Interview with Omaima Abu-Bakr

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Interview with Omaima Abu-Bakr
2014
TAPE 1
Omaima Abubakr: Okay, Lets say the name, Omaima Abubakr, I was born in
Alexandria, city of Aexandria to parents, you know, I am an only child, I have one
younger brother, 3 years younger, so very small typical, middle class Egyptian family
of the 60s, when you were not supposed to have a big family, 2 or 3 children are the
most, anyway, but I was not raised in Alexandria at the time, My father is a
mechanical engineer and he was working in a company in Alexandria, so my parents
were living there in the city. But 2 or 3 years later my father got a job in Cairo, so
they moved to Cairo, and my younger brother was born in Cairo in an apartment
down town actually, next to Fouad Street. Very downtown Cairo and that's where
my brother and I we were raised, and so, I'm a city girl through and through I have
never left Cairo until I got married after I graduated from Cairo University, the
English department, I graduated in 78, I got married right after graduation and my
husband was doing his PhD in the US, so I got married and I travelled to the US,
stayed for 15 years there, and I had my two boys there, because I joined graduate
school in the US, after my BA in English Literature in Cairo University. So the first part
of my life was all very busy and it was in the US, I got married I had my two boys
there, I had my Masters degree from North Carolina State University, and I had my
PhD from the University of California, Berkeley. So I did everything in the first 15
years and then we came back to Cairo, I came back to my job in the English
department in Cairo University as a professor, you know I took the usual root of
promotion until I became a full professor, in my home department, the English
department in Cairo University. But before marriage I was raised in Cairo all
throughout my life, and the last thing is about my mother, because I mentioned that
my father is an engineer, Okay, my mother was a teacher, an English teacher, she
worked as an English teacher in a school, a school teacher, that's it, that's the basic
broad lines of my family background, yeah.
Nicola Pratt: do you mind saying the sate you were born?
OA: 1957. Yes, sure.
NP: I am sorry if I missed that the first time.
OA: 1957, coz that's important later on.
NP: Okay, do you, what is your first memories of national events or political events,
you remember from your childhood?
OA: sure, sure, my earliest memory is 1967, right. I was ten years of age, you know
the war and „ the 1967 war, at that time when you used to turn off the lights, it was
very primitive at the time every night for a few months, and hear the warning sirens,
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that was in the 60s right. So every night there will be sirens and threats of death and
then we had to turn of the lights every single night for few months, paint the glasses
in blue and put tape and those things were done in the 60. However, the
atmosphere of war, but I don't remember any bombs in downtown Cairo, there
weren't, it was all the Suaize Canal Area really, right, but we were a country at war,
so this is my early memory of war. And then of course the memory of Nassir's what
is it in English? Abdication...
NP: resignation.
OA: resignation, yeah, you abdicate the thrown, yeah. And then Nassir's resignation,
that night. Actually, I was just talking about this the other day when we were at
Huda's and I was saying I remember this very well. You know, 10 years I don't
understand the politics very well, but when you are 10 years of age and you look to
you parents and you just remember their reaction to political events, and this is how
you build that, so I remember that day, sitting on the sofa watching TV, watching
Abdel Nassir resign and I remember my mother breaking down in tears crying, and
my father was getting very, very upset, he was a heavy smoker, he gets up, he
fetches his cigarettes, and starts yelling, this is not right, this is not right, he is the
best man in the world. Talking about Nassir, now my parents were not politicized at
all, never, not part of political parties or political orientations, just my father was, as I
said, an engineer and a school teacher, so just regular Egyptian citizens, and they
were not Nasserites in the ideological sense, or nationalists but they were lovers and
supporters of Nassir. Like, you know the rest. So I remember that day that there is a
catastrophe, a national catastrophe, my mother is crying, that is my memory of that
day, and my father saying, he is the best, about Nassir, he can't leave us now, he has
been wronged, this is not his fault, something like that, this is not right and the
country is going to pieces. So this is my earliest 10 years. Anything else?
NP: When you were in university, did you participate on any groups or societies or
activities?
OA: No, when I was an undergraduate, again, this... I was completely un politicized,
at all, that was the early part of Sadat era, I think, something like that, so my
undergraduate, no, wait a second... in the 70s, from 74 until 78. No, I wasn't
politicized at all, I remember even in the 3rd year, the January 18th and 19th events
took place at that time. And I also was not into that. My engagement perhaps with
political issues, the first time I began seriously to look at political issues, is during
Sadat, was when I was in the US, when I got married, early 80s, so from... and the
camp David accords, that's when I first began to look into and think about the
political issues, Egypt and Israel and the peace accord and the US.
NP: the... during this period, were you aware of students being politically active on
campus, different orientations?
OA: No, I wasn't aware of that, no. Because I think in the 70s it was a time of yes, we
would hear about problems of the Muslim Brotherhood, but not in the faculty of
arts, it was more in the faculty of medicine, faculty of engineering, more hot beds for
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that kind of body. It was in the beginning right, the activities of the Islamists, this is in
the beginning when male students started to have beards in the public, and that was
in the beginning, very slight and only in other faculties, not in the faculty of arts.
NP: How did you find living in America?
OA: yeah,. There was a little element of a cultural shock but not much, not much.
Because when I went there, I got immediately, after one semester, 3 or 4 months, I
immediately registered in the MA program in North Carolina State University, and I
got so busy with that, so I was plunged immediately in work and in study, so think I
didn't have free time to reflect on like my life here is so different from my life in
Cairo, just work, work, and try to survive, and graduate school is very, very tough. So,
the big thing was to try and survive, to get a GPA that doesn't plunge beyond, you
know how it is, it was tough professionally and not socially or culturally.
NP: Why did you decide to come back to Cairo?
OA: Yes, because being in the US was for a particular purpose, I mean, I never had in
mind that I wanted to immigrate or... it was for a purpose of getting a good graduate
education, getting an MA and a PhD. And I never officially resigned from Cairo
University, I was always applying for leaves to study to get there and to come back. I
never, it was taken for granted that this is my life here I am going to come back and
continue, but I want t have a good education, a good graduate education and have a
PhD degree form somewhere. So I never thought differently, so once I was done, I
came back, I went back to the US to live for another 2 or 3 years and work there
after my PhD, because my husband was thinking, why not? Why don't we continue
to live in the US? We have been living there for 12 years, we had our kids there, so
we might as well continue living and raise our kids as American citizens and all of
that. So there was a period where he was considering that option. But I didn't want
to live in the US, I wanted to come back.
NP: so when you came back did you find Egypt changed?
OA: let me remember, a very good question, I'm trying to remember the 80, No, not
much, I mean the change came after, in the 90s and the 2000s. I didn't feel like it, or
at least I don't remember now, I don't have a vivid or stark memory of something
that surprised me as something has changed, I don't remember that.
NP: So, how did you become involve d in the Woman and Memory Forum?
OA: Yes, that was at the end of the 90s, you know, so I was after 5 or 6 years of
coming back from the US in the early 90s, and we settled and we found an
apartment and we put the children to school. And that's it; we are going to settle
here, so that was in the end of the 90s. in 97, 98 and I went back to the English
department to teach English literature and a little bit of comparative literature, and I
was approached by Hudda El Sadda, saying that you know, we need to form some
sort, I wasn't clear from the very beginning that we are going to have an NGO or a
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big research center, that development came as we went along, but the first thing
was an approach from Hudda El Sadda, saying, we are forming a study circle to study
history and gender, Arab history, Islamic history, Tradition. And I got interested in
that, because already my PhD was about Sufism, it was about comparative between
Sufism and Christian pessimism so it was a cross between literature and the history
of tradition. And I was really getting interested in tradition from a literary and a
critical point of view not necessary gender or politics at that time, but when Huda
offered that kind of new activity which was sort of, not academic, but a study activity
on the side, that really peaked my interested, and I said, yes, I would like to spend
sometime other than teaching pure English literature, you know 19 century poetry,
romantic and neoclassical poetry and all of that, she is a professional. I would like to
have this opportunity where we can read our tradition in Arabic, you know, just read
Arabic history, Arabic tradition and so on and so forth. So that was the initial call, so I
began to get into that, issues of gender and women, I wasn't sensitized before
Women and Memory. So I don't know how, or what the history of Women and
Memory but we went through phases in terms of logistics, It was really at the
beginning a study circle of 4 or 5 women, Hala Kamal, Sumaya Ramadan, Iman
Babers, and Huda Lutfi from AUC, just a study circle looking at history and we were a
part of another NGO at the time, just a project on the side, but we began as
interested at history from a gender sensitive perspective. And each one of us was
interested in a period of history, I was interested in the pre modern period, the
middle ages, Hudda was more in the modern, 20th century, I think Sumaya Ramadan
was interested in the 19th century, at the time of the French invasion and so on. So
we began with looking at women in different periods of history, yeah, that's how we
began.
NP: So, how did you become interested in gender and Islamic texts?
OA: so around that time, I joined this as a researcher and I wasn't sensitized and I
wasn't into feminism and gender issues, I was doing this as a researcher interested in
pre-modern Islamic history and Sufism. But then when I began to read the tradition,
particular modern Arab scholars writing on Sufi women, because when I joined I said
I would like to research Sufi women. So reading modern Arab scholars writing about
Sufi women in history, it was so patriarchal, it was wrong, I felt there was something
wrong even in the analysis of history, patriarchal, very biased to a male view, to a
male interpretation, very condescending even of women Sufi, those are these
moderns, and when I went to the pre-modern, the classical scholars as well, the
classical Islamic historians writing on women, also it was a mixed bag, they would
praise pious women, you know the history of hagiography, right? So they would
praise pious women, but there was always something condescending about these
women, it was biased, and male view, so I began to be aware of that. And then I got
interested in theology, got interested not just in the history of Sufi women, but
interested also in gender issues in Islam. Because I found myself bothered by some
of things I read, the classical and that began to alert me to contemporary culture,
popular culture, you know watching a TV program, being in a social gathering, in the
university, something happened inside you know, that began to sensitized me to
gender issue, you start noticing things you haven't noticed before about gender
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context in society, cultural attitudes, culture attitudes that use religious discourses
to justify. I am religious as the next girl you know, like any Egyptian girl, you know,
and I didn't like what I was getting from the culture, from society and from what I
was reading and I said, no, this can't be right? This can't be the Islam that we like and
practice and believed in since we were born, that kind of discourse, the injustice, the
bias, no, no, does really God want us to be like this? Really, God wants it that way? I
never thought about it before, so this is the time where I start engaging with it
intellectually, so that's when I got into the idea of gender in Islam, and gender in
Islamic discourses, or you know, I said, I want to get to the bottom of this. My
instinct, not instinct but my religious, emotional upbringing, tells me one thing but
what I am receiving is something I don't like form the culture, society and the
literature that I am reading. So this is the time when I said, I want to read for myself,
I want to understand for my self. What does the Quran say what does the Prophet
say may peace be upon him said, what is it exactly? So I started to read into gender
and feminists and feminist theory sort of mixing the two.
NP: do you feel similar discomfort with some feminist theories, feminist discourses
in regards to religion?
OA: Not discomfort because I was really reading them as theories, you know, they
are secular feminist theories, so that was okay, I was learning about all these
different dimension or different schools of feminism, so I didn't feel discomfort, I
was just looking to whatever would be relevant or would help me, would suite me,
so I was approaching them as theories, as things to learn about. Well, I may have...
the discomfort comes from my own context, discomfort comes, not discomfort but
confusion and conflicted, when I began as a member with Woman and Memory
Forum through the years and I would mix with circles who for a lack of a better
words, secular feminist Egyptians for instance, not discomfort, it is too strong of a
