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Parliamentary debates (Hansard)

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Title:
Parliamentary debates (Hansard) House of Commons [containing reports on the China Indemnity]
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Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons
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London
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Subjects / Keywords:
Boxer Rebellion (China : 1899-1901) ( lcsh )
China-Boxer Indemnity Fund ( lcsh )
义和团运动
義和團運動
庚子賠款獎學金
庚子赔款奖学金
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Asia -- China
Europe -- United Kingdom
亚洲 -- 中国
亞洲 -- 中國
欧洲 -- 英国
歐洲 -- 英國
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93 x 103
51.507222 x -0.1275

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A collection of various Parliamentary Debates (United Kingdom) pertaining to the China Indemnity following the Boxer Rebellion.
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official
report.

House of Commons.
Vol. 248. No. 55 Tuesday, 10th February, 1931.
Contents.
QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS:
Trade and Commerce: Russia,
New Zealand (Earthquake).
AGRICULTURAL LAND (UTILISATION) BILL:
As amended (in the Standing Committee), further considered.
Read the Third time, and passed.
CHINA INDEMNITY (APPLICATION) BILL:
Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
London:
Printed and Published by His Majesty's Stationery Office.
To be purchased in the manner indicated on the hack of this Wrapper.
Price Sixpence Net.




179 Private Business. 10 February 1931 Oral Answers.
180
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Tuesday, 10th February, 1931.
[OFFICIAL REPORT.]
The House met at a Quarter before
Three of the Gloch, Mr. Speaker in the
Chair.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
Public Offices (Sites) Amendment Bill,
Ordered, That the Examiners of
Petitions for Private Bills do examine
the Public Offices' (Sites) Amendment
Bill with respect to compliance with the
Standing Orders relative to Private Bills.
New Junction Canal Bill,
Calder and Hebble Navigation Bill,
Walthamstow Corporation Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Reports
to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.
SCOTLAND.
Housing.
1. Mr. McKINLAY asked the Secre-
tary of State for Scotland if he is aware
of the formation of a brickmakers sell-
ing agency in Glasgow and the West of
Scotland, and that the said agency will
control the supply of 100,000,000 bricks
per annum; whether he is aware of the
intention of this agency to fix minimum
prices; and what steps he proposes to
take to safeguard the operation of the
Slum Clearance Act to prevent any
attempt to raise prices against local
authorities proceeding with schemes of
re-housing under the said Act ?
The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE
for SCOTLAND (Mr. Johnston): I have
seen a Press report to the effect that an
agency on the lines indicated by my hon.
Friend is being set up. If it should
appear that the operations of this agency
result in an increase in the price of
bricks, the matter wijj^at once be
brought to the Inter-
Departmental to
No. 55 |K CHINESE ) .
survey the prices of building materials,
but I earnestly trust that the anticipated
increase in the number of houses to be
built consequent on the passing of the
Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, will not
in any quarter be used as an oppor-
tunity to increase the cost of building
materials.
2. Mr. TRAIN asked the Secretary of
State for Scotland the number of houses
built in Glasgow under the various
Housing Acts since 1919 ; the number at
present let; and what arrears of rent
are outstanding 1
Mr. JOHNSTON: As the answer in-
volves a rather long tabular statement,
I propose, with the hon. Member's per-
mission, to circulate it in the Official
Report.
Mr. TRAIN: Will the hon. Gentleman,
in considering this question, consider
bringing into line the rents of the houses
under the various schemes, and making
comparable rents for comparable
houses ?
Mr. JOHNSTON: The question on the
Paper asks, not for an answer on policy,
but for a table of statistics. I suggest
to the hon. Member that he should
pursue his suppelmentary question on
another occasion.
Following is the answer:
The number of houses built in Glasgow
under the various Housing Acts since
and including that of 1919 up to 31st
December, 1930, is as follows:
By Local Authority:
Housing Town Planning etc.
(Scotland) Act, 1919 ... 4,988
Housing etc. Act, 1923
(a) General ............2,480
(b) iSlum Clearance ............4,684
Housing (Financial Provisions)
Act, 1924 ......... 12,974
Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930
25,126
By Private Enterprise:
Housing (Additional Powers)
Act, 1919 ......... 146
Housing (Additional Powers)
Act, 1919, Public Utility
Societies ......... 85
Housing etc. Act, 1923 ...... 2,338
Housing etc. Act, 1923, Public
Utility Societies ... ...
A


182 Written Answers.
Housing (Financial Provisions)
Act, 1924 ......... 2,840
Housing (Financial Provisions)
Act, 1924, Public Utility
Societies ... ...
5,409
Government Steel Houses 760
Grand Total ... 31,295
I am informed that all the houses built
by the corporation are at present let,
and that the amount of arrears of rent
outstanding on these houses (including
recoverable arrears) is approximately
£27,200. Corresponding information re-
lating to houses built by assisted private
enterprise is not available.
3. Mr. TRAIN asked the Secretary of
State for Scotland how many local autho-
rities have submitted schemes to the
Scottish Department of Health under the
recent slum-clearance legislation; how
many have been approved; and if any
have begun operations ?
Mr. JOHNSTON: As the answer is
long and involves a number of figures, I
propose, with the Hon. Member's permis-
sion, to circulate it in the Official
Report.
Following is the answer:
The Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, does
not require the submission of formal
schemes by local authorities, but only of
proposals for dealing with insanitary
houses.
Up to date, the Department of Health
for Scotland have approved for the pur-
poses of subsidy under the Act proposals
for the erection of 612 houses by five
local authorities, and these authorities
have begun operations. In addition,
Clearance Resolutions have been sub-
mitted to the Department by five other
local authorities in terms of Sub-section
2 of Section 1 of the Act in respect
of 40 areas embracing 1,780 houses occu-
pied by 7,424 persons. I am aware that
proposals are under consideration by
many other local authorities.
I may add that. 117 out of 227 local
authorities have submitted to the De-
partment general statements in terms of
(Sub-section 2 of Section 22 of the
Written Answers. 22(3
Act, showing that they estimate that
60,201 houses are required to meet their
needs, and that they intend to provide
40,822 of these houses in the next three
years. The local authorities are being
asked to expedite the completion of the
details of these proposals so that full
advantage can be taken of this year's
building season.
Child Adoption Orders.
5. Mr. MATHERS asked the Lord
Advocate whether he is now fully in-
formed of the difference in the cost of
obtaining child adoption orders in Scot-
land as compared with England; and
what steps is he taking in an endeavour
to simplify and cheapen the Scottish
procedure ?
The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Craigie
Aitchison): I am not aware of any dif-
ference in cost, but, if my hon. Friend
will put before me any concrete case in
which the charges appear to be excessive,
I will have the matter looked into.
Mr. MATHERS: Is my right hon. and
learned Friend not 'aware that, very
largely, the difference in the costs
entailed in putting through an adoption
order in Scotland as compared with
England is due to the heavy charge for
the employment of a curator ad litem;
and is it not possible for provision to be
made, 'as I know is done in England, for
some voluntary agency to undertake this
task?
The LORD ADVOCATE: The expense
of a curator ad litem is not greater in
Scotland than in England. I understand
that in England there is a practice of re-
sponsible people undertaking the work
voluntarily, and, if this suggestion were
made to the Courts in Scotland, I have
no reason to think but that it would be
given effect to.
COAL INDUSTRY.
Royalties.
7. Mr. TINKER asked the Secretary
for Mines the amount of royalties paid in
Lancashire during 1928 and 1929?
The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr.
Shin well): The estimated total amount
of royalties paid by colliery owners in
Lancashire and Cheshire in 1928 was
£361,300, and in 1929 £373,400.
HOUSE OP COMMONS


183 Oral Answers. 10 February 1931 Oro.i Answers.
188
Sir GEORGE HAMILTON: Can the
hon. Gentleman ,say what part of those
sums relates to Lancashire, as the
question only refers to Lancashire, and
what part relates to Cheshire ?
Mr. SHINWELL: For this purpose
Lancashire and Cheshire are included in
one district.
Workings (Distance from iShaft).
8. Mr. TINKER asked the Secretary
for Mines if his Department has given
consideration to the distance which work-
ings in mines extend from the shaft; and
if he intends to take steps to regulate
the maximum distance to which they
should go ?
Mr. SHINWELL: The subject has
been considered by the Mines Depart-
ment on more than one occasion, but 1
have no present intention to ask Parlia-
ment to prescribe a maximum distance.
Mr. TINKER : Will my hon. Friend see
that attention is paid to this matter in
the inquiry that is about to be held ?
Mr. SHINWELL : As my hon. Friend is
aware, the nature of the inquiry is in the
hands of the person who conducts it. In
this case, it will be the Chief Inspector
of Mines, and I have no doubt that he will
take cognisance of that aspect of the
matter.
Lieut. Colonel Sir A. LAMBERT
WARD : Is not this result attained more
or less automatically by the increased
cost of maintenance when the coal face
becomes too far away from the shaft1?
Mr. SHINWELL : I am afraid that that
is an entirely different question.
Mr. HARD IE : In view of the fact that
some collieries are able to produce in
excess of their quota under the Act,
would it not be possible to close down
mines in which the workings are a long
way from the shaft, especially where they
are under the sea, and to make arrange-
ments for their quota to be transferred to
other mines ?
Mr. SHINWELL: The matter is not
finally disposed of; it is being considered
by a joint committee of the Miners'
Federation and the owners.
Sunday Labour.
9. Mr. ERNEST WINTERTON asked
the Secretary for Mines whether his
attention has been called to the fact that
miners are being employed on Sundays
in the South Derbyshire coalfield after
they have worked for 90 hours under the
spread-over during the previous fort-
night ; and what steps he proposes to
take to deal with this contravention of
the Coal Mines Act, 1930?
Mr. SHIN WELL: The answer to the
first part of the question is in the
affirmative. As regards the second part,
the Coal Mines Act, 1930, has no bearing
on Sunday labour, and I am advised that
there has been no breach of that Act.
Mr. McSHANE: Is my hon. Friend
aware that this aspect of the matter is
causing very serious discontent in that
area, and that the men are making great
complaints ?
Mr. SHINWELL: If my hon. Friend
is referring to Sunday labour, I would
say that, although it may cause some
discontent, it is not within my power to
put a stop to it.
Mr. TINKER: Does the spread-over
include the seven days of the week?
Mr. SHINWELL : No, I am afraid not.
The proviso which enables the spread-
over to be operated applies to the 12
week-days in a fortnight.
Mr. WINTERTON: Does my hon.
Friend suggest that Sunday labour is per-
missible after 90 hours have been worked
in a fortnight under the spread-over?
Mr. SHINWELL: Sunday labour in
the mines is a matter of arrangement
between the parties concerned, and,
where it is in -operation, I have no power
to put an end to it.
Mr. TINKER: It is not exclusive of
the 90 hours ?
Mr. SHINWELL: I am afraid that it
is. At all events, I have been legally
advised that it is. In any case, however,
it is not a subject which is capable of
being dealt with by question and answer.
Boys (Employment Underground).
12. Mr. GORDON MACD0NALD
asked the Secretary for Mines the number
of boys under 10 years of age employed
underground in the mining industry of
No. 55
A 2


186 Written Answers.
[Mr. Macdonald.]
Great Britain, along with the number of
accidents amongst such hoys, specifying
fatal and non-fatal, for each of the last
three years, giving separate figures for
Lancashire and Cheshire 1
Written Answers. 22(3
Mr. SHINWELL: As the answer
involves a number of figures, I will, with
my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it
in the Official Report.
Following is the answer:
HOUSE OP COMMONS
Number of Boys under 16 years of age employed below-ground at mines under the Coal Mines
Act, 1911, and the number of such boys killed and injured, during the years 1927,1928 and 1929.
Average number employed below-ground. Number of Boys killed. Number of Boys disabled for more than 3 days.
1927 1928 1929 Lancashire and Cheshire. 1,216 1,107 1,316 3 3 3 ! 296 232 301
1927 1928 1929 Great Britain. 29,563 26,663 i 28,574 35 30 40 6,518 6,114 7,122
Similar particulars for 1930 are not yet available.
Workers (Statistics).
14. Mr. G. MACDONALD asked the
Secretary for Mines the number of
workers employed in in Great Britain, in each of the coal-
producing countries on the Continent of
Europe, and in the United States of
America for each of the last five years 1
Mr. SHINWELL: As the answer in-
volves a number of figures, I will, with
my hon. Friend's permission, circulate it
in the Official Report.
Following is the answer :
The information, so far as available,
is as follows:
Number of Workers employed in and about Collieries in Great Britain, the principal coal-
producing countries of Europe and the United States of America during the years 1926-1930.
Country. 1926. I 1927. 1928. 1929. 1930 (provisional).
Thousands. Average for: Thousands.
Great Britain '(Mar. 1,097) (Dec. 925) 1,005 921 939 12 months 917

Germanv :
Ruhr" ...... 364 383 359 355 11 319
Upper Silesia 48 51 56 58 10 47
France 301 307 297 290 11 294
Saar... 70 68 58 57 11 55
Belgium 160 175 163 151 10 153
Netherlands 32 34 34 36 12 38
Poland ...... 114 115 113 125 7 121
Czechoslovakia United States 58 759 58 759 1 58 683 58 655 j- Not availa ble.
Working Agreements.
6. Sir NICHOLAS GRATTAN-DOYLE
asked the Secretary for Mines how many
working agreements now in operation in
the coal-mining industry under the Coal
Mines Act, 1930, will again require con-
sideration by the National Industrial
Board when the hours clauses' of the Act
expire in July this year 1
Mr. SHINWELL: The Coal Mines
National Industrial Board was established
to inquire into any dispute, as to the terms


187 Oral Answers. 10 February 1931
Oro.i Answers.
188
of a proposed agreement in a district,
which might be referred to the Board
by either party after a failure to settle
the dispute in accordance with the
arrangements existing for that purpose
in the district. It is clearly impossible
to give any estimate of the number of
disputes (if any) which may be referred
to the Board in the future in the cir-
cumstances referred to.
Accidents.
10. Mr. TOOLE asked the Secretary
for Mines how many colliers have lost
their lives in pit disasters during the last
20 years ?
Mr. SH IN WELL : For the purposes of
this answer I am assuming an artificial
distinction between an accident and a
disaster and treating as disasters acci-
dents in which 10 or more lives were lost.
There were 22 such disasters in and about
mines under the Coal Mines Act, 1911,
during the 20 years 1911 to 1930, result-
ing in 1,070 deaths. Of these deaths 682
were caused by three disasters.
Mr. TOOLE : Can the Minister give me
any figures ishowing how many mining
royalty owners have been injured in the
pits during the same period?
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
Empire Marketing Board.
15. Mr. MANDER asked the Secretary
of State for Dominion Affairs the amount
that it is proposed to spend on research
and publicity through the Empire
Marketing Board in 1931 as compared
with previous years ?
The SECRETARY of STATE for
DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H.
Thomas) : Subject to the necessary pro-
vision being made by Parliament, it is
proposed to spend from the Empire
Marketing Fund, in 1931, £425,000 on
research and £105,000 on publicity. The
approximate amounts spent in the last
few years on these services have been
respectively, as follows:
On Research. £121,000 in 1927,
£232,000 in 1928, £377,0.00 in 1929, and
.£476,000 in 1930.
On Publicity.£238,000 in 1927,
£278,000 in 1928, £222,000 in 1929, and
£213,000 in 1930.
17. Mr. GRAHAM WHITE asked the
Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs
whether any tangible evidence has been
produced of the commercial value of the
expenditure incurred by the Empire
Marketing Board?
Mr. THOMAS: It is impossible to
assess the commercial results of the
Board's work in the wide field of Empire
production with which its research,
marketing and publicity activities are
concerned. Individual instances, how-
ever, are frequently brought to notice in
which the work of the Board has been of
direct commercial advantage to Empire
producers, both at home and overseas.
Mr. WHITE: Does the right hon.
Gentleman think that this publicity gives
full value for the £105,000 which he pro-
poses to spend on it?
Mr. THOMAS: I know that there is a
number of people who dispute the value
of this expenditure, especially those
engaged in other kinds of publicity.
Mr. HANNON: Is it not a fact that
the trade organisations in the Dominions,
whenever they have had the opportunity,
have expressed appreciation of the
admirable work that is being done by the
Board ?
Mr. THOMAS: The Imperial Con-
ference unanimously commended it.
Mr. MANDER: Do they make any
contribution towards it ?
Mr. HAYCOCK: If there is such
appreciation, why is there not reciprocity
on the part of the Dominions ?
Russian Trade Agreement (Dominions).
18. Mr., ALBERY asked the Secretary
of State for Dominion Affairs, in view
of the fact that none of the Dominions
have entered into negotiations for the
admission of a Russian trade delegation,
whether he has drawn their attention to
the facilities afforded by articles four and
six of the Russian trade agreement?
Mr. THOMAS: His Majesty's Govern-
ments in the Dominions were kept fully
in touch with the negotiations leading up
to the Agreement in question. The terms
of the Agreement itself, as finally con-
cluded, and of the accompanying declara-
tions were also, of course, communicated
to them.


190 Written Answers.
Mr. ALBERY: Has the right hon.
Gentleman received from Canada any
expression of opinion as to trade relations
with Russia?
Mr. THOMAS : No. All the Dominions
were communicated with and the terms
of the Agreement submitted to them.
It might be misunderstood and it would
be impertinent on my part to ask
whether they understood what this
Agreement meant.
Timber.
22. Mr. PRICE asked the President of
the Board of Trade what is the present
average wholesale price of a standard
of Russian timber imported into this
country and what was the price for 1928,
1929, and 1930; what is the present retail
price of a standard of the usual size of
building timber in this country; and
what was the price of the same in 1928,
1929, and 1930 ?
The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of
TRADE (Mr. William Graham): I am
unable to furnish any information as to
the average wholesale price of a
Written Answers. 22(3
-standard of Russian timber imported into
this country, but the average declared
values per load of sawn soft timber im-
ported from Russia in 1928, 1929, and
1930, were £4 14s. 2d., £4 12s. 3d., and
£4 4-s. 9d., respectively, while in Decem-
ber, 1930, the average declared value was
£4 8s. 9d. According to particulars pub-
lished in the Builder the wholesale
price per standard of timber described
as good building deal, 3 by 9 inches,
was £24 from the beginning of 1928 to
14th November, 1930, when the price fell
to- £22, at which figure it has remained
up to the present time. No information
is available as to the retail price of
timber.
40. Sir ARTHUR STE EL-MA ITL AND
asked the President of the Board of
Trade the quantities of timber imported
into this country from Canada, Norway,
Sweden, Finland, and Russia for each
of the years- 1928, 1929, and 1930?
Mr. GRAHAM : As the answer contains
a number of figures I will circulate it
in the Official Report.
Following is the answer:
HOUSE OP COMMONS
The following Table shows the total quantities of Wood and Timber imported into the United
Kingdom and register, d as consigned from the undermentioned Countries during the years
1928, 1929 and 1930.
Country whence 1 1928. 1929. 1930.
consigned. Hard Wood. Other Wood. Hard Wood. OtherWood. Hard Wood. Other Wood.
Canada Norway Sweden Finland ...... Soviet Union (Russia). Cu. ft. 5,165,698 24,322 68,287 964,949 209,751 Loads. 305,401 357,774 1,466,934 1,817.042 1,675,719 Cu. ft. 4,805,145 16,583 45,425 1,413,430 259,185 Loads. 306,112 393,716 1,739,114 1,996,148 2,324,113 Cu ft. 3,932,761 12,513 48,103 1,380,364 199,662 Loads. 294,843 341,553 1,403,135 1,614,480 2,931,261
War Material (Exports to Russia).
25. Major-General Sir ALFRED
KNOX asked the President of the Board
of Trade if he will give a list of the
materials of war despatched from Great
Britain to Soviet Russia from June, 1929,
to December, 1930?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: I will, with the
hon. and gallant Member's permission,
circulate in the Official Report a state-
ment showing the details as recorded.
Sir A. KNOX: Does this include
tanks ?
Mr. GRAHAM: Yes. They amount to
only £44,000, but tanks are included
under the last heading, namely, military
and naval -ordnance stores.
Captain GUNSTON : Will it be possible
to find out the war material imported
into Russia from other countries ?
Mr. GRAHAM : I am afraid I could not
furnish details. It is as much as I can
do to answer for this country.


192 Oral Answers. 10 February 1931 Oro.i Answers.
188
Captain PETER MACDONALD: Is it Mr. SPEAKER: That does not arise
not a fact that cash payments were made on this question,
for these war materials? Following is the statement:
The Following Table shows the total quantity and declared value of the exports of arms
ammunition and military and naval stores of domestic manufacture from Great Britain and
Northern Ireland registered during the period from June, 1929, to December, 1930, both inclusive,
as consigned to the Soviet Union (Russia).
Description. Unit of Quantity. Quantity. Declared Value.
Ammunition : Sporting Ammunition : Loaded Cartridges ...... ... ...... Other, including shot, but excluding empty cart- ridge cases. Blasting Accessories (including detonators, cables, etc.). High Explosives, other than blasting powder, collodion cotton, and trinitrotoluol : Gelatinous ... ...... ... ...... Rockets and other pyrotechnic products Explosives and Ammunition, not elsewhere specified in the Export List. No.- Cwt. Cwt. Cwt. Cwt. 500 80 268 (a) (a) £ i 3 197 46 1,800 89 330
Arms : Ordnance: Automatic machine and quick firing guns and parts thereof. Gun mountings and carriages and parts thereof ... Small Arms : Sporting Guns...... ... ... ... Military, Naval and Ordnance Stores and appliances, not elsewhere specified in the Export List. No. Cwt. No. Cwt. No. Cwt. 1 1 5 1 2 (a) | 623 j- 444 | 222 40,251
Total ............ 44,005
(ia) Recorded
Iron and Steel Industry.
24. Major COLVILLE asked the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade what answer
(he has returned to the communication
addressed to ihim by the National Federa-
tion of Iron and Steel Manufacturers,
directing his attention to the position
of this industry and particularly to the
fact that steel production is at present
at approximately only 30 per cent, of
production capacity; and what action he
proposes to take in the interest of the
workers in this industry ?
35. Major BEAUMONT THOMAS
asked the President of .the Board of
Trade, with regard to the resolution
passed by the National Federation of
Iron and Steel Manufacturers on 15th
January, which he has received, whether
by value only.
he proposes to take any steps to deal
witb the situation ?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: The communica-
tion from the National Federation of
Iron and Steel Manufacturers has been
acknowledged. As regards the action to
be taken I can add nothing to the reply
on this subject which I gave to the hon.
and gallant Member for King's Norton
on 3rd February.
Major COLVILLE: In what parts of
the country has the Government policy
resulted in the employment of more work
people in this industry ?
Mr. GRAHAM: The industry, unfor-
tunately, is suffering from the general
depression in trade, but we have taken a


193 Written Answers. HOUSE OP
[Mr. Graham.]
very definite part in the reorganisation
of iron and steel, and I hope that these
will mature at an early date.
Mr. R. A. TAYLOR : How does the re-
lative decline in iron and steel in Great
Britain compare with Germany and the
United States ?
Mr. BROCKWAY: Is the right hon.
Gentleman considering the suggestion of
an import hoard for the industry?
Mr. SPEAKER: That raises another
question altogether.
Marketing.
28. Mr. MANDER asked the President
of the Board of Trade if he will consider
the advisability of appointing a home
marketing board for national development
in this country?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: The functions of
such a board as the hon. Member appears
to have in mind are already exercised
in large measure by the Empire Market-
ing Board, the Department of Overseas
Trade (as in the British Industries Fair)
and other existing Government organisa-
tions.
Mr. MANDER : Does not the right hon.
Gentleman think that some co-ordination
between all these different bodies is
necessary and advisable ?
Mr. GRAHAM : Yes, co-ordination goes
on every day.
Newspaper Printing Machinery
(Imports).
29. Mr. ALBERY asked the President
of the Board of Trade if he will state
the value of the newspaper printing
machinery imported into this country
during the years 1928, 192:9, and 1930 ?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: The imports of
newspaper printing machinery, as such,
are not separately recorded in the trade
returns of the United Kingdom. The
total declared value of newspaper, letter-
press and lithographic machines and
parts thereof imported into the United
Kingdom during the years 1928, 1929 and
1930 was £714,920, £881,652 and £1,009,696,
respectively, and the total imports of
typesetting machines and parts thereof
during the same years amounted to
£115,870, £123,578 and £167,038, re-
spectively.
COMMONS Written Answers. 22(3
Mr. ALBERY : Can the right hon. Gen-
tleman say approximately where the bulk
of these imports comes from ?
Mr. GRAHAM: Very largely from the
United States and Germany.
Mr. JAMES HUDSON: Is my right
hon. Friend aware that a considerable
part of this machinery has been absorbed
by newspapers engaged in a propaganda
against foreign imports ?
Germany (Trading Agreements).
31. Mr. CHATER asked the President
of the Board of Trade whether he will
obtain particulars from His Majesty's
representatives in Germany concerning
a recent decree of the German Ministry
of Economy declaring null and void all
.'agreements between manufacturers,
wholesalers and retailers as regards the
retail prices for trade-marked articles and
ordering a 10 per cent, cut in the prices
for such articles; and whether he will
inform the House of the result ?
Mr. W. GRAHAM : I have received par-
ticulars of the decree to which my hon.
Friend evidently refers, and am arrang-
ing for a translation to appear in the
Board of Trade Journal.
Russia.
37. Mr. BOOTH BY asked the President
of the Board of Trade whether His
Majesty's Government propose to enter
into negotiations with the Government of
the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics
in order to secure that certain classes of
British goods, such as cured herrings,
shall be imported into Russia in exchange
for the goods which we purchase from
them ?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: No such negotia-
tions are in contemplation. I would,
however, remind the hon. Member that
His Majesty's Government have en-
couraged exports to Russia by guarantee-
ing credits under the. Export Credits
Guarantee Scheme and otherwise. As a
result exports to Russia have very mate-
rially increased during the past year.
Mr. B00THBY: Is it not a fact that
during the last two years the trading
results have been very advantageous to
Russia and very unfavourable to this
country; and, in view of the fact that
the Soviet Government controls imports,
what is there to prevent His Majesty's


196 Oral Answers.
Government entering into direct negotia-
tions with the Soviet Government in
order to secure some practical reciprocal
trading advantage to this country?
Mr. GRAHAM: I have said, in reply to
previous questions on that point, that you
cannot isolate countries in that way and
treat the balance on the lines suggested
by my hon. Friend. As regards this par-
ticular proposal, I fear for reasons which
I cannot give in reply to a supplementary
question, that it is not really practical
politics at the present time.
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Is
is not a fact that exports of herrings to*
Russia are paid for by the Russian
timber which comes into this country ?
Mr. BOOTH BY: There is none.
Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY: Oh,
yes. ,
Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: In t|he
particular circumstances of trade in
Russia, is it not possible to isolate trade
with Russia with regard to imports and
exports even though it is not possible to
do iso with regard to other countries?
Mr. GRAHAM: In reply to the sup-
plementary question of my hon. and gal-
lant Friend, last year 182,000 owts. of
herrings were exported. As regards the
second supplementary question, I fear
that I must adhere to the previous re-
plies, that I do not think you can isolate
international trade in that way.
Lord EUSTACE PERCY: Can the
right hon. Gentleman say why it is
possible to negotiate with a foreign
capitalist Government to reduce imports
but impossible to negotiate with a
Socialist Government to raise a boycott ?
Mr. GRAHAM: In reply to the Noble
Lord, I must say that I do not admit
his contention for a single moment.
Mr. MARLEY: Are we to take it that
this is a direct inducement on the part
of the Opposition for the Government
to enter into trading action ?
39. Sir WILLIAM DAVISON asked the
President of the Board of Trade whether
the Board is aware that the Russian
Soviet Government is preparing to dump
some 30,000 tons of soap on the British
market, which it is proposed to sell at
the price of l£d. per tablet; and what
Oro.i Answers. 188
action the Government intend to take in
the matter?
Mr. GRAHAM: I have seen reports
in the Press that soap is being imported
from Russia and sold at low prices, but
I have no information as to the quanti-
ties it is proposed to import. As regards
the last part of the question I would
refer the hon. Member to the answer
given to the hon. Member for Kingston-
on-Thames (Sir G. Penny) on the 3rd
November.
Sir W. DAVISON: What is the object
of having a Board of Trade at all if it
does not concern itself with matters of
such vital importance both to trade and
to employment ?
Mr. BOOTH BY: On a point- of Order.
I should like to give notice, in view of
the unsatisfactory replies of the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade on this ques-
tion of Russian trade, that I propose to
raise the matter on the Adjournment at
the earliest possible moment.
Statistics (Exports).
41. Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND asked
the President of the Board of Trade what
was the volume of the exports from Ger-
many, France, and Great Britain, re-
spectively, in 1930, expressed in percent-
ages of the volume in 1929 ?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: Eliminating the
effect of price changes, the volume of the
domestic export trade of Germany, in-
cluding deliveries on account of Repara-
tions, was 4.6 per cent, less in 1930 than
in 1929. In the case of the United King-
dom, there was a reduction of 18.1 per
cent. Similar information in respect of
France is not available.
Lord E. PERCY: Are we to under-
stand that the reduction of 18 per cent,
is entirely due to world causes ?
Mr. GRAHAM: I think that it was
overwhelmingly due to world causes.
Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Then can
the right hon. Gentleman tell us why
the reduction in the case of Germany
was only 4 per cent. ?
Mr. GRAHAM: There are innumerable
other considerations to be taken into
account.
10 February 1931


197 Written Answers.
Imported Goods (Labour Conditions).
42. Captain P. MACDONALD asked
the President of the Board of Trade what
steps are being taken to ascertain whether
goods imported into this country are pro-
duced under conditions against which the
British people cannot compete without
lowering their standard of living?
Mr. W. GRAHAM : With regard to the
ascertainment of costs of production
abroad I would refer the hon. and gallant
Member to the reply which I gave on
the 20th January to a question by the
hon. Member for Birkenhead, East (Mr.
Graham White). I would remind him,
however, that the competitive power of
British manufacturers in any particular
instance depends upon other factors as
well as upon wage costs.
Mr. SMITHERS: Can the right hon.
Gentleman say if his attention has been
drawn to some of the sworn statements
as to conditions of labour in Russia?
Mr. MILLS: No name or address.
Finance and Industry.
49. Major THOMAS asked the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer whether he has
yet received the report of the Govern-
ment Committee on Finance and In-
dustry; and whether, in view of the im-
portance of the subject, he will publish
the findings of the committee at the
earliest possible date ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER (Mr. Philip Snowden): V
would refer the hon. and gallant Mem-
ber to the reply which I gave to the
hon. and gallant Member for Bethnal
Green (Major Nathan) on the 20th
January.
Mr. HAMMERSLEY: Can the right
hon. Gentleman say whether the com-
mittee has now completed the taking of
evidence ?
Mr. SNOWDEN : In the reply to which
I have referred, I said that they were
considering their icport.
CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS ACT.
23. Mr. DAY asked the President of
the Board of Trade whether any recent
fresh appointments have been made to
the advisory committee under the Cine-
matograph Films Act?
Written Answers. 22(3
Mr. W. GRAHAM: One-half of the
members of this Committee recently
retired in rotation. To fill the vacancies
the Board of Trade have appointed Mr.
C. M. Woolf, representing film makers,
and Mr. A. B. King, representing film
exhibitors; the remaining vacancies have
been filled by the re-appointment of the
retiring members.
Mr. DAY: Has the right hon. Gentle-
man experienced any difficulty in obtain-
ing nominations for this Committee?
Mr. GRAHAM: No, Sir.
Mr. MANDER : Are any of the present
members associated with American in-
terests ?
Mr. GRAHAM: Not to my knowledge,
but I should require notice if details
were required.
32. Mr. DAY asked the President of
the Board of Trade whether he will state
the number of applications made to his
Department, for the six months ended
to the last convenient date, for exemp-
tion certificates for non-compliance with
the quota conditions as laid down in
the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927 ; and
will he state the number which are at
present under consideration by his
Department ?
Mr. GRAHAM : In addition to the sub-
mission in respect of the last quota year,
concerning which I gave my hon. Friend
information in reply to his question of
27th January, 12 submissions have been
received in respect of the present quota
year from exhibitors who have ceased
during that period to carry on business
at the cinema for which they were
licensed. They are all at present under
consideration.
Mr. DAY: Does that include any
applications at present before the
Department ?
Mr. GRAHAM: My information is that
those are the applications, namely, the
12 since the last quota year ended.
MERCANTILE MARINE (HYGIENE).
27. Dr. MORRIS-JONES asked the
President of the Board of Trade whether
the joint committee set up by the Board
of Trade and the Ministry of Health
HOUSE OP COMMONS


199 Oral Answers.
to inquire into the question of the
hygiene of the mercantile marine has yet
presented its report ?
26. Dr. HASTINGS asked the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade if he has yet
received the report of the Inter-depart-
mental Committee on the Health of the
Mercantile Marine ?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: The joint com-
mittee's advice on the various questions
referred to it from time to time by the
Board of Trade or the Ministry of Health
is submitted to the Departments as its
consideration of each subject is com-
pleted and no general report is pub-
lished. The inquiry into seamen's
mortality statistics is proceeding satis-
factorily, but will necessarily take some
time to complete. The question of crew
spaces has been engaging the special
attention of the Board of Trade, of the
Joint Committee of the Board of Trade
and Ministry of Health, and of the
Shipping Federation. Draft instructions
to surveyors have been placed before
the Merchant Shipping Advisory Com-
mittee, and I hope soon to be able to
make a statement on the subject.
Dr. MORRIS-JONES: Is the right
hon. Gentleman aware that, whereas this
country leads the world in general
sanitation, so far as sanitation on ships
is concerned, we are behind Continental
countries, and will he proceed further
with the investigation ?
Mr. GRAHAM: I could not pronounce
on that comparison in reply to a supple-
mentary question, but we are pursuing
this matter with all possible speed. I
await with great interest the further
statement to which the reply refers.
COMPANIES ACT.
33. Sir JOHN FERGUSON asked the
President of the Board of Trade
whether he will in future require
defaulting public companies to pay a
charge of not less than £2 to cover the
cost of the departmental work needed to
remind such defaulting companies that
they have not obeyed Section 108 of the
Companies Act, 1929?
34. Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE asked
the President of the Board of Trade
whether a fine or fee is exacted from the
200
1,884 public companies which failed to
make the returns required by Section 108
of the Companies Act in order that the
Exchequer may be reimbursed the cost
of staff maintenance and correspondence
incurred to save those companies from
being prosecuted for breaking the law ?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: It is assumed that
the reference is to the copy of the
annual return which has to be filed
with the Registrar under Section 110
of the Companies Act. Under the table
in the Tenth Schedule to the Act a filing
fee of 5s. has to be paid to the Registrar
in all cases when this document is
registered and under Section 379 the
Board of Trade are prohibited from in-
creasing the amount of this fee. I have
no power to Impose a special fee for
unpunctuality or failure to file the docu-
ment, the question of penalty being one
for the Court in the event of a successful
prosecution.
SAFEGUARDING AND IMPORT
DUTIES.
Glove, Cutlery and Gas Mantle
Industries.
36. Captain P. MACDONALD asked
the President of the Board of Trade
what has been the course of employment
and unemployment in the glove, cutlery
and gas mantle industries since 1st
April, 1930, up to the latest available
date?
Mr. W. GRAHAM : As the answer con-
tains a number of figures I will circulate
it in the Official Report.
Captain MACDONALD: Is it not a
fact that unemployment has increased in
these three industries ?
Mr. GRAHAM: That is debatable
apart from the general trade depression,
because the trades, as these figures show,
are really, in the aggregate, very small.
Captain MACDONALD: If the figures
are not very large, may we have them
now ?
Following is the answer:
The following table shows the average
numbers of workpeople employed in the
glove-making, cutlery and gas mantle
industries during the year 1930, so far as
particulars have been received. Informa-
tion is not available as to the numbers
unemployed in these industries.
10 February 1931 Oro.i Answers. 188


202
Written Answers. HOUSE OP COMMONS Written Answers.
22(3
Quarter. Glove-making. Cutlery. Gas Mantles.
Leather Gloves. Fabric Gloves.
1930. First Quarter ... Second Quarter Third Quarter... Avi 9,129 9,049 8,881 erage numbers of 1 959 862 838 Workpeople emplo^ 3,494 3,574 Not yet available ved. 1,648 1,370 1,212
Notes. Tfie particulars in respect of
gloves have been furnished hy the Joint
Industrial Council for the Glove-making
Industry, and are stated to relate to firms
which, in 1924, employed in the leather
glove industry about 88 per cent, of the
cutters and in the fabric glove industry
about 82 per cent, of the cutters.
The cutlery figures have been supplied
by the Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers'
Association and are stated to be in respect
of 41 firms, which are estimated to have
employed in 1924 not more than 40 per
cent, of the persons employed in the whole
industry.
The figures for the gas mantle industry,
supplied by the Trade Association con-
cerned, relate to the average weekly
number of persons employed by firms which
are claimed to represent about 95 per cent,
of the output of the whole industry.
Silk Dresses.
53. Sir J. FERGUSON asked the
Chancellor of the Exchequer if his
attention has been directed to a recent
conviction for a false declaration made in
connection with the importation of silk
dresses from France; and will he give
consideration to the raising of the duty-
payable by private individuals to the
same level as that paid by dressmaking
establishments, which would have the
effect of giving increased employment in
that trade 1
Mr. P. SNOWDEN : I am aware that a
firm of dressmakers was recently fined
for under-declaring the value of imported
dresses. As regards the second part of
the question, I cannot anticipate my
Budget statement.
AFFORESTATION (EMPLOYMENT).
43. Lieut. Commander KENWORTHY
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the
Board of Trade, as representing the
Forestry Commissioners, how many men
are at present employed on afforestation
schemes; and what is the maximum
number it is proposed to employ during
the present year ?
The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY
to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. W. R.
Smith) : The number of persons now
employed by the Forestry Commissioners
excluding 62 forest officers and 108
office staffis 3,305; it is anticipated that
the maximum number that will be
employed this year will be approximately
4,000.
Lieut. Commander KENWORTHY:
Can my hon. Friend say whether, in view
of the heavy unemployment, it is in-
tended to extend the programme in the
near future 1
Mr. SMITH: The programme is being
extended 'as rapidly as possible, but any
big extension is not possible until we are
able to raise the plants, which will take
about three years.
BRITISH ARMY.
Enlistments under Age.
44. Mr. TINKER asked the Secretary
of State for War if he can state the num-
ber of recruits who have joined the Army
during 1929 'and 1930 where application
has been made for their release because
they have joined under military age ; and
will he say how many have been granted
release 1
The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR
(Mr. T. Shaw): I regret I 'am not in a
position to give the information for which
my hon. Friend asks without dispropor-
tionate labour. But during the recruit-
ing years ended 30th September, 1929 and
1930, the numbers of recruits discharged
for having made a misstatement as to
age on 'attestation were 573 and 575
respectively.
Mr. McSHANE: Is my right hon.
Friend considering raising from 17 to 18
the age at which such boys should be ac-
cepted without the consent of their
parents ?


