2011 it was real it wasn’t imagined or we didn’t exaggerate it was real and there was really like something amazing going on and I don’t want to exaggerate ?? like we didn’t have an impact on a wider scale or anything
but for a lot of people it really meant something and I see a lot of people today they're like we want the hash tag debates back and like we want 2011 back
you know it's just a... sometimes you can’t recreate something when like all the circumstances are different so it was like...
so on one hand yes I feel like we've built a community and there's like you know there are a lot of comments that people send sometimes that mean a lot to me
you know for example you know even though it's we're not big and we don’t have massive hits and we don’t reach a big audience
it's a small audience still but at least there's a space where people feel like ?? like very independent honest and where like a lot of issues related you know
you know quite often to women or freedom of expression or just I don’t know things like that you know
it's a space where we talk about these issues so I mean we still need to do much more, you know I feel sometimes I'm kind of I want to say 7 years
I feel like 7 years is a long time and I feel like a lot should have grown faster and sooner maybe you know
but it was very organic you know it was very gradual very organic and you know it was, it started as this kind of small citizen media platform and now
you know now we actually say the word online magazine we are an independent online magazine that just tackles ??
and more engaged and different intellectual audience.
NP: I did have a look at the ?? website
LE: I'm going to show you we've been having ?? design come out on Sunday?? very self conscious about this I have to tell you something
on one hand I think it's very important to be self critical because it's important. Sometimes I feel we're too self critical I kind of go back and forth
but I think airing on the side of two self critical is better, better than... so the site is going to look like. just like very subtle ??
it's a work in progress so there's going to be more changes coming up but you know we're redesigning to give our content more shelf live and to kind of
make it more user friendly and help people navigate things but pixel is ?? sorry ?? sorry I need to tell the guy
but for example oh no actually that's on the new site. yeah sorry go ahead you were saying
NP: that looks very... looks amazing but I was going to say what I thought was really interesting that it's all in Arabic
or most of it
LE: most of it is in Arabic, actually well actually you're going to look on the new site for now it's actually going to be even more like in Arabic
only because like the mixing of Arabic and English was just design wise very challenging but we're, but we still want to have English content
and I think it's important for us to have like this bilingual content so we're going to work on like having an English tag where you can actually
just go and access all of the English content in a way that's like easier to navigate and explore
It’s interesting because I feel like this is this question has so much to do with you know we've always, we're always asking ourselves like who our audience is and
we are trying to achieve all kind of impact. we are trying to achieve, when we started we started in English but that was like ?? for a short period of time
because we quickly like realized that we have to be bilingual and then for a long time actually until 2010 we had more English content than Arabic
and 2011 was a turning point when there was way more Arabic content than English. And then it just became like predominantly Arabic
and a little bit of English. things like the photo essays though, we're going to have ?? our photography blog it and with pixel it's easier to cause it's like photo essays, photo stories that this one is about migrant government workers in Jordan so it's easier to do it like bilingual you know
but not everything, we don’t have the capacity yet to do everything in both languages but yeah I think the key thing for us was to reach
to reach an Arabic speaking audience you know to have more impact in that area because that's where really there's so much is lacking and so much can be done and introduced.
Np: when in 2011 when we had this explosion of Arabic content was that, people, new people?
LE: yeah. It was a mix it was....
NP: or people who were blogging in English deciding to switch to Arabic
LE: oh no, It was both. I know I mean we know a lot of people who used to write in English then started switching to Arabic
but no, but also a lot of new people you know so it was you know...
NP: it's interesting because I noticed on my facebook page cause I have a lot of Egyptian friends that in 2011 a lot of people just stopped writing in English
everything in Arabic
LE: but you know what’s interesting? I feel also is just part of a... It's not political but it's also part of there is some kind of a trend
like a lot of us you know we... you know if you spoke good English if you went to a private school you know you consumed a lot of content in English
and so you know it's... it was very common you know even now people would like send emails to each other in English you know
they would send text messages in English or mix Arabic and English
or write Arabic in English you know transliteration but then in the past you know few years I've noticed that more people are writing in Arabic
you know even like the spoken Arabic slang but just and for me personally but also like part of like running this website you know we just in the past
I wouldn’t write emails in Arabic just because you know I lacked that kind of language like it wasn’t something I was used to but then now
it's just the norm so I think that's also part of an important you know hopefully kind of ??
NP: ??
LE: yeah, absolutely ??
Np: yeah sure. I have one more question. so I’m interested to know what sort of change you’re hoping ??
I want to assume actually that you are and I hope that you're hoping to change things in Jordan but do you see a relationship...
do you hope there's a relationship between giving people this platform where they can express themselves and generate sort of ?? change in Jordan?