word, not even tension or conflict, again, these are strong words for what I felt, but
what I felt is, how do I find a place for myself? They have a right to do what they do
and just like the Muslim Sisters have the rights to believe in what they do, how do I
find for myself a place where I can be not that and not that... and maintain good
relations, because I didn't want t isolate myself, I mean, to maintain good relations
with Egyptian secular feminists, and to find the commonality, okay, maybe they are
not interested... and this is of course their right. Maybe they are not interested in
religious issues or in religious justifications of gender equality as I am interested in
that. Which is completely their right of course. But how do we work to get, the
common thing is that we are all interested in improving the quality of life of Egyptian
women, so how do we focus on what is common. And I will have a religious
approach and they would have a UN approach and so on, so as time went on I was
thinking about these things.
NP: Do you feel that you were successful in finding a place for you self within these
different orientation or building bridges and finding common grounds?
OA: Yeah, I think so, I think so, because thank God, I think, I hope I am not wrong, I
was able to project truly what I believe, the fact that I am interested in the religious
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issues will not prevent me from being with you guys in campaigns for women, I am
not going to isolate myself and I am not going to make my self superior or
judgmental, so I think thank God I projected that kind of attitude and build that
trust, because at the very beginning, and in the beginning of the Veil movement in
the 80s when it was... so at the beginning I could see that trust was difficult on the
part of the secular feminists or, is she for real? Or is she conservative? But judging
from having good personal relations with all the activists now, all the women
activists working now, I have good personal relations so I think it worked thank God,
I think.
NP: did you think when the memory forum played an important role in enabling you
to find this space for yourself?
OA: Yes, definitely, definitely, because if I hadn't joined, or haven't part of the WMF,
I would continue to be an academic or a researcher, publishing papers and teaching,
and not playing a part of the wider circle of activism or to know other feminists so
definitely it had allowed me for that and it has allowed, to go back to your question,
to find that space, yes, because Women and Memory Forum is a welcoming inclusive
space, so we maybe different I don't know on a personal level, though we don't
reflect much on that, it is a safe inclusive place.
NP: do you think that you have played a role in paving the way for other younger
women who are now active around women's rights issues and who are also veiled?
OA: I don't know about playing a role, but being in the university, not just being in
WMF and being involved with the projects and for the last 5 or 6 years we have been
accommodating people from the younger generation, I don't know if you can see,
whether from the staff in the library projects or in what ever, but in WMF and the
university, the fact... and you know being a professor at the university or an
academician you are always engaging with the young. Right, the young generation,
so I just want to say that, I meet girls from the younger generation and you know 20s
up to even early 30s. I don't know if I have an effect on them, but they come to me
and they said that, this kind of orientation, this kind of middle space speaks to us
very much, this is what I am looking for, this is what I want, you know, younger girls
who are veiled, you know, and religious in a very normal kind of way, but they have a
budding, I call it a bedding feminine conscience, where she feels that there are
something wrong with a lot of the biases in the culture, something wrong with the
religious discourses this time that we got to justify, blah, blah, blah... and they say,
yeah, that is the kind of thing that we are looking for, this is the kind of space that
speaks to me, and this is very rewarding to me, because if you feel that you are not
this isolated researcher writing about Islamic feminism, but it is the relationship to
the ground, it is grounded, it is rooted. So it effects, yeah. So I know, not many, its
not a movement, but I know a lot of young students and young graduate students,
young activists in the field also, were very interested in these issues, in this kind of
space and orientations. Yeah.
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NP: could I just ask you to define or explain a bit more, what you mean by religious
in a normal way?
OA: Yeah, yeah, you know, someone like used this recently and I found it a good way
to use... taking Islam for granted. You know, somebody recently I was reading to
someone and she used that phrase, to mean that you have a normal upbringing
where of course you pray 5 times a day, of course when Ramadan comes you fast.
TAPE 2
OA:... of course you don't drink, of course you don't eat pork. This is the normal kind
of way, but you enjoy going to the movies, you enjoy seeing... enjoy music, you mix
with people, you mix with boys, with men, you shake hands, you know, that kind of
thing. But normal in a sense that a practicing Muslim in everyday life. Yeah.
NP: and that would be contrasted with more strict practices of Islam and also more
secular?
OA: that is a good question... Yeah.
NP: Is that in the middle to a spectrum?
OA: contrasted to what? That is a good way of putting it. It would be contrasted, you
know, I'll take the lead from your question, it will be contrasted to three kinds of
attitudes towards religion. To be contrasted to the extreme secular perhaps attitude,
but then I am not sure, when I say secular, I don't want to be judgmental, I don't use
it in judgmental way, right. So, secular, none practicing, I am just trying to find a way
not to judge people in what they do in their private life, whether they practice or
not, it is not my business. Whether they drink beer or wine in their social gatherings,
again it is not my business. So non practicing, I don't know, whatever you want to
call it, so to be contrasted to that kind of attitude or life style, lets put it that way.
But also be contrasted to two other attitudes towards religion, one I would call the
ideological political Islamist attitude, which is to be what would the Muslim
Brotherhood would present, right. Ideologizing religion, political Islam kind of
attitude. The Muslim Brotherhood track. And then the Salafi track, the Wahabi track,
which is the, which is none political but is literal application of Islam and an
extremist. The Niqab, the non mixing with, no gender mixing, very literal
interpretation of Islam. Music is haram, singing is haram, you know that whole thing,
at one point they were saying that TV is haram. So I guess that it would be
contrasted to these three things there.
NP: and is it challenging to occupy the space that you occupy, the type of position
you take in light of the increasing politicization of Islam? But within Egypt
internationally in terms of post 9/11?
OA: I am sorry, can you repeat the first part of the question?
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NP: is it challenging for you to take the position that you take?
OA: Now, or?
NP: well, in general, have like, well, I dot want to miss characterize your position, but
lets say it's a position, is sort of a middle space...
OA: Sort of unclear?
NP: Not not clear, but like you are taking a middle space, and you are taking it
publically, I mean, it is not just like an ordinary Egyptian being religious normally? I
mean, you are taking a position in your public right...
OA: as a woman and a researcher and an academic.
NP: and is that difficult given how political Islam and how Islam is politicized?
OA: and how challenging, of course, yeah. It is challenging because you have to
explain yourself all the time. And you have to make it clear to yourself as well as to
others, because we are human beings, we get confused too, I get confused about
myself too, right? So your constantly in your mind explain it to yourself and to
others, where you are from these things. Particularly before the revolutions, or
before and after 9/11, where you have to say I am an Islamic but I am not an
Islamists, you know, so you want to be like I am not a Muslim Brotherhood, and I am
not into application of Sharia or the Islamic State, you know, remember the
discourse on establishing an Islamic state even before the Egyptian revolution, right?
So I am not into that kind of discourse, I am not sure what is an Islamist state or
what can we do with an Islamic state, I am not into that. But I am an Islamic thinker,
you know, interested in actual Islam and Islamic philosophy, in Sufism, in Islamic
knowledge, I am interested in that as a researcher. So does that make me... so you
constantly have to clarify and explain your political position and your cultural
position on... so challenging in that kind of way, yeah.
NP: is that still possible in light of the polarization that, in Egypt?
OA: No, there was always challenging, even, I remember during the... still challenging
and still very difficult, I mean, it is getting more and more difficult, because now its
politics, its not just where you are in terms of religion or intellectually, but also
politically. It's become also difficult.
NP: apart from your writings and research, are there any other ways in which you
are active?
OA: No, its always through my research and disseminating it, and through WMF
activities, like the gender workshops, like seminars, like lectures, like approaching
the young, so its been through that.
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NP: Can I ask about your participation about the 25th January?
OA: Okay, sure.
NP: Did you join these demonstrations on the 25th January?
OA: Not on the 25th, not on the 28th, but afterwards, during the 18 days of Tahrir, the
sit in. But I didn't go as often as I wanted to. Because I live in Heliopolis, I live in Masr
El Jdeedah, which is very far from Tahrir, and you have, so its just logistics, you have
to cross the October bridge, and you couldn't always find a cab to take you across,
the October bridge from Heliopolis and drop you off at Tahrir. And I don't drive, I
have a car, but I have a driver because I don't drive, and he used to be afraid... So, it
was just a matter of finding transportation, to Tahrir and staying until it is sunset and
having to go back, it was scary and it was always dangerous on October bridge. You
never know what's going to happen. So I only went like 3 times in the mornings, I
didn't spend a lot of times as I want it, and I regret that I didn't go more often. Or
stayed very, very late, that was during the 18 days, I went only 3 times.
NP: and did you take your own placards? Did you write your own placards to take to
Tahrir?
OA: No, I would use whatever is there. Afterwards I did, during the year of SKAF, I
went more often, I was bolder, I did my own signs at one point with Huda and then
we went, so, I became bolder that year of SKAF. I went to more demonstrations
during that year and a half.
NP: So some of the fears that you had during the 18 days, you know, the 25th January
revolution, those went away after Mubarak stepped down? When you said you
became bolder I was wondering if you felt like you were bolder in comparison to the
18 days?
OA: Yeah, that's what I felt, so you are asking why you feel that way, more
empowered sort of. Yeah, it grew on me, these are revolutionary times and we
should be more positive and more activists and there is nothing to be afraid of, I will
get a cab I will get whatever, my car parked far... I mean somehow I became bolder
in dealing with going out and being in demonstrations yeah. I felt I should be a prat
of this, yeah.
NP: and did you participate in the 30th of June?
OA: No I didn't. I didn't, yeah.
NP: Is that because, but in this I will...
OA: No, of course, sure. Yeah. Yeah
NP: Why didn't you participate?
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OA: I felt that, okay. I felt this comfort with those demonstrations in particular,
because I felt it was leading at the time, even though three days before July the 3rd, I
felt this is not going to lead to something, to something right procedurely, I felt that
we are at the beginning to the road to chaos, that something chaotic is going to
happen. I was not supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood at all in the revolution. But
I felt that we can oust Mursi procedurly, I was of the people who wanted to... can't
we just wait until we get a parliament, and then maybe we can change the
government, and maybe we can find a procedural way of ousting Mursi. Other than
this, because yeah, I felt that we were breaking the rules, we were breaking the rules
of the game and this is going to open the door to anyone who doesn't like a
president to do demonstrations, I wanted to do it procedurally I guess. I was anti-
Muslim Brotherhood completely. I was is, I cant remember now when, but I was in
demonstrations against Muslim Brotherhood during that year, and I wrote against
them, I didn't vote for them at all. But I wasn't confortable with the Tamarud
movement, or the June 30th. And then July 3rd was, I was really sure I am against this
trajectory, against this track. Yeah, and I am still conflicted until this very moment
about it, yeah.
NP: so did you feel that June 30th was not the next stage of the revolution, or was it
more like it was a wrong strategy for the revolution?
OA: Yes, yes, that's it, I felt it was not right it was a long strategy and I am going to
also use, a very cliche very superficial cliche but I am going to use it, and I am going
to use it, 2 wrongs don't make a right, cliche, the Muslim Brotherhood rule was
wrong, was wrong in the sense that they came with elections, right, no body can
deny that. They were horribly, their rule was horribly made so many political
mistakes and other kinds of mistakes, they were really bad. But 2 bads don't make
a... we can't remove a wrong by another wrong, that's even more serious, so I looked
upon this, I looked at military intervention in July the 3rd and the new role now of the
military as a wrong, that is even bigger than the Muslim Brotherhood, so I didn't see
that this is a solution.
NP: Can I ask how you see the relationship between your... okay, can I ask you, do
you give a label to your position?
OA: Political position or?
NP: I meant intellectual position with regards to gender sensitive reading of Islamic
discourses?
OA: I use the word feminist.
NP: You use that? Okay.
OA: I have no problem with that, feminist, an Egyptian feminist, because I am
interested in women's issues, I want a better life for Egyptian women. I want to right
10