203 Oral Answers. 10 February 1931 Oro.i Answers.
188
Recruiting (Infantry).
60. Major GLYN asked the Secretary
of State for War to what extent the
recent special effort to obtain, recruits
for the infantry of the line has been suc-
cessful ; what is the effective strength of
the infantry ; and what percentage of the
recruits were rejected for medical reasons
during the last three months ?
Mr. SHAW: 3,842 recruits for the
infantry of the line were finally approved
last month compared with 2,391 during
the same month last year. The regimental
strength of the infantry of the line, in-
cluding those in India, on 1st January,
1931, was 96,749. As regards the last part
of the question, information as to the
percentage of recruits rejected on medical
and physical grounds during January is
not yet available, but the-percentage for
all arms of the Regular Army during the
three months ended 31st December, 1930,
was 53.6.
Major GLYN: Can the right hon. Gen-
tleman say what steps he h'as taken to
advertise in the Employment Exchanges
the advantages of joining the services?
Mr. SHAW: I understand that the
Employment Exchanges have recruiting
materials -supplied to them.
Royal Army Medical Corps.
61. Major GLYN asked the Secretary
of State for War what is the present
strength of the Royal Army Medical
Corps officers, non-commissioned officers
and other ranks ; and how far short are
these figures of the authorised establish-
ment ?
Mr. SHAW: I will, with the hon. and
gallant Member's permission, circulate
the figures in the Official Report.
Following are the figures:
Statement showing the present estab-
lishment, strength and deficiency of the
Royal Army Medical Corps (Regular
Army):
Officers :
Establishment 863
Strength ... 739*
Deficiency 124
Other ranks :
Establishment ...... 3,707
Strength ......... 3,658
Deficiency..................49
* This figure includes 57 temporary
commissioned officers and retired officers
re-employed.
Chemical Warfare School, Porton.
62. Mr. WHITE asked the Secretary of
State for War whether proposals are
under consideration for reducing the
establishment of the chemical warfare
school at Porton ?
Mr. SHAW: The chemical warfare
school, which trains officers and non-
commissioned officers as regimental in-
structors in defensive measures against
gas, has become the anti-gas wing of the
small arms school. No reduction of
establishment is contemplated.
Mr. MANDER: Is it not a fact that
we have undertaken not to make use of
chemical warfare ?
Mr. SHAW: I believe that there is a
Treaty of that kind, but from countless
speeches made by peace advocates like
myself it is known that gases are in ex-
istence, and I am certainly not going to
be a party to anything that will prevent
our people from knowing how to guard
against them.
Mr. KIRKWOOD : Is there a Christian
chaplain attached to this school ?
Mr. SHAW: I understand that at all
the Army establishments the men have a
choice of preachers from pretty well
every religion.
Tanks.
63. Sir NAIRNE STEWART SANDE-
MAN asked the Secretary of State for
War what is the average age of the tanks
in the Tank Corps; and how many tanks
of the latest model are in use ?
Mr. SHAW: It would not be in the
public interest to give such information.
Sir N. STEWART SANDEMAN: Are
we to understand that the new model is
in common use in the Tank Corps and
that a great many of the old tanks have
been scrapped ?
Mr. SHAW: I must ask the hon. Mem-
ber kindly to accept the answer I have
given, that it is not in the public interest
to give information of this character.
Personnel (Wastage).
64. Mr. AYLES asked the Secretary of
State for War the annual wastage of men
in the Army through retirement, sick-
ness, death, and other causes, for the
years 1926, 1927, 1928, 1929, and 1930;
and what percentage this bears to the
total strength?


206 Written Answers.
Mr. SHAW: My hon. Friend will find
detailed information on this subject for
the years ended 30th September, 1926-
1929 in Table 6 (pages 28 to 31) of the
General Annual Report on the British
Army for 1929. Similar information for
the year ended 30th September, 1930 will
appear in the General Annual Report
for 1930, which I hope to present to the
House in the course of a few weeks.
. Mr. AYLES : Will the right hon. Gen-
tleman kindly send me a copy of the
volume to which he refers ?
Mr. SHAW: I cannot guarantee to
send copies of books when they can be
found in the Library of the House.
Pensions.
65. Mr. HOFFMAN asked the Secre-
tary of State for War if he will consider
the desirability of granting to men in
receipt of pension under Article 1,163 of
the Royal Warrant of 1914, the age in-
creases in pension at 55 and 65 granted
to men in receipt of service pension
awarded after the issue of Army Order
325 of 1919?
The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the
WAR OFFICE (Mr. Sanders): Pensions
under Article 1,163 of the Royal
Warrant of 1914 are only given to
soldiers who enlisted while the 1914 code
was still in force and who prove to be
ineligible for any award on the Great
War or post-War scale. Such men, who
would otherwise be ineligible for any
pension, are given the benefit of the 1914
code, but I regret that I am unable to
grant them in addition the increases for
age which are only permissible under
the later codes.
FISHING INDUSTRY (INQUIRY).
45. Mr. BOOTH BY asked the Prime
Minister when the report of the com-
mittee which is inquiring into the fish-
ing industry will be completed; and
whether it will be published ?
The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay
MacDonald): I understand that the com-
mittee will complete the taking of oral
evidence at their meeting to be held on
the 13th instant, and that they are now
engaged in the preparation of their
report.
Written Answers. 22(3
DEVELOPMENT SCHEMES (LOAN).
48. Mrj. MANDER asked the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer whether the Gov-
ernment is prepared to consider the rais-
ing of a development loan to be used for
the execution of plans already prepared
and worked out ?
Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I would refer the
hon. Member to the statement I made on
the Motion for the Adjournment of the
House on Thursday last.
Mr. MANDER: Am I to understand
that the right hon. Gentleman would not
be opposed to a loan for such a purpose
as is outlined in the question ?
Mr. SNOWDEN: I said all that I
think needs to be said in that statement,
and the hon. Member must draw his own
conclusion.
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.
New Buildings, Whitehall.
50. Mr. DOUGLAS HACKING asked
the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether
he will instruct the Howard Frank Com-
mittee to include the proposals for new
Government buildings in Whitehall in
their investigations and to report upon
their desirability ?
Mr. P. SNOWDEN: The Committee
has concluded its investigations.
Mr. HACKING: Will the right hon.
Gentleman consider setting up some
other form of inquiry before a definite
decision is taken to spend this huge sum
of money ?
Mr. SNOWDEN: It was decided some
time ago that we should proceed with
this work, and I believe my right hon.
Friend the First Commissioner of Works
has already introduced a Bill for this
purpose.
Captain MACDONALD: Is the neces-
sity for these buildings so urgent that
the Government cannot delay?
Government Buildings, Edinburgh.
75. Mr. ERNEST BROWN asked the
First Commissioner of Works if he has
any statement to make with regard to
the proposed changes in public buildings
in Edinburgh; and, if so, whether he can
state the estimated cost of those changes ?
HOUSE OP COMMONS


207 Oral Answers. 10 February 1931 Oro.i Answers.
188
Mr. PALING: Negotiations are at
present proceeding with the Edinburgh
Town Council for the acquisition of a
site for the sheriff court house, but I
am not yet in a position to state the cost
involved. When I am in such a posi-
tion, I will let the hon. Member know.
Mr. E. BROWN : Will the hon. Member
indicate to his right hon. Friend that
there is a considerable body of opinion
which hopes that the sheriff court will
not be moved and that Lord Clyde will
withdraw his opposition to the erection
of the national library on this site?
Mr. MATHERS: Will the hon. Member
indicate to the First Commissioner of
Works that there is a body of opinion
which believes that the First Commis-
sioner is responsible to some extent for
forcing the erection of the library on the
George IV Bridge site, and will he take
steps to remove that impression from
the public mind ?
Mr. HARDIE: Since the people of
Edinburgh cannot agree, will the right
hon. Gentleman consider the removal of
the libary to Glasgow ?
Mr. DUNCAN MILLAR: Will the
First Commissioner of Works give an
undertaking that no final decision will
be arrived at until a fuller expression of
opinion has been received from the
citizens of Edinburgh?
Mr. PALING: I will convey that re-
quest to my right hon. Friend.
TAXATION.
51. Mr. WHITE asked the Chancellor
of the Exchequer what, at the latest date
for which figures are available, was the
aggregate annual burden per head of
national and local taxes in Great Britain,
and in France, Germany, Italy, Holland,
and the United States of America, respec-
tively ?
Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I regret that the
information is not available in the form
in which the hon. Member requires it.
SHIPPING (SUBSIDY).
52. Mr. AYLES asked the Chancellor
of the Exchequer if any subsidies out of
public funds are paid to any shipping
companies for any purpose; and, if so,
whether he can state the amount and for
what purpoise, and through what Depart-
ments of State ?
Mr. P. SNOWDEN: A sum of £29,000
is provided in the Scottish Office Vote
this year as a subsidy towards the cost
of the Hebridean Steamer Services. This
is the only payment out of public funds
that can be described as a shipping sub-
sidy.
Mr. BR0CKWAY: Can the right hon.
Gentleman say whether a condition is
attached to these subsidies by which a
living wage must be paid to the workers
in the industry ?
Mr. SNOWDEN : I think the hon. Mem-
ber had better address that question to
the Secretary of State for Scotland.
SURPLUS GOVERNMENT PROPERTY
(DISPOSAL).
54. Brigadier General CLIFTON
BROWN asked the Chancellor of the
Exchequer what has been the cost to the
Treasury of the Committee he set up
over a year ago to report on the sale of
surplus Government property; and when
is it expected to report ?
Mr. P. SNOWDEN: The expenditure,
inclusive of printing, etc., charges, of
the Committee on Government Properties
amounts to approximately £25. The Com-
mittee reported on the 5th February.
Brigadier-General BROWN: Can the
right hon. Gentleman say what is the
cause of the delay on the part of the
committee in reporting ? Fourteen
months have elapsed.
Mr. SNOWDEN: I do not know that
there has been any undue delay. There
was a great deal of work to be done,
and it has necessitated1 the expenditure
of a great deal of time.
COMMODITY PRICES.
55. Mr. B00THBY asked the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer whether he pro-
poses to take any action designed to
check the fall in commodity prices?
Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I fear that I
cannot add anything to the reply which
I gave to the hon. and gallant Member


210 Written Answers.
[Mr. Snowden.]
for Bethnal Green, North-East (Major
Nathan) on the 27 th November last, to
which I referred the hon. Member on the
2nd December.
Mr. BOOTH BY: Is it not a fact that
so long ago as March, 1922, an inter-
national conference recommended inter-
national action to regulate and econo-
mise the use of gold, and does the right
hon. Gentleman propose to take steps
to summon an international conference
to consider this question, which is a
matter of international. importance ?
Mr. SNOWDEN: Yes, and I am aware
of the fact that since 1922 a Tory Govern-
ment has been in office for six years.
Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Is the
Chancellor of the Exchequer aware that
the withdrawal of gold during the past
year has been greater than in any pre-
vious year ?
Mr. BOOTHBY: Is it not a fact that
the fall in prices has been twice as great
during the past 18 months as in any
previous period ?
SILVER COINAGE.
56. Sir W. DAVISON asked the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer whether he is
aware of many complaints from persons
making use of shilling-in-the-slot gas
meters for lighting and heating of the
serious shortage of shillings, whereby
they are inconvenienced in obtaining a
regular supply of gas; and whether a
larger supply of these coins can be issued
to the banks for distribution to the
public ?
Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I would refer the
hon. Member to the reply which I gave
on the 22nd January to the hon. and
gallant Member for East Eulham (Sir K.
Vaughan-Morgan).
Sir W. DAVISON : Does the right hon.
Gentleman not think that it would be
a profitable transaction for the State at
the present time, in view o:f the very
low price of silver, to mint an additional
number of shillings when there is such
a public demand for them?
Mr. SNOWDEN: As I stated last
week, the Mint are taking this matter
into consideration.
Written Answers. 22(3
MISCELLANEOUS REVENUE.
57. Captain P. MACDONALD asked
the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether
any funds have been left over as a
residue of War-time financial opera-
tions ; and are such resources available
for Budget purposes ?
Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I would refer the
hon. Member to the summarised state-
ment on page 25 of Finance Accounts for
1929-30 and to the detailed statements
on pages 32 and 33, from which he will
see that there are numerous War-time
transactions not yet completely liqui-
dated, the receipts from which are
included in the Budget as Miscellaneous
Revenue. Apart from Reparations and
the Clearing Office, Enemy Debts, the
amounts are relatively small.
Captain MACDONALD: Can the right
hon. Gentleman say what is the amount ?
Mr. SNOWDEN: It is reckoned that
out of a sum of £26,000,000, roughly,
about £23,000,000 comes from the Repara-
tions and Enemy Debts (Clearing Office).
COMMISSIONS AND COMMITTEES.
58. Mr. ALBERY asked the Financial
Secretary to the Treasury how many
departmental committees and Royal
Commissions have been set up by the
present Government, and how many have
submitted a report ?
The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the
TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence):
The appointment of 72 commissions and
committees has been announced since the
present Government took office. Four-
teen of these are standing bodies. Of
the remainder 18 have reported.
Major COLVILLE: Can the hon. Mem-
ber say how many of these reports have
been acted upon ? Have they all shared
the fate of the Simon Commission
report ?
CONTINENTAL ARMIES.
50. Major GLYN asked the Secretary
of State for War what is the established
peace strength of the armies of France,
Italy, Poland, Yugoslavia, and Rumania;
what reserves have each of these
countries; and how do these figures com-
pare with February, 1915.
HOUSE OP COMMONS


211 Oral Answers. 10 February 1931 Oro.i Answers. 188
Mr. SHAW: I would refer the hon.
and gallant Member to the information
published in the League of Na oions
Armaments Year Book. As regards
1915, I regret that figures are not avail-
able.
Major GLYN: Will the right hon.
Gentleman send me a copy of the book ?
Mr.. SHAW: I think the hon. and
gallant Member will find one in the
Library.
Major GLYN: Cannot I have one sent
to me in the ordinary way ? I understood
that when right hon. Members refer to
books of reference of that kind, a copy
is usually sent.
Mr. SHAW: I do not think that I can
guarantee to send to hon. Members
copies of the books to which I refer them,
especially when a copy is in the Library.
Major HARVEY: Is the right hon.
Gentleman a member of the League of
Nations Union?
Mr. SHAW: Yes, Sir.
PO'S'T OFFICE (WIRES AND CABLES).
67. Mr.. DAY asked the Postmaster-
General the approximate mileage of over-
head telephone and telegraph wires that
are at present in use by the Post Office;
and can he give the figures of the sub-
stitution of the same by underground
cables that has taken place in the 12
months ended to the last convenient
date?
The ASSISTANT POSTMASTER-
GENERAL (Mr. Viant): Approximately
1,300,000 miles of overhead wires are at
present in use ; and 27,500 miles of over-
head wires were recovered during the year
ended 30th (September last. The total
mileage of underground wires is 7,600,000.
Mr. DAY: In view of the unemploy-
ment which exists, could not this work
be expedited ?
COTTON INDUSTRY (DISPUTE).
70. Mr. HAMMERSLEY asked the
Minister of Labour whether she will make
it a condition of Government participa-
tion in negotiations connected with the
dispute in the cotton trade that all
official bodies representing employers and
No. 55
212
employed shall be armed with full
authority to negotiate on all questions
affecting the reorganisation of the
industry ?
The MINISTER of LABOUR (Miss
Bondfield): No, Sir. The Government
must keep a free hand to take any action
which seems likely to promote a settle-
ment.
Mr. HAMMERSLEY: Can we be sure
that the right hon. Lady appreciates the
fact that there are many matters
to investigate other than the question of
more looms per weaver, and would it not
be futile to enter into these negotiations
when the people with whom the Govern-
ment intend to negotiate are not in a
position to deliver the goods ?
Mr. SANDHAM : Is the right hon. Lady
aware of the fact that a very large
majority ballot vote in Lancashire against
negotiation makes it absolutely impera-
tive for the Government to move on the
lines of a national control board ?
Mr. WISE: May I ask whether it is
not the case that the workers' repre-
sentatives in these negotiations have
been pressing for reorganisation of the
industry as an alternative to wage:
reduction ?
IRAQ (PIPE LINE).
72. Mr. HORE-BELISHA asked the
Under-Secretary of State' for the Colonies
whether he can now make a statement
regarding the proposed Iraq pipe-line ?
The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE
for the COLONIES (Dr. Drummond
Shiels) : Negotiations are still in progress
between the Iraq Petroleum Company
and the Government of Iraq, and I am
not in a position to say whether any
agreement has been reached. The com-
pany hats negotiated a formal agreement
with the Governments of Palestine and
Trans-Jordan in regard to the conditions
on which it will be allowed to- construct
a pipe-line through those territories, but
the decision as to construction must
obviously depend upon the outcome of
the negotiations with Iraq.
Mr. HORE-BELISHA : What does the
Under-Secretary mean by saying that he
is not in a position to say whether any
agreement has been reached ? Is it not:
B


214 Written Answers.
'[Mr. Hore-Belisha.]
a matter of interest to His Majesty's
Government that ail agreement should
be reached on certain definite lines ?
Dr. SHI ELS : What I meant was that
so far as I know an agreement has not
been reached, as negotiatons are still in
progress.
Mr. HORE-BELISiHA: Is the hon.
Member watching the situation closely
from the point of view of our Imperial
interests ?
Dr. SHI ELS: The Department with
which I am associated has always in mind
the interests of the Empire.
Mr. HARDIE : Have the Government
any financial commitments in connection
with this pipe-line ?
Dr. SHI ELS: No, Sir.
EARL, HAIG iSTATTJE.
73. Lieut.-Colonel MOORE asked the
First Commissioner of Works if he will
undertake that the amended model of the
Earl Haig statue 'will not be adopted until
Lady Haig, the British Legion, and the
Houses of Parliament have been con-
sulted and have signified their approval ?
Mr. PALING (Lord of the Treasury):
I would refer the hon. and .gallant Mem-
ber to the reply which was given in this
House on the 4th instant, to the hon.
Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Smithiers).
Lieut.-Colonel MOORE: Will the hon.
Member represent, to his right hon. Friend
that the confidence of the people of this
country in regard to the judgment of the
assessors has been severely shaken, while
the people mentioned in the question are
the best qualified to give an expert judg-
ment ?
Mr. SMITHERS: On a point of Order.
In the answer that has been given refer-
ence is made to a question which I put
upon this subject. May I ask a supple-
mentary question upon that ?
Mr. SPEAKER : I do not think the hon.
Member is entitled to ask a supple-
mentary question on an answer given on
a previous day.
Written Answers. 22(3
BOTANIC GARDENS.
74. Lieut.-Colonel MOORE asked the
First Commissioner of Works if he can
yet indicate what is to he the future of
the Botanic Gardens when the Cfcown
lease falls in early in 19321
Mr. PALING: I would refer the hon.
and gallant Member to the reply to a
similar question on the 11th November
]ast. The matter is still under con-
sideration.
Lieut-Colonel MOORE: Is this House
to assume that within one year of this
very valuable and historic property fall-
ing in the Government have absolutely
no idea in their heads as to what use it
is going to be put?
Mr. PALING : The reply says that the
matter is under consideration.
CANADA (DEPORTATIONS).
19. Mr. HORE-BELISHA asked the
Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs
whether any other Dominions besides
Canada has deported British subjects on
the ground that they had become, or were
likely to become, a public charge ; and, if
so, will he give the figures?
Mr. THOMAS: The Commonwealth
Immigration Act 'authorises the deporta-
tion of persons not born in Australia
who, within three ye'ars after arrival in
Australia, have become inmates of a
public charitable institution, but I under-
stand th'at deportation under this provi-
sion has been in practice mainly confined
to individuals suffering from a mental or
physical disease which renders them in-
capable of employment. I have no in-
formation as to the number of cases in
which deportation under this provision
has taken place in recent years, but I
have no reason to think that it is con-
siderable. Apart from this the answer to
the hon. Member's question is in the
negative.
Mr. HORE-BELISHA: Does His
Majesty's Government take any reciprocal
action in similar circumstances ?
Mr. THOMAS: No. We set a good
example to all the other Governments.
20. Mr. HORE-BELISHA asked the
Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs
whether his attention has been called to
HOUSE OP COMMONS


216 Oral Answers.
the action of the Canadian Government
in deporting from Canada a number of
British persons, some of whom had
children born in that Dominion; whether
he will give the full facts and figures in
relation to this matter; and whether any
representations have been made to the
Canadian Government 1
Mr. THOMAS: X presume that the
hon. Member refers to the recent deporta-
tion from Canada of 107 British sub-
jects on the S.S. Ascania." I find on
inquiry that of these 96 had become
public charges^ nine had been convicted,
and one was a tubercular subject. In
the remaining case, no particulars have
yet been received. Of the whole number,
five .were Canadian-born children, 64'
were assisted migrants and 38 had pro-
ceeded to Canada without assistance. I
understand that all these persons were
liable to deportation under the Canadian
Immigration Law,, with the exception of
the five children who were born in the
Dominion. These )cthildren, like all
Canadian-born children, were not liable
to deportation, but, being of tender
years, accompanied their parents back
to this country. In reply to the last
part of the hon. Member's question I
have this subject under consideration.
Mr. H 0 RE-BE LtSHA: Seeing that
these British subjects, who were departed
from Canada, have been guilty of no
crime or irregularity whatsoever, will
representations be made to the Canadian
Government that this is hardly an evi-
dence of Imperial unity ?
Mr. T. WILLIAMS : Has my right hon.
Friend any power to reciprocate, and, if
so, will he consider the advisability of
deporting, say, Lord Beaverbrook ?
Business of the House. 216
Mr. THOMAS: In a case of that kind
much would depend upon whether the
House as a whole felt that such action
was in the public interest.
Mr. MUGGERIDGE: May I ask
whether one of the cases was not that of
a woman who had been married in
Canada, who was taken away from her
children and husband, was landed at
Liverpool without a penny piece in her
pocket, .and was subjected to all sorts
of indignities on the way 1
Mr. THOMAS: I have no knowledge
of that ease. Much as one will deplore
these facts, it would Be equally a mis-
fake for me to condemn wholesale with-
out the facts being fully known. I must
not be taken as accepting my hon.
Friend's definition.
Mr. HORE-BELISHA: What arrange-
ments are the Government making for
these people, seeing that they are not
eligible for unemployment benefit?
Mr. THOMAS: The hon. Gentleman
must be aware that we could not intro-
duce a special Act of Parliament because'
of this abnormal situation, but these
facts clearly demonstrate the difficulty,
that normally each year there are.
thousands going to our Dominions, but
you see this frustrated by many return-
ing.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Motion made, and Question put,
" That the Proceedings on the China In-
demnity (Application) Bill be exempted, at
this day's Sitting, from the provisions of
the Standing Order (Sittings of the
House)."[The Prime Minister.]
The House divided: Ayes, 266;
Noes, 143.
10 February 1931
Division No. 136.]
Adamsan, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.
Alpass, J. H.
Arnott, John
Aske, Sir Robert
Attlee, Clement Richard
Ayles, Walter
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Barnes, Alfred John
Barr, James
Batey, Joseph
Bellamy, Albert
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South)
Benson, G.
AYES.
Blinded, James
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Broad, Francis Alfred
Brockway, A. Fenner
Bromfield, William
Bromley, J.
Brooke, W.
Brothers, M.
Brown, Ernest (Lelthi
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)
Buchanan, G.
Burgess, F. G.
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Cameron, A. G.
Cape, Thomas
Carter, W. (St. Pancraa, S.W.)
Charleton, H. C.
[3.47 p.m.
Chater, Daniel
Cluse, W. S.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Compton, Joseph
Cove, William G.
Cripps, Sir Stafford
Daggar, George
Dallas, George
Dalton, Hugh
Davles, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Day, Harry
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Dukes, C.
Duncan, Charles
Ede, James Chuter
Edmunds, J. E.
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Vo. 55


217 Business of the Rouse. HOUSE OF COMMONS Business of the Rouse. 218
Egan, W. H.
Elmley, Viscount
Foot, Isaac
Forgan, Dr. Robert
Freeman, Peter
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
Gibblns, Joseph
Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley)
Gill, T. H.
Gillett, George M.
Glassey, A. E.
Gossling, A. G.
Gould, F.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Granville, E.
Gray, Milner
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne).
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Groves, Thomas E.
Grundy, Thomas W.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Hall, J. H. (Whftechapel)
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Hardie, George D.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Haycock, A. W.
Hayday, Arthur
Hayes, John Henry
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)
Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)
Herriotts, J.
Hirst, G. H. (York, W. R.,Wentworth)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Hoffman, P. C.
Hopkln, Daniel
Hore-Bellsha, Leslie
Horrabln, J. F.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfleld)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Hutchison, MaJ.-Gen. Sir R.
Isaacs, George
Jenkins, Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Jcwett. Rt. Hon. F. W.
Jowltt, Sir W. A. (Preston)
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Klnley, J.
Klrkwood, D.
Knight, Holford
Lanq, Gordon
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Lathan, G.
Law, Albert (Bolton)
Law, A. (Rossendale)
Lawrence, Susan
Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybrldge)
Lawson, John James
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Leach, W.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Lees, J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Logan, David Gilbert
Longbottom, A. W.
Longdcn, F.
Lunn, William
Macdonald. Gordon (Ince)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
McElwee, A.
McEntee, V. L.
McKlnlay, A.
MacLaren, Andrew
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
MacNeill-Weir, L.
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
McShane, John James
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Mansfield, W.
Marcus, M.
Markham, S. F.
Marley, J.
Marshall, Fred
Mathers, George
Matters, L. W.
Maxton, James
Melville, Sir James
Messer, Fred
Mlddleton, G.
Millar, J. D.
Mills, J. E.
Montague, Frederick
Morley, Ralph
Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Mort, D. L.
Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Muff, G.
Muggerldge, H. T.
Murnln, Hugh
Naylor, T. E.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Noel Baker, P. J.
Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)
Oldfield, J. R.
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)
Palln, John Henry
Palmer, E. T.
Parkinson, John Allen (Wlgan)
Perry, S. F.
Peters, Dr. Sidney John
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Picton-Turbervlll. Edith
Pole, Major D. G.
Potts, John S.
Price, M. P.
Pybus, Percy John
Ramsay. T. B. Wilson
Rathbone, Eleanor
Raynes, W. R.
Richards, R.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Romeril, H. G.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Rothschild, J. de
Rowson, Guy
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Sanders, W. S.
Sandhani, E.
Sawyer, G. F.
Scott, James
Scrymgeour, E.
Scurr, John
Sexton, Sir James
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Shield, George William
Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Shlllaker, J. F.
Shinwell, E.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Simmons, C. J.
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Kelghley)
Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)
Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Sneil, Harry
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Sorensen, R.
Stamford, Thomas W.
Stephen, Campbell
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Sullivan, J.
Sutton, J. E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Thurtle, Ernest
Tinker, John Joseph
Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J.
Townend, A. E.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Vaughan, David
Viant, S. P.
Walker, J.
Wallace, H. W.
Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor
Watkins, F. C.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh, James (Paisley)
West, F. R.
Westwood, Joseph
White, H. G.
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllffe)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Wlnterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Wise, E. F
Wood, Major McKenzle (Banff)
Young, R. S. (Islington, North)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.-
Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr.
Paling.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel
Albery, Irving James
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)
Balnlel, Lord
Beaumont, M. W.
Bellafrs, Commander Carlyon
Betterton, Sir Henry B.
NOES.
Bird, Ernest Roy
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.
Boyce, Leslie
Braithwalte, Major A. N.
Brass, Captain Sir William
Briscoe. Richard George
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'thTd., Hexham)
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Bullock, Captain Malcolm
Burton, Colonel H. W.
Butler, R. A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Campbell, E. T.
Castle Stewart, Earl of
Cautley, Sir Henry S.


219 Written Answers.
10 February 1931
Written Answers. 220
Cayzer, Ma). Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Chapman, Sir S.
Christie, J. A.
Clydesdale, Marquess of
Cohen, Major J. Brunei
Colman, N. C. D.
Colvllle, Major D. J.
Cranborne, Viscount
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Crookshank,cpt.H.(LIndsey,Gainsbro)
Dalkeith, Earl of
Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
Eden, Captain Anthony
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.)
Everard, W. Lindsay
Fade, Sir Bertram G.
Ferguson, Sir John
Flson, F. G. Clavering
Ford, Sir P. J.
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Hall, Lleut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwlch)
Hamilton, Sir George (llford)
Hammersley, S. S.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Hasiam, Henry C.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Hurd, Percy A.
Knox, Sir Alfred
Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)
Lelghton, Major B. E. P.
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey
McConnell, Sir Joseph
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Margesson, Captain H. D.
Marjorlbanks, Edward
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Mitchell.Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Muirhead, A. J.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
O'Neill, Sir H.
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Penny, Sir George
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Purbrick, R.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Reid, David D. (County Down)
Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Salmon, Major I.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Savery, S. S.
Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Skelton, A. N.
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallarn)
Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Smlth-Carington, Neville W.
Smithers, Waldron
Somerset, Thomas
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.
Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Tinne, J. A.
Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Todd, Capt. A. J.
Train, J.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Wardlaw-Mline, J. S.
Warrender, Sir Victor
Wayland, Sir William A.
Wells, Sydney R.
Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Womersley, W J.
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Klngsley
Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain
Euan Wallace.
METROPOLITAN POLICE (STAFF
SUPERANNUATION AND POLICE
FUND) BILL.
Reported, without Amendment, from
Standing Committee B.
Report to lie upon, the Table, and to
be printed.
Minutes of the Proceedings of the
Standing Committee to be printed.
, Bill, not amended (in the Standing
Committee), to be taken into considera-
tion upon Thursday.
WRITTEN ANSWERS.
HOUSE OF COMMONS (REFRESH-
MENT DEPARTMENT).
Duchess of ATHOLL asked the hon.
Member for the Gorton Division, as
Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, if
Danish or other imported eggs have been
supplied to the House of Commons since
1st September, 1930?
Mr. COMPTON: I can assure the
Noble Lady that no Danish or other im-
ported eggs have been supplied to the
Refreshment Department of this House
for many years. The only eggs used are
English National Mark.
RIVERS POLLUTION PREVENTION,
SCOTLAND.
Mr. JAMES WELSH asked the Secre-
tary of iState for Scotland how often
meetings of the Scottish Rivers Pollu-
tion Committee are held; what was the
date of the last meeting; and if he is
satisfied with the progress that is being
made with the inquiry ?
Mr. W. ADAMSON: The meetings of
the .Scottish Advisory Committee on
Rivers Pollution Prevention are not held
at stated intervals. Arrangements have
recently been made which, it is hoped,
will enable the committee to proceed
more rapidly with its work in the future.
I may add that the first report of the
committee, dealing with the River Tweed
and its tributaries, will shortly be issued,
while the report on the River Esk (Mid-
lothian) is in course of preparation.


221 Written Answers.
BRITISH SETTLEMENT, YPRES.
Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE asked the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if
he proposes to take any action, and, if
so, what, to convey the thanks of the
British nation to the Belgian Govern-
ment for the passing of the legislation
granting legal status to the British settle-
ment at Ypres ?
Mr. DALTON: His Majesty's Ambas-
sador at Brussels was instructed on 30th
December last to convey to the Belgian
Minister of Justice His Majesty's Gov-
ernment's warm appreciation of the
Belgian Government's generous action in
this matter.
ROYAL NAVY.
Battleships and Baltic Cruisers
(Modernisation).
Liieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty
which of the battleships and battle
cruisers on the Navy List, other than
His Majesty's Ships Rodney," Nel-
son," and Hood," have been modern-
ised ; what have been the main alterations
effected; and what was the total
approximate cost ?
Mr. ALEXANDER: Since 1918, nine
battleships of the Queen Elizabeth"
and Royal Sovereign classes, and the
battle cruisers Renown" and Re-
pulse," have been modernised and the
" Barham is now in hand. The main
alterations comprise addition of bulges,
increase in anti-aircraft armament in
some cases, improvements to bridges and
tops, and improvements to ventilation
and accommodation. Additional armour
protection has been fitted in Renown "
and Repulse." The estimated total
cost of these items of modernisation, in-
cluding Barham," is approximately
£2,870,000.
Dockyards (Rates of Pay).
Mr. MARKHAM asked the First Lord
of the Admiralty what were the average
weekly rates of pay of men employed in
the Royal Dockyards during May, 1929,
January, 1930, and January, 1931 ?
Mr. ALEXANDER : The average weekly
rates of pay of men employed in the ship-
building and ship repairing departments
(Vote 8) of the Royal Dockyards at home
Written Answers. 22(3
for the months stated in the question
were as follow:
£ s. d.
May, 1929 ...... 3 3 2
January, 1930 ...... 3 0 6
January, 1931 ...... 2 19 5
This decrease is due mainly to the cur-
tailment of overtime and piecework as
agreed between the trade unions and the
Admiralty.
Chatham Dockyard.
Mr. MARKHAM asked the First Lord
of the Admiralty what were the numbers
of workmen discharged on reduction from
the Vote 8 departments of Chatham
Dockyard during the years 1924 to 1930,
inclusive ?
Mr. ALEXANDER: The required num-
bers are :
1924 2
1925 11
1926 492
1927 1,219
1928 422
1929 166
1930 66
Mr. MARKlHAiM asked the First Lord
of the Admiralty what is the present
valuation of Chatham Dockyard; and
what amount Was contributed to local
rates during the year 1929-30 ?
Mr. PET-HICK LAWRENCE: The
present valuation of this, dockyard is
£24,021. The corresponding contribution
to local rates for the half year ended
31st March, 1930, was £7,656, but the
contribution for the full year ended 31st
March, 1930, Was £28,548.
FIGHTING SERVICES.
Flour Supply.
Viscountess ASTOR asked (1) the
Secretary of State for War approxi-
mately how much flour was used for the
forces situated in Britain during the six
months aJfter harvest in 1929 and 1928,
respectively;
(2) the Under-Secretary of State for
Air approximately how much flour was
used for the forces situated in Britain
during the six months after harvest in
1929 and 1928, respectively?
HOUSE OP COMMONS


219 Written Answers. 10 February 1931 Written Answers. 224
Mr. SHAW: The quantities of flour
used by the Army and the Royal Air
Force at home during the periods off six
months commencing October, 1929, and
October, 1928, are estimated at about
5,300 tons and 5,500 tons, respectively.
Meat Supply.
Viscountess ASTOR asked (1) the
Secretary of State, for War how much
home-fed beef was supplied to the forces
situated in Britain during the months of
October to March for the past two years;
(2) the Under-Secretary of State for
Air how much home^fed beef was sup-
plied to the forces situated in Britain
during the months of October to March
for the past two years?
Mr. SHAW: With the exception of
a very small quantify of fresh meat for
hospitals, imported meat only, prac-
tically all of Dominion origin, was sup-
plied to the Army and the Royal Air
Force in Great Britain during the periods
in question.
Territorial Artillery (Dress).
Colonel CLIFTON BROWN asked the
Secretary of State for War if it is pro-
posed to substitute waist belts for
bandoliers in the dress of Territorial
artillery; and, if so, when the change
will be effected ?
Mr. SHAW: Yes, Sir; it is proposed to
make the change during the present year.
TRADE AND COMMERCE.
China and India.
Earl CASTLE STEWART asked the
President of the Board of Trade whether
he can give any information which will
show the value and volume of our trade
with China and with India in each of the
years 1927, 1928, 1929 and 1930, as com-
pared with the average value and volume
of a representative number of preceding
years ?
Mr. W. GRAHAM : I am unable to state
the volume of our trade with China and
India. The following table shows the
total declared value of merchandise
imported into and exported from the
United Kingdom and registered as con-
signed from and to China, Hong Kong
and British India, respectively, during
the undermentioned periods.
Exports.
Countries of consignment. Year. Total Imports. Produce and manufacture of the United KiDgdom. Imported Merchandise.
China (exclusive of Hong Kong, Macao and leased territories). 1923-1925 (average). 1927 1928 1929 1930 £'000 13,175 12,123 11,974 12,157 9,914 £'000 17,871 9,690 15,724 14,029 8,572 £'000 179 120 135 117 86
Hong Kong 1923-1925 (average). 1927 1928 1929 1930 800 477 481 489 423 6,770 4,910 5,472 6,162 4,356 111 91 98 114 95
British India ; .. 1923-1925 (average). 1927 1928 1929 1930 75,307 65,840 64,473 62,845 51,058 87,624 85,045 83,900 78,227 52,944 1,132 1,292 1,168 1,145 1,314
Notes.(a) The above figures include, in respect of the first three months of 1923, the trade
of that part of Ireland which now constitutes the Irish Free State, and the figures for China
include, from the 1st October, 1930, the trade of the United Kingdom with Wei-hai-Wei. These
considerations do not materially affect the comparability of the figures.
(b) The figures for 1.930 are provisional.