LE: yes of course. no of course. to be honest I mean like for us you know it's you know we set like as a team of like cofounders our partners in the company there's 6 of us and we would have these like meetings every 6 months or something and you know we would be talking about vision and strategy of what we want to do and kind of review how far we've come. things like that you know assessment of our work and I remember like one time it was 2 years ago I think
yeah I remember when we met and we were just talking about ?? to us and where what would we hope to achieve and that sort of thing
and we were like throwing around a lot of different ideas and trying to articulate things and you know... but then I think just one of us really spoke for all of us
and kind of summed it up is that we really want to I mean of course there is a... there isn’t some sort of idealistic drive behind this which is that we want
we want to make things better you know. we want to change things for the better and by that you know I'm not saying that we as ??
are going to do that but we are going to contribute you know in a small way and hopefully there's going to be a lot of other like different things
and there are a lot of other different things and for now there are like small maybe but like I ask myself all the time like sometimes you know maybe
maybe it's just kind of a naive early twenties sort of mentality to just kind of be oh I'm going to change things but at the same time I mean I look at
like how do societies change you know? they you know I like read I think it was ?? Johnson who said at ?? and you read about women in Network in the 50s
and it was like you know you could really relate

TAPE 3

and this, there's so many kind of similarities in how people thought and kind of again some kind of maybe not the 50s maybe before but like patriarchy or ?? one example social issues but that's not the main thing but like just freedoms you know kind of awareness in self realization you know and that sort of thing
I mean there's so many other countries and so many other societies you know were in a terrible place and they've managed to, they've , managed to completely
like move somewhere else. So you know I think it's possible although sometimes you know you just start to think that we're stuck in a bubble maybe it's a few ??
maybe nothing's going to change in our life times and maybe it really is better to kind of move somewhere else but I still think that like especially here in Amman you know ?? very refreshed like that's what I meant by like this community that is around us. It's not just ?? here there's also like the you know there's all the other independent kind of cutler art spaces and we actually are starting to collaborate like to sit together and talk and explore ways that we can do things together and I feel like you know the more people are doing that you know you start to you know change something.
sorry that was a very incoherent answer but I just...
NP: no, no, I mean ?? ask a follow up question. So do you see yourself as part of a movement or a... you mentioned all these ?? initiatives so
do you think ?? like a...
LE: I think it's too early to call it a movement you know. But it's what I hope would become a movement you know. I just... and again you know I just
I think really like having a... having a professional independent... having professional independent content that respects people's intelligence that you know pushes the boundaries that talks about things that that ?? talking about. Hopefully we will kind of contribute to you know putting more of this in the public sphere
giving people you know... hopefully getting people to like think about things differently or actually not just think about things differently sometimes you want meaning to... sometimes people need to see that like when I have like we wrote down like a list of like what is good content you know. What is the kind of content we try to produce and that's like our kind of mini... I don’t want to say ?? but just like little kind of guidelines. And one of them is that you know sometimes there are these things that are on people's minds but that they need to see in print. They need to see in front of them and so sometimes you know it's just so... it's kind of reassuring when somebody says it out loud so you know we do a lot of media criticism which I acknowledge as dangerous because if we just keep kind of acting like a media watchdog then we really can’t afford to make any mistakes. But yeah I don’t know it's a learning process it's interesting.
I think on a personal level you know I just like ?? has been... I love the team I really, really, really love them. I mean they're just... they're not all the same you know. They're not all... they don’t all think the same but they... but there's just something about them where you know I feel like I get a lot of energy out of them. you know
NP: is there a thing I didn’t ask you about that you think is important?
LE: I don’t know ?? but I think you know it's interesting ?? I would think like for example I've become much more... I think it's part of growing up and you know it's just naturally you kind of become more cynical about certain things or more critical or more... some people I know would tell me sometimes ??
just because like we’re very critical about certain things you know politically and how things operate and things that happen in Jordan.
and sometimes again, sometimes you see very clearly where certain things are pointless definitely pointless to engage in and other things you know you try to kind of invest your energy, things where you hope to have some impact and so it's interesting to me where I sometimes I come off as like maybe cynical or negative in certain situations here but then I was just in the US for three weeks visiting my sisters and some friends and I went to this ?? my classmates and there I come off as like the idealist enthusiastic very positive person who actually thinks that you know there's something worth staying for in this country
so because I mean a lot of my friends you know they’re like really smart and but they just like some of them for example are doctors who went to do their medical ?? in the US and chose to just not come back to Jordan. So they just want to stay there others you know are you know, other people who were able to get jobs elsewhere are just like you know; what's keeping you in Amman? One of my friends is doing PHD like in Boston she’s brilliant, she's really smart she's a scientist you know at heart and like I know that it's very difficult for her to come back because what would she do? you know
So yeah sometimes we're torn but... something weird is going on
NP: yeah, Thank you so much