wrongs, when it comes to gender bias or in society. So I am a feminist in that sense,
and as far as my interest in gender issues in Islam and Islamic discourses, I guess I
use the label Islamic feminism, Islamic feminist.
NP: Do you see a relationship between your intellectual activism for Islamic
feminism and your participation in demonstrations that are against political,
particular political regimes?
OA: Yeah, this is very interesting.
NP: do you see them linked or separate interests for you?
OA: No, I see them linked or this is my next project for your book, is my next project,
because I was thinking about it since January revolution really. I been thinking about
that is, these 2 have been going in parallel, my interest in Islamic feminism and
gender issues in Islam, and by being, more and more politicized in my life, as you can
see in my background, I never belonged to any politicized family, and I never
practiced politics in my early life. But it is interesting that both these areas are
growing and going in parallel, but since the January revolution I have been thinking
deeply about that, that is there a relation? And if there is none, then I would like to
craft and I would like to make relation in my mind, the intellectual relation,
commitment or ethics of some sort, just like here on this side, we argue that there is
a certain ethics of justice, ethics of gender justice, this is what we arguing right?
Because Islamic feminism, there are ethics of gender justice that should be part of
Islam? In terms of politics, there should also be ethics of justice, in the public sphere,
in the political sphere, and ethics of anti corruption, and ethics of anti double
standards, standardness or whatever, and ethics of transitional justice, and ethics of
you know, the whole bit. So this is my next project that I want to think more deeply
about these issues, this issue in particular, that the relationship., or there should be
a relationship, if we are talking about ethics and gender, and also politics. And
whether... because I have written earlier, since January revolution, I've written once
in passing, but this is something that I want to expand on, but I have written in
passing, that if you are an Islamic feminist you are anti patriarchy, anti misogyny,
using religion to justify bias, and justify patriarchy, but you should also be anti any
form of injustice, not just gender injustice, but any form of injustice and any form of
tyranny and authoritarianism, that is the word I was looking for, authoritarianism,
whether in the field of gender or the field of politics and public... so this is something
that I will be thinking more about, and try to what's the word in English? Articulate
more.
NP: Just to clarify, was the 25th January revolution the start of a tragictory of
politicization for you?
OA: Yes, it was the landmark, not... yeah, a turning point, definitely.
NP: So before then, you hadn't been involved for example, with Kefaya or...
11