226 Written Answers.
Earl CASTLE STEWART asked the
President of the Board of Trade whether
he can give any figures which would
show the value and volume of the total
foreign trade of China and of India for
the years 1927, 1928, 1929 and 1930, as
compared with the average value and
Written Answers. 22(3
volume for a representative number of
preceding years ?
Mr. GRAHAM : I am unable to state the
volume of the foreign trade of China
and India, but the following table
shows:
HOUSE OP COMMONS
The Yalue of Merchandise imported into and exported from British India (by Sea) and
China for the undermentioned periods.
Years. British India (by Sea). China.
Imports. Exports. Imports. Exports.
Indian Produce. Foreign Produce. Chinese j Foreign Produce. | Produce.
Average 1923 to 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 Jan. to Nov. £'000. 175,333 193,265 193,845 193,342 135,956 £'000. 257,837 238,864 247,980 241,903 177,079 £ 000. 8,670 7,198 6,491 5,630 3,763 £'000. 175,474 145,680 176,774 169,842 N £'000. 135,581 129,420 144,831 134,631 ot availabi £'000. 3,600 2,973 2,050 2,060 e.
Notes.(1) British India. Conversions of rupees to £ sterling have been made at the average
annual rates of exchange for the years 1923 to 1926 and at the official par of exchange, 18 pence
to the rupee, for subsequent years.
(2) Chins,. Conversions to £ sterling have been made at the average annual rate of exchange
as published by the Chinese Maritime Customs.
German Salt.
Mr. CRMS BY-GO RE asked the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade what was
the total tonnage and declared value
of -crushed rock salt imported from Ger-
many into the United Kingdom in the
year 1930; whether (he is aware that this
commodity contains insoluble matter as
an impurirty, but is being sold as pure
salt in competition with British brine
salt; and what are the current prices
of this German salt and British brine
salt, respectively"?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: I regret that I
have no information respecting the
quantity or value of .crushed rock salt
imported into the United Kingdom from
Germany during 1930, as this commodity
is not separately recorded in the trade
returns of this country or of Germany.
With regard to the second part of the
question, I would refer the right hon.
Gentleman to the reply given by the
Minister of Health to the hon. and
gallant Member for Tiverton (Lieut.
Colonel Acland-Troyte) on 5th February.
I have no information as to the current
prices of this German salt or British
brine salt.
Bankruptcies.
Duchess of ATHOLL asked the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade the number
of bankruptcies of estates formerly of
the value of £1,000 and upwards during
the five years prior to 1914, and the last
similar period for which figures are
available ?
Mr. W. GRAHAM: The number of
bankruptcies finally wound up in which
the value of the estates amounted to
£1,000 and upwards was 650 during the
years 1909 to 1913 inclusive, and 873
during the years 1925 to 1929 inclusive.
Coke (Import, Switzerland).
Viscountess ASTOR asked the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade the amount
of the export of coke from this country
to Switzerland for each of the years
1927, 1928, and 1929?
Mr. W. R. SMITH : No exports of coke
from the United Kingdom were regis-


219 Written Answers. 10 February 1931 Written Answers.
228
tered as 'Consigned to Switzerland during
.the years 1927, 1928 and 1929. In the
trade returns of Switzerland which
record the goods imported according to
the country of origin (not consignment),
however, the quantity of coke imported
from the United Kingdom in these years
was recorded as 296 tons, 3,228 tons and
1,614 tons, respectively.
Foreign Oats.
Viscountess ASTOR asked the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade how much
foreign bounty-fed or dumped oats was
landed and sold in Britain in 1929 and
1930, respectively 1
Mr. W. R. SMITH : 1 regret that I am
unable to supply the information desired,
as no distinction based upon the price
of the goods or any factors that may
affect the price is anade in recording im-
ports.
IMPERIAL ECONOMIC COMMITTEE.
Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE asked the
Prime Minister whether he will consider
the desirability of using the Imperial
Economic Committee to make inquiries
into the production and cultivation of
certain chief world products in respect
of which parts of the British Empire are
themselves producers, with the object of
rendering assistance to those who are
finding it difficult at present to carry on ?
The PRIME MINISTER: I will bear
the hon. Member's suggestion i.n mind,
but, as he will be aware, no questions
can be referred to the Imperial Economic
Committee except by agreement among
the Governments of the British Common-
wealth.
NATIONAL MUSEUMS AND
GALLERIES.
Mr. MARKHAM asked the Prime
Minister if he will take steps to ensure
that a member of the Cabinet shall be
responsible for national museums other
than those under the Board of Educa-
tion ?
The PRIME MINISTER: The Royal
Commission on National Museums and
Galleries considered a suggestion on
these lines, but did not recommend its
adoption. I see no reason to differ from
their conclusion.
POST OFFICE.
Postmark Advertisements.
Mr. REMER asked the Postmaster-
General of he is prepared to have a can-
cellation stamp for all letters posted in
Macclesfield bearing the words Buy
Macclesfield Silk"?
Mr. VIANT: As my hon. Friend has
already explained in answer to similar
requests for postmark advertisements of
other British industries, the circum-
stances appertaining to the 'advertisement
of the cotton section of the British In-
dustries Fair do not apply in the case in
point, and I, therefore, regret that my
hon. Friend is unable to grant the hon.
Member's request.
Postal Facilities, Marple.
Mr. REMER asked the Postmaster-
General if his attention has been called
to the postal arrangements at Marple,
near Stockport; and if he will take steps
to see that the postal 'arrangements are of
such a character as to meet the needs of
this growing urban district?
Mr. VIANT: I am having inquiry
made, and will write to the hon. Member.
EAST AFRICA (GRANTS AND
LOANS).
Mr. MANDER asked the Financial
Secretary to the Treasury the total
amount paid on behalf of the East Africa
Protectorate and Kenya Colony by the
British taxpayer, showing the respective
sums on account of the Uganda Railway,
non-recoverable grants in aid, and re-
mission of interest on loans; the amount
paid to Kenya on account of the war
in East Africa; and the amount of
British credit at present involved in
guaranteed loans to the Colony ?
Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: Non-
recoverable grants in aid of administra-
tive and railway deficits, to the total
amount of £2,843,383, were issued to the
East Africa Protectorate in the period
from 1895 to 1912. There have been no
such grants since. Under the authority
of the Uganda Railway Acts, 1896 to
1902, sums amounting to £5,502,592 were
issued to the Protectorate from the Con-
solidated Fund in the period from 1896
to 1905 for the construction of the
Uganda Railway: and the sums so issued


229
Written Answers. HOUSE OP COMMONS Written Answers.
22(3
were borrowed from the National Debt
Commissioners by means of terminable
annuities expiring in 1925. The pay-
ments, totalling £7,909,295, in respect of
those annuities, as well as a sum of
£20,000 for preliminary expenses in con-
nection with the railway, were met from
moneys voted by Parliament for foreign
and Colonial services. It was agreed in '
1896 that until the money issued out of
Consolidated Fund for the construction
of this railway had been wholly repaid
to the Exchequer, and thereafter until
otherwise determined, the surplus profits
of the railway should be paid over to the
Exchequer save so far as they were, with
the approval of the Treasury, applied
for improving and developing the rail-
way. Nothing has Been paid over to the
Exchequer on this account to date. It
was agreed in 1924 that no claim would
be made before 1934, when the matter
will come up for consideration. The
Kenya share of the expenditure from
Imperial funds in connection with the
war in East Africa was £1,405,016. It
was agreed in 1924 that the question of
the liquidation of this debt should be
considered in 1934. In 1924, a Develop-
ment Loan of £3,500,000 was issued to
Kenya, free of interest for five years.
The loan was repaid under discount in
1927 out of the proceeds of a public
loan, and the amount repaid was
£3,280,467. Apart from this, and subject
to the foregoing remarks on Uganda
Railway advances and War expenditure
debt, there has been no remission of in-
terest on loans. And none of the
Colony's loans have been guaranteed by
the Imperial Government.
COAL INDUSTRY.
Miners' Welfare Fund.
Mr. REMER asked the Secretary for
Mines wh'at is the amount standing to the
credit of the Miners' Welfare Fund and
the amount expended during 1930?
Mr. SHINWELL: The amount stand-
ing to the credit of the Miners' Welfare
Fund at 31st January last was £2,193,956,
but of this sum £1,505,161 had already
been earmarked for future payment for
various purposes. The amount paid Out
during 1930 was £1,361,466.
Production.
Sir A. STE E L-M AITLAN D asked the
Secretary for Mines the production of
coal for the United Kingdom, the Con-
tinent of Europe, distinguishing the
principal producing countries, and the
United States for each of the last 10
years ?
Mr. SHINWELL: The information is
as follows:
Production of Coal in the United Kingdom, Europe and the United States during the years 1921
to 1930.
Country.
1921.
1922.
1923.
1924.
1925.
1926.
1927.
1928.
1929.
1930.
(Partly
esti-
mated).
Million Statute Tons.
United Kingdom (in- cluding Ireland). Germany... ...... France ......... Saar ... Belgium......... Netherlands Poland ... Soviet Union (Russia)f Czechoslovakia ... Spain ...... Rest of Europe ... 163-3 249-6 276-0 267-2 243-3 126-4 251-3 237-6 258-0 243-8
134-0 27-8 9-4 21-4 3-9 29-4 8-5 11-8 4-9 1-7 127-9 30-6 11-1 20-9 4-5 34-1 8-6 10-3 4-4 2-5 61-3 37-1 9-0 22-6 5-2 35-5 14-3 11-4 5-9 2-5 116-9 43-3 13-8 23-0 5-8 31-8 13-8 14-9 6-0 2-5 130-5 46-3 12-8 22-7 6-7 28-6 14-7 12*4 6-0 2-5 143-0 50-6 13-5 24-9 8-5 35-2 23-1 14-0 6-4 2-6 151-1 51-0 13-4 27-1 9-2 37-5 29-4 13-8 6-5 2-7 148-4 50-5 12-9 27-L 10-5 40-0 31-7 14-3 6-3 2-7 160-8 52-9 13-4 26-5 11-4 45-5 34-8* 16-5 6-9 3-0* 140-4 53-0 13-0 30-0 12-0 37-0 45-9 14-3 7-2 2-8'
Total Continental Europe 252-8 254-9 204-8 271-8 283-2 321-8 341-7 344-4 371-7 355-6
United States ... 452-0 1 425-7 587-4 510-4 519-5 587-3 533-8 514-4 543-6 474-5
* Provisional and subject to correction,
f Years ended 30th September.


219 Written Answers.
10 February 1931
Written Answers. 232
Horses (Accidents, Mines).
Mr. FREEMAN asked the Secretary for
Mines the rates per 1,000 at which horses
and ponies employed underground in
mines were killed and injured during
each of the last 10 years; the rate of
killed and injured ponies per 1,000 in
each of the divisions into which the coal-
fields are divided in official reports for
each of the last 10 years; the main causes
giving rise to these accidents; and
whether he is satisfied that the present
methods of reporting these fatal and non-
fatal injuries to the animals to the divi-
sional inspectors are entirely satisfac-
tory 1
Mr. S'-H IN W ElLL : The statistics ane a-a
follow:
Inspection Division.
1921.4
1922
1923.
1924.1 1925
1926.'
1927.
1928. 1929.-?
1930.f
(i) Number of Horses and Ponies killed or destroyed in consequence of
of injury or accident per 1,000 Horses and Ponies employed.
Scotland ... ...
Northern
Yorkshire
North Midland......
North Western......
Cardiff and Forest of
Dean.
Swansea ...
Midland and Southern ...
Great Britain
48 48 52 61 ' 45 ! 22 50 42 26 39
26 37 35 36 1 33 18 28 31 30 32
63 76 81 75 ! 76 i 46 65 70 52 51
i 37 45 50 48 46 | 25 36 42 39 35
i 27 26 30 27 ; 30 39 21 23 12
) r 48 46 | 40 27 32 37 42 39
[ 27 34 \ i
) I 41 42 I 41 23 31 1 29 28 34
45 42 55 44 42 26 43 32 31 38
35 43 47 47 ! 43 26 37 39 36 36
(ii) Number of Horses and Ponies injured by accidents
per 1,000 Horses and Ponies employed.
Scotland ... 28 30 41 34 30 24 32 43 36 25
Northern ...... 75 104 103 107 86 36 87 76 84 101
Yorkshire 143 167 166 176 188 76 150 152 171 187
North Midland...... 147 189 177 193 160 96 128 149 170 167
North Western...... 84 85 89 87 91 37 86 57 49 41
Cardiff and Forest of ) ( 136 126 175 52 97 108 112 149
Dean. [ 84 118 \
Swansea ... J (119 98 120 49 84 81 68 82
Midland and Southern ... 86 64 80 82 62 50 73 81 109 73
Great Britain 92 120 123 125 125 55 101 102 112 124
* Mines idle for considerable period owing to disputes.
t The figures for the years 1929 and 1930 relate to the 12 months ended 30th June.
Tbe causes of the accidents are very varied, but many of them are caused by the horse or tub
getting out of control, or by the horse stumbling or stepping aside.
The reporting of injuries to these animals is regulated by the Coal Mines Act, 1911, and I see
no sufficient reason to ask Parliament to make any alteration. The welfare of the animals is
carefully watched by competent inspectors.
SMALLPOX.
Mr. FREEMAN asked the Minister of
Health whether any other disease was
present in addition to smallpox in the
eight fatal cases in unvaccinated per-
sons that occurred in London during the
year 1929 ; and, if so, what disease was
present and the age of the patient in
which it was present ?
Mr. GREENWOOD: Only six deaths
from smallpox are recorded as having
occurred amongst London patients in
1929. All these patients were un-
vaccinated. In two of them no cause of
death other than smallpox was men-
tioned in the death certificate. In the
other four the age of the patient and the
certified causes of death were as shown
in the following table :


233
Written Answers. HOUSE OP COMMONS Written Answers.
22(3
No. Age. Certified cause of death.
1 37 years Ia. Hypostatic Pneumonia.
b. Chronic Peritonitis. II. Smallpox.
2 3 days Ia. Smallpox.
b. Unvaccinated : born with rash. Mother suffering from Smallpox. II. Prematurity.
3 13 years 1 Ia. Septicaemia.
b. Confluent Smallpox. II. Vesical fistula.
4 1 month Ia. Smallpox. II. Prematurity.
TRANSPORT.
Road Improvement Schemes, Somerset.
Mr. GOULD asked the Minister of
Transport the number of road improve-
ment schemes approved by his Depart-
ment since June, 1929, for the county of
Somerset, with the names of the autho-
rities and the cost of each scheme?
Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: Since
1st June, 1929, my Department has
approved, in the county of Somerset,
118 road improvement schemes estimated
to cost £401,983, and in addition, five
schemes estimated to cost £371,416 have
been approved in principle. In view of
the large number of schemes in question,
I hope my hon. Friend will not press for
information as to the name of the
authority and the cost in each individual
case.
Bath Road Scheme.
Mr. W. G. HALL asked the Minister
of Transport how many men are em-
ployed and for how long on the work in
the section of the Bath Road from Great
West Road to Colnbrook; and what is
the total estimated cost and the esti-
mated expenditure, respectively, on the
acquisition of land and for other com-
pensation to owners or occupiers for
severance, disturbance, easements and
the like, on wages, and on material ?
Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: Forty-
two men are at present engaged upon the
construction of that portion of the Bath
Road which lies between the Great West
Road and Colnbrook, and it is estimated
that the work involved will provide 4,116
men-months of direct employment. The
estimated cost of this portion of the
scheme is £171,500 of which about £42,000
represents the probable cost of acquisi-
tion of land and compensation. The
constructional works are estimated to
cost £129,500, but I regret that I have
not sufficient data to enable me to divide
the figures between wages and material.
AGRICULTURE.
| Smallholdings.
Viscountess ASTOR asked the Minister
of Agriculture for each county the net
return on the capital invested whether
in acquiring land or equipping it or
otherwise for the purpose of smallhold-
ings under the Acts of 1906, 1919, and
1926, respectively; and for each county
the loans still outstanding and their
annual loan charges towards repayment
under each Act?
Dr. ADDISON: I regret that it is not
possible to give the detailed information
asked for as regards holdings provided
under the Smallholdings and Allotments
Act, 1908, and the Land Settlement
(Facilities) Act, 1919. For England and
Wales as a whole the financial result of
councils' operations under those Acts was
approximately as follows :
(i) The capital cost of the holdings pro-
vided under the Act of 1908 was about
£5,500,000. The greater part of this sum
was borrowed from the Local Loans Fund
at 3j per cent, and, broadly speaking, the
net income from the holdings up to the
end of 1918 was sufficient to pay the
interest and redemption charges.
(ii) The capital cost of the holdings
provided under the Act of 1919 was
approximately £15,250,000 and for the
most part was met by loans from the
Land .Settlement Fund bearing interest
at rates varying from 6J per cent, to 4f
per cent., the average rate being 61 per
cent.
(iii) The total capital expenditure
under the Acts of 1908 and 1919, including
the capitalised value of certain annuities,
was about £21,750,000.
(iv) The estimated net annual income
as agreed upon between the Ministry and
the county councils for the purposes of
the Land Settlement (Facilities) Amend-
ment Act, 1925, was approximately
£400,000 per annum. This sum represents
rather less than 2 per cent, of the capital
cost after making allowance from the


219
Written Answers. 10 February 1931 Written Answers.
236
existing gross rental value for future
contingencies over a long period, as well
as for the usual costs of administrative
repairs, renewals, etc.
(v) As regards smallholdings provided
under the Smallholdings and Allotments.
Act, 1926, detailed information is only
available in the case of schemes aided by
annual contributions by the Ministry.
The schemes approved to date involve a
capital outlay of £997,479, and the net
annual return on this outlay is 3.17 per
cent. The addition of a small number
of self-supporting schemes, concerning
which no details are available, would, of
course, increase the net return.
(vi) The amount of the loans outstand-
ing on the holdings referred to in para-
graphs (i) and (ii) at the present time
is approximately £19,000,000, and the
interest and redemption payments for the
current year amount to £1,200,000. The
capital expenditure on holdings provided
under the Act of 1926 may for all
practical purposes be regarded as the
amount outstanding at the present time,
though in some cases loans have not yet
been actually raised. The estimated
annual loan charges amount to £54,422.
Beet Sugar Subsidy.
Viscountess ASTOR asked the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer the amount paid
out by the Exchequer in subsidies to beet
sugar for each year since this subsidy
was initiated; and how much of it went
to the growers of beet and how much
to the factories ?
Dr. AD DBS ON : I have been asked to
reply. The total payments of subsidy
under the British Sugar (Subsidy) Act,
1929, in respect of sugar and molasses
produced at the beet sugar factories in
Great Britain in each financial year were
as follow:
Financial Year.
1924 ...
1925 ...
1926 ...
1927
1928 ...
1929 ...
1930 (estimated)
£ s. d.
492,040 4 7
1,066,089 19
3,225,858 15
4,309,259 15
2,854,239 4
4,229,729 16 11
6,000,000 0 0
Total £22,177,217 15 1
Yery approximately, it may be said that
one-half of the subsidy payments have
been secured by best growers in the prices
negotiated on their behalf by the National
Farmers' Union with the Beet Sugar Fac-
tories Committee.
Land Drainage.
Lieut. Commander KENWORTHY
asked the Minister of Agriculture how-
many men, approximately, are now em-
ployed on land drainage schemes; and
how many of these men are at work as
a result of the operation of the Land
Drainage Act ?
Dr. ADDISON: The number of men
employed on State-assisted land drainage
schemes is approximately 1,543. None of
these are at work as a result of the
operation of the Land Drainage Act, 1930.
As my hon. Friend is aware the main
object of that Act was to secure the con-
stitution of catchment boards for the main
rivers and thus to enable more compre-
hensive schemes of drainage to be carried
out through these catchment boards.
These boards are being set up as rapidly
as the statutory requirements of the Act
permit, but there has not yet been time
for the consideration by them of drainage
schemes.
MIGRANT LAND SETTLEMENT,
VICTORIA.
Major EDM0NDS0N asked the Secre-
tary of State for Dominion Affairs when
the report is expected of the commission
appointed to inquire into the case of the
British settlers in Victoria under the
1925 scheme?
Mr. THOMAS: I understand that the
Royal Commission on Migrant Land
Settlement in Victoria began its proceed-
ings yesterday, the 9th instant. At this
stage, I am unable to say when the re-
port will be presented.
NEW ZEALAND (EARTHQUAKE).
Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE asked the
Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs
if he can now make any statement as to
the loss of life, the injury to persons and
the material damage sustained as a result
of the earthquake in New Zealand ?
Mr. THOMAS : I fear that it is still too
early for a complete statement of the loss
of life and damage caused by the earth-
quake to be available. The telegraphic
reports so far ,sent to me by the


237 Written A'riswers. HOUSE OF
Governor-General have been issued to the
Press here on their receipt; and the High
Commissioner for New Zealand is taking
steps to arrange for the immediate pub-
lication of the casualty lists as they reach
him from his Government. I regret to
say that the number of deaths definitely
reported up to the present time is 212,
though the list is not complete, and, in
addition, the number of injured is
approximately 950.
UNEMPLOYMENT.
Benefit.
Mr. W. M. ADAMSOiN asked the
Minister of Labour (1) the number of
persons between the ages of 18 and 40
years who are in receipt of unemployment
benefit at the present time, and how
many are women;
(2) the number of persons between the
ages of 55 and 65 years who are in reeipt
of unemployment benefit at the present
time, and how many are women ?
Miss BONDFI ELD : The latest date for
which figures are available is 24th
November, 1930. It is estimated that at
that date the figures in question for Great
Britain were approximately as follow:
In receipt of benefit.
Males. Females. Total.
Aged 18 to 40 Aged 55 to 64 880,000 237,000 378,000 17,000 1,258,000 254,000
Work Schemes.
Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND asked the
Minister of Labour the number of per-
sons for whom employment is now being
provided by the present Government
other than in schemes financed out of
the Road Fund?
Miss BONDFI ELD : Details as to the
numbers of persons directly employed
on the site of works at 19th December
last are contained in the reply given on
28th January last to the right hon.
Member for West Woolwich (Sir K.
Wood) of which I am .sending the right
hon. Gentleman a copy.
COMMONS Written Answers. 238
Great Britain and Foreign Countries
(Statistics).
Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE asked the
Minister of Labour how the percentage
of workers unemployed in Great Britain
compares with the percentage for Ger-
many, the United (State of America,
Belgium, France and Italy ?
Mr. R. A. TAYLOR asked the
Minister of Labour (1) if she has any
information as to the volume of unem-
ployment in the United States of
America;
(2) if she has any information as to
the volume of unemployment in Ger-
many?
Miss BONDFIELD: A summary of
official statistics of unemployment in
oversea countries appears each month in
" The Ministry of Labour Gazette." The
number of persons registered at the Ger-
man Employment Exchanges as unem-
ployed on 15th January, 1931, was
4,765,000 (provisional figure). The num-
ber of the unemployed in the United
States is not known; but I understand
that the number in the first week of
December, 1930, was reported to the
Senate as between 4,500,000 and 5,000,000.
Unofficial estimates range from 5,300,000
in December, 1930 (the estimate of the
American Federation of Labour of the
total number out of work in all trades in
the United States, union and non-
union "), to about 8,000,000 (the estimate
of the National Unemployment League).
It is possible that the lower of these
estimates relates to industrial workers
only. Statistics of unemployment are not
available in the form of percentages for
France and Italy, where 45,098 persons at
24th January, 1931, and 642,169 persons at
the end of December, 1930, were regis-
tered as unemployed respectively. In
addition 21,788 persons were recorded in
Italy as partially unemployed at the same
date. The representative of the French
Government on the Governing Body of
the International Labour Office is re-
ported by the Press to have made re-
cently a statement on unemployment,
according to which the volume of unem-
ployment in France is much greater than
appears from the published figures given
above, the results of a special inquiry
made in January showing that 350,000
persons in France were wholly unem-


219 Written Answers. 10 February 1931 Written Answers. 240
ployed, and 1,000,000 partially unem-
ployed. The latest available percentages
of unemployment in the other countries
named are given in the following table,
but it .should be noted that owing to
differences in the methods of compilation,
these percentages are not necessarily
comparable with one another.
Country. Date. Percentage unemployed. Authority for the figures.
Wholly- unemployed. On short time.
Great Britain Germany ... United States Belgium ... 22.12.30' 27.12.30 Dec., 1930. 29.11.30 14-7 31 7 23-0 6*1 5-2* 16-9 8- 0ito 31-0 12-0 German Federation of Trade U'nions.f American Federation of Labour.J Ministry of Industry, Labour and Welfare.§
* Figures represent percentage rate of unemployment among persons insured under the
Unemployment Insurance Acts. The figure in tbe short time column includes not only persons
on short time but other persons temporarily stopped from the service of employers.
f Based on returns in respect of 4,445,443 members of trade unions.
J Based on returns made by trade unions in 24' cities. Tr e Federation's weighted figure,
representing unemployment in the country as a whole, union and non-union, shows 16 5 per cent,
out of work in December, 1930." The percentage of trade unionists on short time varies in the
24 cities, no general average being given.
§ Based on returns relating to 626,220 members of unemployment insurance funds.


241 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
AGRICULTURAL LAND
(UTILISATION) BILL.
As amended (in the Standing Commit-
tee), further considered.
Clause 19.(Interpretation and
construction.)
The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE
(Dr. Addison) : I beg to move, in page 18,
line 14, to leave out from the word un-
incorporated to the word and" in
line 17.
It will be seen that in the Clause as it
stands the word Society is defined
as including any body of persons whether
incorporated or unincorporated, but
the Clause adds that it shall not
include:
" any body of persons whose funds or any
portion of whose funds are used for
political purposes.5'
These words were" inserted in Committee
and when the Amendment to include
them was moved in Committee I think
we were getting on rather well, and I
was, perhaps, in an even better temper
than usual. At all events, I accepted the
Amendment, but I find, upon going into
the matter, that my good nature in doing
so would involve me in accounting diffi-
culties in connection with this matter,
and therefore I must now ask the House
to support me in moving to omit these
words. The reason is this: The grant
that we make to the allotment society is
not made to the society as such at all;
it is made in respect of the requirements
for seeds, fertilisers and so on, and I
may say that Sir William Waterlow's
Committee, which is handling this
matter for us, is devoting a great deal
of time and attention to the work, and
I shall have, I think, the approval of
everybody when' I say a word of
appreciation on the Third Heading.
The whole point in regard to this
Amendment is that these grants are
really not made to the societies; they
are made in respect of the members who
receive so many thousand potatoes, so
many packets of seeds, this, that and the
other. The whole lot are added up, and
the Waterlow Committee supplies the
goods. That is what it comes to. If
these words were in the Bill, and it
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
were a statutory obligation upon us to
inquire of every particular allotment
society as to whether it had or had not
given a subscription to any other body
which might or might not have given a.
subscription for political purposes, we
should find ourselves involved in rather
a large inquiry as to what the society
did with their other money. All we are
concerned with in this Clause is to see
that the money we supply is used' solely
for these seeds, fertilisers, etc. No
money can be paid except in respect to
these requirements, but I suggest that it
is putting upon the Minister an
obligation very difficult to discharge if
he has to inquire what every allotment
society does with any of its other funds.
It would make the Clause largely un-
workable, or, at all events, involve
cumbersome machinery not necessary for
our purpose, and which is outside the
object of the Bill, namely, the proper
supply of seeds and fertilisers where
required. I see the hon. Member for
Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) is on the
look out, but I can assure him that none
of these funds can find their way to any
purpose except that provided for under
the Clause, and I hope, in these circum-
stances, the House will support me an
this Amendment.
Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS : Of all the
backsliders I have come across, the Min-
ister is absolutely the worst. Not only is
he a backslider, but he is self-contradic-
tory, because in Committee upstairs,
when he accepted the Amendment, he
said:
" I am advised that the Clause would be
quite workable with these words included."
[Official Report (Standing Committee B),
16th December, 1930; col. 587.]
So that, quite obviously, his claim that
this is not easy of administration goes by
the board. It is quite easy.
Dr. ADDISON : I was only able to get
advice in Committee for a minute or
two, and on further consideration it was
found that unforeseen difficulties of admin-
istration would be likely to arise. I am
sorry that it is necessary for me to go-
back on what I provisionally accepted
in Committee.
Mr. WILLIAMS: It is no good back-
sliding, and then apologising. I would,
however, take it from another point of
view. He said that these seeds and ferti-
lisers are really given to the allotment


243 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
holder himself. That is perfectly true,
but it is the administration by the
societies about which we are quarrelling.
That is why we want them t-o be of a
non-political character. When we were
in Committee upstairs, I moved the
original Amendment. The Minister had
considerable time in which to discuss it
and consider it. The Department laid it
down on that occasion that these words
were necessary in the Bill, and the Min-
ister accepted the Amendment with a
very slight alteration. Then one or two
Members in different parts of the Com-
mittee began to find difficulties. The
Minister still said he had to accept the
words, and merely added that he would
inquire into the matter betwen then and
the Report stage.
Where you have a Clause about
which there is a great deal of common
agreement, and where practically
every section of the Committee
did much to- help the Minister in
getting the Clause through, it is rather
rough when it comes -to a question of
this kind, in which we want to give
the people administering these funds the
widest power possible, that politics should
not be kept out of consideration. I do
not think that any hon. Member from any
side would wish to do otherwise when he
realises the very good work that these
societies are doing. Many of them are
giving their work without any financial
help. Here you are asking them to ex-
tend their work. There are men of every
party in these societies, and they are
working with common good will. We
wish to help the societies in every way,
but the House would be very badly ad-
vised to accept the Amendment of the
Minister, because he has got a few ex-
cellent words in this part of the Bill
which will add enormously to the easy
working powers of the Bill. In such cir-
cumstances, surely the Minister is not
going to insist upon having these words
withdrawn 1 Will he look at it from a
rather different point of view 1 He has
not made out any case of very great diffi-
culty to-day. He is laying up for himself,
at some other time, perhaps, a more
difficult position, and if only from the
point of view of helping the easy work-
ing and the clean administration of the
Bill, I would ask him to reconsider his
position, and not insist upon taking out
these words, which undoubtedly met with
a great deal of good will from all sections
of the Committee upstairs.
Mr. 0RMSBY-G0RR: Hon. Members
on this side will, I think, regret the
action of the Minister in endeavouring
to take out on the Report stage what he
inserted in Committee. We .shall cer-
tainly challenge this in the Division
Lobby, because this is undoubtedly the
least controversial section of the Bill. It
is agreed that allotments in this country
havo done nothing but good, and so far,
at any rate, the allotment societies have
been most helpful and entirely free from
political discrimination. We want to
.safeguard the future. Where Govern-
ment money is being expended, there
should not grow up any political distinc-
tion in administration, and this is the
very best way to guard against that
danger, for there is a danger in certain
areas with predominant political opinion
on one side or the other, that favouritism
will be shown in a society, and if you
are to give to all sorts of societies which
are formed for purely social and philan-
thropic purposes the power to contribute
to political parties, you are destroying
a very valuable Amendment. Because we
want to safeguard that position, we
attach great importance to these words.
We do not believe that the difficulty in
administration would be great, and it is
a safeguard to which we attach import-
ance.
Question put, That the words pro-
posed to be left out stand part of the
Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 159;
Noes, 266.
Division No. 137.]
Acland-Troyto, Lleut.-Colonel
Albery, Irving James
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid w.
Baldwin. Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)
Balnlel, Lord
Beaumont. M. W.
Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon
Betterton, Sir Henry B.
AYES.
Bird, Ernest Roy
Bourne; Captain Robert Croft
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Boyce, Leslie
Braithwaite, Major A. N.
Brass, Captain Sir William
Briscoe, Richard George
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'thTd., Hexham)
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)
Buchan, John
[4.12 p.m.
Bullock, Captain Malcolm
Burton, Colonel H. W.
Butler, R. A.
Campbell, E. T.
Castle Stewart, Earl of
Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Cayzer, MaJ.Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Chapman, Sir S.
Christie, J. A.
No. 55
G


246 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
Clydesdale, Marquess of
Cohen, Major J. Brunei
Colman, N. C. D.
Colville, Major D. J.
Cranborne, Viscount
Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Crookshank,Cpt.H.(Llndsey,Gainsbro)
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)
Dalkeith, Earl of
Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Davles, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Dawson, Sir Philip
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
Eden, Captain Anthony
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.)
Everard, W. Lindsay
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Ferguson, Sir John
Flelden, E. B.
Flson, F. G. Claverlng
Ford, Sir P. J.
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Hall, Lleut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwlch)
Hamilton, Sir George (llford)
Hammersley, S. S.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Haslam, Henry C.
Heneane. Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgle M.
Alpass, J. H.
Arnott, John
Aske, sn* Robert
Attlee, Clement Richard
Ayles, Walter
Baker, John(Wolverhampton, Bllston)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Barnes, Alfred John
Barr, James
Batey, Joseph
Bellamy, Albert
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South)
Benson, G.
Blinded, James
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Broad, Francis Alfred
Brockway, A. Fenner
Bromfield, William
Bromley, J.
Brooke, W.
Brothers, M.
Brown, Ernest (Lelth)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)
Buchanan, G.
Burgess, F. G.
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Cameron, A. G.
Cape, Thomas
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Charleton, H. C.
Chater, Daniel
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Hurd, Percy A.
Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.
Iveagh, Countess of
Knox, Sir Alfred
Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S Molton)
Leighton, Major B. E. P.
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
McConnell, Sir Joseph
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Margesson, Captain H. D.
Marjoribanks, Edward
Millar, J. D.
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir 8.
Moore, Llcut-Qolonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Muirhead, A. J.
Murnin, Hugh
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Nicholson, Col.Rt. Hn. W.G.(Ptrsf'ld)
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
O'Neill, Sir H.
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Percy. Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Power, Sir John Cecil
Purbrlck, R.
Ramsbotham, H.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Reid, David D. (County Down)
Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.
Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesal!)
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Renned
Ross, Major Ronald D.
Rothschild, J. de
Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
NOES.
Cluse, W. S.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Compton, Joseph
Cove, William G.
Cripps, Sir Stafford
Daggar, George
Dallas, George
Dalton, Hugh
Davles, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Day, Harry
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Dukes, C.
Duncan, Charles
Ede, James Chuter
Edmunds, J. E.
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Egan, W. H.
Elmley, Viscount
Foot, Isaac
Forgan, Dr. Robert
Freeman, Peter
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Gibbins, Joseph
Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley)
GUI, T. H.
Glassey, A. E.
Gossling, A. G.
Gould, F.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.)
Granville, E.
Gray, Mliner
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)
Grenfell, p. R. (Glamorgan)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Groves, Thomas E.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Salmon, Major I.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Savery, S S.
Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Skelton, A. N.
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Smithers, Waldron
Somerset, Thomas
Somervllle, A. A. (Windsor)
Somervllle, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Sueter, Rear-Admlral M. F.
Taylor, Vlce-Admlral E. A.
Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Thomson; Sir F.
Tinne, J. A.
Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Todd, Capt. A. J.
Train, J.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Ward, Lleut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Wardlaw-Milne. J. S.
Warrender, Sir Victor
Wayland, Sir William A.
Wells, Sydney R.
Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Windsor-CIive, Lleut.-Colonel George
Womersley, W. J.
Wood. Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Captain Sir George Bowyer and
Sir George Penny.
Grundy, Thomas W.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Hall, J. H. (Whltechapel)
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Hardie, George D.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Hastings, Dr. Somervllle
Haycock, A. W.
Hayday, Arthur
Hayes, John Henry
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)
Henderson, W. W. (Mlddx., Enfield)
Herriotts. J.
Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Hoffman, P. C.
Hopkfn, Daniel
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Horrabln, J. F.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfleld)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Isaacs, George
Jenkins, Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Johnston, Thomas
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W,
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)
Kedward, R. M. (Kent. Ashfprd)
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas


247 Agricultural Land
HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Kinley, J.
Kirkwood, D.
Knight, Holford
Lang, Gordon
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. Georgo
Lathan, G.
Law, Albert (Bolton)
Law, A. (Rossendale)
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)
Lawson, John James
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Leach, W.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Lees, J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Lloyd, C. Ellis
Logan, David Gilbert
Longbottom, A. W.
Longden, F.
Lunn, William
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
McElwee, A
McEntee, V. L.
McKinlay, A.
MacLaren, Andrew
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
MacNeiil-Weir, L.
McShane, John James
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Mansfield, W.
Marcus, M.
Markham, S. F.
Marley, J.
Marshall, Fred
Mathers, George
Matters, L. W.
Maxton, James
Melville, Sir James
Messer, Fred
Middleton, G.
Mills. J. E.
Milner, Major J.
Montague, Frederick
Morley, Ralph
Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Mort, D< L.
Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Muff, G.
Muggeridge, H. T.
Murnin, Hugh
Naylor, T. E.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Noel Baker, P. J.
Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)
Oldfield, J. R.
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Palin, John Henry
Paling, Wilfrid
Palmer, E. T.
Perry, S. F.
Peters, Dr. Sidney John
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Picton-Turbervill, Edith
Pole, Major D. G.
Potts, John S.
Price, M. P.
Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Rathbone, Eleanor
Raynes, W. R.
Richards, R.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Rltson, J.
Romeril, H. G.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Rowson, Guy
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Sanders, W. S.
Sandham, E.
Sawyer, G. F.
Scott, James
Scrymgeour, E.
Scurr, John
Sexton, Sir James
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Pre3ton)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Sherwood, G. H.
Shield, George William
Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Shillaker, J. F.
Shinwell, E.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Simmons, C. J.
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton;
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Snell, Harry
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Sorensen, R.
Stamford, Thomas W.
Stephen, Campbell
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Sullivan, J.
Sutton, J. E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Thurtle, Ernest
Tinker, John Joseph
Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J.
Townend, A. E.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Vaughan, David
Viant, S. P.
Walker, J.
Wallace, H. W.
Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor
Watkins, F. C.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhond.da;
Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh, James (Paisley)
West, F. R.
Westwood, Joseph
White, H. G.
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Wise, E. F.
Wood, Major McKenzIe (Banff)
Young, R. 5. (Islington, North)
TELLERS FOR THE noes.
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Charles Edwards.
Captain BOURNE: I beg to move, in
page 18, line 19, at the end, to insert the
words:
" Unemployed i,n relation to a person
means whose name is entered in the unem-
ployment register."
One of the difficulties which we had in
the Committee stage was to get some
definition of unemployed.'" Roughly
speaking, when we discuss unemployment,
the general feeling is that what we mean
by unemployed persons are those unfor-
tunate individuals whose names appear in
the weekly list of the Ministry of Labour.
Practically every person is on that
register, irrespective of whether or not
he is entitled to unemployment benefit.
The reason for that is that before the
operation of the Local Government Act,
the boards of guardians had laid it down
as a condition of granting relief that a
person should register as unemployed.
The Ministry of Labour informed me in
an answer to a question that the effect
of the new Act in England was that there
was an increase in the number of people
on the register. There is reason to
believe that all the unemployed in this
country are registered at Employment
Exchanges, although many of them are
not entitled to benefit. Therefore, isome
definition of unemployed is wanted.
The whole object of this part of the Bill
which deals with allotments and small-
holdings is to gave jobs to the unem-
ployed. It is an unemployment relief
Measure rather than an agricultural
Measure, and we ;feel that we cannot get
a better definition than that an unem-
ployed person is one who i? registered at
an Employment Exchange. I cannot see
any hardship-
No. 55


250 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF
Mr. PALIN: What about the agricul-
tural labourer; he is not registered 1
Captain BOURNE: He is covered
under another Clause and under a new
Clause which was inserted in Committee.
In addition, there is nothing to stop the
agricultural labourer registering himself
if he is out of work. It is true that he
cannot get benefit, but that does not
prevent him registering himself. If any-
body wants to claim relief as an unem-
ployed man under this Bill it is not
asking too much that he should register
as an unemployed man.
Lieut.-Colonel RU GGLES-BRISE : I
beg to Second the Amendment.
Dr. ADDISON: We discussed in Com-
mittee the fact that we have not put a
definition of unemployed in the Bill,
and I think that I succeeded in convinc-
ing the Committee that it was a wise
proceeding, because in different Acts
there are definitions of the word, which
are by no means the same. In this par-
ticular case, the proposed definition is
that he should be a person who is regis-
tered as unemployed at an Employment
Exchange, and the remark of the hon.
and gallant Member with regard to the
agricultural labourer does not quite
cover it. In Clause 7, it is true, the
agricultural worker is in the same posi-
tion as if he were unemployed with re-
gard to the provision of a smallholding,
but in this particular case the difficulty
might arise that an agricultural worker
might take over an allotment and have
to go to a town two or three miles away
to register. It will be easy to ascertain
whether or not a man is unemployed, and
I cannot see any advantage in inserting
this definition. There would be inquiry
into a man's bona fides by those in
charge of the local administration, who
will have means of finding out whether a
person is unemployed. I do not think
we need go beyond that.
Major ELLIOT: The Minister has not
met the point, and I doubt if he has fully
understood it. His suggestion is that a
man merely has to state that he is un-
employed, but our suggestion is that he
only need go to an Exchange and sign a
register.
Mr. PALIN : You are trying to put the
unemployed man to as much incon-
venience as you can.
COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
Major ELLIOT: The hon. Member is
continually interrupting, and his inter-
ruptions show that he has not grasped
any of the points we are discussing. He
brings forward the suggestion that this
is an attempt to put the unemployed man
to inconvenience. It is the Government's
proposal which will do that. The
Minister has used the phrase bona
fide," that is to say, genuinely seeking
work. That is what he stands for. We
stand for the perfectly simple test
whether a man is registered. The
Minister also stands for the local adminis-
tration holding an inquiry into cases, and
he says that it will be easy to ascertain
whether a man is unemployed. Does he
think that that will ease the case of the
unemployed 1
Mr. PALIN: Nonsense.
Major ELLIOT: The hon. Member,
when challenged, is unable to -substan-
tiate any of the assertions that he makes.
The Minister prides himself that he was
able to convince the Committee. He was
not able to do that. He voted the Oppo-
sition down, as a Government can do,
but he did not convince the Committee.
He got his own way by saying that he
would assume on his own shoulders the
whole of this administrative responsi-
bilitya very rash thing to do. He will
delay the operation of his own Measure
by this refusal. He will place an inquisi-
tion upon those applying for assistance
under the Bill, but our simple proposal
would obviate that. The Minister puts
his objection to this proposal on the
ground that it interferes with his admini-
strative discretion, and he contends that
it does not place any difficulties in the
way of the unemployed man. The proof
of the pudding is in the eating, and, after
the administrative tangle to which these
proposals will lead, the Minister will be
obliged to come to this House asking for
an amending Bill in order to get himself
out of his own difficulties. In those cir-
cumstances, I am sure he will be sorry
that he did not accept this Amendment.
We have another proposal to bring for-
ward later on which it would not be in
order for me to discuss now, and which
deals with this special point. Under the
Bill as it stands, the Minister has to de-
cide this question, and he has to decide
who is and who is not an agricultural
worker. The Minister has to decide this


251
Agricultural Land
HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill.
242
question by his own administrative dis-
cretion, and that is a position from which
we ask the House to -rescue him.
Colonel ASHLEY: I hope the right
hon. Gentleman will reconsider his de-
cision. We have proposed this Amend-
ment after making considerable inquiries,
and we are assured that if a man is un-
employed, according to our Amendment,
he is eligible under this Bill. According
to this Measure, as I read it, if the
Amendment of my hon. and gallant
Friend the Member for Oxford (Captain
Bourne) is not inserted, any man who was
not genuinely unemployed might benefit.
We are anxious to relieve the Minister
of Agriculture of unnecessary inquiries.
Dr. ADDISON: It is a matter of con-
venience that this point should be
arranged as is provided for in the Bill.
The Amendment proposed by the hon.
and gallant Gentleman opposite would
make a tremendous amount of unecessary
work.
Colonel ASHLEY: On the contrary, I
think this Amendment would avoid a
great deal of unnecessary inquiry and ex-
pense. If a person puts down his name
wrongly, then the Minister is free to
make inquiries.
Mr. C. WILLIAMS: I am in some
difficulty in regard to this question. I
think the Minister could very 'easily
build on this Amendment a very con-
siderable improvement in the Bill. The
Amendment we are discussing is a simple
and easy rule to be adopted in regard to
people who are out of work. I am in
agreement with my hon. and gallant
Friend's proposal, although it does not
achieve all that 1 want. I think the
Amendment would be rather hard on
fishermen living in a small fishing village
far away from an Employment Ex-
change, because they could not be ex-
pected to go such a long distance in
order to register themselves as unem-
ployed. That is not a reasonable thing
to ask fishermen to do in those circum-
stances. All the fishermen living in a
fishing village might be very -desirous to
have allotments on the terms provided
for in this Bill. That is a single illus-
tration but I could give many instances
from Scotland where the people live
four miles away from the place where
they would have to register. If this
Amendment could be amended in such a
way as to enable people engaged in the
fishing industry to be considered on
separate lines, then it would be a very
good proposal. The Amendment is all
right from the point of view of those who
live close to the Employment Exchanges,
but it is not convenient for those who live
in districts far away from the Ex-
changes. I recognise that there is some-
thing in what the Minister of Agri-
culture has said in regard to this Amend-
ment, but I think by suggesting the
possibility of adjusting this matter in
another place the Minister has done
something 'very' foolish. Between the
proposal of the Minister and the Amend-
ment of my hon. and gallant Friend I
am in rather a difficult position, but I
shall vote for the least foolish of the two
proposals.
Question put, That those words be
there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided:
Noes, 268.
Ayes, 170;
Division No. 138.]
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Albery, Irving James
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)
Atkinson, C.
Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)
Ballour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)
Balniel, Lord
Beaumont, M. W.
Beilairs, Commander Carlyon
Betterton, Sir Henry B.
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)
Blrchall, Major Sir John Dearman
Bird, Ernest Roy
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.
Boyce, Leslie
Brass, Captain Sir William
AYES.
Briscoe, Richard George
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)
Buchan, John
Bullock, Captain Malcolm
Butler, R. A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Campbell, E. T.
Castle Stewart, Earl of
Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.)
Cazalet. Captain Victor A.
Chapman. Sir S.
Christie. J. A.
Clydesdale, Marquess of
Cohen, Major J. Brunei
Colman, N. C. D.
Cranborne, Viscount
Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.
Crookshank, Capt. H. C.
[4.39 p.m.
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)
Cunllffe-Llster, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Dalkeith, Earl of
Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Dawson, Sir Philip
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
Duckworth, G. A. V.
Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
Eden, Captain Anthony
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
Ersklne, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s-M.)
Everar'd, W. Lindsay
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Ferguson, Sir John
Fermoy, Lord
Flelden, E. B.
Flson, F. G. Claverlng
Ford, Sir P. J.


254 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
Forestler-Walker, Sir L.
Galbralth, J. F. W.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Gritten, W. G. Howard
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Hamilton, Sir George (llford)
Hammersley, S. S.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Haslam, Henry C.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Hurd, Percy A.
Iveagh, Countess of
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Knox, Sir Alfred
Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Lefghton, Major B. E. P.
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
Locker-Lampson, Com. O.(Handsw'th)
Long, Major Hon. Eric
Lymington, Viscount
McConnell, Sir Joseph
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Margesson, Captain H. D.
Marjorlbanks, Edward
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Aitchlson, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.
Alpass, J. H.
Arnott, John
Aske, Sir Robert
Attlee, Clement Richard
Ayles, Walter
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Barnes, Alfred John
Barr, James
Batey, Joseph
Bellamy, Albert
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South)
Benson, G.
Blinded, James
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Broad, Francis Alfred
Bromfield, William
Bromley, J.
Brooke, W.
Brothers, M.
Brown, Ernest (Lelth)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)
Buchanan, G.
Burgess, F. G.
Burgin, Dr. E. L.
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Cameron, A. G.
Cape, Thomas
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Charleton, H. C.
Chater, Daniel
Cluse, W. S.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Compton, Joseph
Cove, William G.
Crlpps, Sir Stafford
Daggar, George
Dallas, George
Dalton, Hugh
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.
Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)
Mulrhead, A. J.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
O'Neill, Sir H.
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Peake, Capt. Osbert
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Picton-Turbervill, Edith
Power, Sir John Cecil
Purbrlck, R.
Ramsbotham, H.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Reld, David D. (County Down)
Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.
Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Ross, Major Ronald D.
Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Salmon, Major L
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Famham)
Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Savery, S. S.
Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Skelton, A. N.
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hal lam
Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Klnc'dine, C.)
NOES.
Davles, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Day, Harry
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Dukes, C.
Duncan, Charles
Ede, James Chuter
Edmunds, J. E.
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Egan, W. H.
Elmley, Viscount
England, Colonel A.
Foot, Isaac
Forgan, Dr. Robert
Freeman, Peter
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Gibblns, Joseph
Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley)
Gill, T. H.
Glassey, A. E.
Gossllng, A. G.
Gould, F.
Granville, E.
Gray, Mliner
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro'W.)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Groves, Thomas E.
Grundy, Thomas W.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Hall, J. H. (Whltechapel)
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Hardie, George D.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Hastings, Dr. Somervlile
Haycock, A. W.
Hayday, Arthur
Hayes, John Henry
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Smithers, Waldron
Somerset, Thomas
Somervlile, A. A. (Windsor)
Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Steel-Maltland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.
Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Thomson, Sir F.
Tinne, J. A.
Todd, Capt. A. J.
Train, J.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Turton, Robert Hugh
Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Ward, Lleut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Wardlaw-Mllne, J. S.
Warrender, Sir Victor
Wayland, Sir William A.
Wells, Sydney R.
Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Womersley, W. J.
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Worthlngton-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)
Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Sir George Penny and Major the
Marquess of Titchfield.
Henderson, W. W. (Mlddx., Enfield)
Herrlotts, J.
Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Hoffman, P. C.
Hopkin, Daniel
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Horrabfn, J. F.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.
Isaacs, George
Jenkins, Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Johnston, Thomas
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)
Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Kenworthy Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Kinley, J."
Kirkwood, D.
Knight, Holford
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)
Lang, Gordon
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Lathan, G.
Law, Albert (Bolton)
Law, A. (Rossendale)
Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybrldge)
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Leach, W.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Lees, J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Lloyd, C. Ellis
Logan, David Gilbert
Longbottom, A. W.
Longden, F.
Lunn, William
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)


266 Agricultural Land
HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
McElwee, A.
McEntee, V. L.
McKinlay, A.
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
MacNefll-Welr, L.
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
McShane, John James
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Mansfield, W.
Marcus, M.
Markham, S. F.
Marley, J.
Marshall, Fred
Mathers, George
Maxton, James
Melville, Sir James
Messer, Fred
Middleton, G.
Millar, J. D.
Mills, J. E.
Milner, Major J.
Montague, Frederick
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Morley, Ralph
Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Mort, D. L.
Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Muff, G.
Muggeridge, H. T.
Murnln, Hugh
Naylor, T. E.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Noel Baker, P. J.
Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)
Oldfield, J. R.
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Palln, John Henry
Palmer, E. T.
Parkinson, John Allen (Wlgan)
Perry, S. F.
Peters. Dr. Sidney John
Pethlck-Lawrence, F. W.
Plcton-Turbervill, Edith
Potts, John S.
Price, M. P.
Pybus, Percy John
Quibell, D. J. K.
Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Raynes, W. R.
Richards, R.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Rltson, J.
flomeril, H. G.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Rothschild, J. de
Rowson, Guy
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Sanders, W. S.
Sandham, E.
Sawyer, G. F.
Scott, James
Scrymgeour, E.
Scurr, John
Sexton, Sir James
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Sherwood, G. H.
Shield, George William
Shlels, Dr. Drummond
Shillaker, J. F.
Shlnwell, E.
Short. Alfred (Wednesbury)
Simmons, C. J..
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Smith, Rennle (Penistone)
Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Miss PICTON-TURBERVILL: On a
point of Order. Unfortunately, by a
mistake I voted in the Ayes Lobby,
and to put it right I then went into
the Noes" Lobby. Would it be in
order to cancel the "Aye" vote?
Mr. SPEAKER: No, the matter must
be left as it is. The two. votes the hon.
Member has given will cancel one
another.
Clause 21.(Financial provisions.)
Major ELLIOT: I beg to move, in
page 19, line 6, at the end to insert the
words:
" and eleven-eightieths of such sums shall
be paid into a separate account for opera-
tions in large-scale farming conducted by the
Agricultural Land Corporation in Scot-
land."
When a similar Amendment to this was
moved in Committee we were unsuccess-
ful, but I am emboldened to submit it to
the House on this occasion by the fact
that the Amendment to 'Set up a sub-
Committee for Scotland was rejected in
Committee but was accepted when it was
Snell, Harry
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Sorensen, R.
Stamford, Thomas W.
Stephen, Campbell
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Sullivan, J.
Sutton, J. E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Thome, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Thurtle, Ernest
Tinker, John Joseph
Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J.
Townend, A. E.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Vaughan, David
Vlant, S. P.
Walkden, A. G.
Walker, J.
Wallace, H. W.
Watkins, F. C.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh, James (Paisley)
West, F. R.
Westwood, Joseph
White, H. G.
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Blrm., Ladywood)
Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Wise, E. F.
Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
foung, R. S. (Islington, North)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling.
moved on the Report stage. As we have
got a separate sub-Committee I think
there is a case for the separate financial
treatment asked for in this Amendment.
The proposals brought forward by the
Minister of Agriculture and by the Secre-
tary of State for .Scotland are admittedly
of a nebulous and tentative character.
The nebulousness of them is such that
we have not been able to> get from the
Minister what he means by large-scale
farms. He has said it would be un-
reasonable to press him on that point
now, since large-scale fa-rming is any-
thing that may happen to come into his
head. If that is so, let us be sure, at
least, that the proposals which are to be
brought forward, and for which we shall
have to* pay, in Scotland, are 'such as we
shall be able to derive benefit from, that
something shall be demonstrated which
will be of use. Large-scale farming on
the light lands ofEngland will not com-
mend itself for imitation in Scotland.
There is, however, a danger, and the
Under-Secretary of State has brought it
out, that not very much will be done


258
Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill.
242
[Major Elliot.]
under this heading in Scotland. If that
be so, then we shall be paying for ex-
periments which are of no use to us.
Our point has been met by the Govern-
ment in other parts of the Bill. In
Clauses 2 and 3 they adopt the proposal
for eleven-eightieths. Hon. Members will
see that on page 19 of the Bill "para-
graph (a) says that the sum to be dealt
with by the Agricultural Land Corpora-
tion is not to exceed £1,000,000. Para-
graph (b) says that the sums required
by the Minister for the purchase of land
under Clauses 2 and 3 of the Bill shall
not exceed £5,000,000, and goes on to say
that the £5,000,000 shall be divided in the
ratio of giving Scotland £700,000, which
is the eleven-eightieths basis. There is
no such provision, however, in the case
of large-scale farming. We say this is
anomalous. No case has been made out
by the Minister to explain why in one
part of the Bill the money is to be de-
voted to Scotland in the ratio of eleven-
eightieths and in the other part of the
Bill not.
If anything, we ought to be more
anxious to make sure that we have
eleven-eightieths of the £1,000,000, since
the proposals there are much more tenta-
tive. The only argument brought for-
ward by the Under-Secretary has been
that this would run counter to our pre-
vious contention that Scotland should be
left out of the proposals for large-scale
farming. It does not in any way run
counter to it. Our proposal has always
been to leave Scotland out of that pro-
vision, but to give Scotland eleven-
eightieths of the sum and let the money
go to the Department of Agriculture for
Scotland, which is an existing body and
can act in these matters. There is
nothing contradictory in having voted in
favour of Scotland being excluded from
the operations of a corporation for large-
scale farming for the United Kingdom
and in moving that now that we have
a sub-Committee for Scotland that sub-
Committee should have control of eleven-
eightieths of the funds which the corpora-
tion will handle.
Mr. R. W. SMITH : I beg to second
the Amendment,
I hope the .Goveminent will give it
favourable consideration. The whole
procedure in regard to large-scale farm-
ing in Scotland has been progressive.
When the Bill was first brought in it
was clear from the .speeches made by
those on the Government Front Bench
representing Scotland that they did not
intend to apply large-scale farming to
Scotland. They thought that that omis-
sion would pass unnoticed, but they
made a mistake, because there are a cer-
tain number of Scotsmen on the Opposi-
tion side of the House, and even a cer-
tain number among the Liberal party,
who always try to get the best they can
for Scotland, and I feel sure that we
shall have their support in this matter.
First of all the Government were not
going to do anything, and then we
secured the appointment of a sub-com-
mittee ; and I say that we are only
following out the natural sequence of
events in providing that subcommittee
with funds with which to carry on its
work. If the committee is not to have
funds what will be the use of it1? It
will be in the hands entirely of the
English director, and might as well not
exist. The committee that the main cor-
poration sets up may be entirely com-
posed of Englishmen, who know nothing
at all about Scotland. It is a well-known
fact that those who hold the purse strings
are able to call the tune, and we are
asking for nothing more than is reason-
able for Scotland in asking for the
eleven-eightieths to be set apart in a
separate fund for large-scale farming in
Scotland.
Mr. MACPHERSON: I rise to rein-
force the arguments put forward by my
two hon. Friends who have preceded me.
What they want is only the corollary of
what they have already got. When it
was argued the other day that Scotland
was entitled to its own subcommittee
the Government wisely acceded to the
request, and now that the subcommittee
is to be set up it follows that it must
have something to do, and, accordingly,
must have the funds with which to do
it. When any sum is given to England
in the ordinary course eleven-eightieths
of the amount is given to Scotland,
under the old Goschen rule, and all we
ask of the Government is that they
should continue the practice of ti e past,
and, having established a committee,
give it the appropriate apportionment of
the Imperial funds. It is perfectly true
that at no stage have we ardently de-
sired large-scale farming in Scotland.


260 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill.
242
We have had experimental farming there
for some time, and the same necessity
for large-scale farming does not obtain
there as it does south of the border;
but we do desire that this sub-committee
should have funds, so that they may con-
sider where advances can be made in
our agricultural methods, whether in
sheep-farming on a large scale or cattle-
raising on a large scale, for there are
many experiments yet to be tried.
Accordingly, we as Scottish Members
strongly press this Amendment, and ask
the Government to reconsider the whole
position.
The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE
for SCOTLAND (Mr. Johnston): As the
hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove
(Major Elliot) very correctly said, this
point was discussed upstairs in Com-
mittee and was negatived there without
a Division.
Major ELLIOT: I agree that that was
so, but we had come to an arrangement
with the Government, and in fulfilment
of that arrangement we were doing our
utmost to facilitate business.
Mr. JOHNSTON: I do not say that
hon. Members ran away from this Amend-
ment, but there were, doubtless, very
cogent and reasonable considerations
which influenced them in choosing other
and more important issues upon which
to divide the Committee upstairs. When
there was only a limited time
5.0 p.m. at their disposal they chose
matters of greater moment
and importance and decided that this was
not one of them. The hon. and gallant
Gentleman is perfectly well aware that
this is one part of the Bill which the
Government, the House of Commons,
and the Committee upstairs decided that
it would be inappropriate, and indeed
difficult, to run in separate nationalist
compartments. We separated our small-
holdings and allotments work, we sepa-
rated our demonstration farms, and we
separated reconditioning, but it was
found to be a matter of great difficulty
to set up two large-scale farming cor-
porations and to allocate £1,000,000 in
the proportions in which money is usually
divided between Scotland and England.
It was considered to be much more de-
sirable that, if there was to be a large-
scale experiment in mechanised farming,
the United Kingdom Corporation should
be set up with powers to borrow as laid
down in the Bill, to deal with matters
really on a large scale and not in any
parochial sense whatsoever. If the ex-
periment were a successpoultry farm-
ing, or sheep farming or cereal farming
or whatever it might beobviously all
the agriculturists in the country would
get the benefit of it.
If, for example, the corporation should
decide that more of the money could be
usefully spent in Scotland, we do not
want the corporation to be debarred
from doing so ; but, if this Amendment
were carried, the corporation could only
spend up to eleven-eightieths of this
money in Scotland. It is unreasonable
that the corporation, which is admittedly
an experiment, should have its hands
tied and be cribbed, cabined and confined
in its initial stage. If subsequently it
should be found that the operations of
this corporation could be and should be
extended both in Scotland and England,
then it might be a right and proper
thing to say that Scotland should get an
appropriate share of the money allo-
cated ; but in the initial stages of this
great experiment, surely it is highly de-
sirable that the corporation should not
be unnecessarily cramped in its efforts
to make the experiment a success. If
the work is to be done with any chance
of success, I submit that the directors
of the corporation should be left as free
as possible to chose the subjects and
areas on which they are most likely to
achieve success. It was for those reasons
that the Government decided that it was
preferable in the initial stages that the
corporation should have a United
Kingdom basis.
Sir PATRICK FORD: I am very glad
that the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secre-
tary of State for Scotland recognises that
the United Kingdom basis for legislation
is sometimes desirable in reference to
Scotland. He and I differ in that we
think different things ishould be dealt with
separately. This is a thing that I do not
think should be dealt with on a United
Kingdom basis at ajl, because, as I under-
stand it, it relates -to- experiments in large-
scale farming. I speak as one who is
more or less familiar with farming on a
large scale, and fairly successful farming
in the Lothians of Scotland. In that dis-


261 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
DSir P. Ford.]
triot farming is on quite a big enough
scale, but, on the other hand, there are
other districts, the crofting districts for
example, for which largesscale farming
would not be suited at all, and it would
be a mistake to experiment where the
conditions made it impossible, or to ex-
periment with districts where farming is
already going on on a large scale and has
worked successfully for generations, and
to break up that system. We would
prefer to have eleven-eightieths of the
money for 'experimenting in other forms
of agriculture in Scotland, and for those
reasons I emphatically oppose the United
Kingdom basis, for this system of experi-
ment in Scotland.
Mr. SKELTON : The main point which
was made by the Under-Secretary of
State for Scotland was that in the early
stages of this experiment we should not
know how much we .should have to spend-
in Scotland. I do not agree with that
view. I should have thought that from
the outset, instead of there being any
quarrel as to what proportion should be
allocated to England and Scotland, at
should know at the outset what they are
to have. I cannot imagine anything less
likely to make for good administration
than that every year, when the question
of expenditure came up, the main energy
of the corporation and their sub-com-
mittee should be spent iin a dog-fight as
to who was to get the bone or what pro-
portion of the bone. It seems' to me that
if there is to be a well-thought-out policy
of experiment, you must know the finan-
cial basis on which the policy is going to
proceed. I do not at all appreciate the
point that if later the experiment is
found to be a success you could change
the proportion. The point would be that
if the experiment were a success you
would increase the total amount, but that
would not be a change of proportion. If
we are to adopt the view, which I do with
some hesitation, that 'Scotland would
benefit, and that there is room in Scot-
land for this large-scale experiment, it
seems to me to be vital that the people
there should have a definite and not an
indefinite sum at their disposal.
When I and other hon. Members
pointed out that there might be diffi-
culties in making full use of large-scale
experiments in Scotland, I was assured
by the Secretary of State for Scotland
and I am not sure that I was not
also told by the Under-Secretary also
that the whole of the area between the
Pentlands and Ayrshire was crying -out
for money to be expended in this way.
We are told in one breath that it is
doubtful whether money would be needed
in Scotland at all, and now we are given-
an argument which even the most in-
genuous Member from North of the
Tweed cannot be expected to swallow,,
that, if we are to get eleven-eightieths,
we shall not get any more. There is a
phrase which is very often used by the-
hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J.
Jones), A little bit of sugar for the
bird." This seems to me to be an ad-
mirable example of the use of that kind
of diet.
Mr. JOHNSTON: There are subjects
on which we get more than eleven-
eightieths now.
Mr. SKELTON: I am very glad to
hear it, but these are only acquired by
very deep Parliamentary subterfuges,
and I am very unwilling to introduce into
this new matter so tortuous a method.
I do not want to make a debating point,
but I press strongly that it should be
realised in Scotland and here that, if
there is any substance in the Govern-
ment view that experiments in large-
scale farming should be made, and that
these are urgently necessary in Scotland,
they should be made upon an adequate
basis, and that the finance should be
settled so that the sub-committee could
go on with its work of seeing how best
to expend a fixed and known financial
amount, and not be merely a catspaw of
the English, corporation.
Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE : It
is not often that I am in favour of any
proposals made by the Government
the Bill to my mind is a very bad Bill
but on this particular point I do agree
with the Government. I very much
object to what I regard as the narrow
nationalism of Scotland, always trying
to grab, grab, grab. I fail to see why,
if Scotland is to get eleven-eightieths
of this expenditure, I should not get
another eleven-eightieths for Devonshire.
If the money is to be wasted, why should
it be wasted in Scotland ? I protest
against the constant attempts of Scot-
tish Members to try to pinch money
from us, and I hope the Government will
stand firm.


264 Agricultural Land
Sir HARRY HOPE: I want to say tliat
in Scotland there is absolutely no desire
for money to be spent upon large-scale
national farming. My hon. and gallant
Friend the Member for Tiverton (Lieut.-
Colonel Acland-Troyte) has said that we
in Scotland want to get as much money
here as we can possibly obtain. Whether
we have done that or not in the past I
do not know, but certainly on this
occasion we have 110 desire to grab money
for this purpose. Large-scale national
farming is anathema to the whole of the
agricultural community of the country,
and therefore we have no desire to get
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
any more than what is the ordinary
Scottish share. If this money could be
spent on research work, we would be
quite ready to take all we could get.
But to spend it on the futile, absurd, and'
unpractical proposal of carrying on
governmental farms is an absolute waste
of public money at a time when there is.
no public money to spare, and we Scots
do not desire to take any hand in that
work.
Question put, That those words be
there inserted in the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 202;
Noes, 241.
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Division No. 139.]
Albery, Irving Jaimes
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Aske, Sir Robert
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)
Atholl, Duchess of
Atkinson, C.
Balllle-Hamllton, Hon. Charles w.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thane.)
Balnlel, Lord
Beaumont. M. W.
Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon
Betterton, Sir Henry B.
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman
Bird, Ernest Roy
Blindell, James
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.
Boyce, Leslie
Bracken, B.
Braithwaite, Major A. N.
Brass, Captain Sir William
Briscoe. Richard George
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)
Brown, Ernest (Leith)
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Buchan, John
Bullock, Captain Malcolm
Burgin, Dr. E. L.
Butler, R. A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Campbell, E. T.
Carver, Major W. H.
Castle Stewart, Earl of
Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Chapman, Sir S.
Christie, J. A.
Clydesdale, Marquess of
Cohen, Major J. Brunei
Colman, N. C. D.
Colville, Major D. J.
Cranborne, Viscount
Crlchton-Stuart, Lord C.
Crookshank, Cpt. H.( Llndsey,Galnshro)
Culverwefi, C. T. (Bristol, West)
Cunllffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Dalkeith, Earl of
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Davies,,'Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset,Yeovl!)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Dawson, Sir Philip
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
AYES.
Duckworth, G. A. V.
Dudgeon, Major C R
j Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
fcEden, Captain Anthony
E'Jmondson, Major A. J.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
Elmley, Viscount
England, Colonel A.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.)
Everard, W. Lindsay
Fade, Sir Bertram G.
Ferguson, Sir John
Fermoy, Lord
Flelden, E. B.
Fison, F. G. Claverlng
Foot, Isaac
Ford, Sir P. J.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Glassey, A. E.
Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Gower, Sir Robert
Grace, John
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Granville, E.
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Gray, Milner
Griffith. F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)
Gritten, W. G. Howard
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Gunston. Captain D. W.
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Hamilton, Sir George (llford)
Hammersley, S. S.
Hanbury, C.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Haslam, Henry C.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Hurd, Percy A.
Hurst, Sir Gerald B.
Hutchison, MaJ.-Gen. Sir R.
Iveagh, Countess of
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Kindersley, Major G. M.
Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. Georne (1*. Molton)
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
Long, Major Hon. Eric
Lymington, Viscount
McConnell, Sir Joseph
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W)
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)
[5.16 p.m.
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Margesson, Captain H. D.
Marjoribanks, Edward
Meller, R. J.
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.
Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)
Muirhead, A. J.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Nicholson, Col.Rt. Hn. W.G.(PtrsfMd)
Nleld, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
O'Neill, Sir H.
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Peake, Captain Osbert
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Peters, Dr. Sidney John
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Power, Sir John Cecil
Purbrick, R.
Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Ramsbotham, H.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Reid, David D. (County Down)
Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.
Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclcsall)
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennelf
Ross, Major Ronald D.
Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Savery, S. S.
Scott, James
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Skelton, A. N.
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Smith, R.W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Smithers, Waldron
Somerset, Thomas
Somerville. A. A. (Windsor)
SomervHIe, D. G. (Wlllesden, East)
Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)
Steel-Maltland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.


266 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.
Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Thomson, Sir F,
Tinne, J. A.
Titchfield, Major the Marquess ol
Todd, Capt. A. J.
Train, J.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Turton, Robert Hugh
Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Wardlaw-Mllne, J. S.
Warrender, Sir Victor
Wayland, Sir William A.
Wells, Sydney R.
White, H. G.
Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Womersley, W. J.
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Klngsley
Worthlngton-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavlst'k)
Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Sir George Penny and Captain
Euan Wallace.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')
Alpass, J. H.
Angell, Sir Norman
Arnott, John
Attlee, Clement Richard
Ayles, Walter
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Barnes, Alfred John
Barr, James
Batey, Joseph
Bellamy, Albert
Bennett, William (Battersea, South)
Benson, G.
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Broad, Francis Alfred
Bromfield, William
Bromley, J.
Brooke, W.
Brothers, M.
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)
Buchanan, G.
Burgess, F. G.
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Cameron, A. G.
Cape, Thomas
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Charleton. H. C.
Chater, Daniel
Cluse, W. S.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Compton, Joseph
Cove. William G.
Cripps, Sir Stafford
Croom-Johnson, R. P.
Daggar, George
Dallas, George
Dalton, Hugh
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Day, Harry
Dukes, C.
Duncan, Charles
Ede, James Chuter
Edmunds, J. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Egan, W. H.
Forgan, Dr. Robert
Freeman, Peter
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Gibbins, Joseph
Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley)
Gill, T. H.
Gossllng, A. G.
Gould, F.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne).
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Groves, Thomas E.
Grundy, Thomas W.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
NOES.
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hardie, George D.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Hastings, Dr. Somervllle
Haycock, A. W.
Hayday, Arthur
Hayes, John Henry
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)
Herriotts, J.
Hirst, G. H. (YorkW. R. Wentworth)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Hoffman, P. C.
Hollins, A.
Hopkin, Daniel
Horrabin, J. F.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)
Isaacs, George
Jenkins, Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Johnston, Thomas
Jones, Rt. Hon. Leff (Camborne)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)
Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M
Kinley, J.
Kirkwood, D.
Knight, Holford
Lang, Gordon
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Lathsn, G
Law, Albert (Bolton)
Law, A. (Rossendale)
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)
Lawson, John James
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Leach, W.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Lees, J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Lloyd, C. Elll-
Logan. David Gilbert
Longbottom, A. W.
Longden, F.
Lunn, William
Macdonald. Gordon (Ince)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)
McElwee, A.
McEntee, V. L.
McKlnlay, A.
MacLaren, Andrew
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
McShane, John James
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Mansfield, W.
Marcus, M.
Markham, S. F.
Marley, J.
Marshall, Fred
Mathers, George
Maxton, James
Melville, Sir James
Messer, Fred
Middleton, G.
Mills, J. E.
Montague, Frederick
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Morley, Ralph
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Mort, D. L.
Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Muff, G.
Muggeridge, H. T.
Murnln, Hugh
Naylor, T. E.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Noel Baker, P. J.
Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)
Oldfield, J. R.
Palin, John Henry
Paling, Wilfrid
Palmer, E. T.
Parkinson, John Allen (Wlgan)
Perry, S. F.
Pethlck-Lawrence, F. W.
Picton-Turbervill, Edith
Pole, Major D. G.
Potts, John S.
Price, M. P.
Pybus, Percy John
Quibeli, D. J. K.
Raynes, W. R.
Richards, R.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Sprlng)
Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Ritson, J.
Romerll, H. G.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Rowson, Guy
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Sanders, W. S.
Sawyer, G. F.
Scrymgeour. E.
Scurr, John
Sexton, Sir James
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Sherwood, G. H.
Shield, George William
Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Shillaker, J. F.
Shinwell, E.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Simmons, C. J.
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Snell, Harry
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Sorensen, R.
Stamford, Thomas W.
Stephen, Campbell
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Sullivan, J.
Sutton, J. E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)
Thurtle, Ernest
Tinker, John Joseph
Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J.


268 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
Townend, A. E.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Vaughan, David
Viant, S. P.
Walkden, A. G.
Walker, J.
Wallace, H. W.
Watklns, F. C.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh, James (Paisley)
West, F. R.
Westwood, Joseph
Whlteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Wilson, R,. J. (Jarrow)
Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Wise, E. F.
Young, R. S. (Islington, North)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Mr. T. Henderson and Mr. Ben
Smith.
Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to move, in
page 19, line 9, to leave out the word
" sections," and to insert instead thereof
the word section."
The object of this Amendment, and of
the consequential Amendments which
follow, is to prevent the finance of the
demonstration farms from being mixed
up in one sum of £5,000,000 with the
finance of the reclamation and recon-
ditioning of land. It is a very odd thing
in this Bill that, whereas the large-scale
farms have a specific sum allotted to
them, the smallholdings are provided for
by their special financial sectionthough
the sum is indefiniteand, similarly,
there is a separate section for the allot-
ments, nevertheless the general sum of
£5,000,000 is allotted to the joint purposes
of financing both the demonstration farms
and the reclamation of land. We on this
side of the House consider that it i^ an
extremely bad Treasury practice, and an
extremely bad and growing Parlia-
mentary practice, not to provide a
definite sum for each principal object of
a Bill in the Bill itself, and we consider
that each principal object of the Bill
should have a separate financial section
to itself. By these Amendments we enter
a protest against this attempt of the
Treasury on this occasion to depart from
the general rule which hitherto has
guided them, and to lump these two quite
dissimilar portions of the Bill under one
financial sub-section.
Really, the financing of the demonstra-
tion farmsthe scientific experiments
that are to be conducted in addition to
the large-scale farming, for the purpose
of providing -object-lessons and training
centres for the farmers of the country
has absolutely nothing whatever to do
with the reclamation and reconditioning
of derelict or neglected land. We con-
sider that the Government, by lumping
these two portions of the Bill together
under this one ^Sub-section, are setting a
dangerous and a bad precedent. We
want to see the proper system of draft-
ing and of financing in regard to these
matters once again reaffirmed by Parlia-
ment. In proposing that the financial
provision which is to be made for
demonstration farms and for the re-
clamation and reconditioning of land re-
spectively should be divided into two de-
fined sums of money, we wish to take
this, which will be our only opportunity,
of protesting against the expenditure of
£5,000,000 with no economic safeguards,
either on more demonstration farms or on
the reconditioning of derelict land. We
'are very doubtful whether under either
heading it will be possible to get value
for such a national expenditure, and we
consider that the present time is sin-
gularly inopportune for such expenditure,
when the money could be used in the
interests of agriculture to much better
purpose by assisting those crops, not on
the worst land but on the better land,
which, owing partly to the 'action, and
still more to the inaction, of the present
Government, are not economic.
Dr. ADDISON : The effect of the right
hon. Gentleman's series of Amendments
is not only what he has described, but
a little more. It is to limit the expendi-
ture on demonstration farms under
Clause 2 to £500,000, and the remaining
£100,000 is all that would then be left for
the purposes of Clause 3, which includes
^ land reclamation, drainage, etc., and land
which may he acquired as being grossly
neglected.
Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: We need not
quarel 'about that. The principle is the
important thing. If the right hon. Gen-
tleman says he wants £500,000 for recon-
ditioning, I think that was rather the
intentionto divide it and have £500,000
for each purpose.
Dr. ADDISON: That restores some-
thing like a sense of proportion, hut the
effect of the series of Amendments is that
£500,000 would be available for Clause 2
and £100,000 for Clause 3. If the right
hon. Gentleman, on the whole, thinks that
£500,000 is a reasonable figure for
demonstration farms, I do not think 1
should h'ave much occasion to differ.


269
Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill.
242
[Dr. Addison.]
But we have deliberately put the finance
of these two Clauses together, because it
may easily happen, and I should think it
certainly will happen, that in the course
of development and administration they
will to some extent overlap, and it is
unnecessary to draw an artificial line
between them. The right hon. Gentle-
man says the time is inopportune to pro-
pose spending money on reconditioning
or reclamation, or dealing with land that
is neglected. There I disagree with him
entirely. I think this time of all others
is when we should attend to improving
our national heritage. It will take a
series of years to use the money that is
provided under the Bill, but it will im-
prove the land and provide a consider-
able amount of very valuable employ-
ment. Anyhow, to reduce Clause 3 to
£100,000-
Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I will not move
that Amendment.
Dr. ADDISON: We will say no more
about that, but, for the reasons I have
given, it would be unwise artificially to
divide the sum. It may be that the land
that is reclaimed or restored may be
taken over for demonstration farms.
There is no necessity to separate them,
and, in any case, an arbitrary limit as
entirely contrary to the main purpose
of the scheme.
Colonel ASHLEY: Two points of con-
siderable interest have emerged from the
right hon. Gentleman's speech. In the
first place, he admits that £500,000 is
about as much as he thinks one could
usefully spend on demonstration farms.
That is, after all, a very great step in
advance, because, at any rate, we know
now, as taxpayers, the worst that is
going to happen to the national finances
under these unnecessary demonstration
farms. We have to have them, I agree,
because they are in the Bill, but in one
sense, in my opinion, there is no need
for them. Private enterprise has given
us all the demonstration we want, and
this £500,000 will be entirely wasted
money. Anyhow, it is a blessing to know-
that it is not going to be more than
£500,000. The right hon. Gentleman
simply reiterated the statement that you
can usefully put in one Clause both
demonstration farms and -reconditioning.
He simply made the statement that you
could and that it was convenient to do
so.
He gave no reason at all why two such
dissimilar things should be put into one
Clause and why £5,000,000 should be
lumped together for these two purposes.
Demonstration may be good or bad, but
it is an attempt, on the part either of
the State or of the individual, by up-to-
date methods and by taking considerable
areas to show what can be done under
modern conditions and with modern
machinery, with large capital and
generally by co-operative methods. That
is one thing. But reconditioning is
absolutely different. It means that the
State considers that certain lands are
not in a good state. They do not pro-
ceed to demonstrate how well they can
do it in the sense of making experiments.
They proceed to put it back into a state
in which it can be used in agriculture.
I cannot see that there is any reason at
all why these two objects should be put
in the same Clause, and, frankly, I do
not understand the reason for not
accepting my right hon. Friend's idea.
We now know that the right hon. Gen-
tleman does not wish to spend more than
£500,000 on demonstration farms. He
should have the £500,000 earmarked for
demonstration farms and another sum for
reconditioning. By a process of elimina-
tion we have now arrived at the fact that
the Minister has in his mind-that over
a series of years the Treasury will be
allowed to spend £4,500,000 on recon-
ditioning land. On the face of it, it
sounds quite reasonable. If the agricul-
turist can get a decent return for the
stuff he grows, it is a most excellent
proposal, because we do not want land
to lie derelict which can be usefully cul-
tivated, to grow food for the people and
to increase the national wealth. But it
seems to me that the money must be
largely wasted. I am reinforced in that
idea, because the right hon. Gentleman
has refused an Amendment that no money
shall be spent on reconditioning land
unless it can be demonstrated that there
will be a return for the money put into
it. Here we have £1,500,000 to be spent
in three or four years with no certainty
that it will be well spent, because he
says, I will recondition land whether
it is a good business proposition or not."
-Dr. ADDrl SON indicated dissent.