OA: No I haven't been involved with Kefaya, you know you would follow your news, I
mean in your heart, we were all supportive of these opposition movements, 3 or 4
years before the revolution, the only one thing that I did... how come I dropped that,
I should have mentioned that... before the 35 revolution which was in 2003, 2004,
which is, I officially joined the Wasat party. How come I forgot that?
NP: That is very important?
OA: very significant and I forgot that because I have been so disheartened,
disenchanted with them. Okay, lets tell the story of the Wasat party, yeah, 2003,
2004, Abuelela Madi, who was the president of the Wasat party was in the news and
trying to get official, you know, if you know the history of the Wasat party since the
90s, I think. They have been trying one after, one attempt after the other, to get an
official permit to establish the Wasat party, I was aware of them mid 2000, and I
went to meet him and I went to meet the guys there, and you know, and I actually
made the power of attorney, I don't know how to say that in English, I mean, when
you go to the...you know when you register officially, the power of attorney, for the
Wasat party, so you go an register officially and then you go to Wasat party and you
give a your... I don't know what it is in English.
NP: Registration.
OA: Yeah, yeah, this is how it is done here. So then that's how become a founding
member, so I finally became a founding member of the Wasat party, and then it was
officially right after January revolution, two months, I think in March or April 2011,
by coincidence, their papers were up again at that time, even if the revolution
hadn't, if there weren't a revolution, their papers were up in March 2011, for
another consideration in the courts and of course they were going to be rejected for
the 5th or 5th time they have been trying this. But after the revolution this was the
first time that they were given an official approval right, and they became an official
Wasat party and they had a headquarters and everything. And I went there, I
became a founding member, of an official party. However, after the revolution, I said
okay, this is the time to be really an active member in the Wasat party and I had
planned to be active. Because I haven't been active before, although I was as a
founding member, even before the revolution and I did this, but there was a period, I
lived in Qatar for three years, I got a job in Qatar university, teaching, my mother
was very sick and she passed away and I was depressed, so although I was officially
registered I didn't go there a lot of times to the Wasat party, but you know, I
consider myself a subscriber to what I thought was their policy, or their program, I
read their program and I heard their program and everything. And after the
revolution I continued to be busy with research and commitments and teaching and
every time I go I would say, they would ask me don't you want to be in a committee
of some sort and I said, yes, yes, I want to, but right now I am busy, next tie I will be
n some sort of a committee there, until I noticed that they began to come very close
to the Muslim Brotherhood, and to be identified with the policies and the politics of
the Muslim Brotherhood... particularly, the time that I felt completely enchanted
with them and sort of emotionally divorced from the Wasat party was during the
12


formation of the constitution assembly, the hundred, the constitution assembly, and
when president Mursi issued his constitutional declaration you know, and the Wasat
party whom I joined on account of political and intellectual independence on the
Muslim Brotherhood, I mean, I looked at them as an alternative of an Islamic polity
that is different from the Muslim Brotherhood, that is not ideologically political
Islam, that their program didn't speak about an Islamic state, they didn't speak
about a literal application of Shariaa, the borders and you know, they only talked
about, we are a civilian party with an Islamic frame of reference in terms of an
intellectual frame of reference. You know, we believe in the principles of Shariaa, the
justice, the ethics, the compassion, the overall principles of the Islamic tradition, we
believe that the Islamic tradition is the component of our culture, and this is our
frame of reference, intellectually and culturally. So that kind of discourse appealed
to me, so I thought, this is a good alternative to the Muslim Brotherhood, to the
Salafis and alternative to... you know, I wasn't a Marxist, I wasn't a Nasserite,
politically, so I said maybe this is the typr of political forum that I can belong to right?
And they were all good guys all right, enlightened and all of that. And then at that
time I said, what? They lost their political independence, they are just tagging along
the Muslim Brotherhood, which means to me, that they lost also, if ever had it, I
don't know, their intellectual independence also, it seems that, so I was
disenchanted with them during that time. And I stopped going and I didn't
participate in any other elections, I just stopped going. You know, and as like, I
followed them in the Media getting worst and worst in my eyes, I identified very
much with the politics and the policies of the Muslim Brotherhood, and it was a
disillusioned, I said, these guys! I thought they were different! They are not that
different, although they were arguing that, you know, we are not the Muslim... you
know I would see them on TV or in Media, stopped meeting with them and I stopped
going there. And they were arguing, we still not the Muslim Brotherhood, we are just
supporting the legitimate rule, and theoretically yes, this was the legitimate elected
rule during that year, so theoretically yes, you have a right to support the elected
government, the elected president, but they were arguing for all of the ideas of the
Muslim Brotherhood so passionately, that I felt, they are really not different you
know. So I sent an email to the Wasat party, and said I am resigning, I am not... that
was before the 30th June, earlier in the year I think, earlier in 2013, Yeah. I said I am
resigning and I never got any answer, I went into the site, I knew one particular guy, I
still have his number, but I didn't want o call him, I said I will just do this by email.
You see, again, my lack of political experience, I didn't know what people do when
they want to resign from parties, and you know how this is done, you have to go
there or you call people up, and at that time I wasn't on Facebook, I got on the site
of the Wasat Party...
TAPE 3
OA: and I wanted to see if here is a place where people resign, I didn't know what to
do, I just sent an email, no body answered me, so I just ignored the whole thing,
that's it. That's the story of me and the Wasat Party, yeah.
13


NP: do you have any ideas on why they started to defend the Muslim Brotherhood
policies?
OA: No, you know, its part of politics, they became associated with authority, so you
know, it makes sense that they would support that to continue to be part of that.
But what I was thinking of and this is related to the point that we raised earlier is
okay, this maybe the political smart thing to do, the Wasat party is a small party and
maybe they want to tag along to be bigger to grow to become more influential, you
know, politics, its just sheer politics of course, this is understandable, but the
question on my mind was again, ethical question, is this right to do? It is politically
opportunistic and political opportunism is the right and wrong the ethical... for an
Islamic party you are supposed to be ethical, you are supposed not to be politically
opportunistic and this is why we have been criticizing the Muslim Brotherhood for
very long, they are using religious discourses to justify dirty political games. So the
Wasat is doing it, that was my disillusioned... yeah.
NP: Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think is important and you
want to add?
OA: No, not that I can think of. No.
NP: Thank you!
OA: Sure.
NP: Thank you so...
14