271 Agricultural Land 10 February 1931 (iUtilisation) Bill.
272
Colonel ASHLEY: That is what it
comes to. He is going to recondition
land, and he refuses to say he visualises
that the land will pay when it is recon-
ditioned. He has refused an Amendment
which says, You shall only recondition
if a dividend is to be paid on it." It
.seems to me a very isound business pro-
position that you should not recondition
land unless you are going to get some-
thing out of it. Not only are we going
to fritter away this £4,500,000, but, when
the money is spent, the land need not,
and probably will not, bring any addi-
tion to the wealth of the country, and
the man who farms it will have no guar-
antee that what he grows will'be sold at
a decent price. I think my right hon.
Friend's Amendment is a very reasonable
one on two grounds. One, that the two
dissimilar objects ought to be separated,
and, secondly, that the £4,500,000 will
be wasted in reconditioning land which
will not pay when it is reconditioned.
Mr. HARDIE: Some of us have been
sitting very quietly on these benches in
order to help the Government and to pre-
vent the wasting of time. I have never
known so much cant and humbug talked
on an Amendment. One can recall the
sugar-beet business and the £20,000,000
that was going to one or two firms alone.
There was no call then for great accuracy
in the accounts. It was going into the
poekets of the wealthy. Whenever it is
anything where the common people are
likely to get a little benefit, then you get
right hon. Gentlemen opposite asking
for accounts. What did you do with
that lid. 1 The £20,000,000 was not
given with the idea of making things
"better for the masses. It provided a
subsidy which was altogether ,outside
the needs of the industry, as is proved
by the fact that they could have given
the sugar away free and still made a
profit.
I want the House to realise that we are
seeking to bring land which is lying use-
less into cultivation, or into proper use.
Surely no money could be better spent
at any time or anywhere than bringing
what is of permanent value into func-
tion, because land functioning is the one
permanent value that we have. Since
1918 we have spent something like
£300,000,000 on unemployment benefit
with nothing to show for it. Here is a
proposal that means that for what we
are going to spend we are going to have
at least something. But, quite apart
from the value of what may be left, there
is that great understanding of trying
to do something for the nation in the
difficulties under which, like other
nations, it is suffering at the moment.
As far as the beet-sugar industry and its
subsidy are concerned, it looks as if
nothing is to be left but the debris.
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr.
Dunnico) : I do not think the question
of the beet-sugar subsidy arises here.
This Amendment deals with the divid-
ing of the accounts into two sections.
Mr. HARDIE: The right hon. Gentle-
man is asking for more meticulous
accounts. I am using the illustration
given by the right hon. and gallant
Gentleman on the other side. If they
think it is right that this should happen
here, then why did they not fight for a
similar provision in regard to the beet-
sugar subsidy They did not do so, be-
cause the money was going to tiheiii
friends. Now that we are trying to
provide something from which the
common people are going to get some
benefit, there is aTdemand for scientific
accountancy. I agree with the appli-
cation of scientific principles, but here
hon. Members opposite wish to
do it in regard to one side and not in
regard to the other. If the thing is
good, it should be applied all round.
Intelligent people always do that. The
effort which is being made now is an
earnest effort to try to get back that
which is permanent in relation to help-
ing unemployment. It is cheap almost
at any price when it comes to providing
a permanent opportunity for men and
women to obtain benefit from the culti-
vation of the land. We know that hon.
and right hon. Gentleman on the other
side do not like it. They wish to have
conditions as far as the land is con-
cerned, that will enable them to dictate
the serf conditions always associated
with them.
Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Where?
Mr. HARDIE : I might be out of order
if I traversed in that direction and gave
details. Those who ask the question
have only to look at the condition of the
modern agricultural labourer. This is a
paltry sum .compared with the amount of


50
Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill.
242
[Mr. Hardie.]
the beet-sugar subsidy and it will be of
immense value. I hope that the Minister
will meet the Opposition by remaining
rigid, and that he will not give way one
jot or tittle. In regard to every ques-
tion which becomes as practical as the
present question, he is sure to have with
him a majority of the intelligent men in
the House.
Lieut.-Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE : The
House has been treated to a little
quarrel between the back benchers
opposite and my right hon. and gallant
Friend. I should like to ask the House
to consider the following point. The
hon. Member for Springburn (Mr.
Hardie) evidently thinks that the whole
of this Bill forms part of the policy of
the Government for dealing with unem-
ployment. On the other hand, I under-
stood, and I think the House generally
understood, that the Agricultural Land
(Utilisation) Bill was part of the vaunted
policy of the Government to deal with
agriculture and to show the farmers of
the country how to make farming pay.
We on this side of the House are en-
titled to know from the right hon.
Gentleman opposite what is the under-
lying purpose of this Bill. What is the
primary object 1 Is the right hon.
Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture
trying to do what the learned Attorney-
General failed to do the other day,
namely, to kill two birds with one stone t
Mr. HARDIE: The hon. and gallant
Gentleman has made a statement with
regard to what I have said. May I call
his attention to Clause 14, the marginal
note of which says:
" Power of Minister to provide allotments
not exceeding one acre for unemployed
persons."
That is the part with which I was
dealing.
Lieut.-Colonel RU GGLES-BRISE: We
are not at the moment dealing .with the
Clause which makes provision for allot-
ments for the unemployed. To return
to the rather wider issue, before we go
any further it is only right that the
House, and, through the House, the
country should be told quite clearly what
is the fundamental and underlying pur-
pose of this part of the Bill. Is it part
of the policy of the Government for
dealing with unemployment, or is it part
of their policy to make farming pay i
We ought to be told quite definitely.
The House will have learnt with some
relief, I feel sure, that the right hon.
Gentleman has in mind a figure of
approximately £500,000 as the -outside
limit which he would wish to devote to
demonstration farms. I, personally, am
extremely relieved that the right hon.
Gentleman has not a larger figure than
that in his mind, but I should feel a
great deal safer, and I am sure that we
on this side of the House would enjoy
a sense of relief, if we could have that
]imit actually inserted in the Bill. j.r
the right h-on. Gentleman is so clear in
his mind as to the sum which he intends
to devote for demonstration farms, why
does he object so strongly to putting the
figure into the Bill 1 Surely, there can
be no objection to such a course.
With regard to the £4,500,000 which,
he tells us, he intends to devote to the
reclaiming and reconditioning of land,
I would ask him what is tlhe amount of
acreage in this countryI believe the
figure is in his possessionat the present
time which has ever been farmed within
recent years and which has now fallen
into decay and is not being farmed at
all 1 To the best of my information, the
figure is an extraordinarily small one.
Out of some 30,000,000 acres of lan-d in
this country devoted to farming, I be-
lieve that I am right in saying that a
mere trifle--some 75,000 acres onlyhas
fallen out of 'cultivation. The right hon.
Gentleman shakes his head. I invite him
to give the figure if he will be so good,
but I am informed that the figure is
approximately what I have, stated. If
only a fraction of the landTn this country
has fallen out of cultivation, I would 'ask
the right hon. Gentleman to tell the
House how he can possibly justify the
proposals in this Clause and devote a
sum of not less than £4,500,000 to the
re-cla-mation o:f such a comparatively
small amount of land. My right hon.
and gallant Friend the Member for the
New Forest (Colonel Ashley) has pointed
clearly to the House the futility of
spending any of this money. Even if
you are successful in your reclamation
work, and you bring back a few thousand
acres of wheat land into condition so
that they may be farmed, what, after
all, have you achieved, if the agricul-
tural produce grown on such land cannot


276 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
find; a market at a price which makes it
worth growing % Yet at the present time,
when we have the country labouring
under great financial stress-, the Govern-
ment a&k the House to vote a 'sum of
not lesis than £4,500,000 for the reclama-
tion of this land.
It is a monstrous action at this time
to incur any expenditure whatever unless
it is productive expenditure. We have
a Government in power who appear to
think that the purse of the taxpayer
is completely inexhaustible, and I know
that when the next General Election
comes we shall have members of the
Socialist party standing on platforms up
and down the country saying, Look
what we have spent for you We have
spent £1,000,000 on this and we have
spent £4,500,000 on that, and are you
not very grateful to us for what we have
done'? I believe that the farmers of
the country will say, Thank you for
nothing. There are many other ways in
which you might have spent the money
very much more profitably if you really
intended to carry out your last election
promise to make farming pay."
Mr. TOWN END: It is rather amusing
for some of us to have to listen to a
speech such as that which has been de-
livered by the hon. and gallant Member
for Maldon (Lieut.-Colonel Huggles-
Brise) following the speech of the right
hon. and gallant Member for the New
Forest (Colonel Ashley), both of whom
informed us that the proposals of the
Minister in allowing this money to be
used for the purposes indicated, to which,
obviously, neither of them can lend their
support, are amazing and constrous.
I was reminded, while listening to the
late Minister for Transport, of the way
in which he provided a wonderful ex-
ample for the Minister of Agriculture to
follow when he carried through the
House and through Committee upstairs
the Electricity Bill, 1926.
Colonel ASHLEY: The present Minister
of Agriculture says frankly, I do not
mind whether I lose any money or not,
and he refuses to accept any Amendment
in order to find out, whereas in my Elec-
tricity Bill it was proposed to save
£40,000,000 in 10 years' time.
Mr. TOWN END : It will be well within
the recollection of the late Minister of
Transport, that when we were discussing
the Electricity Bill upstairs, it was ad-
mitted by him and other hon. Members
on his side of the House, that in regard
to the extension of electricity to rural
districts, to the far outposts of the
country, and the laying down of the grid,
the industrial areas would have to make
up the loss involved in carrying the elec-
tricity to the far distant parts. When
the right hon. and gallant Gentleman
points out to us that it is a monstrous
undertaking to advance the money for
the development of agriculture, I would
remind him of the millions allocated
under the Electricity Act of 1926. There
was no question at that time as to the
accuracy of accounts. The question of
compensation to people removed from
their professional positions, the question
of payment for transformation of
machinery in order to bring about the
standard currency were lumped together
in the provision of money under that
Measure. The right hon. and gallant
Gentleman professes to be willing to
agree to spending money on co-operative
methods and is not prepared t support
the conditioning, parts of this Bill. 1
would remind him that the -Electricity
Act, in addition to introducing more
scientific methods, also introduced con-
ditioning in regard to the electricity
supply of the country. I suggest to Mem-
bers on the other side, who are so de-
sirous of being accurate in the allocation
of the £4,500,000, that they should en-
deavour to cast their minds back three
or four years when they were shepherd-
ing a Measure of a similar character, but
one of far greater importance from the
financial point of view, through this
House and supporting the Minister in
regard to principles which they them-
selves had already laid down.
Major MUBRHEAD: An hon. Member
opposite raised a (protest against the
waste of time. I protest against the
waste of money, and I suggest to him
that we join hands and. form an anti-
waste 'society. We are on common
ground. There is just as. much connec-
tion between time and money
6.0 p.m. as there is between demon-
stration farms and the re-
clamation of land. If you can put the two
last mentioned subjects into one section,,
surely we can put time and money into.
No. 55
D


363
Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMON'S (iUtilisation) Bill.
354
[Major Muirhead.]
one society. I hope the hon. Member
will accept my invitation to join me. The
trouble about the reclamation of land
seems to be that the Minister of Agri-
culture is thinking in terms of a by-gone
age. That is rather characteristic of the
party opposite. They get certain well-
worn old tags into their head and keep
on grinding them out time after time,
year after year, generation after genera-
tion, regardless of the fact that the con-
ditions which originally istarted them
have long since passed away. Reclama-
tion of land, tied cottages, security for
the farmer are things that had their
vogue years and years ago, but the party
opposite keep on grinding them out,
although the conditions which originally
started them have entirely changed.
That is the position in regard to the
reclamation of land.
The Minister of Agriculture is thinking
in terms of an age when the requirements
of the population pressed very hardly
upon the means of production. The
people were always wanting more food,
and one of the problems was the cultiva-
tion of land to provide that food. The
needs of the people were pressing upon
the means of production. The situation
has now completely altered. The needs
of production are now pressing very
severely upon the means of marketing
economically the stuff that is produced.
In days gone Iby it was no doubt a very
estimable thing to reclaim land which
had never IBeen cultivated and to bring it
into cultivation, because that catered for
the needs of the moment. To-day, the
question is not that we want more land
cultivated, but that we need to arrange
a system by which the products of the
land can be sold profitably. The eleva-
tors in Canada have been bulging with
corn. Why were the elevators not
drained ? Because they could not be
drained economically. The economic
situation of the world did not allow those
elevators to be drained economically.
Dr. ADDISON: On a point of Order.
May I suggest that on this Amendment
we ought not to have a wide, sweeping
discussion on the whole purposes of the
Bill?
Mr. C. WILLIAMS: On that point of
vOrder, may I observe that two speeches
were made on the other side which went
extremely wide, and I submit that we are
entitled to make an answer'?
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : I called hon.
Members to order and pointed out that
we were getting exceedingly wide from
the subject matter of the Amendment,
but when statements are made one has
to give some little latitude in reply. I
can only appeal to hon. Members not to
abuse that latitude, but to keep some-
what within the limits of the Amend-
ment.
Major MUIRHEAD: I very much
regret if I have in any way wandered out-
side the limits of discussion. I do not
object to the Minister of Agriculture
raising the point of Order, despite the
fact that two hon. Members on his own
side went rather wide of the subject.
Mr. TOWN END : May I point out that
m your Railing you did not state that
two hon. Members on this side had
travelled rather widely 1
Major MUIRHEAD: I have no doubt
that those two hon. Members tried his
patience very much and that he has adop-
ted the common form of venting his wrath
upon a third and comparatively innocent
party. We consider that in regard to
demonstration farmis we have sufficient
already and that the Minister of Agricul-
ture can get all the information that he
wants from those that are in existence.
But whether that is so or not, a demon-
stration farm can be conducted per-
fectly soundly, and it can teach
lessons which need to' be taught,
not merely lessons of production
but lessons of economic production.
That is not so with regard to the reclama-
tion of land. You may reclaim and
drain land but it certainly does not
demonstrate anything which is in keeping
with the economic tendencies of the day.
That is a fundamental reason why these
two things should be divided, the demon-
stration farm can be, ought to be and
probably will be used definitely to teach
lessons on which we are concentrating
our gaze to-day. The reclamation of
land will run absolutely counter to all
the main economic tendencies of the
present moment.
Viscount CRANBORNE: When I was
listening to the right hon. Gentleman it
seemed to me that he shifted his ground


"279 Agricultural Land 10 Febri
constantly during his opposition to the
Amendment. In the first place, he said,
in his nicest possible way, Please do
not separate these two matters, although
they really overlap. You may very easily
reclaim some land and afterwards you
may need to use it as a demonstration
farm." Further on, I understood the
right hon. Gentleman to say that not
more than £500,000 would be required
for the demonstration farm. Therefore
we were left to the obvious conclusion
that there would be £4/500,000 to be spent
on reclaiming land. That led to the
further question, why was this reclama-
tion of land to take place, and I under-
stood him to say that one of the main
purposes was to give employment to the
unemployed. He said that it was rather
shocking on our part to oppose the re-
clamation of land, when there was such
serious unemployment. That led to the
further question, what men were to be
JtY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 280
employed. Not obviously, men from the
agricultural districts, because there is
very little unemployment there. They
must be men brought from the towns. It
seems to me a very absurd thing that
we should bring men from the towns and
employ them in the reclamation of land
which is at present uneconomic. When
we make a proposition to protect the
industries and to give men work at their
own job hon. Members opposite say that
it is the greatest mistake, and that it
is uneconomic, but they now come for-
ward and make a proposition to spend
large sums of money on. the reclamation
of absolutely uneconomic land. It is a
very ridiculous proposal, and I hope
that the House will not accept it.
Question put, That the word sec-
tions stand part of the Bill."
The House divided: Ayes, 269;
Noes, 190.
[ 8 Division No. 140.]
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hlllsbro')
Alpass, J. H.
Angell, Sir Norman
Arnott, John
Aske, Sir Robert
Attlee, Clement Richard
Ayles, Walter
Raker, John (Wolverhampton, Bliston)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Barnes, Alfred John
Barr, James
Batey, Joseph
Bellamy, Albert
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South)
Benson, G.
Blindell, James
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Broad, Francis Alfred
Srockway, A. Fenner
Bromfleld, William
Bromley, J.
Brooke, W.
Brothers, M.
Brown, Ernest (Lelth)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)
Buchanan, G.
Burgess, F. G.
Burg In, Dr. E. L.
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Caine, Derwent Hall-
Cameron, A. G.
Cape, Thomas
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Charleton, H. C.
Chater, Daniel
Cluse, W. S.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Compton, Joseph
Cove, William G.
Cripps, Sir Stafford
Daggar, George
Dallas, George
AYES.
Dalton, Hugh
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Day, Harry
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Dukes, C.
Ede, James Chuter
Edmunds, J. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Egan, W. H.
Elmley, Viscount
Foot, Isaac
Freeman, Peter
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Gibbins, Joseph
Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley)
Gill, T. H.
Gillett, George M.
Glassey, A. E.
Gossling, A. G.
Gould, F.
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.)
Granville, E.
Gray, Mliner
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Griffith, F. KIngsley (Mlddlesbro' W.)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Groves, Thomas E.
Grundy, Thomas W.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Hardie, George D.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Hastings, Dr. Somervllle
Haycock, A. W.
Hayday, Arthur
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)
Henderson, W. W. (Mlddx., Enfield)
Herriotts, J.
Hirst, G. H. (York yv.R. Wentworth)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
[6.10 p.m.
Hoffman, P. C.
Hollins, A.
Hopkln, Daniel
Hore-Bellsha, Leslie
Horrabin, J. F.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfleld)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Isaacs, George
Jenkins, Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Johnston, Thomas
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)
Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Klnley, J.
Kirkwood, D.
Knight, Holford
Lang, Gordon
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Lathan, G.
Law, Albert (Bolton)
Law, A. (Rossendale)
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybrldge)
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Leach, W.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Lees, J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Lloyd, C. Ellis
Logan, David Gilbert
Longbottom, A. W.
Longden, F.
Lunn, William
Macdonald, Gordon (Inee)
MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)
McElwee, A.
McEntee, V. L.
McKlnlay, A.
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
McShane, John James
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Mansfield, W.
Marcus, M.
No. 55


282 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
Markham, S. F.
Marley, J.
Marshall, Fred
Mathers, George
Matters, L. W.
Melville, Sir James
Messer, Fred
Mills. J. E.
Milner, Major J.
Montague, Frederick
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Morley, Ralph
Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Mort, D. L.
Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwlck)
Muff, G.
Muggeridge, H. T.
Murnln, Hugh
Naylor, T. E.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Noel Baker, P. J.
Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)
Oldfield, J. R.
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)
Palin, John Henry.
Paling, Wilfrid
Palmer, E. T.
Perry, S. F.
Peters, Dr. Sidney John
Pethlck-Lawrence, F. W.
Picton-Turbervill, Edith
Pole, Major D. G.
Potts, John S.
Price, M. P.
Pybus, Percy John
Quibell, D. F. K.
Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel.
Albery, Irving James
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.)
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Astor, M&J. Hon. John J.(Kent, Dover)
Atholl, Duchess of
Atkinson, C.
Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)
Bainlel, Lord
Beaumont, M. W.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon
Betterton, Sir Henry B.
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)
Birchall. Major Sir John Dearman
Bird, Ernest Roy
Boothby, R. J. G.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.
Boyce, Leslie
Bracken, B.
Brass, Captain Sir William
Briscoe, Richard George
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'thM'd., Hexham)
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Buchan, John
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Butler, R. A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Campbell, E. T.
Carver, Major W. H.
Castle Stewart, Earl of
Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Cayzer, Maj.SIr Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Blrm.,W.)
lathbone, Eleanor
Raynes, W. R.
Richards, R.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Ritson, J.
Romeril, H. G.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Rothschild, J. de
Rowson, Guy
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Sanders, W. S.
Sawyer, G. F.
Scott, James
Scrymgeour, E.
Scurr, John
Sexton, Sir James
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Sherwood, G. H.
Shield, George William
Shlels, Dr. Drummond
Shillaker, J. F.
Shinwell, E.
Short, Alfred (Wednesburv)
Simmons, C. J.
Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rctherhlthe)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)
Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Snell, Harry
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Sorensen, R.
Stamford, Thomas W.
Stephen, Campbell
NOES.
Chapman. Sir S.
Christie, J. A.
Clydesdale, Marquess of
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George
Cohen, Major J. Brunei
Colman, N. C. D.
Colville, Major D. J.
Courtauld, Major J. 8.
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.
Cranborne, Viscount
Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.
Crcft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Lindsey,Gainsbro)
Croom-Johnson, R. P.
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)
Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Dalkeith, Earl of
Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Davles, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Dawson, Sir Philip
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
Duckworth, G. A. V.
Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
Eden, Captain Anthony
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
England, Colonel A.
Ersklne, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s-M.)
Everard, W. Lindsay
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Ferguson, Sir John
Fermoy, Lord
Flelden, E. B.
Flson, F. G. Claverlng
Ford, Sir P. J.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Gault, Lleut.-Col. A. Hamilton
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Strachey, E. J. St. Loe
Sullivan, J.
Sutton, J. E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Thurtle, Ernest
Tinker, John Joseph
Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J.
Townend, A. E.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Vaughan, David
Viant, S. P.
Walkden, A. G.
Walker, J.
Wallace, H. W.
Watkins, F. C.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh, James (Paisley)
West, F. R.
Westwood, Joseph
White, H. G.
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Wise, E. F.
Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
Young, R. S. (Islington, North)
tellers for the ayesi
Mr. Parkinson and Mr. Hayes.
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Gower, Sir Robert
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Gritten, W. G. Howard
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Gunston. Captain D. W.
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Hammersley, S. S.
Hanbury, C.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Haslam, Henry C.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)
Hurd, Percy A.
Hurst, Sir Gerald B.
Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Klndersley, Major G. M.
Knox, Sir Alfred
Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)
Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)
Lelghton, Major B. E. P.
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
Lymlngton, Viscount
McConnell, Sir Joseph
Macqulsten, F. A.
Making. Brigadier-General E.
Margesson, Captain H. D.
Marjoribanks, Edward
Meller, R. J.
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd


284 Agricultural Land
HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
Millar, J. D.
Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.
Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)
Muirhead, A. J.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)
O'Neill, Sir H.
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Peake, Capt. Osbert
Penny, Sir George
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Power, Sir John Cecil
Pownall, Sir Assheton
Purbrick, R.
Ramsbotham, H.
Rawson, "Sir Cooper
Reid, David D. (County Down)
Rentoul. Sir Gervais S.
Reynolds, Coi. Sir James
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Renneii
Ross, Major Ronald D.
Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farriham)
Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Savery, S. S.
Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Simms, Major-General J.
Sin Jair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast)
Skelton, A. N.
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
'Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Smithers, Waldron
Somerset, Thomas
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Soender-Clay, Colonel H.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)
Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Stuart. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Tlnne, J. A.
Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Todd, Capt. A. J.
Train, J.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Turton, Robert Hugh
Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.
Warrender, Sir Victor
Wayland, Sir William A.
Wells, Sydney R.
Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Windsor-dive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Withers, Sir John James
Womersley, W. J.
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavlst'k)
Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain
Euan Wallace.
Colonel ASHLEY: I beg to move, "in
page 19, line 24, after the word sums,"
to insert the words
11 not exceeding five million pounds in any-
one year."
This Amendment deals with para-
graph (d). The Sub-section says that
the Treasury may, 'subject to such con-
ditions as they may determine, issue out
of the Consolidated Fund of the United
Kingdom
" such sums as may be required by the
Minister for the purchase of land or the
erection of buildings for the provision of
smallholdings and for such other expenses
in connection with the provision of small-
holdings as may be agreed by the Treasury
and the Minister to be capital expendi-
ture."
The purpose of the Amendment is to
ensure that such expenditure shall not
exceed £5,000,000 in any one year. I
wish to limit the amount of money the
Minister may use in the provision of small-
holdings As the Clause stands, there is
no limit at all, the only person to decide
the amount is the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, who is to tell the Minister of
Agriculture what money be may have. I
object to giving this blank cheque to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. A limit
Bhould be inserted in the Bill. No one
can cay that £5,000,000 is not a consider-
able .-amount to spend in any one year.
In the other paragraphs, in this Sub-sec-
tion a limit is inserted. In the case of
the Agricultural Land Corporation a sum
of £1,000,000 is fixed, while in para-
graph (b) a limit of £5,000,000 is inserted ;
and in paragraph (c) there is a limit of
£700,000. I cannot see why the Minister
has deliberatelyit must have been done
deliberatelyomitted from the paragraph
dealing with smallholdings any financial
limit at all and should simply say that
he wants to spend what he can induce
the Treasury to allow him to spend. In
these days of financial stringency we
should be -careful in giving a blank
cheque, however desirable the object
may be.
As to whether the amount of £5,000,000
is reasonable, I think it is, having regard
to the -objects for which the money is
required, namely, the provision of small-
holdings and the money which the
Minister is to provide for those people
wh-o get smallholdings, which is not to
exceed £50 in the aggregate -or more than
30 shillings in any one week. I am almost
laishamed to put in such a vast sum, and
I think I am erring on the side, of gener-
osity. The real reason for my moving
the Amendment is not, however, to tie
the Minister down to £5,000,000 or to
£4,000,000, but to get some sum inserted
in this Clause. If in all the previous pro-
visions a definite sum has been inserted,
I do no-t see why we should not insert a
definite figure in the- provision which deals
with smallholdings.
The CHANCELLOR of the DUCHY
of LANCASTER (Mr. Attlee): I agree
with the right hon. and gallant Member
for the New Forest (Colonel Ashley) that
the amount of £5,000,000 is not at all an
ungenerous figure, but the objection to
fixing any amount at all is that it sets
up some sort of idea that we are going
to spend the same amount in each
successive year. The point is that we


363 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF
[Mr. Attlee.]
want to get the development of small-
holdings well on the way, and it may
develop much more rapidly in one year
than in another. There is no purpose
served by putting a figure like this into
the Bill. There is parliamentary con-
trol. We have to extract the money from
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Parlia-
ment may give a blank cheque, but the
Chancellor of the Exchequer has to get
it cashed somehow or another, and I
think the right hon. and gallant Member
will agree that my right hon. Friend is
not always ready to cash a cheque. Apart
from that, Parliament will be able to
exercise its voice in debate every year
when the Estimates are voted. I think it
much better to keep the matter flexible
and to leave the power in the hands of
this House rather than put in a fixed
annual sum.
Colonel ASHLEY: The Chancellor of
the Duchy of Lancaster has not answered
my question, why if you put in sums in
paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) you do not
put in a sum in paragraph (d) 1
Mr. AiTTL.EE It is because we con-
sider this is rather a different subject
matter. The smallholdings policy may
develop greatly in a particular year, we
cannot say to what size it will grow.
There is a distinct different between the
matters dealt with in this Clause.
Sir BAiSilL PETO : The answer of the
Chancellor of the Duchy has not satisfied
my objections to giving this unlimited
power of expenditure to the Government
under this Clause. So far we have had
no indication whatever as to the expendi-
ture which the Government contemplate
in any one year, or altogether, except
that in the financial memorandum to the
Bill we find that the expenditure will
" depend on the unsatisfied demand, but it
is estimated that on an average the capital
cost of every 1,000 holdings may be
£1,100,000."
It may be more or less, but as to how
many thousands of people or how many
millions of pounds of expenditure, the
House has had not the slightest idea.
We have had no reply to the Amendment
except the statement of the 'Chancellor of
the Duchy, that if the House abandons
its control over finance there is always
the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. ATTLEE: I said precisely the
opposite. I said that besides the Chan-
COMMON'S (iUtilisation) Bill. 354
cellor of the Exchequer the House of
Commons will keep control over finance.
Sir B. PETO : I apologise if I have,
misrepresented the hon. Gentleman, but
we are trying at this moment to keep-
control of finance to the House of Com-
mons, and if we give an absolutely blank
cheque and allow this Bill to be con-
ducted by Addison, Attlee and Company
without the slightest check, I do not
know where we can look for any estimate
of the expenditure which the country
may be incurring unless we look to the
speech of the right hon. Member for
Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)
on the Second Reading of the Bill. He
warmly commended the Bill. At the very
outset of his speech he said that it was
a Measure :
" after my own heart "
and towards the end he said :
"It is a real, bold, strong Bill with the;
cash behind it."
What is the amount behind the small-
holdings policy I do not know, unless
one can gather it from the observaticns-
of the right hon. Member for Carnarvon
Boroughs. He said that if we raised a
loan of £200,000,000 for reclamation of
land it would cost the country £5,000,000>
a year, because we should probably lose
per cent. That is quite a small matter.
He contemplated a loan of £200,000,000.
But he went on to say:
"You have -a debt of £7,000,000,000 for
destruction. The French spent from
£1,000,000,000 to £2,000,000,000 in repairing
the devastation of the War. Cannot we
spend £200,000,000 on our .... country-
side? "[Official Report, 18th November,
1930; col. 310, Vol. 245.]
That clearly shows that the right hon.
Gentleman, who is believed to be really
the godfather of this Bill, had very big
ideas in his mind, when he was blessing
the Bill at its christening, as to what
the Government were going to spend. If
we cannot be told how much the Govern-
ment are going to spend, cannot we at
least be told whether, in dealing with
this huge figure of £1,100,000 for 1,000
smallholders, they are to be financed by
a loan or in the normal way. Last
Thursday this question was raised on the
Adjournment, and the Chancellor of the
Exchequer then said to the House:
" The policy of the Government, as I have
repeatedly stated, and as I stated on the
last occasion yesterday, is that we are pre-
pared to foster and encourage every sound


287 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill.
242
and economic scheme of .national develop-
ment, hut such schemes will be financed as
they have been financed in the past. There
is no ideait is almost a humiliation to
have to say itof putting forward a spec-
tacular national development loan. Any
scheme will have to be, first of all, very
carefully considered and thoroughly sifted,
and if the conclusion is reached that it
.would be to the national advantage that
such a scheme should be promoted, then the
finance of the scheme will be found in the
ordinary way."'[Official Deport, 5th
February, 1931; col's. 2256-7, Vol. 247.]
I want to know whether this scheme for
placing unemployed people by the
thousand on the land is one of the
schemes that have been carefully
sifted," and whether it is to be financed
in the ordinary way out of current ex-
penditure or in the way that the right
hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs
had clearly in his mind, that is', by a
spectacular loan. Clearly a very spec-
tacular loan would be required if the Gov-
ernment contemplated putting 100,000
people on (smallholding. It would be
real Carnarvon finance. We are entitled
to a good deal more information as to
the scope of the Government's proposals.
I wonder why they have been so obstinate
in refusing to give us any indication of
how many thousands of people they pro-
pose to put on the land and how many
millions' this scheme will cost the country.
We have been refused that information
in Committee and again to-day. I cannot
help thinking that if they named any
figure, it would be isuch a small figure
compared with the 2,500,000 unemployed,
that the Bill would seem almost ridicu-
lous as a means of dealing with the un-
employment problem. I beg the Minister
to let us know the average number of
people that he expects to put on the land
in a year. I know that the number
cannot be exactly the same every year.
But is the average number to be 1,000 a
year costing £1,000,000, or 10,000 costing
£10,000,000, or 50,000 costing £50,000,000?
Any of those figures would make a very
small inroad on the total of unemployed.
Surely we are entitled to know whether
the money is to be raised in the ordinary
way out of annual revenue, or whether
it is to be left as a debt to posterity.
Mr. C. WILLIAMS: The hon. Baronet
seems to think that the Govrenment may
have some idea in their minds. Those
of us who have listened to the Govern-
ment speeches on this and every other
subject will know that the Government
rarely have any idea in their minds, and
that on this particular occasion the Gov-
ernment mind is even more barren than
usual. That is saying a very great deal.
All that the Chancellor of the Duchy
said was that this particular Clause was
for, the purpose of an emergency. Even
the Chancellor of the Duchy, who has
a comparatively limited knowledge of
what is going on to-day, must know that
the really great national emergency is
not the emergency of trying to produce
more food, but of trying to save the tax-
payer's money above everything else.
We have been, told that there are
Treasury safeguards and all that sort of
thing, but we have a Chancellor of the
Exchequer who has very little control of
the Governmentnever has there been
one with less. The only piece of informa-
tion we have had in the Debates here
and in Committee, as to what the Gov-
ernment imagined they were going to do,
was the quotation by the Minister of a
certain county called Hampshire where,
in the course of four years, four of these
(smallholdings had been provided. I
believe Hampshire is a most estimable
county and I have no doubt that the
Small Holdings Act is administered there
in an excellent way, and that everything
possible is done to get people to go on
the land. Four smallholdings in four
years, in probably one of the best county
council systems in the country! That
was all that the Minister could show as
to the demand for these smallholdings.
Coming to the Amendment, why in the
world my right hon. Friend wants to
give the Government £5,000,000 I do not
know. Even the extravagant Minister
of Agriculture, when the same Amend-
ment was proposed in Committee, said
that the sum was very generous. If he
thinks it generous, the House may rest
assured that the proposal is not merely
generous, but a gross extravagance. In
other words, the Minister himself does
not for one minute expect to use any-
thing near that sum. Personally I
should have moved that the sum be
£500,000. That would be quite ample
for the present Administration. I would
not willingly entrust them with £5 for
this or any other purpose. I do not
suppose that I can move an Amendment
to the Amendment. If it were possible,
I would like to omit the words million
pounds." I believe the Bill will result
in complete waste and that we shall not


363
Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMON'S
(iUtilisation) Bill.
354
[Mr. Williams.]
get any value or return for this money.
It is a step in the right direction to set
up a limit on this occasion, but the limit
is far too high. Although I suppose I
shall support the Amendment in the
Lobby, because one cannot look a gift
horse in the fact too closely, I do so
under the strongest protest. The
Amendment shows the type of mind we
have all too prevalent -in the House on
many sidesthe type of mind of
Minister and ex-Minister who cannot
realise that there is only one essential
thing, and that that is to cut down ex-
penditure on every occasion to absolute
rock bottom.
Mr. CR00M-J0HNS0N: I want to
refer to one point which, though it may
be regarded by the Chancellor of the
Duchy as a small point, is to me a point
of the utmost importance. The hon.
Gentleman has told us that there is no
need for any sum to be mentioned here
because there are two safeguards, first,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
second, Parliamentary control. I have
not been long in the House, but in
common with most new Members I have
watched its proceedings with close
attention for a number of years, and I
have watched in particular to find what
form of Parliamentary control exists
over the expenditure of money by the
Government of the day. The situation is
this: The control of this House over
expenditure has diminished and is
diminishing and ought to be very largely
increased. Whenever any Amendment is
moved which has the effect of keeping
expenditure within due limits, some
reason or other, differing from Amend-
ment to Amendment, is given as an
answer. The ordinary Private Member
of the House who is desirous of doing
his duty at a moment when there is a
crying demand in all parts of the com-
munity for economy in our public life,
finds himself without any influence,
without any sort of control over national
expenditure.
To give an answer of the sort we have
heard to an Amendment which suggests
the wildly extravagant sum of £5,000,000
as the amount to be spent, is really to
talk in a world of complete unreality.
Much as I dislike the figure in the
Amendment, I shall be forced to vote for
it because it seems to me that the time
has come when all parties, if they are
going to do anything with regard to
expenditure, can do it only by attempt-
ing to clip the wings of Ministers,
no matter to what party they belong.
Sir ERNEST SHEPPERSON: I, for
the same reasons as those given by
previous speakers from this side, do not
accept as a sufficient security against
extravagance, the two safeguards
mentioned by the Minister. The purpose
of these smallholdings is to try to
remedy unemployment, to some extent,
and, as the hon. Member for Barnstaple
(Sir B. Peto) has mentioned, 1,000
unemployed men from the industrial
centres will cost £1,000,000. Without
some restriction of the kind proposed
there seems to be no limit to the number
of unemployed men who can apply and
be accepted for smallholdings. When we
have the unemployment figures going up
by from 10,000 to 20,000 a week, it will
be seen that to get even one week's
increase of unemployed men on to the
land would represent a cost of £10,000,000
or more. If we have not a limit of this
kind what is to he the total cost to the
Exchequer 1 Under Clause 7, as amended,
this provision is also available for agri-
cultural workers. No doubt there will
be a very great demand from unemployed
men in the towns, if they find that they
can go down to the country and that they
will be offered a house and a holding
and, directly or indirectly, a sum of
about £1,000. When they go there they
will have no money of their own but
they will take on these smallholdings,
and after a year or so they will probably
lose whatever money has been given to
them. They will be no worse off in the
endthey will have nothing in the end,
but then, they had nothing in the
beginning. I anticipate that there vill
be a large number of applicants from
the towns, anxious to try country life
and to have a comfortable year or two,
at the expense of the State. In the
interests of the taxpayer I support the
Amendment.
Question put, That those words be
there inserted in the Bill."
The Bouse proceeded to a Division.
Sir WILLIAM LANE MITCHELL
(seated and covered) : On a point of
Order. Some of us have been unable to
get through the press of Members at the


2&1 Agricultural La,nd 10 February 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 292
entrance to the Division Lobby in order Mr. SPEAKER : I cannot alter the time
to vote. At least a dozen Members are allowed for a Division,
waiting to get in now, and the doors The House divided: Ayes, 180;
have been locked. Noes, 273.
Division No. 141.]
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel.
Alnsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles
Albery, Irving James
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.)
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent,. Dover)
Atholl, Duchess of
Atkinson, C.
Balllle-Hamilton. Hon. Charles W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)
Balnlel, Lord
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon
Betterton, Sir Henry B.
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)
Blrchall, Major Sir John Dearman
Bird, Ernest Roy
Boothby, R. J. G.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart
Boyce, Leslie
Bracken, B.
Brass, Captain Sir William
Briscoe, Richard George
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)
Brown, Brlg.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)
Buchan, John
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Bullock, Captain Malcolm
Butler, R. A.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Campbell, E. T.
Carver, Major W. H.
Castle Stewart, Earl of
Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.SIr J.A.(Blrm.,W.)
Chapman, Sir S.
Christie, J. A.
Clydesdale, Marquess of
Cobb, Sir Cyril
CockeriM, Brig.-General Sir George
Cohen, Major J. Brunei
Colman, N. C. D.
Colville, Major D. J.
Courtauld, Major J. S.
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.
Cranborne, Viscount
Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Crookshank, Capt. H. C.
Croom-Johnson, R. P.
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)
Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Dalkeith. Earl of
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Davies, Ma]. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovij)
Dawson, Sir Philip
AYES.
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
Duckworth, G. A. V.
Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
Eden, Captain Anthony
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
England, Colonel A.
Ersklne, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s-M.)
Everard, W.. Lindsay
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Ferguson, Sir John
Flelden, E. B.
FIson, F. G. Clavering
Ford, Sir P. J.
Forestler-Walker, Sir L.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Gower, Sir Robert
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Hanbury, C.
Hcnnon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Haslam, Henry C.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Hurst, Sir Gerald B.
Hutchison, Maj.-Gcn. Sir R.
Iveagh, Countess of
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Kindersley, Major G. M.
Knox, Sir Alfred
Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton)
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
Little, Sir Ernest Graham
Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon Godfrey
Lymlngton, Viscount
McConnell, Sir Joseph
Macquisten, F. A.
Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham)
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Margesson, Captain H. D.
Meller, R. J.
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Millar, J. D.
Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Monseil, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.
Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)
Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)
Muirhead, A. J.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
[6.49 p.m.
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Peake, Capt. Osbert
Penny, Sir George
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Pownall, Sir Assheton
Ramsbotham, H.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Reid, David D. (County Down)
Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.
Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Salmon, Major I.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Savery, S. S.
Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Simms, Major-General J.
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U.t Belfst.)
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Smfth-Carlngton, Neville W.
Smithers, Waldron
Somerset, Thomas
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Tinne, J. A.
Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Train, J.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Turton, Robert Hugh
Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir a. Lambert
Warrender, Sir Victor
Wayland, Sir William a.
Wells, Sydney R.
Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Wlndsor-Cllve, Lieut.-Colonel George
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Wither* Sir John James
Womersley, W. J.
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavist'k)
Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain
Sir George Bowyer.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgle M.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro*)
Alpass, J. H.
Angell, Sir Norman
Arnott, John
Aske, Sir Robert
Attlee, Clement Richard
Ayles, Walter
NOES.
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Barnes, Alfred John
Barr, James
Batey, Joseph
Bellamy, Albert
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South)
Benson, G.
Bllndell, James
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Broad, Francis Alfred
Brockw-ay, A. Fenner
Bromfield, William
Bromley, J.
Brooke, W.
Brothers, M.
Brown, Ernest (Leith)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)
Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West)
Buchanan, G.