Interview with Omaima Abu-Bakr
2014

TAPE 1

Omaima Abubakr: Okay, Lets say the name, Omaima Abubakr, I was born in Alexandria, city of Aexandria to parents, you know, I am an only child, I have one younger brother, 3 years younger, so very small typical, middle class Egyptian family of the 60s, when you were not supposed to have a big family, 2 or 3 children are the most, anyway, but I was not raised in Alexandria at the time, My father is a mechanical engineer and he was working in a company in Alexandria, so my parents were living there in the city. But 2 or 3 years later my father got a job in Cairo, so they moved to Cairo, and my younger brother was born in Cairo in an apartment down town actually, next to Fouad Street. Very downtown Cairo and that’s where my brother and I we were raised, and so, I’m a city girl through and through I have never left Cairo until I got married after I graduated from Cairo University, the English department, I graduated in 78, I got married right after graduation and my husband was doing his PhD in the US, so I got married and I travelled to the US, stayed for 15 years there, and I had my two boys there, because I joined graduate school in the US, after my BA in English Literature in Cairo University. So the first part of my life was all very busy and it was in the US, I got married I had my two boys there, I had my Masters degree from North Carolina State University, and I had my PhD from the University of California, Berkeley. So I did everything in the first 15 years and then we came back to Cairo, I came back to my job in the English department in Cairo University as a professor, you know I took the usual root of promotion until I became a full professor, in my home department, the English department in Cairo University. But before marriage I was raised in Cairo all throughout my life, and the last thing is about my mother, because I mentioned that my father is an engineer, Okay, my mother was a teacher, an English teacher, she worked as an English teacher in a school, a school teacher, that’s it, that’s the basic broad lines of my family background, yeah.

Nicola Pratt: do you mind saying the sate you were born?

OA: 1957. Yes, sure.

NP: I am sorry if I missed that the first time.

OA: 1957, coz that’s important later on.

NP: Okay, do you, what is your first memories of national events or political events, you remember from your childhood?

OA: sure, sure, my earliest memory is 1967, right. I was ten years of age, you know the war and ,, the 1967 war, at that time when you used to turn off the lights, it was very primitive at the time every night for a few months, and hear the warning sirens, that was in the 60s right. So every night there will be sirens and threats of death and then we had to turn of the lights every single night for few months, paint the glasses in blue and put tape and those things were done in the 60. However, the atmosphere of war, but I don’t remember any bombs in downtown Cairo, there weren’t, it was all the Suaize Canal Area really, right, but we were a country at war, so this is my early memory of war. And then of course the memory of Nassir’s what is it in English? Abdication…

NP: resignation.
OA: resignation, yeah, you abdicate the thrown, yeah. And then Nassir’s resignation, that night. Actually, I was just talking about this the other day when we were at Huda’s and I was saying I remember this very well. You know, 10 years I don’t understand the politics very well, but when you are 10 years of age and you look to you parents and you just remember their reaction to political events, and this is how you build that, so I remember that day, sitting on the sofa watching TV, watching Abdel Nassir resign and I remember my mother breaking down in tears crying, and my father was getting very, very upset, he was a heavy smoker, he gets up, he fetches his cigarettes, and starts yelling, this is not right, this is not right, he is the best man in the world. Talking about Nassir, now my parents were not politicized at all, never, not part of political parties or political orientations, just my father was, as I said, an engineer and a school teacher, so just regular Egyptian citizens, and they were not Nasserites in the ideological sense, or nationalists but they were lovers and supporters of Nassir. Like, you know the rest. So I remember that day that there is a catastrophe, a national catastrophe, my mother is crying, that is my memory of that day, and my father saying, he is the best, about Nassir, he can’t leave us now, he has been wronged, this is not his fault, something like that, this is not right and the country is going to pieces. So this is my earliest 10 years. Anything else?

NP: When you were in university, did you participate on any groups or societies or activities?

OA: No, when I was an undergraduate, again, this… I was completely un politicized, at all, that was the early part of Sadat era, I think, something like that, so my undergraduate, no, wait a second… in the 70s, from 74 until 78. No, I wasn’t politicized at all, I remember even in the 3rd year, the January 18th and 19th events took place at that time. And I also was not into that. My engagement perhaps with political issues, the first time I began seriously to look at political issues, is during Sadat, was when I was in the US, when I got married, early 80s, so from… and the camp David accords, that’s when I first began to look into and think about the political issues, Egypt and Israel and the peace accord and the US.

NP: the… during this period, were you aware of students being politically active on campus, different orientations?

OA: No, I wasn’t aware of that, no. Because I think in the 70s it was a time of yes, we would hear about problems of the Muslim Brotherhood, but not in the faculty of arts, it was more in the faculty of medicine, faculty of engineering, more hot beds for that kind of body. It was in the beginning right, the activities of the Islamists, this is in the beginning when male students started to have beards in the public, and that was in the beginning, very slight and only in other faculties, not in the faculty of arts.

NP: How did you find living in America?

OA: yeah,. There was a little element of a cultural shock but not much, not much. Because when I went there, I got immediately, after one semester, 3 or 4 months, I immediately registered in the MA program in North Carolina State University, and I got so busy with that, so I was plunged immediately in work and in study, so think I didn’t have free time to reflect on like my life here is so different from my life in Cairo, just work, work, and try to survive, and graduate school is very, very tough. So, the big thing was to try and survive, to get a GPA that doesn’t plunge beyond, you know how it is, it was tough professionally and not socially or culturally.

NP: Why did you decide to come back to Cairo?

OA: Yes, because being in the US was for a particular purpose, I mean, I never had in mind that I wanted to immigrate or… it was for a purpose of getting a good graduate education, getting an MA and a PhD. And I never officially resigned from Cairo University, I was always applying for leaves to study to get there and to come back. I never, it was taken for granted that this is my life here I am going to come back and continue, but I want t have a good education, a good graduate education and have a PhD degree form somewhere. So I never thought differently, so once I was done, I came back, I went back to the US to live for another 2 or 3 years and work there after my PhD, because my husband was thinking, why not? Why don’t we continue to live in the US? We have been living there for 12 years, we had our kids there, so we might as well continue living and raise our kids as American citizens and all of that. So there was a period where he was considering that option. But I didn’t want to live in the US, I wanted to come back.

NP: so when you came back did you find Egypt changed?

OA: let me remember, a very good question, I’m trying to remember the 80, No, not much, I mean the change came after, in the 90s and the 2000s. I didn’t feel like it, or at least I don’t remember now, I don’t have a vivid or stark memory of something that surprised me as something has changed, I don’t remember that.

NP: So, how did you become involve d in the Woman and Memory Forum?

OA: Yes, that was at the end of the 90s, you know, so I was after 5 or 6 years of coming back from the US in the early 90s, and we settled and we found an apartment and we put the children to school. And that’s it; we are going to settle here, so that was in the end of the 90s. in 97, 98 and I went back to the English department to teach English literature and a little bit of comparative literature, and I was approached by Hudda El Sadda, saying that you know, we need to form some sort, I wasn’t clear from the very beginning that we are going to have an NGO or a big research center, that development came as we went along, but the first thing was an approach from Hudda El Sadda, saying, we are forming a study circle to study history and gender, Arab history, Islamic history, Tradition. And I got interested in that, because already my PhD was about Sufism, it was about comparative between Sufism and Christian pessimism so it was a cross between literature and the history of tradition. And I was really getting interested in tradition from a literary and a critical point of view not necessary gender or politics at that time, but when Huda offered that kind of new activity which was sort of, not academic, but a study activity on the side, that really peaked my interested, and I said, yes, I would like to spend sometime other than teaching pure English literature, you know 19 century poetry, romantic and neoclassical poetry and all of that, she is a professional. I would like to have this opportunity where we can read our tradition in Arabic, you know, just read Arabic history, Arabic tradition and so on and so forth. So that was the initial call, so I began to get into that, issues of gender and women, I wasn’t sensitized before Women and Memory. So I don’t know how, or what the history of Women and Memory but we went through phases in terms of logistics, It was really at the beginning a study circle of 4 or 5 women, Hala Kamal, Sumaya Ramadan, Iman Babers, and Huda Lutfi from AUC, just a study circle looking at history and we were a part of another NGO at the time, just a project on the side, but we began as interested at history from a gender sensitive perspective. And each one of us was interested in a period of history, I was interested in the pre modern period, the middle ages, Hudda was more in the modern, 20th century, I think Sumaya Ramadan was interested in the 19th century, at the time of the French invasion and so on. So we began with looking at women in different periods of history, yeah, that’s how we began.

NP: So, how did you become interested in gender and Islamic texts?

OA: so around that time, I joined this as a researcher and I wasn’t sensitized and I wasn’t into feminism and gender issues, I was doing this as a researcher interested in pre-modern Islamic history and Sufism. But then when I began to read the tradition, particular modern Arab scholars writing on Sufi women, because when I joined I said I would like to research Sufi women. So reading modern Arab scholars writing about Sufi women in history, it was so patriarchal, it was wrong, I felt there was something wrong even in the analysis of history, patriarchal, very biased to a male view, to a male interpretation, very condescending even of women Sufi, those are these moderns, and when I went to the pre-modern, the classical scholars as well, the classical Islamic historians writing on women, also it was a mixed bag, they would praise pious women, you know the history of hagiography, right? So they would praise pious women, but there was always something condescending about these women, it was biased, and male view, so I began to be aware of that. And then I got interested in theology, got interested not just in the history of Sufi women, but interested also in gender issues in Islam. Because I found myself bothered by some of things I read, the classical and that began to alert me to contemporary culture, popular culture, you know watching a TV program, being in a social gathering, in the university, something happened inside you know, that began to sensitized me to gender issue, you start noticing things you haven’t noticed before about gender context in society, cultural attitudes, culture attitudes that use religious discourses to justify. I am religious as the next girl you know, like any Egyptian girl, you know, and I didn’t like what I was getting from the culture, from society and from what I was reading and I said, no, this can’t be right? This can’t be the Islam that we like and practice and believed in since we were born, that kind of discourse, the injustice, the bias, no, no, does really God want us to be like this? Really, God wants it that way? I never thought about it before, so this is the time where I start engaging with it intellectually, so that’s when I got into the idea of gender in Islam, and gender in Islamic discourses, or you know, I said, I want to get to the bottom of this. My instinct, not instinct but my religious, emotional upbringing, tells me one thing but what I am receiving is something I don’t like form the culture, society and the literature that I am reading. So this is the time when I said, I want to read for myself, I want to understand for my self. What does the Quran say what does the Prophet say may peace be upon him said, what is it exactly? So I started to read into gender and feminists and feminist theory sort of mixing the two.

NP: do you feel similar discomfort with some feminist theories, feminist discourses in regards to religion?

OA: Not discomfort because I was really reading them as theories, you know, they are secular feminist theories, so that was okay, I was learning about all these different dimension or different schools of feminism, so I didn’t feel discomfort, I was just looking to whatever would be relevant or would help me, would suite me, so I was approaching them as theories, as things to learn about. Well, I may have… the discomfort comes from my own context, discomfort comes, not discomfort but confusion and conflicted, when I began as a member with Woman and Memory Forum through the years and I would mix with circles who for a lack of a better words, secular feminist Egyptians for instance, not discomfort, it is too strong of a word, not even tension or conflict, again, these are strong words for what I felt, but what I felt is, how do I find a place for myself? They have a right to do what they do and just like the Muslim Sisters have the rights to believe in what they do, how do I find for myself a place where I can be not that and not that… and maintain good relations, because I didn’t want t isolate myself, I mean, to maintain good relations with Egyptian secular feminists, and to find the commonality, okay, maybe they are not interested… and this is of course their right. Maybe they are not interested in religious issues or in religious justifications of gender equality as I am interested in that. Which is completely their right of course. But how do we work to get, the common thing is that we are all interested in improving the quality of life of Egyptian women, so how do we focus on what is common. And I will have a religious approach and they would have a UN approach and so on, so as time went on I was thinking about these things.

NP: Do you feel that you were successful in finding a place for you self within these different orientation or building bridges and finding common grounds?

OA: Yeah, I think so, I think so, because thank God, I think, I hope I am not wrong, I was able to project truly what I believe, the fact that I am interested in the religious issues will not prevent me from being with you guys in campaigns for women, I am not going to isolate myself and I am not going to make my self superior or judgmental, so I think thank God I projected that kind of attitude and build that trust, because at the very beginning, and in the beginning of the Veil movement in the 80s when it was… so at the beginning I could see that trust was difficult on the part of the secular feminists or, is she for real? Or is she conservative? But judging from having good personal relations with all the activists now, all the women activists working now, I have good personal relations so I think it worked thank God, I think.

NP: did you think when the memory forum played an important role in enabling you to find this space for yourself?

OA: Yes, definitely, definitely, because if I hadn’t joined, or haven’t part of the WMF, I would continue to be an academic or a researcher, publishing papers and teaching, and not playing a part of the wider circle of activism or to know other feminists so definitely it had allowed me for that and it has allowed, to go back to your question, to find that space, yes, because Women and Memory Forum is a welcoming inclusive space, so we maybe different I don’t know on a personal level, though we don’t reflect much on that, it is a safe inclusive place.

NP: do you think that you have played a role in paving the way for other younger women who are now active around women’s rights issues and who are also veiled?

OA: I don’t know about playing a role, but being in the university, not just being in WMF and being involved with the projects and for the last 5 or 6 years we have been accommodating people from the younger generation, I don’t know if you can see, whether from the staff in the library projects or in what ever, but in WMF and the university, the fact… and you know being a professor at the university or an academician you are always engaging with the young. Right, the young generation, so I just want to say that, I meet girls from the younger generation and you know 20s up to even early 30s. I don’t know if I have an effect on them, but they come to me and they said that, this kind of orientation, this kind of middle space speaks to us very much, this is what I am looking for, this is what I want, you know, younger girls who are veiled, you know, and religious in a very normal kind of way, but they have a budding, I call it a bedding feminine conscience, where she feels that there are something wrong with a lot of the biases in the culture, something wrong with the religious discourses this time that we got to justify, blah, blah, blah… and they say, yeah, that is the kind of thing that we are looking for, this is the kind of space that speaks to me, and this is very rewarding to me, because if you feel that you are not this isolated researcher writing about Islamic feminism, but it is the relationship to the ground, it is grounded, it is rooted. So it effects, yeah. So I know, not many, its not a movement, but I know a lot of young students and young graduate students, young activists in the field also, were very interested in these issues, in this kind of space and orientations. Yeah.

NP: could I just ask you to define or explain a bit more, what you mean by religious in a normal way?

OA: Yeah, yeah, you know, someone like used this recently and I found it a good way to use… taking Islam for granted. You know, somebody recently I was reading to someone and she used that phrase, to mean that you have a normal upbringing where of course you pray 5 times a day, of course when Ramadan comes you fast.

TAPE 2

OA:… of course you don’t drink, of course you don’t eat pork. This is the normal kind of way, but you enjoy going to the movies, you enjoy seeing… enjoy music, you mix with people, you mix with boys, with men, you shake hands, you know, that kind of thing. But normal in a sense that a practicing Muslim in everyday life. Yeah.

NP: and that would be contrasted with more strict practices of Islam and also more secular?

OA: that is a good question… Yeah.