294
Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
Burgess, F. G.
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Calne, Derwent Hall-
Cameron. A. G.
Cape, Thomas
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Charleton, H. C.
Chater, Daniel
Clarke, J. S.
Cluse, W. S.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Compton, Joseph
Cove, William G.
Cripps, Sir Stafford
Daggar, George
Dallas, George
Dalton, Hugh
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Raynes, W. R.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Richards, R.
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Kinley, J.
Kirkwood, D.
Knight, Holford
Lang, Gordon
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Lathan, G.
Law, Albert (Bolton)
Law, A. (Rossendale)
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybrldge)
Lawson, John James
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Leach, W.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Lees, J.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Day, Harry
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Dukes, C.
Ede, James Chuter
Edmunds, J. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Egan, W. H.
Elmley, Viscount
Foot, Isaac
Forgan, Dr. Robert
Freeman, Peter
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Gibbins, Joseph
Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley)
Gill, T. H.
Gillett, George M.
Glassey, A. E.
Gossling. A. G.
Gould, F.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.)
Granville, E.
Gray, Mliner
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Griffith, F. KIngsley (Middlesbro* W.)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Groves, Thomas E.
Grundy, Thomas W.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Hardie, George D.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Hastings, Dr. Somervllle
Haycock, A. W.
Hayday, Arthur
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Lloyd, C. Ellis
Logan, David Gilbert
Longbottom, A. W.
Longden, F.
Lunn, William
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Ritson, J.
Romerfl, H. G.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Rothschild, J. de
Rowson, Guy
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Sanders, W. S.
Sawyer, G. F.
Scott, James
Scrymgeour, E.
Scurr, John
Sexton, Sir James
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Sherwood, G. H.
Shield, George William
Shlels, Dr. Drummond
Shillaker, J. F.
Shinwell, E.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
MacDonald, Rf. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Simmons, C. J.
McEntee, V. L. Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)
McKinlay, A. Sitch, Charles H.
MacLaren, Andrew Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Smith. Frank (Nuneaton)
Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Smith, Rennie (Penlstone)
McShane, John James Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Mansfield, W.
Marcus, M.
Markham. S. F.
Mar ley, J.
Marshall, Fred
Mathers, George
Matters, L. W.
Maxton, James
Melville, Sir James
Messer, Fred
Mills, J. E.
Milner, Major J.
Montague, Frederick
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Morley, Ralph
Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Mort, D. L.
Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwlck)
Muff, G.
Muqgeridqe, H. T.
Murnln, Hugh
Naylor, T. E.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Noel Baker, P. J.
Snell, Harry
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Sorensen, R.
Stamford, Thomas W.
Stephen, Campbell
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Strachey, E. J. St. Loe
Sullivan, J.
Sutton, J. E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Thurtle, Ernest
Tinker, John Joseph
Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J.
Townend, A. E.
Vaughan, David
Vlant, S. P.
Walkden, A. G.
Walker, J.
Wallace, H. W.
Watklns, F. C.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline).
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh, James (Paisley)
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Oldfleld. J. R.
Henderson, W. W. (Mlddx., Enfield) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Herriotts, J. Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)
Hirst, G. H. (York W.R. Wentworth) Palln, John Henry
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Hoffman, P. C.
Hollfns, A.
Hopkln, Daniel
Hore-Bellsha, Leslie
Horrabln, J. F.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Isaacs, George
Jenkins, Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Johnston, Thomas
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Palmer. E. T
Parkinson, John Allen (Wlgan)
Perry, S. F.
Peters, Dr. Sidney John
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Picton-Turbervill, Edith
Pole, Major D. G.
Potts, John S.
Price, M. P.
Pybus, Percy John
Quibell, D. J. K.
Ramsav. T. B. Wilson
Rathbone, Eleanor
West, F. R.
Westwood, Joseph
White, H. G.
Whiteley, Wilfrid (BIrm., Ladywood)
Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Williams. T. (York, Don Valley)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllffe)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Wise, E. F.
Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to move,
in page 19, line 39, to leave out Sub-sec-
tion (2).
TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Mr. Hayes and Mr. Paling.
I move this Amendment for the purpose
of ascertaining from the Financial
Secretary to the Treasury some more


295
Agricultural Lancl
10 February 1931
satisfactory reasons than those which we
were able to obtain in the Committee
upstairs, as to why borrowing for the
purposes of this Bill is limited to borrow-
ing by means of terminable annuities for
a term not exceeding 20 years. The
Treasury have various devices for
borrowing, both short-term and long-
term, and they have selected for the
purposes of this Bill what, in the first
place, appears to be one of the more
expensive forms of borrowing. It can
only be justified if 20 years is the full
life of the security on which the money
is borrowed. Presumably, 20-year ter-
minable annuities involve interest and
sinking fund, the sinking fund making
up the capital in 20 years, and that,
inevitably, means a high rate of interest.
If that is the reason of these provisions,
does not that, in fact, mean
7.0 p.m. that anything under this Bill
which is financed out of bor-
rowing will be charged a very high rate
of interest ? Is that object the Treasury
policy in regard to the administration of
this Bill ? As the main object of this
Amendment is exploratory, it must de-
pend on what the Financial Secretary to
the Treasury says in reply, and what ex-
planation he gives us as to whether we
press this Amendment to a Division or
not. I move my Amendment in order
that we may fully understand what is in
the mind of the Treasury in this par-
ticular proposal in this part of the Bill.
The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the
TREASURY (Mr, Pethick-Lawrence): I
gladly respond to the invitation of the
right hon. Gentleman to give an explana-
tion of the policy involved in this Sub-
section. I imagine that his intention is
not to leave out the Sub-section, but to
get an explanation, and that he has
chosen the Parliamentary way of obtain-
ing it. There were two policies open to
the Government with regard to the
financial provisions of this Bill: they
could arrange that all the money required
from the taxpayer should be found
annually as it was needed to be forth-
coming, or, on the other hand, they could
arrange that the money should be bor-
rowed. My right hon. Friend decided
that, in the special circumstances of these
proposals where large capital sums were
involved, it would be unreasonable that
the whole amount should be found out of
the provision for the particular year in
which they were incurred. Taking all the
(Utilisation) Bill. 296
facts into account, he thought a compara-
tively short period ought to be imposed
for the repayment of the lo'an. While it
is true that some of these assets will last
considerably longer than 20 years, there
are other assets from the capital expendi-
ture on the smallholdings which will last
less than 20 years, and a figure of 20
years was arrived at as a reasonable com-
promise, taking all these facts into con-
sideration. It must be remembered that
there is a very definite precedent for that
figure of 20 years in the telephone bor-
rowing at the present time, and that pre-
cedent is embodied in this Bill.
The right hon. Gentleman seemed to
be under the impression, first of all, that
a very large amount of difference would
be made in the annual charge and,
secondly, that the period we were pro-
posing of '20 years amortisation in the
Bill would involve a very high charge
to the people for whom the facilities are
provided. Neither is borne out by the
facts. In the first place, supposing7 we
were to make it a very short number of
years, 40 instead of 20, which would be
far too high, the difference would not
be quite as 'great as some Members
would imagine. The rate of interest at
the present time, including sinking fund,
is about 7f per cent, on a 20 years'
basis, while on a 40 years' basis it would
be 5i per cent. That is taken on the
basis of a per cent, rate oif interest,
and the difference is not quite so great
as some Members would imagine. The
figures I have given will be found to be
correct.
The second point that the right hon.
Gentleman suggested was that the whole
of this amount would be imposed upon
the persons using these facilities. My
right hon. Friend beside me has never
disguised the fact that these provisions
are not expected to be entirely finan-
cially remunerative, and that there would
be. a charge upon the taxpayer. That
has been assumed on both sides of the
House, and what will happen will be
that, where these facilities are provided,
those persons receiving them will be ex-
pected to pay such an annual sum as
is reasonable in all the circumstances,
and that during the continuation of this
20 years' period the taxpayer will have
a certain margin to find. That is not
an unreasonable proposal because,
assuming that the 20 years are over,


298
Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill.
242
[Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.]
then there will still be 'Something coming
in from these facilities, and at that point
tlhe taxpayer will be obtaining an advan-
tage through the shortness of the amor-
tisation term. In other words, this is
not designed as a penalty for the indi-
vidual enjoying the facilities provided
under the Bill, but is a safeguard for
the future position of the State. It is
not reasonable, in the view of my right
hon. Friend the Chancellor o'f the Ex-
chequer, to postpone the payment of
these items too long. The figure of 20
years has been fixed as a reasonable
compromise in order to meet all the
requirements.
Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I beg leave to
withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Captain BOURNE: I beg to move, in
page 20, line 4, to leave out from the
word be" to the end of the Sub-
section.
I move this Amendment in order to
ask for an explanation from the Finan-
cial Secretary to the Treasury. As I
understand the scheme which is laid
down in this Clause for financing
these smallholdings, certain receipts will
be paid to the Ministry in respect of
the letting of the land which will be paid
into the Smallholdings and Allotments
Account. There will be a similar pay-
ment into the Smallholdings and Allot-
ments Account of Scotland. The an-
nuities which we have been discussing
under the last Sub-section will be de-
frayed out of these accounts, so that the
interest and sinking fund will be annually
defrayed, and
" in so far as not so defrayed, shall be de-
frayed out of moneys provided by Parlia-
ment for the service of the Ministry/'
I will take the English case, as it is
easier to state one case. The Clause
goes on to say that, if those moneys
are insufficient, the annuities shall be
" charged on and paid out of the Consoli-
dated Fund, or the growing produce there-
of."
Why are those last words put in? In
my view, which I believe is shared by
many hon. Members on this side of the
House, the provision of money over and
above what is received by the Minister
should be defrayed annually from the
Minister's Estimate. The Minister should
come to Parliament with his estimate
and ask for the amount of money neces-
sary and which he expects to spend that
year and that should be his limit unless
he comes to Parliament for a Supplemen-
tary Estimate. As this Clause is drafted,
it will be possible, in the event of there
being a deficit owing to the amount of
money voted to the Minister being in-
sufficient, to put a charge upon the Con-
solidated Fund without coming to Parlia-
ment. As the Financial Secretary to the
Treasury knows, there are certain charges
put upon the Consolidated Fund with the
express intention of making it impossible
to discuss them in this House except on
a substantive Motion. We are very
anxious to see that no part of this Bill
is put in that position, and that no
Government can undertake expenditure
which it has not to come to this House
to approve.
Captain DUGDALE: I beg to second
the Amendment.
Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE: I quite
understand the anxiety of the hon. and
gallant Member in moving this Amend-
ment, and I think that I can set his mind
entirely at rest. The intention of the
Government is precisely that which he
has in mind. He wishes to make sure
that any money which is required to make
up the deficit in any one year shall be
provided out of the Vote. These words
are added for a technical reason. The
Debt Commissioners, who are asked
under a previous Sub-section to provide
the money and to accept payment in the
form of terminable annuities, made it a
condition that they should have the
security of the Consolidated Fund behind
the security of the estimates for the year.
The hon. Member thinks that some re-
calcitrant Government might try to get
round the provision of Parliament and
place the burden upon the Consolidated
Fund. He has forgotten that, before the
Consolidated Fund could be used for that
purpose, the consent of the Auditor-
General would have to be obtained, and
no Government could go to the Auditor-
General for a consent of that kind. Even
if his consent were conceivably given in
any case, the whole matter would be
brought to the attention of Members of
Parliament in his report. Therefore, I
can assure the hon. Member that the (pro-
vision is exactly what he wishes to see,
and that these words are only added for


300 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
the technical reason which I have given
him and that there is no likelihood -of
evasion.
Captain BOURNE: In view of the ex-
planation, for which I am. very grateful
to the hon. Gentleman, I will ask leave
to withdraw my Amendment. He will
admit it is not very clear on the face of
it, and we wanted an adequate explana-
tion.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 23.(Treasury concurrence.)
Captain BOURNE: I beg to move, in
page 21, line 6, after the word <£ three,"
to insert the word six."
The reason I move this Amendment is
that this Ciause provides that the powers
of the Minister shall be exercised in
accordance with such conditions as may
be prescribed by the Treasury. This
applies to his powers under Clauses 2,
3, 9, and 12 of this Bill, but, with re-
gard to one of the most important
Clauses of this Bill, namely, Clause 6,
which may run into very large expendi-
ture, I do not find the condition that his
powers shall only be exercised by the
consent of the Treasury, and I want to
know why it has been left out. I have
never seen a Bill in which the consent
of the Treasury is so much asked as in
this Bill, but it is not asked with regard
to Clause 6. It seemed to me, therefore,
that, where this great amount of money
is going to be spent and where the
Treasury is asked to interfere so much,
a little more interference would not do
much harm.
Captain DUGDALE: I beg to second
the Amendment.
Dr. ADDISON: The reason why this
particular reference to the Treasury is
not inserted with regard to the powers
of the Minister to provide smallholdings
is that they are already exercised under
the existing Act. We take power under
the present Bill to exercise them under
the existing Act, and the arrangements
made are made with the concurrence of
the Treasury, so that the present practice
will continue. There is nothing new in
it, and the control of the Treasury is
already effectively exercised.
Amendment negatived.
Clause 24.(Application to Scotland.)
Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move in
page 21, line 26, after the word refer-
ence," to insert the words in Part II
of this Act."
This is a purely drafting Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in
page 22, line 36, after the word fee,"
to insert the words:
" the expression agricultural buildings '
means buildings .which are included in any
agricultural land and heritages as defined
in the Rating and Valuation (Apportion-
ment) Act, 1928."
This is consequential on an earlier
Amendment moved by the Minister of
Agriculture in order to bring Scotland
into line.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move in
page 22, line 37, after the word the,"
to insert the word u Chartered."
Since the Bill was introduced, the
Surveyors' Institution has become a char-
tered body; it is therefore necessary to>
insert this word.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In page
22, line 38, after the second word the,"
insert the word Chartered."[Mr..
Johnston.']
Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in
page 23, line 7, at the end, to insert the-
words:
"(g) Sub-section (3) of Section sixteen of
this Act shall apply with the substitution of
a reference to the Agriculture (Scotland)
Fund for any reference to the Smallholdings
Account."
This deals with the authorisation of the
expenditure on allotments. It has
already been approved so far as England
is concerned, and this brings Scotland
into line.
The following Amendment stood upon
the Order Paper: In page 23, line 18,
at the end, to insert the words
" (h) Where the Department in the exer-
cise of any power conferred on them by any
enactment erects a building on any land, in
accordance with plans and specifications
approved by the Department of Health for
Scotland, the provisions of any statutory
enactment, by-law, rule, regulation, or
other provision, under whatever authority
made, relating to the construction of new


302 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
[Mr. Johnston.]
buildings, shall, in so far as inconsistent
with such plans and specifications, not apply
to such building as aforesaid;
(i) Sub-section (3) of Section eighteen of
the Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919,
shall have effect as if for the purpose there-
in specified there were substituted the
following purposes :
(a) the provision of allotments or allot-
ment gardens and the purchase or leas-
ing and equipment of land therefor;
(b) the making of grants or loans to
local authorities or to societies or associa-
tions having as their object or one of their
objects the provision of allotments or allot-
ment gardens in aid of expenditure by
such authorities, societies, or associations
in connection with the provision of allot-
ments or allotment gardens."[Mr. W.
Adamson. ]
Major ELLIOT: May 1 ask the Under-
Secretary of State how far he proposes
to move this Amendment. Perhaps he
would move paragraph (h) alone so that
we can consider that, because it is quite
separate from paragraph (i).
Mr. JOHNSTON: The purpose of this
Amendment is to give the Department
power and facilities for standardising
their buildings. In England this power
is not required, because the Government
have already power to override small
petty by-laws on their land. In Scot-
land, we have such power under other
Smallholdings Acts, and we require it
here. There has been an extraordinary
instance of the necessity for giving this
power where, on the opposite sides of
the same road, different by-laws obtain.
That makes the operations of the De-
partment exceedingly difficult. It is the
Department of Health, and not the De-
partment of Agriculture, which must be
satisfied in these matters.
Mr. SPEAKER: The Amendment on
the Paper will have to be divided into
two, and the Under-Secretary of State
will have to move, as an Amendment to
the proposed Amendment, to insert para-
graph (i) after the words last inserted.
Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in
page 23, line 18, at the end, to insert the
words:
" (h) Where the Department in the exer-
cise of -any power conferred on them by,any
enactment erects a building on any land, in
accordance with plans and specifications
approved by the Department of Health for
Scotland, the provisions of any statutory
enactment, by-law, rule, regulation, or other
provision, under whatever authority made,
relating to the construction of new build-
ings, shall, in so far as inconsistent with
such plans and specifications, not apply to
such building as aforesaid; "
Major ELLIOT: No such drastic
words have ever been laid before the
House of Commons. The suggestion is
not merely the overriding of some petty
by-laws, which is a very perfunctory way
of describing our local government
statutes, but it may apply to every
Statute passed by this House.
Mr. JOHNSTON : The hon. and gallant
Gentleman himself got these powers in
1925 in the Housing ('Scotland) Act.
Major ELLIOT: We were dealing there
specifically with the question of housing,
but this is a suggestion that the Minister
of Agriculture should, in the erection of
any of these smallholdings buildings, not
be required to comply with any of the
regulations with which every private
farmer has to comply. If he cared to
put up a cow-shed which did not comply
with the specifications of the Milk and
Dairies Act, that Act would not apply
to him. He could also put up a house
for an agricultural labourer without sani-
tary accommodation, water or drainage,
and would not be obliged to observe
those things which are applied to a pri-
vate landlord or owner-occupier or any-
body else who puts up any such building.
It is true, as the Under-Secretary of
State says, that any buildings would have
to be approved by the Department of
Health. That sounds very fine and large,
but who is the Department of Health 1
The omnipotent Pooh-Bah Secretary of
State is the Department. He comes
down one morning to breakfast, and says,
" My dear Mr. Adamson, I feel you are
being seriously hampered in your build-
ing operations by the laws which have
recently been passed by the House of
Commons." Mr. Secretary Adamson
says, Willie "or words to that effect
" I fully agree, my boy." One says
to the other, If you bring forward a
submission in due course, I shall be glad
to authorise it." Since the Lord Chan-
cellor in one of Gilbert and Sullivan's
operas, no more comprehensive Com-
mittee has been conceived.
Mir. MacLAR EN : Scottish Home Rule.


304 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
Major ELLIOT: Even under Scottish
Home Rule, the Secretary of State will
have to be responsible to the Parliament
of Scotland. It is suggested that no
statutory enactments shall apply to the
Minister. I remember the reasons which
have caused this provision to be brought
forward. There was an occasion upon
which the Secretary of State, represented
by the Department of Health, was about
to serve an injunction on the Secretary
of State, as represented by the Depart-
ment of Agriculture, that the buildings
which the Secretary of State, as repre-
sented by the Department of Agriculture,
had put up did not satisfy the sanitary
regulations of the Secretary of State as
represented by the Department of
Health. That, however, was under the
salutory statutory enactments of this
House, which brought security to the
wretched people who are living in these
houses, which they will not have if this
provision is passed. The case is no
doubt on the files, and the Department
would be able to find it in a very short
time if they liked to delve into things
which are often better left unturned. The
Minister should really give some further
justification of the proposal which he
brings forward than he has done ; other-
wise, I cannot see, with every desire to
facilitate business, how we can let this
proposal pass without a Division. It is
the most far-reaching proposal which
could be brought before Parliament, and
it is not possible to say that it would
be to the good either of the tenants who
have to live in these buildings or of the
farming operations which may have to
be carried on in them.
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
site sides of a road, and it is desirable
that the Department of Health should
have the power to certify a certain stand-
ard of building. This would secure
uniformity and save the country expense
by standardisation. By-laws vary, and
that means that the Department must
vary its plans. As I have already said,
some local authorities require certain
kinds of washhouses and others do not;
and there are other variations of that
type. Personally, I do not think it is a
matter of very great importance. The
power wiill require to be exercised
perhaps only once in a decade. It will
be remembered by the hon. and gallant
Member that in the Housing Act of 1925
he asked for and got similar powers, and
if it is thought that the powers already
possessed by local authorities ought to he
safeguarded, so that the Department of
Health and not the Minister of Agricul-
ture must operate them, then we will not
fight about it. But I would point out
to the hon. and gallant Member and his
friends that they might perhaps consider
the advisability of letting this Amend-
ment go in and consider, before the Bill
goes to another place, in view of the
difficulties in administration, whether on
the whole it is not better that the Depart-
ment in this instance as in others should
have these powers.
Mi*. JOHNSTON: I appreciate what a
splendid debating point the hon. and gal-
lant Gentleman has got, but, as a matter
of fact, these powers are already pos-
sessed by the English Ministry in regard
to Crown land. There is nothing new
in them. We are only seeking to get for
the Department in Scotland powers which
are already possessed in England. No
one knows better than the hon. and
gallant Gentleman that it is the constant
endeavour of the Department in Edin-
burgh not only to comply with the wishes
of the local authorities but to carry out
the law. This proposal arises out of a
case in Haddingtonshire, where there
were different by-laws operating on oppo-
Major ELLIOT: I can only speak again
by the leave of the House, but I would
point- out, first, that the statement of the
Under-Secretary that the powers might
need to be exercised only once in a
decade shows that no grave administra-
tive inconvenience would be caused if
the powers were not inserted; and,
secondly, that it does cause inconvenience
if farming operations have to comply with
two different sets of by-laws. If these
powers are so necessary and so much
desired they might be brought in in a
way which would allow of fuller discus-
sion than on the Report .stage, when we
are anxious to get through the business
of the House. There is another Scottish
Bill in Committee upstairs, and the
Under-Secretary might put down a new
Clause to cover the point if he decides
that it ought to be incorporated in the
law of Scotland. It is not necessarily
germane to this Bill at all.


305
Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill.
242
Mr. JOHNSTON: In view of the
opinion expressed by hon. Gentlemen
opposite, I will withdraw the Amend-
ment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Mr. J0IHNST0N: I beg to move, in
page 23, line 18, at the end, to insert
the' words :
" (i) Sub-section (3) of Section eighteen
of the Land Settlement (Scotland) Act 1919,
shall have effect as if for the purpose therein
specified there were substituted the follow-
ing purposes :
(a) the provision of allotments or allot-
ment gardens and the purchase or leasing
and equipment of land therefor;
(b) the making of grants or loans to
local authorities or to societies or associa-
tions having as their object or one of their
objects the provision of allotments or allot-
ment gardens in aid of expenditure by
such authorities, societies, or associations
in connection with the provision of allot-
ments or allotment gardens."
It is the second part of the original
Amendment which I am now moving, and
it is moved in fulfilment of the pledge
given to the hon. Member for Kincardine
(Mr. Scott) and, indeed, to hon. Mem-
bers on all sides of the House. It deals
with allotments and makes it quite clear
that the £4,000 which we have voted for
allotments may be used to secure the
provision of allotments.
Mr. SCOTT: In Committee I moved a
Clause to deal with this matter but with-
drew it on the undertaking given to me
by the Under-Secretary. I have con-
sidered this new Amendment and I am
of opinion that it fully implements the
pledge which the Government gave. It
removes any dubiety as to the purpose
for which the fund referred to may be
applied. I hope the passing of this
Amendment will give a fillip to the allot-
ment movement in Scotland. It is only
permissive and not mandatory, but I
think we may leave it with safety in the
hands of the Department of Agriculture,
in the belief that they will put all their
strength behind it in order to develop
allotments. Along with that move from
the Department of Agriculture one hopes
that the local authorities will now exer-
cise the powers they have under the Act
of 1926, in order that all may go forward
together.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. J 0 HNST0N : I beg to move, in
page 23, line 19, to leave out the word?,
" Sub-section (8) of Sections," and to
insert instead thereof the words 'Sub-
sections (8) and (9) of Section."
The necessity for this Amendment arises
out of the insertion of a new Clause,.
Clause 7, which alters the numbers of the
succeeding Clauses.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in
page 23, line 20, to leave out the word
'' seven."
Major ELLIOT: Why is this. Amend-
ment b eing mo ved %
Mr. JOHNSTON : The remark I made -a
moment ago covers this Amendment also.
A new Clause was inserted in the Bill,,
and therefore the numbers of the succeed-
ing Clauses require alteration.
Major ELLIOT: But this is a matter of
some importance. The Bill says that Sec-
tion 7 shall not apply. Section 7 is the
rather famous Clause giving power to
provide a smallholding for an applicant
who is an agricultural worker, even
although he be not unemployed. We
observed with some interest that that had
been left out of the Bll, and I understood
that the rather complicated procedure of
re-committal and amendment which is to
follow was to deal with that point.
Dr. ADDISON: I aoi sorry to inter-
vene, but this relates to paragraph (h)
on page 23 of the Bill, where it states :
" Sub-section (8) of Sections three, and
Sections seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, and
fifteen, and paragraph (c) of Part I of the
First Schedule shall not apply."
This refers to Part I of the. First Sche-
dule. It is not Clause 7 of the Bill.
Mr. JOHNSTON: It is a purely draft-
ing Amendment.
Major ELLIOT: It is extraordinarily
complicated. Do I understand that these
are sections 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 15 of the
Schedule and not of the Bill?
Mr. JOHNSTON: Of the Schedule.
Major ELLIOT: I do not think it is
by any means self-evident on the face of
it.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made : In page 23,
line 20, leave out the words and


308 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
fifteen," and insert instead thereof the
words twelve, thirteen, and seventeen."
[Mr. Johnston.~\
Second Schedule.(Minor Amendments
of Small Holdings and Allotment
Acts.)
Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, in
page 26, line 13, at the end, to insert
the words :
" Section 61 After the word
' council,' where that word first occurs,
there shall be inserted the words 1 and the
expression council of a county." "
This Amendment is moved because hon.
Members called my attention to the fact
that in some places we have the words
" county council and in other places
" council of a county," and is to make
theim harmonise.
Amendment agreed to.
Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move,
" That the Bill be re-committed to a Coin-
* mittee of the whole House in respect of the
Amendments to Clause 2, page 4, line 9,
Clause 6, page 11, line 7, line 19', line 39,
line 44, Clause 15, page 16, line 18, and the
new Clause, standing on the Notice Paper
in the name of Dr. Addison, and in respect
of the Amendment to Clause 24, page 22,
line 41, standing on the Notice Paper in the
name of Mr. Secretary Adamson."
Major ELLIOT: I would like to take
the opportunity of asking the Minister
whether he is quite sure that the assur-
ance he just gave about an Amendment
referring to Section 7 of the Schedule
and not of the Bill is correct.
Dr. ADDISON: Certainly.
Major ELLIOT: The reference was to
Sections 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 of Part I
of the First Schedule, but when I turned
to the First Schedule I find there are
no such sections. At the time I took the
assurance of the Minister on the point.
Dr. ADDISON: And I certainly gave
it in good faith.
Major ELLIOT: And we realised that
it was given in good faith. I can only
bring this matter in by a reference to
the fact that the lecommittal deals in
part with the Amendment standing in
the name of the Secretary of State for
Scotland. To put it briefly and non-
technically, it is a question of the appli-
cation to Scotland of the Clause allow-
ing the Minister to make smallholdings
for persons who are not unemployed.
I read it that Section 7 of the Bill was
not to apply, but the Minister assured
me that I was mistaken in thinking it
was Section 7 of the Bill.
Dr. ADDISON: I find that the refer-
ence is to the Schedule in the Act and
not to the Schedule of this Bill. I con-
fess that, as I read the paragraph, I
thought it was the First Schedule of this
Bill, but on re-reading it I find that it
relates to the Land Settlement Act and
to the First Schedule of that Act.
Major ELLIOT: An opportunity will
arise later for discussing this matter and
I do not wish to pursue it further now,
but I would point out that the House
was misled, of course unwittingly, by the
Minister, and therefore we may want to
consider the matter further when we
come to the appropriate point. The
House was misled by the Minister's
statement, which was the result, perhaps,
of intervening rashly in a discussion
upon a Scottish application Clause,
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly considered in Com-
mittee.
[Sir Robert Young in the Chair.]
Clause 2,.(Power of Minister to acquire
and hold land for use as demonstra-
tion farms.)
Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, in
page 4, line 9, after the word pur-
chase," to insert the word equip."
The object of this Amendment is to
allow the provision made in regard to
land for demonstration farms to include
their equipment.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
Clause 6.(Power of Minister to pro-
vide smallholdings with financial
assistance for unemployed, persons.)
The following Amendment stood upon
the Paper:
In page 11, line 7, after the word
" for to insert the words:
" enabling him to undertake the business
of a smallholder/ including sums for."
[Dr. Addison.]
Dr. ADDISON: A mistake has been
made in putting down this Amendment,
and I do not move.
No. 55
E


310
Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill.
242
[Dr. Addison.]
I beg to move, in page 11, line 19, at
the end, to insert the words:
" and in the event >of any -difficulty in
obtaining any stock required for the pur-
pose aforesaid the Minister may arrange for
the production thereof by any local autho-
rity, society, or person, and for the pro-
vision of the equipment necessary for that
purpose upon such terms as may be agreed
between him and the local authority, society,
or person."
This Amendment is moved'to meet any
difficulty that may arise in obtaining any
stock, and makes provision of the neces-
sary equipment upon such terms as may
be agreed between the Minister and the
local authorities. These words make the
point quite clear.
Amendment agreed to.
Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, in
page 11, line 39, after the word
" require," to insert the words :
" for themselves or for their dependants."
This Amendment is moved in order to
implement an undertaking which has
already been given.
Amendment agreed to.
Dr. ADDISON : I !beg to move, in page
11, line 44, to leave out the words for
them and insert instead thereof the
words :
(a) for any person desirous of obtaining
a smallholding under this section who is,
in the opinion of the Minister, likely to
become suitable as a tenant of such a
holding; and
(b) for not more than one dependant
of any such person or of any person for
whom a smallholding has been provided
under this section.
In this section the expression depen-
dant means, in relation to any person, the
husband, wife, son, or daughter (including
a step-son or step-daughter and an adopted
on or daughter) of that person.
These words are proposed in order to
carry out what has already been
arranged.
Question, That the words proposed to-
be left out stand part of the Clause,"
put, and negatived.
Question proposed, That those words
be there inserted."
Mr. R. W. SMITH : I beg to move, as
an Amendment to the proposed Amend-
ment, in line 8, after the word
" daughter," to insert the words or
grandchild."
I think it is necessary to insert these
words in order to make the Amendment
clear.
Dr. ADDISON : I think we must draw
the line somewhere. In my Amendment
we have taken the usual classification,
and the Amendment to the proposed
Ajnendment seems to me to be rather
stretching a fine point.
Mr. SMITH: I beg to ask leave to
withdraw my Amendment to the pro-
posed Amendment.
Amendment to proposed Amendment,
by leave, withdrawn.
Question, That those words be there
inserted," put, and agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand
part -of the Bill.
Clause 15.(Power of Minister to
defray losses incurred by local
authorities in providing allotment
gardens for unemployed persons.)
Dr. ADDISON : I ibeg to move, in page
16, line 18, to- leave out from the begin-
ning to the word without in line 22,
and to insert instead thereof the words:
" (5) The Minister may, after the -date
of the commencement of this Act, approve
proposals and estimates submitted to him
for the purposes of this section before that
date, but where the land to which any pro-
posals relate has been acquired before the
first day of January, nineteen hundred and
thirty-one, or is after the commencement of
this Act acquired."
This is an Amendment to make clear
the power of the Minister to defray the
losses incurred by local authorities in pro-
viding allotment gardens for unemployed
persons. If 'a number of authorities wish
to enter into contracts to purchase land
for allotments, they can do so under this
proposal.
Mr. GUINNESS: I do not object to
allotment gardens for unemployed per-
sons, but I wish to protest against the
financial precedent which 'appears to be
created by this procedure. As I under-
stand this Amendment, it gives retro-
spective sanction to expenditure which
has been incurred by local authorities on
the authority of the Minister. I should1
like to have that point cleared up. I
admit that this proposal is within the
four corners of the scheme set out in the
Bill, and it oome-s under the organisation
which "the Minister has created. After


312 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
what the Minister has said I have a very
string conviction that this expenditure
has only been incurred by the local
authorities on the understanding that
they would be repaid under the provisions
of this Bill. I do not wish to discuss the
point any further, but-I desire to register
a strong protest against the Amendment.
Sir DOUGLAS NEWTON: We have
no information whatever 'as to the local
authorities who have .spent this money, as
to the amount of money they have spent,
or what commitments they have incurred.
Dr. ADD I SON : We undertake by this
Bill to provide seeds and fertilisers for
allotment holders. I quite recognise the
difficulties which have been pointed out.
Lieut. Colonel Sir FREDERICK
HALL: According to the arrangement
now suggested, any Government in power
can delegate authority to local authori-
ties to do what they like. Practically the
local 'authorities are being told that,
although they may meet with a certain
amount of opposition, the Government-
will be alole to put that right. I have
always been bitterly opposed to retro-
spective legislation, which is one of the
worst things that can happen. I am
entirely opposed to it, and I am par-
ticularly opposed to it when a Member of
the Government takes power unto him-
self to say that this or that thing may
be done. In those circumstances what
would be the position of the loc'al authori-
ties 1 Somebody would have to discharge
their accounts, and are we to say that if
the local authorities do not pay the
Government will pay ? I hope that wh'at
is now proposed will not be taken as a
precedent, as I do not want anyone to
be able in the future to say: "Such a
thing was done on the 10th of February,
1931." It is on that account that I raise
my protest, and I bitterly resent the
action which has been taken by the
Government.
Mr. Rl, W. SMITH : I want to protest
against this Clause. I do not want to
take up the time of the Committee, but
the Minister says that the reason for this
Clause is largely because the sowing
season is approaching. If the Govern-
ment had introduced this Measure at a
reasonable time, when we asked them
for a Measure relating to agriculture,
they would have been able to obtain a
Measure in sufficient time to avoid the
necessity for this Clause.
Question, That the words proposed
to be left out stand part of the Clause,"
put, and negatived.
Question put, That these words be
there inserted."
The House divided: Ayes, 260: Noes,
144.
Division No. 142.]
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hlllsbro')
Angell, Sir Norman
Arnott, John
Aske, Sir Robert
Attlee, Clement Richard
Ayles, Walter
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Barnes, Alfred John
Batey, Joseph
Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham)
Bellamy, Albert
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)
Bennett. William (Battersea. South)
Benson, G.
Blindell, James
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Broad, Francis Alfred
Brockway, A. Fenner
Bromfield, William
Bromley, J.
Brooke, W.
Brothers, M.
Brown, Ernest (Leith)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)
Buchanan, G.
Burgess, F. G.
AYES.
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Caine, Derwent Hall-
Cameron, A. G.
Cape, Thomas
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Charlcton, H. C.
Clarke, J. S.
Cluse, W. S.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Compton, Joseph
Cove, William G.
Cripps, Sir Stafford
Daggar, George
Dallas, George
Davles, E. C. (Montgomery)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Day, Harry
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Dukes, C.
Ede, James Chuter
Edmunds, J. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Egan, W. H.
Elmley, Viscount
Foot, Isaac
Forgan, Dr. Robert
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham. Upton)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Gibblns, Joseph
Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley)
Gill, T. H.
[8.1 p.m.
Glassey, A. E.
Gossllng, A. G.
Gould, F.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Granville, E.
Gray, Milner
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro* W.)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Groves, Thomas E.
Grundy, Thomas W.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normantcn)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Hardie, George D.
Harris, Percy A.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Haycock, A. W.
Hayday, Arthur
Hayes, John Henry
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley)
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)
Henderson, W. W. (Mlddx., Enfield)
Herrlotts, J.
Hirst, G. H. (YorkW. R. Wentworth)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
No. 55