NP: Is that in the middle to a spectrum?

OA: contrasted to what? That is a good way of putting it. It would be contrasted, you know, I’ll take the lead from your question, it will be contrasted to three kinds of attitudes towards religion. To be contrasted to the extreme secular perhaps attitude, but then I am not sure, when I say secular, I don’t want to be judgmental, I don’t use it in judgmental way, right. So, secular, none practicing, I am just trying to find a way not to judge people in what they do in their private life, whether they practice or not, it is not my business. Whether they drink beer or wine in their social gatherings, again it is not my business. So non practicing, I don’t know, whatever you want to call it, so to be contrasted to that kind of attitude or life style, lets put it that way. But also be contrasted to two other attitudes towards religion, one I would call the ideological political Islamist attitude, which is to be what would the Muslim Brotherhood would present, right. Ideologizing religion, political Islam kind of attitude. The Muslim Brotherhood track. And then the Salafi track, the Wahabi track, which is the, which is none political but is literal application of Islam and an extremist. The Niqab, the non mixing with, no gender mixing, very literal interpretation of Islam. Music is haram, singing is haram, you know that whole thing, at one point they were saying that TV is haram. So I guess that it would be contrasted to these three things there.

NP: and is it challenging to occupy the space that you occupy, the type of position you take in light of the increasing politicization of Islam? But within Egypt internationally in terms of post 9/11?

OA: I am sorry, can you repeat the first part of the question?

NP: is it challenging for you to take the position that you take?

OA: Now, or?

NP: well, in general, have like, well, I dot want to miss characterize your position, but lets say it’s a position, is sort of a middle space…

OA: Sort of unclear?

NP: Not not clear, but like you are taking a middle space, and you are taking it publically, I mean, it is not just like an ordinary Egyptian being religious normally? I mean, you are taking a position in your public right…

OA: as a woman and a researcher and an academic.

NP: and is that difficult given how political Islam and how Islam is politicized?

OA: and how challenging, of course, yeah. It is challenging because you have to explain yourself all the time. And you have to make it clear to yourself as well as to others, because we are human beings, we get confused too, I get confused about myself too, right? So your constantly in your mind explain it to yourself and to others, where you are from these things. Particularly before the revolutions, or before and after 9/11, where you have to say I am an Islamic but I am not an Islamists, you know, so you want to be like I am not a Muslim Brotherhood, and I am not into application of Sharia or the Islamic State, you know, remember the discourse on establishing an Islamic state even before the Egyptian revolution, right? So I am not into that kind of discourse, I am not sure what is an Islamist state or what can we do with an Islamic state, I am not into that. But I am an Islamic thinker, you know, interested in actual Islam and Islamic philosophy, in Sufism, in Islamic knowledge, I am interested in that as a researcher. So does that make me… so you constantly have to clarify and explain your political position and your cultural position on… so challenging in that kind of way, yeah.

NP: is that still possible in light of the polarization that, in Egypt?

OA: No, there was always challenging, even, I remember during the… still challenging and still very difficult, I mean, it is getting more and more difficult, because now its politics, its not just where you are in terms of religion or intellectually, but also politically. It’s become also difficult.

NP: apart from your writings and research, are there any other ways in which you are active?

OA: No, its always through my research and disseminating it, and through WMF activities, like the gender workshops, like seminars, like lectures, like approaching the young, so its been through that.

NP: Can I ask about your participation about the 25th January?

OA: Okay, sure.

NP: Did you join these demonstrations on the 25th January?

OA: Not on the 25th, not on the 28th, but afterwards, during the 18 days of Tahrir, the sit in. But I didn’t go as often as I wanted to. Because I live in Heliopolis, I live in Masr El Jdeedah, which is very far from Tahrir, and you have, so its just logistics, you have to cross the October bridge, and you couldn’t always find a cab to take you across, the October bridge from Heliopolis and drop you off at Tahrir. And I don’t drive, I have a car, but I have a driver because I don’t drive, and he used to be afraid… So, it was just a matter of finding transportation, to Tahrir and staying until it is sunset and having to go back, it was scary and it was always dangerous on October bridge. You never know what’s going to happen. So I only went like 3 times in the mornings, I didn’t spend a lot of times as I want it, and I regret that I didn’t go more often. Or stayed very, very late, that was during the 18 days, I went only 3 times.

NP: and did you take your own placards? Did you write your own placards to take to Tahrir?

OA: No, I would use whatever is there. Afterwards I did, during the year of SKAF, I went more often, I was bolder, I did my own signs at one point with Huda and then we went, so, I became bolder that year of SKAF. I went to more demonstrations during that year and a half.

NP: So some of the fears that you had during the 18 days, you know, the 25th January revolution, those went away after Mubarak stepped down? When you said you became bolder I was wondering if you felt like you were bolder in comparison to the 18 days?

OA: Yeah, that’s what I felt, so you are asking why you feel that way, more empowered sort of. Yeah, it grew on me, these are revolutionary times and we should be more positive and more activists and there is nothing to be afraid of, I will get a cab I will get whatever, my car parked far… I mean somehow I became bolder in dealing with going out and being in demonstrations yeah. I felt I should be a prat of this, yeah.

NP: and did you participate in the 30th of June?

OA: No I didn’t. I didn’t, yeah.

NP: Is that because, but in this I will…

OA: No, of course, sure. Yeah. Yeah

NP: Why didn’t you participate?

OA: I felt that, okay. I felt this comfort with those demonstrations in particular, because I felt it was leading at the time, even though three days before July the 3rd, I felt this is not going to lead to something, to something right procedurely, I felt that we are at the beginning to the road to chaos, that something chaotic is going to happen. I was not supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood at all in the revolution. But I felt that we can oust Mursi procedurly, I was of the people who wanted to… can’t we just wait until we get a parliament, and then maybe we can change the government, and maybe we can find a procedural way of ousting Mursi. Other than this, because yeah, I felt that we were breaking the rules, we were breaking the rules of the game and this is going to open the door to anyone who doesn’t like a president to do demonstrations, I wanted to do it procedurally I guess. I was anti-Muslim Brotherhood completely. I was is, I cant remember now when, but I was in demonstrations against Muslim Brotherhood during that year, and I wrote against them, I didn’t vote for them at all. But I wasn’t confortable with the Tamarud movement, or the June 30th. And then July 3rd was, I was really sure I am against this trajectory, against this track. Yeah, and I am still conflicted until this very moment about it, yeah.

NP: so did you feel that June 30th was not the next stage of the revolution, or was it more like it was a wrong strategy for the revolution?

OA: Yes, yes, that’s it, I felt it was not right it was a long strategy and I am going to also use, a very cliché very superficial cliché but I am going to use it, and I am going to use it, 2 wrongs don’t make a right, cliché, the Muslim Brotherhood rule was wrong, was wrong in the sense that they came with elections, right, no body can deny that. They were horribly, their rule was horribly made so many political mistakes and other kinds of mistakes, they were really bad. But 2 bads don’t make a… we can’t remove a wrong by another wrong, that’s even more serious, so I looked upon this, I looked at military intervention in July the 3rd and the new role now of the military as a wrong, that is even bigger than the Muslim Brotherhood, so I didn’t see that this is a solution.

NP: Can I ask how you see the relationship between your… okay, can I ask you, do you give a label to your position?

OA: Political position or?

NP: I meant intellectual position with regards to gender sensitive reading of Islamic discourses?

OA: I use the word feminist.

NP: You use that? Okay.

OA: I have no problem with that, feminist, an Egyptian feminist, because I am interested in women’s issues, I want a better life for Egyptian women. I want to right wrongs, when it comes to gender bias or in society. So I am a feminist in that sense. and as far as my interest in gender issues in Islam and Islamic discourses, I guess I use the label Islamic feminism, Islamic feminist.

NP: Do you see a relationship between your intellectual activism for Islamic feminism and your participation in demonstrations that are against political, particular political regimes?

OA: Yeah, this is very interesting.

NP: do you see them linked or separate interests for you?

OA: No, I see them linked or this is my next project for your book, is my next project, because I was thinking about it since January revolution really. I been thinking about that is, these 2 have been going in parallel, my interest in Islamic feminism and gender issues in Islam, and by being, more and more politicized in my life, as you can see in my background, I never belonged to any politicized family, and I never practiced politics in my early life. But it is interesting that both these areas are growing and going in parallel, but since the January revolution I have been thinking deeply about that, that is there a relation? And if there is none, then I would like to craft and I would like to make relation in my mind, the intellectual relation, commitment or ethics of some sort, just like here on this side, we argue that there is a certain ethics of justice, ethics of gender justice, this is what we arguing right? Because Islamic feminism, there are ethics of gender justice that should be part of Islam? In terms of politics, there should also be ethics of justice, in the public sphere, in the political sphere, and ethics of anti corruption, and ethics of anti double standards, standardness or whatever, and ethics of transitional justice, and ethics of you know, the whole bit. So this is my next project that I want to think more deeply about these issues, this issue in particular, that the relationship., or there should be a relationship, if we are talking about ethics and gender, and also politics. And whether… because I have written earlier, since January revolution, I’ve written once in passing, but this is something that I want to expand on, but I have written in passing, that if you are an Islamic feminist you are anti patriarchy, anti misogyny, using religion to justify bias, and justify patriarchy, but you should also be anti any form of injustice, not just gender injustice, but any form of injustice and any form of tyranny and authoritarianism, that is the word I was looking for, authoritarianism, whether in the field of gender or the field of politics and public… so this is something that I will be thinking more about, and try to what’s the word in English? Articulate more.

NP: Just to clarify, was the 25th January revolution the start of a tragictory of politicization for you?

OA: Yes, it was the landmark, not… yeah, a turning point, definitely.

NP: So before then, you hadn’t been involved for example, with Kefaya or…

OA: No I haven’t been involved with Kefaya, you know you would follow your news, I mean in your heart, we were all supportive of these opposition movements, 3 or 4 years before the revolution, the only one thing that I did… how come I dropped that, I should have mentioned that… before the 35 revolution which was in 2003, 2004, which is, I officially joined the Wasat party. How come I forgot that?

NP: That is very important?

OA: very significant and I forgot that because I have been so disheartened, disenchanted with them. Okay, lets tell the story of the Wasat party, yeah, 2003, 2004, Abuelela Madi, who was the president of the Wasat party was in the news and trying to get official, you know, if you know the history of the Wasat party since the 90s, I think. They have been trying one after, one attempt after the other, to get an official permit to establish the Wasat party, I was aware of them mid 2000, and I went to meet him and I went to meet the guys there, and you know, and I actually made the power of attorney, I don’t know how to say that in English, I mean, when you go to the…you know when you register officially, the power of attorney, for the Wasat party, so you go an register officially and then you go to Wasat party and you give a your… I don’t know what it is in English.

NP: Registration.

OA: Yeah, yeah, this is how it is done here. So then that’s how become a founding member, so I finally became a founding member of the Wasat party, and then it was officially right after January revolution, two months, I think in March or April 2011, by coincidence, their papers were up again at that time, even if the revolution hadn’t, if there weren’t a revolution, their papers were up in March 2011, for another consideration in the courts and of course they were going to be rejected for the 5th or 5th time they have been trying this. But after the revolution this was the first time that they were given an official approval right, and they became an official Wasat party and they had a headquarters and everything. And I went there, I became a founding member, of an official party. However, after the revolution, I said okay, this is the time to be really an active member in the Wasat party and I had planned to be active. Because I haven’t been active before, although I was as a founding member, even before the revolution and I did this, but there was a period, I lived in Qatar for three years, I got a job in Qatar university, teaching, my mother was very sick and she passed away and I was depressed, so although I was officially registered I didn’t go there a lot of times to the Wasat party, but you know, I consider myself a subscriber to what I thought was their policy, or their program, I read their program and I heard their program and everything. And after the revolution I continued to be busy with research and commitments and teaching and every time I go I would say, they would ask me don’t you want to be in a committee of some sort and I said, yes, yes, I want to, but right now I am busy, next tie I will be n some sort of a committee there, until I noticed that they began to come very close to the Muslim Brotherhood, and to be identified with the policies and the politics of the Muslim Brotherhood… particularly, the time that I felt completely enchanted with them and sort of emotionally divorced from the Wasat party was during the formation of the constitution assembly, the hundred, the constitution assembly, and when president Mursi issued his constitutional declaration you know, and the Wasat party whom I joined on account of political and intellectual independence on the Muslim Brotherhood, I mean, I looked at them as an alternative of an Islamic polity that is different from the Muslim Brotherhood, that is not ideologically political Islam, that their program didn’t speak about an Islamic state, they didn’t speak about a literal application of Shariaa, the borders and you know, they only talked about, we are a civilian party with an Islamic frame of reference in terms of an intellectual frame of reference. You know, we believe in the principles of Shariaa, the justice, the ethics, the compassion, the overall principles of the Islamic tradition, we believe that the Islamic tradition is the component of our culture, and this is our frame of reference, intellectually and culturally. So that kind of discourse appealed to me, so I thought, this is a good alternative to the Muslim Brotherhood, to the Salafis and alternative to… you know, I wasn’t a Marxist, I wasn’t a Nasserite, politically, so I said maybe this is the typr of political forum that I can belong to right? And they were all good guys all right, enlightened and all of that. And then at that time I said, what? They lost their political independence, they are just tagging along the Muslim Brotherhood, which means to me, that they lost also, if ever had it, I don’t know, their intellectual independence also, it seems that, so I was disenchanted with them during that time. And I stopped going and I didn’t participate in any other elections, I just stopped going. You know, and as like, I followed them in the Media getting worst and worst in my eyes, I identified very much with the politics and the policies of the Muslim Brotherhood, and it was a disillusioned, I said, these guys! I thought they were different! They are not that different, although they were arguing that, you know, we are not the Muslim… you know I would see them on TV or in Media, stopped meeting with them and I stopped going there. And they were arguing, we still not the Muslim Brotherhood, we are just supporting the legitimate rule, and theoretically yes, this was the legitimate elected rule during that year, so theoretically yes, you have a right to support the elected government, the elected president, but they were arguing for all of the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood so passionately, that I felt, they are really not different you know. So I sent an email to the Wasat party, and said I am resigning, I am not… that was before the 30th June, earlier in the year I think, earlier in 2013, Yeah. I said I am resigning and I never got any answer, I went into the site, I knew one particular guy, I still have his number, but I didn’t want o call him, I said I will just do this by email. You see, again, my lack of political experience, I didn’t know what people do when they want to resign from parties, and you know how this is done, you have to go there or you call people up, and at that time I wasn’t on Facebook, I got on the site of the Wasat Party…

TAPE 3

OA: and I wanted to see if here is a place where people resign, I didn’t know what to do, I just sent an email, no body answered me, so I just ignored the whole thing, that’s it. That’s the story of me and the Wasat Party, yeah.

NP: do you have any ideas on why they started to defend the Muslim Brotherhood policies?

OA: No, you know, its part of politics, they became associated with authority, so you know, it makes sense that they would support that to continue to be part of that. But what I was thinking of and this is related to the point that we raised earlier is okay, this maybe the political smart thing to do, the Wasat party is a small party and maybe they want to tag along to be bigger to grow to become more influential, you know, politics, its just sheer politics of course, this is understandable, but the question on my mind was again, ethical question, is this right to do? It is politically opportunistic and political opportunism is the right and wrong the ethical… for an Islamic party you are supposed to be ethical, you are supposed not to be politically opportunistic and this is why we have been criticizing the Muslim Brotherhood for very long, they are using religious discourses to justify dirty political games. So the Wasat is doing it, that was my disillusioned… yeah.

NP: Is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you think is important and you want to add?

OA: No, not that I can think of. No.

NP: Thank you!

OA: Sure.

NP: Thank you so…



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