314 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill.
242
Hoffman, P. C.
Hollins, A.
Hopkin, Daniel
Hore-Belisha, Leslie
Horrabin, J. F.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfleld)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Isaacs, George
Jenkins, Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Johnston, Thomas
Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Sflvertown)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Jowctt, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)
Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Kinley, J.
Kirkwood, D.
Knight, Holford
Lang, Gordon
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Lathan, G.
Law, Albert (Bolton)
Law, A. (Rossendale)
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)
Lawther W. (Barnard Castle)
Leach, W.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Lees, J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Lloyd, C. Ellis
Logan, David Gilbert
Longbottom, A. W.
Longden, F.
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
McEntee, V. L.
McKinlay, A.
MacLaren, Andrew
Manlcan, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
McShane, John James
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Mansfield, W.
Marcus, M.
Markham, S. F.
Marley, J.
Marshall, Fred
Mathers, George
Matters, L. W.
Maxton, James
Melville, Sir James
Middleton, G.
Milner, Major J.
Montague, Frederick
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Morley, Ralph
Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Mort, D. L.
Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwlck)
Muff, G.
Muggeridge, H. T.
Murnin, Hugh
Noel Baker, P. J.
Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)
Oldfield, J. R.
Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)
Paiin, John Henry
Paling, Wilfrid
Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Perry, S. F.
Peters. Dr. Sidney John
Pethlck-Lawrence, F. W.
Phillips, Dr. Marion
Picton-Turbervill, Edith
Pole, Major D. G.
Potts, John S.
Price, M. P.
Pybus, Percy John
Qulbeli, D. J. K.
Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Rathbone, Eleanor
Raynes, W. R.
Richards, R.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Ritson, J.
Romerll, H. G.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Rowson, Guy
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Sanders, W. S.
Sawyer, G. F.
Scott, James
Scrymgeour, E.
Scurr, John
Sexton, Sir James
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Sherwood, G. H.
Shield, George William
Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Shlllaker, J. F.
Shlnwell, E.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Simmons, C. J.
Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)
Sftch, Charles H.
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Sorensen, R.
Stamford, Thomas W.
Stephen, Campbell
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Strauss, G. R.
Sullivan, J.
Sutton, J. E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Tinker, John Joseph
Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J.
Townend, A. E.
Vaughan, David
Viant, S. P.
Walkden, A. G.
Walker, J.
Wallace, H. W.
Watkins, F. C.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh, James (Paisley)
Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
West, F. R.
Westwood, Joseph
White, H. G.
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Blrm., Ladywood)
Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllffe)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Wlnterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Mr. Ben Smith and Mr. Thurtle.
Acland-Troyte, Lleut.-Colonel
Alnsworth, Lleut.-Col. Charles
Albery, Irving James
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Atkinson, C.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.
Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman
Bird, Ernest Roy
Boothby, R. J. G.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart
Boyce, Leslie
Bracken, B.
Braithwalte, Major A. N.
Briscoe, Richard George
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Campbell, E. T.
Carver, Major W. H.
Castle Stewart, Earl of
Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
NOES.
Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.)
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.SIr J.A.(Birm.,W.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)
Chapman, Sir S.
Christie, J. A.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Clydesdale, Marquess of
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George
Cohen, Major J. Brunei
Colviile, Major D. J.
Courtauld, Major J. S.
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.
Cranborne, Viscount
Crlchton-Stuart, Lord C.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Llndsey,Galnsbro)
Dalkeith, Earl of
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)
Dawson, Sir Philip
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
Duckworth, G. A. V.
Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
England, Colonel A.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset,Weston-s.-M.)
Everard, W. Lindsay
Fade, Sir Bertram G.
Ferguson, Sir John
Fermoy, Lord
Flclden, E. B.
Flson, F. G. Clavering
Ford, Sir P. J.
Forestler-Walker, Sir L.
Fremantle, Lleut.-Colonel Francis E.
Galbralth, J. F. W.
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Gower, Sir Robert
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Hall, Lleut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)
Hanbury, C.
Harmon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Haslam, Henry C.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney,N.>


315 Agricultural Land
HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
Iveagh, Countess of
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Kindersley, Major G. M.
Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)
Lelghton, Major B. E. P.
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
Llewellln, Major J. J.
McConnell, Sir Joseph
Macquisten, F. A.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.
Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)
Muirhead, A. J.
Nelson, Sir Frank
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
O'Connor, T. J.
O'Neill, Sir H.
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Peake, Capt. Osbert
Penny, Sir George
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Peto, Sir, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Ramsbotham, H.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Reid, David D. (County Down)
Remer, John R.
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Salmon, Major I.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Savery, S. S.
Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Simms, Major-General J.
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)
Skelton, A. N.
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.)
Smithers, Waldron
Somerset, Thomas
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
Clause 24.(Application to Scotland.)
Dr. ADDISON: I want to apologise
to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the
Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot)
for something which I said to him in
error in regard to the last Amendment.
I had not read it myself, but the whole
point is that this Clause which follows is
the adaptation Clause, and the reference
to Clause 7 is necessary because of the
new Clause 7.
Major ELLIOT: I am much obliged to
the Minister, and I am sure the whole
Committee is grateful for his explana-
tion. It will be for the convenience of
those who are following the Debate in
'Scotland and elsewhere, to have it.
Mr. JOHNSTON : I beg to move, in
page 22, line 41, to leave out from the
word six," to the end of the paragraph,
and to insert instead thereof the words :
" and section seven of this Act &haQ not
apply, but the department shall have power
to provide, in accordance with the pro-
visions of the Small Holdings Colonies Acts,
1916 and 1918, or of the Small Landholders
(Scotland) Acts, 1886 to 1919, either on land
belonging to the department or on land
belonging to another person, a holding for
an unemployed person within the meaning
of the said sub-section (1) or for an agri-
cultural worker, notwithstanding that such I
unemployed person or agricultural worker
would he unable to cultivate the holding
unless the facilities set forth in sub-section
(2) of the said section six were extended to
him.
(g) Sub-sections (2), (3), and (4) of
section six of this Act shall have effect as
if for any reference to the provision under
the powers conferred by that section of a
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Sueter Rear-Admiral M. F.
Thomson, Sir F.
Tltchfield, Major the Marquess of
Todd, Capt. A. J.
Train, J.
Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Ward, Lleut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.
Warrender, Sir Victor
Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Wayland, Sir William A.
Wells, Sydney R.
Wlndsor-Cllve, Lfeut.-Colonel George
Withers, Sir John James
Womersley, W. J.
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
TELLERS FOR THE NOES -
Captain Margesson and Sir George
Bowyer.
smallholding for an unemployed person,
there were substituted a reference to the
provision under the power conferred by
the immediately preceding paragraph of a
holding for an unemployed person or an
agricultural worker, and any reference to
the said section six shall include a refer-
ence to the immediately preceding para-
graph."
This is a rather terrifying labyrinth
of words, but it apparently is the normal
way of stating adequately the position.
By Sub-section (1) of Clause 6, power is
taken to provide smallholdings and to
give financial assistance to unemployed
persons, and that Subjection was
adapted for Scotland by Clause 24, para-
graph (/). In the course of the discus-
sion in the Committee upstairs, an
Amendment was carried to adid the words
" agricultural worker" to the Clause
which provides for smallholdings and for
financial assistance. That being so, a
new Clause'Clause 7was imported into
the Bill which therefore altered the nota-
tion of all the Clauses after Clause 6.
It is now necessary to ensure that the
financial assistance which it was intended
should be given to unemployed persons,
should be given also to agricultural
workers. The Amendment which I am
now moving is designed to do no more
than to ensure that the consequences of
the Amendment 'carried in the Com-
mittee upstairs shall be logically,
accurately, and definitely translated into
the other Clauses of the Bill.
Major ELLIOT: A desire to make a
few general references to the. subject on
which the Under-Secretary has just
spoken, and this seems to me to be the
most suitable occasion from the point of
view of the House to discuss the prin-


363 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF
[Major Elliot.]
ciple involved. As I understand it
and the Government Bench will pardon
me if I desire to be quite sure that I
do understand it, in vieiw of the fact
that we have already had a slight diffi-
culty this eveningthe Clause moved
from the Liberal benches in Committee
was moved because it was desired to
add, to the provision made for the small-
holdings for unemployed people, all
agricultural workers, whether unem-
ployed or not. That broadening of the
basis of the Bill was welcomed by the
Committee as a whole, and the Minis-
ter, who at the time thought that he
would require to place safeguards upon
this extension, has found on reflection
that those safeguards will not be neces-
sary. The Financial Resolution which is
incorporated in the Bill shows a slight
difference as between the Scottish and
the English portions. Paragraph (e),
which is the Scottish portion, speaks of:
" Such sums as may he required by the
Department -of Agriculture for Scotland for
the purchase of land or the erection of build-
ings for the provision of holdings for unem-
ployed persons."
whereas the corresponding paragraph,
(d), which relates to. England, speaks oif:
" Such sums as may be required by the
Minister for the purchase of land or the
erection of buildings for the provision of
smallholdings."
It will, therefore, be clear that the
Scottish portion is fettered by the words
" holdings fo,r unemployed persons,"
which are absent from the English por-
tion, and, therefore, whatever alteration
we might make in the Bill could not help
the position in Scotland, because that is
governed by the Financial Resolution,
which is incorporated in the present
Clause 21 of the Bill. That being so,
the Secretary of, State for Scotland has
had to adopt the somewhat complicated
measure of feeding the money required
into the Agriculture (iScotland) Fund,
and drawing from the Agriculture (Scot-
land) Fund the sums which he will
require to carry out the settlement of
those persons, not unemployed, who are
being brought in by the present provision.
If this be so, we can proceed to the
Amendments which I and some others
of my hon. Friends have upon the Paper.
I should like to say, in the first place,
bhat we on this side of the House fully
appreciate the desirability of bringing in
COMMON'S (iUtilisation) Bill. 354
the agricultural worker, whether
employed or unemployed. If this Bill is
to deal with the question of land settle-
ment, it would obviously be foolish to
exclude from land settlement those who,
of all people, would be most likely to
take advantage of it, and, indeed, if that
were done, there would be great resent-
ment throughout the country as a whole.
At the present time there are 2,600,000
people registered as unemployed. There
are in addition some 1,200,000 agricul-
tural workers, which makes 3,800,000.
Then there are all those other persons
who may be unemployed, although they
do not appear on any register. They may
easily be put down at another 1,000,000,
which brings the total to 4,800,000; and
bo attempt to cut a loaf which cannot be
more than 100,000 holdings to cover all
this vast mass of persons will, it seems
to me, be a matter of great adminis-
brative difficulty in the future. Amend-
ments will have to be made later to deal
with them, but at the moment the point
is that it is necessary to omit these words
in order to bring the Scottish agricultural
worker into the same position in which
the English agricultural worker has been
placed. That alteration was made in
Committee with good will on all sides,
and I am certain that the House also will
agree with the same good will in all
quarters to the alteration which is at
present being made as regards Scottish
agriculture.
Mr. SCOTT: I agree with the hon.
and gallant Member who has just spoken
that the method adopted by the
Government is necessarily a complicated
method, but no doubt they are advised
that it is the only method by which the
money destined for this purpose can be
obtained for Scotland. Speaking for the
party which at the moment I happen
to be leading, I may say that we entirely
approve of the proposals in this Clause.
My purpose in intervening is to raise
a general point, following the example
of the hon. and gallant Member who has
just spoken. I should like to get from
the Government an assurance that what
they are going to do is to settle these
unemployed men and agricultural workers
under the tenure of the Small Holdings
Acts, and not merely as tenants of the
Department of Agriculture. That is a
very vital point, because we have in
Scotland already some 50,000 small-
holders, and we on these benches would


320 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
like to be assured that the intention of
the Government is to establish these
new holders under the existing Acts,
with all the privileges and benefits which
those Acts conferthat is to say, they
would have security of tenure, fair rents,
and full compensation for improvements.
One thing we do not want, and that is
that these new holders should be mere
tenants under the State with no rights
whatever, with their tenure purely at the
dictation of the officials of the Depart-
ment of Agriculture; and, particularly,
that these holdings should not be let
at equipped rents, a method recently
adopted by the Department of Agricul-
ture. As the hon. Gentleman knows,
that matter is to be raised very shortly
in Committee on another Bill, and it will
be a great mistake if the Department
has any intention of perpetuating a
system which is thoroughly unsound, and
which we hope very shortly to get
reversed. I should like to have an
assurance from the Government that
what they intend to do is to establish
these new holders under the small
Holdings Acts, and I should say, speak-
ing again for the party which I happen
at the moment to be leading, that it
would be a condition of support
for this Clause that we should
have an assurance of that sort.
Colonel ASHLEY: When we are deal-
ing with an extremely complicated
Amendment such as this, I think we
should have a Law Officer of the Grown
here. I am sure that no one but a
trained lawyer can understand in the
least what paragraph (g) means, I
sincerely hope that some explanation
will be given to Members like myself who
are not learned in the law, so that we
may understand that paragraph, which I
do not expect even you, Sir, with all your
experience can understand in the least.
It says that these Sections shall not mean
what they are said to mean, but
shall mean what Sub-section (1) says.
What in the name of common sense does
it mean ? I do not criticise this, because
I have not the remotest idea what it is.
If the Secretary of State can explain it,
I will do my best to understand it, but at
present I have not the remotest idea
what it all means.
Mr. JOHNSTON: I will give the right
hon. and gallant Gentleman the 'satisfac-
tion of saying that wffien I first saw this
paragraph, I felt exactly as he feels, but
we had a most careful examination and
consultation with the Law Officers, and
we are satisfied that it is purely con-
sequential and drafting, and is designed
to give effect to a decision that was
unanimously come to in Committee. It
was decided to import a fresh class of
persons who should receive the benefit of
smallholdings. The Bill as it was intro-
duced simply covered unemployed
persons, but upstairs, by common agree-
ment, there was added a class of agricul-
tural workers and a new Clause had to
be inserted. In England, smallholdings
are dealt with by the Minister through
the county councils. We have not got
that system in Scotland at all. We have
one omnium gatherum called the Agri-
culture (Scotland) Fund, (administered
by the Department of Agriculture, into
which the money voted by Parliament for
the provisions of smallholdings to unem-
ployed persons and to agricultural
workers under the Bill must be paid. It
is purely to give legal effect to the de-
cision of the Committee that this para-
graph has been inserted. I .hope I
have made that clear.
The hon. Member for Kincardineshire
(Mr. Scott) asked as to the conditions
on which unemployed persons and farm
workers could be settled. Until a man
has proved himself suitable, it would be
highly undesirable to give a statutory
direction to the effect that every man
should receive landholders' tenure, but,
apart from that, it is the intention of the
Government to see to it that persons who
are found suitable are put in. It is the
settled policy of all parties in the State
that for future holdings now being
created by the Department of Agricul-
ture', landholders' tenure should be
accorded, but it is felt that it would be
undesirable to give a statutory direction
of compulsion in every case until a man
has shown that he intends to remain a
landholder.
Question, That the words proposed
to be left out stand part of the Clause,"
put, and agreed to.
Question proposed, That those words
be there inserted."
Mr. R. W. SMITH : I beg to move, as
an Amendment to the proposed Amend-
ment, in line 4, to leave out the word
" either."


321 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF
[Mr. Smith.]
This is the first of two Amendments
which hang together, and deal with the
same point. We have two forms of small
landholders in Scotland, those set up
by the Department of Agriculture on
land belonging to the Department, and
those set up on private estates. I rather
dread to mention the word, but there
is a report known as the Nairne report,
and whenever we mention it in the House
or anywhere near it, it seems rather to
frighten English Members. The first
recommendation of that committee was
that the creation by the State of small-
holdings on privately-owned estates
should be discontinued in the Lowlands.
My Amendment is to carry out that
recommendation. It is simply that these
unemployed persons and agricultural
workers should be settled on land that
belongs to the Department and not on
private estates so as to discontinue a
system which has worked so unsatisfac-
torily in the past.
Major COLVILLE: I support the
Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
It is not our intention to limit the
operation of the Act, but to see that it
is worked smoothly. It was very clearly
brought out in the Nairne report that
the system of dual ownership was work-
ing out unsatisfactorily. The tenants did
not like it because they thought they
had to pay two rents, one for buildings
and one for land. The report recom-
mended clearly that further holdings
should be on land owned by the Depart-
ment of Agriculture for Scotland. The
Department is already the largest land-
owner in Scotland and owns over
300,000 acres, so that they have a con-
siderable area of land to work upon. I
support the Amendment to the proposed
Amendment in the belief that it will
make for smooth running, and that the
system of dual ownership should not be
enlarged when increasing the number of
small landholders.
Mr. JOHNSTON: It would certainly
be highly desirable, particularly con-
sidering some of the classes of applicants,
that, as far as possible, the holder
should be placed upon publicly-owned
land. It is the settled policy of the
Government to -see that as much land as
possible is acquired for public purposes,
but there might be cases, particularly in
the Highland are'as, where it would un-
COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
duly restrict the opportunities afforded
by this Bill to provide settlements for
farm workers and unemployed persons, if
the hon. Gentleman's Amendment were
accepted. If he will rest -satisfied with
the statement that it is the obvious in-
tention of the Government to secure as
much land as possible for the State, 'and
to settle as many of these holders as pos-
sible on publicly-owned land, I think he
will find that it will meet his case.
Major ELLIOT: Naturally, we cannot
accept what has fallen from the Minister
that it is desirable that the State should
own as much land as possible, and that
all cultivators in Scotland should not be
freeholders, but should be tenants of the
State. That would not, I think, really
commend itself to the party below the
Gangway either, even amongst the shreds
and patches of the principles which they
preserve upon this subject. [An Hon.
Member : Shame "] This is not in any
way a reflection upon their moral
character. The question of private
ownership is enormously complicate!! as
soon as it comes to a question of land.
The ownership of a piece of land owned
by a landlord, interfered with by the
State, further interfered with by the
tenant and super-interfered with by a
marketing board, but not in any way
interfered with through imports coming
from abroadthese principles can be re-
conciled in the Liberal attitude towards
a piece of land. We sympathise with
them in their difficulty. The proposals of
the Nairne Committee were that the
State should buy a piece of land and that
the tenants should know to whom they
had to look. We are of opinion in regard
to this question that to have the freehold
held by the State and the tenancy by the
tenant is much to be preferred. The
Under-Secretary of State -says that it .s
desired that the dual ownership system
should not be preserved. Upon that
matter we are agreed, and perhaps on
that assurance my hon. Friend might be
able to withdraw his Amendment. I
think that in so far as we are agreed to
'any extent on any subject relating to
land, it"is sufficiently a miracle that it
should be greeted with acclamation.
Mr. SCOTT: I cannot allow the prin-
ciples of the Liberal party to be stated
by the hon. and gall'ant Member for
Kelvingrove (Major Elliot). He has


324 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
grossly mis-stated them in referring to
them as shreds and patches. I should
like to dissociate myself from the idea
that it is part of Liberal principles or
policy to acquire 'as much land as pos-
sible for the State, leading ultimately to
the total nationalisation of the land of
this country. That is no part of Liberal
policy as far 'as I understand it. What
Liberals want to isecure-
The CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member
has made his disclaimer. He is out of
order in attempting to explain the policy
of his party.
Mr. SCOTT: I do not wish to trans-
gress further, but I want to make the
position clear concerning the remarks of
the hon. Member for Central Aberdeen
(Mr. R. W. iSmith), who has quoted from
the report of the Nairne Committee.
Mr. STEPHEN: Your friends on those
benches do not agree with you.
Mr. SCOTT: I am speaking, as the
House may see, for a united party which
cannot be cajoled or induced in any way
to support principles with which it dis-
agrees. The hon. Member for Central
Aberdeen in support of his Amendment
quoted from the Report of the Nairne
Committee, and it is noticeable that
every agricultural Member from above
the Gangway always refers to the Report
of the Nairne Committee in the same
breath and tonerather a hushed tone
as he would refer to the family Bible.
The committee, in addition to making
the recommendation which the hon.
Member pointed out, also gave a high
testimonial to the beneficial effect under
the Smallholders Acts throughout Scot-
land. The hon. Member did not quote
that portion of the Report. When the
committee proceed to suggest that there
should be no extension of the smallhold-
ing tenancy in the southern counties of
Scotlandthey even go further, and
suggest that there should be no extension
in the less mountainous parts of Northern
Scotlandthen we part company with
them at once. The Amendment to the
Amendment should be resisted, and I
would remind the hon. Gentleman repre-
senting the Government that he has
powers to schedule land belong to other
persons, and that he ought to exercise
the powers which were given to the
Government in the 1911 Act, which was
passed by a Liberal Government. Let
him use those powers and take all the
land he requires for the purpose of
implementing the obligations under this
Bill, and in the knowledge that he can
take both land and buildingsI am not
going to say without paying for them
for the use of the smallholders who are
to be placed on the land. If the land-
lord gets a fair rent for the use of the
buildings and the land, it is all that he
is entitled to receive. I suggest that the
Government should resist the Amend-
ment to the Amendment and proceed
under the powers which they possess in
the 1911 Act.
The CHAIRMAN: Does the hon.
Member wish to withdraw his Amend-
ment 1
Mr. R. W. SMITH : I beg to ask leave
to withdraw the Amendment to the pro-
posed Amendment.
Amendment to the proposed Amend-
ment, by leave, withdrawn.
Major ELLIOT: I beg to move, as an
Amendment to the proposed Amendment,
in line 5, to leave out from the word
" for to the word notwithstanding,"
in line 7, and to insert instead thereof the
words any person."
This Amendment to the proposed
Amendment is moved in order to bring
within the scope of the Bill, originally a
Bill for the settlement of unemployed
persons upon the land of Great Britain,
persons who are not unemployed. It is
clear that the Committee were faced with*
a fundamentally absurd proposal. That
is to say, the Bill seriously held out the
prospect of being able to deal with a sub-
stantial portion of the unemployed in
this country by means of settling people
upon the land, but the Committee stage
had not proceeded very far before it was
obvious that that contention could not
be sustained and that it was, in fact, a
Bill for the promotion of smallholdings.
Then the question arose, this is an agri-
cultural Bill, a land settlement Bill.
Who, then, were the most .suitable per-
sons to be placed upon the land ? The
answer became self-evident, namely,
those who had worked upon the land.
The new Clause had only to be moved to
meet with acceptance in all parts of the
Committee, for it was ridiculous to say
that you would bring unemployed men
from the cities and settle them upon the


325 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF
[Major Elliot.]
land over the heads of men who had been
spending their lives in working upon the
land.
The Minister in charge of the Bill
warned the Committee that it was un-
likely that he would receive sufficient
Treasury support to enable him to make
any substantial inroads upon the numbers
of those working upon the land and who
might desire smallholdings. He sug-
gested that it might be necessary to
safeguard the position by Amendments
on the Report stage, but it was clear
when the Order Paper was scrutinised
that he had not found it necessary to take
those further precautions. It was un-
necessary. This is merely an enabling
Bill for the Minister. In Clause 16,
which is the important and opera-
tive Clause it is provided that
" The Minister may make grants or ad-
vances to any county council etc."
in regard ito allotments, and the moneys
may provide a certain number of small-
holdings. Clause 6 says, that the Minister
-shall have power to provide smallholdings
for .certain persons. All these things are
subject to the' overriding veto of the
Treasury. The fact is that in, Scotland
we could have done nearly everything
that there is in this Bill at any time for
years past, save the .small question of
making an advance during ia certain
period of one pound a week to certain
persons. iWe could have d-one ail this by
an increased vote from the Treasury.
Mr. JOHNSTON: What about allot-
ments'?
Major ELLIOT: There are certain
arrangements in regard to allotments for
which we should have required special
legislative powers.
Mr. SCOTT: Why did not the last
Government do it ?
Major ELLIOT: The last Government
did not do it for the reason that the hon.
Member's Government did not do- it, and
for the reason that the present Govern-
ment will not do it, because the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer says No." It
is very interesting to note that when the
hon. Member's own leader was in diffi-
culties in carrying out the sort of process
which he was urged to adopt-
COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
The CHAIRMAN : I am afraid that we
are getting wide of the Amendment.
Major ELLIOT: My point is that pre-
vious Governments found the same diffi-
culty in providing finance, and that the;
Coalition Government, presided over by
the right hon. Member for Carnarvon
Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George), applied the
axe to smallholdings, cut down smallhold-
ings and the finance of smallholdings,
with the result that the creation of small-
holdings and land settlement did not take
place. All the things which indicate diffi-
culties before the Minister in carrying out
this work will be chiefly the difficulty of
finance. The Minister has taken a great
category of persons, 2,600,000 unemployed
persons, who are. eligible for benefit under
this Clause. He has added to that num-
ber a further great category of agri-
cultural workers,
Mr. SCOTT: This' part of the Bill refers
only to Scotland. The hon. and gallant
Member is giving the figures for Great
Britain.
Major ELLIOT: I am giving the figures
for Great Britain because I desire that
the Minister should consider whether the
Amendment which I am moving and which
applies to Scotland would not be a suit-
able Amendment to apply to the whole
of Great Britain. The Minister has
brought in a further category, those whom
he deems to- be unemployed. [An Hon.
Member : Another million "] I do
not know what the number may be. Those
whom the Minister may deem to be un-
employed may cover a very wide field.
Then there are those whom the Minister
may deem to be agricultural workers.
What is the point of these figures 1 Let
us have the simple category that we have
had in Scotland, and under which we
have worked for many years, namely, the
category of the person. If the Minister
wishes to take so great a responsibility,
let him take the whole responsibility.
Let him simply make out a list. The
question then will not be whether a per-
son is unemployed, or has been unem-
ployed, or is deemed to be unemployed,
or is an agricultural worker, has been
an agricultural worker, or is deemed to
be.' an agricultural worker. These things
will not apply. The Minister will make
out his list and from that list he will
take, without fettering himself with ad-
ministrative webs, those persons in re-


327 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
gard to whom the Chancellor of the
Exchequer finds enough money to enable
them to be settled upon the land.
That is briefly the purpose of the
Amendment which we are bringing for-
ward. It may be said that it is broaden-
ing the matter too much. It is not
broadening the matter too much to sug-
gest that the percentage to be taken off
the existing list will be so small that
the power of choice of the Minister will
not make any difference to the real num-
bers of persons who come either to be
settled upon the land or who can get on
to such a list with any immediate pros-
pect of getting (smallholdings hereafter.
The hon. Member for Kincardine (Mr.
Scott) made the suggestion that those
already on the list should have a chance
of getting these facilities, but he with-
drew that or, rather, he ran away from
it, in a very unusual fashion for him, on
the assurance of the Minister that nearly
all those persons were covered under the
existing two categories of unemployed
persons and agricultural workers.
Mr. SCOTT: What more did I want?
Major ELLIOT: The hon. Member
might have thought for the minority. I
thought that his party were particularly
interested in the rights of minorities.
Merely to say that a minority is to be
unjustly or badly treated and is not to
have certain facilities that are being
found for everyone else, I should have
thought would have struck right home
to the heart of the hon. Member for
Kincardine and those who sit -with him.
But he now says, in effect, that it does
not matter. He accepts the old motto of
Mr. Birrell, that: "Minorities must
suffer; it is the badge of their tribe."
It does not matter. Only. 10 per cent,
of these people are to suffer this injustice.
Only 10 per cent, of these people, who
have been waiting for years, are to suffer.
Only 10 per cent, of the people who have
been denied these facilities by the
Government of which his present leader
was the head, and by successive Govern-
ments, are still to be baulked and to be
cheated of their hopes. That, I suppose,
is a small thing. Only 600 or 700 men are
to suffer. Let us make a stand for those
600 or 700 men. Why should it be
necessary for me to plead with the
Liberal party that the proposal which
they put forward should be stood to in
the Lobby ?
Mr. SCOTT: The hon. and gallant
Member is caricaturing the whole situa-
tion. I received a definite assurance from
the Under-Secretary of State for Scot-
land that practically 90 per cent, will
receive consideration for their applica-
tions. With regard to the remaining
10 per cent, it was represented that their
case was not urgent and that their
applications would not be entertained.
Mr. JOHNSTON : They are not eligible.
Major ELLIOT: I do not want to stress
the matter unduly. The proposals of
the Government have been transformed
entirely during the passage of this Bill
through Committee. From a Bill dealing
with unemployment relief they have
become a land settlement Bill, and as a
Land Settlement Bill the proposals are
not satisfactory. This Amendment is
moved in order to make them more
satisfactory.
Mr. JOHNSTON: It is perhaps too
much to ask the hon. and gallant Member
to allow us to pass from this point, but
may I assure him that the doleful picture
he has painted of the situation as it now
stands under the Bill has little or no
justification. He omitted to note
altogether the fact that we have some
4,000 approved applicants on our depart-
mental list, and if 90 per cent, of those
applicants are eligible it will tax the
resources of the Department for a very
considerable time to find suitable land
and the necessary homes and equipment
for them. If, in addition to this number
already on the approved list, we bring
in agricultural workers, many of whom
are unfortunately unemployed at the
moment and who, obviously, are persons
to whom any responsible Ministry would
give priority and preference in a matter
of this kind, it will be seen, if we add
these two classes together, that is, the
approved applicants already on our list
and the farm workers, a number of whom
are unemployed, that we shall have as
much on our hands as will tax the
resources of the Department for a very
long time to come.
If the Amendment to the proposed
Amendment were accepted we should
have a flood of thousands of additional
applicants, many of whom would be
doomed to disappointment. The very
examination of their claims, the clerical
work, would unnecessarily add to the
difficulties of the Department. If that


363 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMON'S (iUtilisation) Bill. 354
[Mr. Johnston.]
be so, and it is a reasonable statement of
the case, it would obviously be unneces-
sary and unwise to extend further the
list which is wide enough already and
which will tax our resources for a con-
siderable period. In these circumstances
I suggest to the hon. and
9.0 p.m. gallant Member, who is as
anxious as anyone for the
most efficient use shall be made of this
Bill, that he should not unnecessarily
clog the machinery and swell the appli-
cation list, but allow the Minister to deal
with registered applicants already on our
lists plus the agricultural workers who
were added with cordial unanimity in
the Committee upstairs.
Mr. BOOTH BY: The Under-Secretary
of State has not dealt with what seems
to me to be the real point of the Amend-
ment to the proposed Amendment, and it
is this. Why make this legislation un-
necessarily complicated. This is a Bill
upon which may be based a whole series
of land settlement Bills, extending over
many years, and it would be much better
to lay down the general principle and
say that land settlement should apply to
any person who in the opinion of the
responsible Minister is a suitable appli-
cant and well qualified for land settle-
ment. The Under-Secretary says that he
will be hard put to it to find positions
for those who are already on the list, and
he mentioned a figure of 4,000. That is
probably the case; but I cannot see the
reason for excluding these people when
you have included large categories
amongst the unemployed and agricul-
tural workers who are deemed to be
agricultural workers. Why should you
exclude any substantial section of the
community which maj^ contain people
who are perhaps better qualified than
anybody else to be settled in small-
holdings 1 I support the Amendment for
two reasons. In the first place, because
I believe it is necessary to set a precedent
in the matter of Land Settlement Bills
so that they will be able to be applied
in the future to the whole population.
Of course, the agricultural worker who
is unemployed must be a first choice in
any scheme of land settlement, but those
who have the cause of land settlement
at heart must believe that this is one
method of evacuating the towns and
getting the people to live in the country.
In the second place, I support the
Amendment because this legislation is so
complicated, and I see no reason why
the Minister should handicap himself in
this way for no purpose, as far as I can
see.
Amendment to proposed Amendment,
negatived.
Question, That those words be there
inserted," put, and agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
New Clause.(Power to arrange for
management by local authorities of
smallholdings and allotments pro-
vided by Minister or for the transfer
thereof to such authorities.)
(1) Any smallholdings or allotments pro-
vided by the Minister and any land acquired
by him for the purposes of smallholdings or
allotments in exercise of the powers con-
ferred on him by this Part of this Act may,
by arrangement between him and the local
authority, be either
(a) controlled and managed by the
authority as agents for the Minister; or
(b) transferred to the authority on such
terms as may be agreed between the
Minister and the authority and approved
by the Treasury.
(2) Any smallholdings, allotments, or land
transferred to a local authority under this
section shall be deemed to have been ac-
quired by the authority under the Small-
holdings and Allotments Acts.
(3) In this section the expression local
authority means, in relation to a small-
holding or to land acquired for a small-
holding, the council of the county, and, in
relation to any allotment or to land ac-
quired for allotments, the council of the
borough, urban district, or parish or any
county council acting in default of such
a council as aforesaid.[Br. Addison.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
Dr. ADDISON : I beg to move, That
the Clause be read a Second time."
This Clause has been moved in fulfil-
ment of an undertaking which I gave
during the Committee stage. It takes the
place of the original Clause 12 of the
Bill.
Question put, and agreed to.
Mr. GUINNESS: I beg to move, in
line 3, to leave out the word may,"
and to insert instead thereof the words :
" shall after not more than three years
from their provision by the Minister."
The Minister has told us that this
new Clause is in accordance with an


331 Agricultural Land 10 February 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 332:
undertaking given in Committee. I
would like to recognise the fact that the
right hon. Gentleman has met us to some
extent. In the original Bill there was
a provision that the Minister could
arrange for management by local autho-
rities, but there was no power to hand
over the smallholdings and allotment
estates to the ownership of the authority
now responsible for that class of adminis-
tration. In Committee we were anxious
to prevent the development of two rival
systems. We quite understood that,
given acceptance of the principle of the
Billto which we do not in any way re-
duce our oppositionit was inevitable
that" a temporary measure of control
should vest in the Ministry of Agricul-
ture in Jhe matter of training, of equip-
ment and of maintenance allowance, and
that until people were fairly settled on
the holdings under this new and untried
system obviously the Minister, being re-
sponsible for all this public money, must
control the early stages of the experi-
ment. But if we allow this Bill to enable
the Ministry permanently to carry on
the smallholdings and allotment estates
inevitably that would snuff out all the
efforts of the local authority, because
this Bill is offering greater inducements
and more favourable terms than were
ever available previously.
We believe that the local authorities
have an unrivalled and invaluable ex-
perience, in carrying on smallholdings
especially, and to a rather lesser degree
in the case of allotments. We believe
that they have done their smallholdings
work efficiently and cheaply, and we do
not wish to see a competitive and more
favoured system set up. To some extent
the Minister has met us. He has taken
powers to transfer to local authorities
at his discretion, with the sanction of the
Treasury. We want him to go further.
We want him to follow the precedent of
the Act of 1919. We cannot have the
same machinery, because under that Act
the provision of smallholdings was left
to the local authorities, and the State
by provisions which are inapplicable to
our present problem, had to make up to
the local authorities any temporary loss,
and finally to come to a settlement after
seven years. But we do feel that the
general principle of that precedent
should be followed, that we otight to con-
tinue the well-established system that
the smallholdings estates should be run.
by the responsible county authority. They
haye the land agents, they have the
officials and the organisation, they are
in touch with local conditions, and we
wish to see the new system eventually
absorbed in the very valuable work which,
has been carried on by the local autho-
rity.
The Amendment provides that after
three years it shall no longer be optional
to the Minister, But that he shall hand
over these estates to the authoritiesthe
county councils and the county borough
councils, with smallholdings, and the
existing allotment authoritiesso that
when this scheme has been set on foot
and has had a reasonable time for estab-
lishment the estate shall be run as part
of the general effort of the local autho-
rities.
Dr. ADDISON: I am sorry that I
cannot possibly accept this Amendment-
It would mean that at the end of three
years, when smallholdings or allotments
on an estate had been well-established,
the Minister would be compelled to hand
it over to the county council. I do not
stand second to the right hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Bury St. Edmunds
(Mr. Guinness) in my appreciation of the
work of the county councils. I recognise
the value of their work, but I think
it would be altogether unwise to compel
the Minister, whether he likes it or not,
and however well holdings might be
working, on any particular estate, to
hand it over to somebody else at the end
of three years. The new Clause shows
that I recognise fully the desirability of
co-operating with the local authorities as
much as possible, but it would not be
right to impose this requirement on the
Minister and therefore I cannot accept it.
Sir JOSEPH LAMB: There are three
Amendments to this new Clause on the
Paper, all, to some extent, similar, and
I wish to know, Sir Robert, if you pro-
pose to call that which stands in the
name of the hon. Member for Cambridge
(Sir D. Newton) and myselfin line 5,
after the word authority" to insert
the words and shall if the local autho-
rity so request." My position is that
if I cannot- have one Amendment I should
like to have the other, and I wish to
know whether I shall support the Amend-
ment now before the Committee, or wait
to move my own Amendment later.


333
The CHAIRMAN: I had not intended
to call the hon. Member's Amendment,
but I had intended to call the Amend-
ment in the name of the hon. Member
for Aldershot (Yiscount Wolmer)in
line 4, after the word authority" to
insert the words:
" and if the local authority at any time
after the expiry of the period of five years
subsequent to the date of such provision so
requires, shall."
Sir J. LAMB: 1 submit, Sir Robert,
that there is a difference between these
Amendments.
The CHAIRMAN: I know. There are
differences between Amendments in all
these cases.
Sir J. LAMB: While regretting that
my Amendment is not to be called, I
should like to support the Amendment
now before the Committee. I wish, first,
to express my thanks to the Minister
for the new Clause even as it is, and it
is very largely, I think, because of ques-
tions raised in the Committee that this
Clause has been proposed. The Minister
has taken power to allot the manage-
ment of these estates to the county
councils, or to transfer the estates them-
selves, but he has used the word "" may "
and that leaves the Clause far too wide
and too permissive for me. No time is
specified, and while I cannot now discuss
the Amendment which I have on
the Paper, I think it would have been
more suitable and would have allowed
the Minister more elasticity as to time.
Our object is to remove certain objec-
tions, and the first of these objections
is that under this proposal there will be
two authorities in the same area, ad-
ministering holdings. There will be the
county council, with the existing hold-
ings, and then the Minister will be creat-
ing new holdings in the same area. The
Bill gives greater facilities to those who
apply for smallholdings under this
Measure than it has been possible for
the county .councils to give to their
tenants, and thus two tenants, perhaps
side by side, may be working under
different conditions not only as to occu-
pancy but also as to finance and this
may create a sense of ill-feeling and in-
justice as between the two.
The conditions under which the
Minister can create holdings mean that
the whole of the loss will be upon the
Ministry, and, possibly, local authorities
(iUtilisation) Bill. 354
will cease to create holdings at all in
those circumstances. Under existing
arrangements, local authorities only re-
ceive up to 75 per cent., and consequently
25 per cent, falls on the rates. At the
present time, when there is such finan-
cial stringency, and such difficulty in
keeping down rates, there will be a
natural disinclination on the part of local
authorities to create holdings, when the
Minister can create them without loss to
the ratepayers. It is thus possible that
the county councils will leave the onus
of this duty to the Minister, and, in that
case, all the officials at present in the
counties for this purpose will remain,
while another set of officials will be
brought in to create and operate the new
holdings. The local authorities now have
their staffs of trained men, who are able
to manage these holdings very much
better than anybody who may be brought
in without local knowledge of the area.
It has been said by the Minister that
there are 27,521 smallholdings under the
authority of the county councils, and land
to the extent of approximately 500,000
acres, is under the control of those
bodies. The officials in charge of those
holdings know the varying conditions as
between different districts and that is a
great asset of which the Minister will
deprive himself unless he utilises their
services and hands over these holdings
to them as early as possible. The
Minister may create an estate on land
adjoining an existing estate of small-
holdings and thus there will be two dif-
ferent sets of holdings adjacent to each
other. The men who are going on to
these holdings will have a difficult task
to make them pay. They will require all
the assistance which they can getboth
smallholders and allotment holdersand
in the counties we now have the officials
who are best qualified to give advice,
and who know the local conditions.
Those officials are already engaged in
assisting local smallholders and allotment
holders under education authorities and
in connection with farming schools.
What necessity is there to duplicate all
these officials ? I think we have a right
to ask not only that this new Clause
should be added to the Bill, but that
there should be some definite statement
as to the time when these allotments will
be turned over to the local authorities.
363 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMON'S


335 Agricultural Land 10 February 1931 (iUtilisation) Bill.
336
The Minister may say that no reason-
able Minister would do what has he en
suggested. On the other hand, Ministers
come and Ministers go, particularly at
the Ministry of Agriculture, and in my
short experience of this House, I have
had the pleasure of 'knowing several
Ministers of Agriculture. I may say,
without offence, that there is no
guarantee that the present Minister is
going to stay there very long, and the
Minister who follows him may not he
bound by any suggestions which he
makes now or any obligation under which
he personally may place himself. It is
better to have these things in black and
white. As I have said before, there is
a great deal of nationalisation behind
this Bill. Hon. Members opposite are,
of course, entitled to their views, and
I hope I am entitled to mine. It may
be that there is no intention to turn
these holdings over to the county
councils at all, but instead to make them
into one large estate under the Ministry
with the idea, ultimately, of controlling
the whole of the land of the country.
I do not think we ought to run that
risk. Our experience in the past has
been that the Ministry, when they have
had holdings, as under the Smallhold-
ing Colonies Act have retained theim too
long, and that if those holdings had been
turned over to the counties sooner, con-
siderable losses would have been avoided.
I hope 'the Minister will accept at least
one oif these Amendments.
Sir B. PETO : There is one question
I want to ask. The Minister spoke of
the "possible development of this
policy." Does that indicate that it is
the ultimate policy of the Minister of
Agriculture to take over the whole of
the smallholdings in the country or not 1
It has been pointed out that it is,
obviously, undesirable to have two sets
of (smallholdings under two financial con-
ditions running side by side at the same
time. Is the Minister going to refuse
to hand back the smallholdings to the
administration of the county councils 1
I ask him to let the Committee know
before we go to a Division what was
meant by the phrase possible develop-
ment of this policy." Does that mean
that it is the definite purpose of the
Bill to do away with smallholdings under
the county councils altogether, and to
absorb them in one great department
administered by a Department of State ?
That leads me to another obvious ques-
tion, which is whether the development
of this policy means ultimate nationalisa-
tion 1
Question put, That the word may '
stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 252 ;
Noes, 123.
Division No. 143.]
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro')
Angell, Sir Norman
Arnott, John
Aske, Sir Robert
Attlee, Clement Richard
Ayles, Walter
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Barnes, Alfred John
Batey, Joseph
Bellamy, Albert
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South)
Benson, G.
Blinded, James
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret
Bowen, J. W.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Broad, Francis Alfred
Brockway, A. Fenner
Bromfield, William
Bromley, J.
Brooke, W.
Brothers, M.
Brown, Ernest (Leith)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)
Buchanan, G. '
AYES.
Burgess, F. G.
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland)
Calne, Derwent Hall-
Cameron, A. G.
Cape, Thomas
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Charleton, H. C.
Clarke, J. S.
Cluse, W. S.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Compton, Joseph
Cove, William G.
Cripps, Sir Stafford
Daggar, George
Dallas, George
Davles, E. C. (Montgomery)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Day, Harry
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Dukes, C.
Ede, James Chuter
Edmunds, J. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Egan, W. H.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univer )
Foot, Isaac
Forgan, Dr. Robert
Freeman, Peter
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
[9.27 p.m.
Gibblns, Joseph
Gibson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley)
Gill, T. H.
Gossling, A. G.
Gould, F.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Graham, Rt. Hon.Wm. (Edin.,Cent.)
Granville, E.
Gray, Milner
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Coine)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Mlddiesbro'W.)
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Groves, Thomas E.
Grundy, Thomas w.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Hardie, George D.
Harris, Percy A.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Haycock, A. W.
Hayday, Arthur
Hayes, John Henry
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)


337 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
Henderson, W. W. (Mlddx., Enfield)
Herriotts, J.
Hirst, G. H. (YorkW. R. Wentworth)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Hoffman, P. C.
Hopkin, Daniel
Hore-Bellsha, Leslie
Horrabin, J. F.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Jenkins, Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Sllvertown)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)
Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Klnley, J.
Kirkwood, D.
Lang, Gordon
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Lathan, G.
Law, Albert (Bolton)
Law, A. (Rossendale)
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Leach, W.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Lees, J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Longbottom, A. W.
Longden, F.
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
McEntee, V. L.
McKinlay, A.
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan)
MacNeill-Welr, L.
McShane, John James
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Mansfield, W.
Marcus, M.
Markham, S. F.
Marley, J.
Marshall, Fred
Mathers, George
Matters, L. W.
Maxton, James
Acland-Troyte, Lleut.-Colonel
Alnsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles
Albery, Irving James
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Atkinson, C.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman
Boothby, R. J. G.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart
Bracken, B.
Bralthwalte, Major A. N.
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)
Brown. Brlg.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Campbell, E. T.
Castle Stewart, Earl of
Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.SIr J. A.(BIrm.,W.)
Chapman, Sir S.
Christie, J. A.
Clydesdale, Marquess of
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Cohen, Major J. Brunei
Colvillc, Major D. J.
Melville, Sir James
Middleton, G.
Milner, Major J.
Montague, Frederick
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Morley, Ralph
Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Mort, D. L.
Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Muff, G.
Muggerldge, H. T.
Murnin, Hugn
Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)
Oldfield, J. R.
Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)
Palin, John Henry
Paling, Wilfrid
Palmer, E. T.
Perry, S. F.
Peters, Dr. Sidney John
Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
PIcton-Turbervill, Edith
Pole, Major D. G.
Potts, John S.
Price, M. P.
Pybus, Percy John
Quibell, D. J. K.
Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Rathbone, Eleanor
Raynes, W. R.
Richards, R.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Sprlng)
Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Ritson, J.
Romeril, H. G.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Rowson, Guy
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Sanders, W. S.
Sawyer, G. F.
Scott, James
Scrymgeour, E.
Scurr, John
Sexton, Sir James
Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Prestonl
Sherwood, G. H.
Shield, George William
Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Shlllaker, J. F.
NOES.
Courtauld, Major J. S.
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.
Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.
Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Llndsey,Galnsbro)
Croom-Johnson, R. p.
Dalkeith, Earl of
Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Davles, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)
Dawson, Sir Philip
Dlxey, A. C.
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
Duckworth, G. A. V.
Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Ersklne, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.)
Ferguson. Sir John
Flelden, E. B.
Ford, Sir P. J.
Forestler-Walker, Sir L.
Fremantle, Lleut.-Colonel Francis E.
Galbralth, J. F. W.
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Shinwell, E.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Simmons, C. J.
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Smith, H. B. Lees- (Kelghley)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Sorensen, R.
Stamford, Thomas W.
Stephen, Campbell
Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Strachey, E. J. St. Loe
Strauss, G. R.
Sullivan, J.
Sutton, J. E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)
Tinker, John Joseph
Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J.
Townend, A. E.
Vaughan, David
Viant, S. P.
Walkden, A. G.
Walker, J.
Wallace, H. W.
Watklns, F. C.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhonddap-
Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh, James (Paisley)
Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
West, F. R.
Westwood, Joseph
White, H. G.
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllflfr)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb*gh>
Wood, Major McKenzle (Banff)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Thurtle.
\
Hammersley, S. S.
Hanbury, C.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Haslam, Henry C.
Heneage, Lleut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J.
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N.)
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Kindersley, Major G. M.
Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak)
Lelghton, Major B. E. P.
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
Llewellln, Major J. J.
Long, Major Hon. Eric
McConnell, Sir Joseph
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Mason, Colonel Glyn K.
Merriman, Sir F. Boyd
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.
Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)
Mulrhead. A. J.
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)


340 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill. 242
Train, J.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Wayland, Sir William A.
Wells, Sydney R.
Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
WIndsor-Clive, Lleut.-Colonel George
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Withers, Sir John James
Womersley, W. J.
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
O'Connor, T. J.
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Penny, Sir George
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Ramsbotham, H.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Reid, David D. (County Down)
Remer, John R.
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennel!
Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Salmon, Major I.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Savery, S. S.
Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Simms, Major-General J.
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)
Skelton, A. N.
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dine, C.)
Smlthers, Waldron
Somerset, Thomas
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Thomson, Sir F.
Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Todd, Capt. A. J.
Motion made, and Question, "That the
Clause be added to the Bill," put, and
agreed to.
Bill reported; as amended, on recom-
mittal, considered.
The SECRETARY of STATE for
SCOTLAND (Mr. William Adamson):
I beg to move, That the Bill be now
read the Third time."
Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: On a point
of Order. I would like to draw attention
to the fact that only one hour and twenty
minute's is left for the Third Reading,
and, as a great many Members wish to
speak, that is a very short time in which
to discuss a Bill which has been very
much altered in Committee and on the
Report stage. I suggest that the
Government should give more time.
Mr. SPEAKER: There is no point of
Order, and it has nothing to do with me.
Mr. ADAMSON: This Measure is de-
signed to secure the better utilisation of
the land of this country, and I would
remind the House that it deals with
matters of fundamental importance to our
agricultural system. The House could
deal with no more important and urgent
matter, so fa.r as agriculture is concerned,
than this Bill. If we can deal success-
fully with the land problem, it will con-
siderably affect, directly and indirectly,
our unemployment statistics. We will
restore various parts of the country areas
which are becoming derelict, and we will
affect directly and indirectly the balance
of trade and secure greater economic
independence for our country:
The first part of the Bill deals with
what is called large-scale or mechanised
farms. For many years, various authori-
ties have urged that an experiment of
this kind should be made. There has
been, for example, the Selhorne Com-
mittee, which reported unanimously in
favour of this experiment, and I would
TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Captain Sir George Bowyer and
Sir Victor Warrender.
remind hon. Members on the other side
of the House that at least three Ministers
were on the Committee. Then Professor
Orwin, who has been frequently quoted
in these Debates as a strong supporter
of this proposal, has brought all his
knowledge of agriculture to bear in giving
an opinion in favour of large-scale farms.
We have the results of some experience
in various parts of the world, and, while
I am not going so far as to say that
large-scale or mechanised farming has
been (successful in every instance, yet this
much can be said, that it has the promise
of putting certain phases of our agricul-
ture on a better economic foundation. I
would emphasise, before I pass on to deal
with my next point, that though it is
only an experiment, yet it is an experi-
ment which it is well worth undertaking
by the people' of this country. Then, we
come to that phase of the Bill which deals
with our under-drained and under-
nourished land, land which requires re-
conditioning. The land may be in a
tsoured or ill-drained condition for many
reasons. The proprietors may be finan-
cially unable to keep their property in
an up-to-date state or they may be un-
willing to do so, hut in the national in-
terest it is imperative that our great
national asset should be kept in good
condition.
Thirdly, we come to the question of
demonstration areas. Here, in my opinion,
lie the most immediate ,and most obvious
hopes in the Bill for agriculturists. We
have been making experiments, though
not sufficient experiments, with a view
to avoiding waste and destroying pests
and trying to obtain better products, but,
alas, very frequently the discoveries of
our laboratories and our colleges take
time to filter through to our farmers and
smallholders, and the great value of the
provisions for setting) up demonstration
areas' is that they will be there ready
for the farmer and the smallholder to
No. 55
F


341 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill.
242
[Mr. Adamson.]
see for themselves what can be done.
Fourthly, we have the question of small-
holders. For many years past it has been
the considered policy of Government after
Government to assist in the provision of
smallholdings. This policy of sub-divid-
ing large estates and large farms has
been adopted by nearly every civilised
country in the world. A century ago in
this country the position was the other
way about, but now we, with every other
civilised country, are convinced of the
urgent necessity of maintaining a healthy
and contented rural peasantry. It is the
smallholder in Denmark who has captured
our butter and bacon trade, and it is the
smallholder of France and of Spain who
floods our markets with early potatoes.
Hence the value of this section of the
Measure, which will enable us to put
smallholders on the land. It will give
us the power of putting the unemployed
man or the farmworker on the land as a
smallholder and giving him a maintenance
grant up to £50 a year for the first year
until he begins to get some return from
his labours.
I estimate that in Scotland we shall be
able to make provisions for at least
700 families under this section, and,
obviously, if that can be continued for a
decade, we shall be able to increase the
number to 7,000 families, and in the
course of a lifetime we should change the
conditions of the countryside. Fifthly I
come to the question of allotments.
Here is one of the things which is' pro-
vided for in this Bill to which every one
of us has rendered lip service ; but this
Government has provided the money, and
the finding of the money is the acid test
of our interest in the development of
smallholdings. We propose to give unem-
ployed men, through local authorities, of
course, allotment holdings up to one acre
in extent, and we propose to supply the
money for seeds and implements. We
also propose to meet the approved
expenses of local authorities who engage
in the provision of these allotments.
Taken as a whole, I may fairly claim
that this Bill deals in a broad and com-
prehensive way with the major problems
of the soil so far as its productive
capacity is concerned. I do not urge that
this Measure, taken by itself, will be able
to solve all the problems of agriculture,
but taken in conjunction with our Market-
ing Bill, our Smallholders and Agricul-
tural Holdings Bill, our Livestock Licens-
ing Bill, with the great scientific
experiments such as the milk investiga-
tion in Lanarkshire which we are conduct-
ing and the development of the grading
and marking of beef, and taken in
conjunction with other Measures which
the Government has already declared its
intention to promote, I think we can
fairly claim that we are doing every-
thing-
Mr. CAMPBELL: Everybody!
Mr. ADAM SON : to give this greatest
industry and those who work on the soil
the opportunity of earning a decent and
economic livelihood. I am proud to
have been associated with this great
effort, greater, I may add, than
is being made by any Government
in the world to-day to place agricul-
ture on a sound and efficient basis.
Captain CROOKSHANK: I have not
been carried away by the right hon.
Gentleman's claim that he was supporting
a Measure before the House dealing with
the problems of the soil. I do not agree
with the right hon. Gentleman's state-
ment that the Bill would affect the
balance of our trade. I shall oppose the
Measure. I will not move, That the
Bill be read the Third time upon this day
six months," because it is so bad that we
do not desire to see it again. We have
had long Debates on the Measure, we
have had the kangaroo closure in Com-
mittee and an all-night sitting, and, as
I have listened to those Debates, I have
been reminded of the old question that
used to be in dispute among philosophers
as to whether it is the hen or the egg
which comes first.
All parties should be concerned to try
to place agriculture upon a better foot-
ing and make an endeavour to secure a
more prosperous future for the industry.
Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite,
and those sitting on the Liberal benches
seem to take the view that all you have
to do in order to bring back prosperity
to agriculture is to alter the tenure of
land and the system of marketing.
Those sitting on this side of the House
believe that it can only be done by con-
centrating efforts on a solution of the
problem of prices and seeing what can
be done to make agriculture profitable to
those on the land, who at the present
time are scarcely able to secure an
existence at all. That is the fundamental


343 Agricultural Land 10 February 1931 (iUtilisation) Bill.
344
difference between the two sides of the
House, and that difference is fully borne
out by the agricultural measures which
we have been discussing this week.
Let me remind the House what it is
that this Measure proposes. It proposes
to set up demonstration farms. That
experiment has no bearing whatever on
the problem of how to make both ends
meet with which the farmers are faced.
For whose benefit has this Bill been
framed ? It is not foj* the benefit of small-
holders or allotment holders. As a
matter of fact, it is no use to them to
have demonstration farms. This Measure
is of no particular advantage to existing
holders of land who are farming on a
large scale. The fact remains in spite
of the Prime Minister's strictures that
the people on the land know more about
their business than anything that can be
taught them by right hon. Gentleman
and hon. Gentlemen opposite.
With regard to smallholders, it is
agreed that there is some advantage in
developing that movement. The Minister
of Agriculture has told us that this
Measure will settle 700 families per
annum on the land. That statement
shows how useless this Measure will be
as a relief to unemployment. When we
come to the question of allotments, many
of us cannot help thinking that, good as
the movement is, and desirous as we are
of helping, the Government cannot base
their Measure on the success of an ex-
periment carried out under special cir-
cumstances in South Wales. What
applies there does not apply equally well
in other parts of the country. The
Minister of Agriculture always seems to
me to be in doubt as to
10.0 p.m. whether he is the Minister of
Agriculture or whether he is,
as in former days, following the medical
profession. He seems to say to the agri-
cultural industry, You are very sick,
take this pill, and it will do you good."
In my view, the agricultural industry re-
quires a strong chest protector against
the foreign winds that come across the
seas. Instead of giving us protection of
that kind, the right hon. Gentleman pre-
scribes a red pill labelled nationalisa-
tion."
You cannot find anyone in an agricul-
tural constituency who wants this
Measure. The only people who appear to
want it are the theorists who sit on the
benches opposite. We on this side object
to the Measure, first of all, because it is
hopelessly bureaucratic, and will promote
a great increase in the number of Gov-
ernment officials. That is inherent in the
development of a Socialist policy. We
also object to the policy of the Liberal
party who ought to know better than to
desert their former policy of being un-
bending supporters of individuality and
freedom. What are the Liberals doing in
regard to this Measure ? Our first objec-
tion to the Bill is to the bureaucratic
methods which are bound to follow from
all Measures of this kind.
Our second objection is that the
Minister of Agriculture is well known as
the champion spender, and in this policy
he is being aided and abetted by the
Members of the Liberal party, who have
already told us that there is a great deal
of money to be spent which the Treasury
will not see again. The Financial Secre-
tary to the Treasury told us this after-
noon that he did not expect that the ex-
penditure under this Bill would be en-
tirely remunerative. Our trouble is that
it is going to be frightfully expensive in
the opposite direction. The Minister of
Agriculture said that he expected to get
a great deal from the Treasury and that
he was sorry that he did not ask for
more. I do not think the present Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer while he is in
office he will allow the Minister of Agri-
culture to run away with too much of his
cash. We have been told by experts that
anybody who can make 3 per cent, inter-
est on money invested in land will be
doing very well, and that the State will
do very well if it can get a similar
return.
Another point to which attention must
be directed is the powers that are to be
found in Clause 3 of the Bill. This point
will be dealt with more adequately by
other speakers, but we must remember
that the Minister is taking powers which
it is an outrage to confer upon any
Department. The primary object of this
Measure seems to wobble between the
relief of unemployment and land settle-
ment. At the present time, it does not
incline much in either direction. We find
that the number of unemployed at the
present time is 2,624,000, 'and that total
is increasing ait the rate of 30,000 per
week. There is nothing in this Bill com-
mensurate with the problem with which
No. 55


363 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF
[Captain Crookshank.]
the Government is faced. It is a -bad
Bill. It cannot help agriculture. It
cannot help the agricultural worker. It
certainly cannot help the farmer, and it
cannot make farming pay. It is un-
doubtedly going to throw a great burden
on the taxpayer, and hurry on the
national bankruptcy to Which we are
rapidly heading under the present Govern-
ment. It is the worst of all forms of
legislation, because it is a hybrid between
the Liberal party and the Socialist party.
It is a Measure fathered by the right
hon. Gentleman the Member for Car-
narvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George),
brought into the world by the professional
skill of the right hon. Gentleman the
Minister for Agriculturewho, after all,
as a one-time Liberal himself, can recog-
nise its parentageand nurtured through
all its stages by the Government maid-of-
all-work, the Under-Secretary of State for
Scotland, who applied the necesisary
ginger from the Socialist iside. It is a
bad Bill, and when you, Sir, put the Ques-
tion, those of us who sit on these benches
will shout No with the utmost con-
viction, and will go into the Lobby per-
fectly certain that we are doing the right
thing.
Miss LLOYD GEORGE : I do not think
there has ever been any doubt as to the
attitude which the Liberal party will take
on this Bill. We support a good thing
when we get the chance. We have given
it every facility that it was in our power
to give at every stage, and those of us who
were on the Committee upstairs imposed
upon ourselves a self-denying ordinance
so that the passage of this Bill might not
be delayed through any fault of our own.
But we welcome the Bill principally
because it is a Measure to relieve unem-
ployment and to regenerate the country-
side, or, perhaps I should say, a Measure
which can relieve unemployment. We do
not attach quite ithe same importance to
Clause 1 of the Bill as hon. Members
above the Gangway appear to do. We
have had a great deal of discussion on
that Clause, and we are still rather
puzzled as to what its purpose is. The
demonstration farms are to extend and
supplement the work done by the local
authorities, the universities, and the.
agricultural colleges in the way of ex-
periments, testing out new machinery, and
popularising modern methods of farming.
COMMON'S (iUtilisation) Bill. 354
Then, in the next stage of the Bill, we
get a provision which deals with drainage
and reclamation, and, all these purposes,
are to be achieved in Clauses 2 and 3.
. We are, therefore, a little puzzled as
to what is the purpose of Clause 1, but
it certainly has this advantage for hon.
Members above the Gangway. Those of
them who see dispossessed Kulaks in
every corner, and the hand of Stalin in
every Clause of the Bill, can represent
it as being nothing less than the be-
ginning of the Russian system of farming
in this country, but I think we can rest
assured that Stalin would disclaim an ex-
periment on this scale. But it has an
advantage also for hon. Members oppo-
site. They can claim it as another stage
in their slow but sure progress towards
the Socialist state. They can say that
it is not so much an experiment in large-
scale farming as an experiment in small-
scale Socialism. We feel about it that
" if it'll do nae guid it'll do nae ill."
We are not so enthusiastic about this
particular Clause, but we feel that its dis-
advantages are outweighed by the second
part of the Bill.
The main and the primary purpose of
this Bill is we think, the regeneration of
the countryside. Hon. Members on these
benches have consistently and persistently
advocated a back to the land policy
since the days before the War, and the
need for it was not quite so urgent then as-
it is to-day. I think it is admitted on all
hands that such a movement has never
been so possible as it is to-day, when we
have 90 per cent, of our operatives
crowded into the towns, and 2,500,000 out
of work. Many of these men will never
be restored to their old industries, and
it is essential to provide a new outlet for
their labour. Everyone says that they are
agreed on the principles of the Bill, but
when it comes to apply those principles,
there is not the same unanimity. The
right hon. Gentleman the leader of the
Opposition said, in a pronouncement
which he made some time ago -.
" I regard it ias vital that the great basic
industry of agriculture should not merely
be preserved, but restored to a more
prosperous condition as an essential balanc-
ing element in the economic and social life
of the country."
That cannot be done while the popula-
tion is disappearing as it is to-day, and
it is equally certain that you cannot
restore the equilibrium unless you


347
Agricultural Land
HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill.
242
transfer a great deal of the weight from
one scale to the other. But there is a
sort of defeatist attitude on land settle-
ment on the benches above the Gang-
way. Hon. Members above the Gangway
are full of gloomy prophecies and fore-
bodings. There is a sort of idea that
you cannot make the urban worker into
an agriculturist unless he be born again,
except of course in the Dominions,
There the impossible becomes the pos-
sible, and even the miner, if he be in
Saskatchewan or Assiniboia, will, some-
how or other, adapt himself to a country
life. But it is a very different proposition
to settle miners on the British country-
side. You may send them to training
centres, you may give them every facility,
but, somehow or other, it is going to be
almost impossible for them to adapt
themselves to a country life. And yet
it is a very curious thing that the history
of the past few years has shown us how
fatally easy it is for an agricultural
labourer, without any training what-
soever, to adapt himself to an urban
occupation.
Hon. Members above the Gangway say
that there will be failures. Of course,
there will be failures. The hon. Mem-
ber who has just sat down said that my
right hon. Friend the Member for Car-
narvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George)
[Hon. Members: Hear, hear!"]
said that some of this money would never
be seen again by the Treasury. I do not
defend the right hon. Gentleman[Hon.
Members : "Hear, hear! "]I think ho
is quite capable of doing that himself.
But I would say that in this case, as, I
think, in many other cases, he is facing
realities. Of course, there will be
failures. You can never effect a mate-
rial change in the balance of population
unless you are prepared to face risks, and
also to face a certain amount of loss.
At the .same time, we had one very
serious objection to the Bill as it was
originally drafted, and that was that the
agricultural labourer was excluded from
the benefits that were to be given to
others. The people who know about the
land were to be excluded, and the people
who know less or nothing about the land
were to be given .special facilities to
settled in the countryside. We believe
that that discrimination, if it had been
made, would have given rise to a very
great sense of injustice among the agri-
cultural workers in the country.
Everyone is glad that the unemployed,
who have been through hard and bitter
times, should have this opportunity of
reinstatement and a fresh, chance in life ;
but it would have been neither equitable
nor just to do it at the expense of the
lowest paid worker in industry. It would
have been a case of robbing Peter to
pay Paul. We are not told whether it
created any ill feeling between them,
but there are not many of us in that
historic succession, and I feel quite sure
that this would have created a very deep
and abiding resentment between the un-
employed man and woman and the agri-
cultural worker, which we think would
have been justified. Many of these
labourers have, after all, been anxious
and eager to get a smallholding for years,
and they have not had the capital to
enable them to do so. It is not reason-
able to expect that an agricultural
labourer can save enough out of 31s. a
week to secure a holding, to equip it,
and to maintain it for that first year
which, after all, is the trial year. How-
ever frugal, however self-denying they
may be, it is impossible for them to do
it. Under this Bill they would have
been passed over, and all that financial
assistance and all the benefits which they
have been awaiting would have been
given to others.
We are very glad that the Committee
upstairs and this House have accepted,
without Division, the Clause which brings
the agricultural labourer into this Bill.
I know that the right hon. Gentleman
had grave misgivings about it at one
time. He had many fears. We think
that they were exaggerated. He warned
us that he might find it necessary to
hedge the Clause round with safeguards.
I believe that, if the feeling in the
Committee upstairs had been recipro-
cated in this House, those safeguards
would have been blown sky high, and
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman
has, instead, decided to throw them to
the winds himself. I think it is good
that the agricultural labourer should be
given this first measure of justice, and
that it should not be given as a half
measure with a grudge, but as a whole
measure with a good grace. The right
hon. Gentleman said in the Committee
upstairs that he did not want to be a


349
[Miss Lloyd George.]
party to offering a man something that
he could not supply. I do hope that he
is not going to be guided in this matter
by the principle of
" Many are called, but few are chosen."
Even if the whole of the 2,500,000 work-
less, and the 200,000 agricultural workers
which was the figure that the right hon.
Gentleman calculatedwere settled on
the land, the percentage of our popula-
tion on the land would still be less than
it is in Belgium. I hope very much that
he will make his calculations on a broad
basis.
We believe this new Clause is justified.
After all, for half-a-century we have had
the workers moving from the countryside
into the towns, simply because there is
no inducement to them to remain on the
land. We think this Bill in its original
form would have done nothing to check
that migration; indeed, it might have
encouraged it, because it would have
been, perhaps, the only chance the
agricultural labourers would have had of
'securing holdings. It would at least
have made them eligible for a holding.
It may be said that by this Bill you are
denuding the countryside of the ordinary
agricultural worker. I know of no policy
that could be devised that would do that
more effectively than the policy which we
have been pursuing for the past few
years, a policy which has desolated many
villages in many parts of the country as
effectively as any plague could possibly
have done. It may be argued that this
has a very negligible effect on the actual
figures of unemployment, yet, when you
compare two figures which I should like
to give the House, it has 'a very great
significance. The first is that, during the
peak period, 12,000 labourers on an
average have left the land every year.
The second is that in very nearly two
years the Government have only suc-
ceeded in providing work for 86,000 men,
and yet in those two years 24,000
labourers have left the land.
There is one fact which the Ministry's
returns show which is more ominous than
any other. It is that in the last nine
years the regular male workers on the
l'and under 21 have declined by 23 per
cent. I think the House will agree that
that figure proves more accurately than
any argument could do that the young
men will not be satisfied with a career
(iUtilisation) Bill. 354
which starts and ends, 'as far as they can
see, with a wage of 31s.. So in ever-
increasing numbers they make their
effective protest by going to seek at least
a better fortune in the towns, and,
whether they are successful in obtaining
work or not, either way they make
longer the queue outside the Employment
Exchange. We think it is worth a good
deal to give these men an inducement to
stay on the land.
We on these benches congratulate the
Minister on his courage in bringing for-
ward this Bill. Whether it will be an
effective Measure to deal with unemploy-
ment depends upon him and, to a greater
extent, upon the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer. He is master of all the forms
of intimidation that are known. As far
as I can see, the Trade Disputes Act of
1927 has not affected his powers very
much. We hope there will be no peace-
ful picketing of the right hon. Gentleman
at the doors of the Treasury. We believe
it is a good machine, but we hope that it
will not be kept in the garage, that it
will not be merely for the show room to
show what the Labour Government can
do, but that it will be used to carry large
numbers of these rather we'ary and dis-
illusioned travellers to a more hopeful
destination.
Lieut.-Colonel WSNDS0R-CLtVE : We
have every cause to complain of the
manner in which the Government have
dealt with this Bill. After entrusting
the Chairman of the Committee upstairs
with the power of the Kangaroo Closure,
they ought to have given ample time
for a discussion of this Bill on the Re-
port stage. It is obvious that they have
not done so, because here we are with
only one hour and 20 minutes left for
the Third Reading of the Bill. We have
had to press two days' work into one,
and have an all-night sitting as well.
During that all-night sitting I do not
think that the Minister's handling of
the Bill was good. He might have
shortened our proceedings during the
night very considerably if he had
accepted at once a certain Amendment
for which he allowed the House two
hours' discussion. Also, during last
Wednesday night, there might have been
a good deal less talk if we had had more
assistance from the Law Officers of the
Crown. We are delighted to see the
learned Attorney-General make one of his
363 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMON'S


851 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
rare visits to. the Treasury Bench during
the course of this Bill. I am afraid that
not even the eloquent speech of the
Secretary of State for Scotland can brjfcig
good into this Bill, although if there
was anything good in it the delightful
speech of the hon. Lady the Member
for Anglesey (Miss Lloyd George) would
(have done it.
I object to this Bill primarily because
it involves such a very large expendi-
ture which we- cannot afford and which
gives, as far as I can see, no correspond-
ing benefit to agriculture. Surely, it
ought to be an accepted principle that
there should be no increase in national
expenditure except what is essential to
give assistance to productive industry.
This Bill certainly does not perform that
function. It does nothing whatever to
make farming pay. I believe the pro-
vision for large-scale farming to be en-
tirely unnecessary in this country. The
only certain result which we know will
come from it will be that there- will be
a reduction in the number of men em-
ployed on the land. The Debate on the
Amendment to omit the word let"
in Clause 1 (2, c) showed very clearly
that by this Bill there is being estab-
lished machinery which can lead to
nationalisation. The hon. Member for
Anglesey rather taunted us with the
bogey of Stalin. We cannot get Stalin
all at once. Is this not the first step in
that direction?
Under Clauses 2 and 3 there is pro-
vision for the expenditure of £5,700,000.
I make no apology for repeating what has
been said before on this1 Bill. I do not
see the use of expending all this money
to recondition land which cannot properly
be cultivated when you have done it. If
the Government would take steps to fulfil
their own pledge to make farming pay,
it would not be necessary to spend so
much public money on reconditioning the
land. With regard to smallholders, the
hon. Lady said that we were defeatists
and pessimists in regard to the subject.
If we look at the plight of so many of
these people who have spent many years
upon the land, we have some justification
for being rather pessimistic about it at
present. She said that we only applauded
smallholdings in the Dominions, but, at
any rate, the Dominions see to it that
their producers are not exposed to the
full blast of foreign competition. This
Bill does nothing whatever to make farm-
ing pay. That being so, I oppose it on
the ground that it is a very gross waste
of public money.
Mr. GUINNESS : At this late hour and
with so short a time available for the
Third Reading Debate it is impossible
to attempt to deal with the vicious pro-
posals in this Bill. I wish to devote the
few moments at my disposal to a protest
against the methods which the Govern-
ment have used to drive the Bill through
the House of Commons. We all know
that the origin of this Bill was not in
any way agricultural. It was purely
political. We politicians are sometimes
said to be rather self-centred, but no one,
however satisfied he may be with his
political convictions, on the other side of
the House can be under any delusions
that this Bill has got any agricultural
opinion behind it. It is criticised by the
overwhelming mass of those who live1 by
the land. But the opposition of the agri-
cultural industry has only stimulated the
Government in their determination to
force the Bill through and to defeat any
attempt at argument by means of the
Kangaroo and the Closure. This Gov-
ernment, who are always bemoaning their
fate as a minority Government, have
denied the liberty of Debate in a way
that has never been attempted before.
[Hon. Members : You had all night! "]
I will come to the all night sitting. That
was not free discussion. That was a way
of preventing public knowledge of what
is proposed in this Bill.
There has been no free discussion.
There has been very little public ventila-
tion of the dangers involved to the agri-
cultural industry by the proposals in the
Bill. We are accustomed to the
Kangaroo procedure on the Floor of the
House, but in connection with this Bill
it has been applied under unprecedented
conditions upstairs. After curtailment
of debate in Committee upstairs, we
naturally expected that there would at
least be a normal opportunity of discuss-
ing the Bill on the Floor of the House,
but the Government, after the extra-
ordinary procedure upstairs, demanded
that a Bill which had taken 12 days in
Committee should be given only three
days for the remaining stages on the
Floor of the House. It was impossible,
even with the utmost efforts to avoid any
kind of unnecessary debate, to compress
the discussion into so short a period.


363 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF
[Mr. Guinness.]
We finally got four days. How did the
Government compress the Debate into
this very short period 1 They forced us
to sit for nine hours after the normal
time for the rising of the Housemore
than equivalent to a full Parliamentary
day.
The Minister of Agriculture has got, as
we all know, a very disarming manner,
but if you cover the tyres of a steam
roller with velvet you do not in any way
prevent its crushing effect. His method
has been absolutely to stifle discussion.
He gave away his methods in the early
hours of the morning, when we sat up
all night. He told us that Clauses 1, 2
and 3 were the most important part of
the Bill. He secured that important
part of the Bill, or a very great part of
it, at a time when there could be no
adequate Press report, and when the
House was in no physical condition to
give proper consideration to it. We
were considering Clause (1) from 11
o'clock till 2; Clause (2) from 2 a.m.
to 4 a.m.; and Clause (3) from 4 a.m.
to 8 a.m. And we are fo have two
Government speeches on the Third Read-
ing Debate, which is to last one hour
and 20 minutes. I do not remember any
Government Bill being supported on
Third Reading by two Government
speeches. The history of this Bill in this
House will, I hope, be realised when it
reaches another place-{Interruption.]
I am glad to be able to stress the stifling
of Parliamentary Debate by the methods
adopted in connection with this Bill for
the information of both agriculturists in
the country and the other place, so that
they may realise that the Government
has arbitrarily refused the normal right
of the House of Commons to deliberate
this Measure, and may give it their
special consideration.
The Bill retains all its original
blemishes. Part I is absolutely useless
for the object proposed, the assistance
of agriculture. Where the experiment
can be usefully applied it has already
been carried out, and there is no case
for this large experiment, this large
expenditure on what is called large scale
farming : and in any case a tenth part
of the £1,000,000 proposed would be
ample to test Professor Orwin's theories.
The way to get land reconditioned is to
make it pay, not to pour out public
money regardless of an economic return.
COMMON'S (iUtilisation) Bill. 354
The provision for reconditioning land
has never received any detailed examina-
tion on the Floor of the House. We
were only able under the Kangaroo to
propose to leave out the whole sub-sec-
tion, but the most dangerous innovation
is to lay it down that all this money
can be spent, without any economic justi-
fication, but merely if in the opinion of
the Minister reconditioning and drain-
age is necessary to enable the land to be
used satisfactorily. The only possible
way of testing whether public money
should be poured out to improve the con-
dition of the land is to gauge the return
which can be expected, and it is an
absolutely damning condition of this
Bill that this money can be poured out,
not in order to get any economic return
hut simply because the Minister is of
the opinion that poor land can be im-
proved.
The Minister of Agriculture is vindi-
cating his well-earned and well-estab-
lished reputation as a financial megalo-
maniac. He scorns to deal with any
financial unit less than £1,000,000. In
the first part of the Bill he goes in for
round numbers, such as £6,000,000. Of
course the ll/80ths condition about Scot-
land will compel him to descend to a
fraction of a million. We believe that
all" this money is going to be wasted,
that there is no justification for this
uneconomic expenditure on large-scale
experiments and reconditioning of land
in these very difficult financial times. I
do not think it has been adequately
realised outside Parliament that the
£6,700,000 under Part I of the Bill is
a mere fleabifce of the unlimited expendi-
ture which can be incurred under
Part II. We have never succeeded in
getting from the Minister any informa-
tion as to the amount which he is going
to spend or the rate at which he pro-
poses to carry on his powers.
To-night we have been told, in a very
effective speech from below the Gang-
way, that the Liberal party, though they
do not altogether like Part I, look on
Part II as a very good thing. The Gov-
ernment have been given very strong
support by the Guardian Angel who is
speaking on behalf of a party which is
the real author of this Bill. We can
assume that the warmth and shelter of
those wings are being held over the Gov-
ernment only because the Government


356
Agricultural Land
HOUSE OF COMMONS
(Utilisation) Bill.
242
are going to carry out the programme of
the Liberal party. We had figures given
in the Liberal programme of 100,000 and
even 200,000 families to be settled on the
land. Under this Bill every thousand
families so settled will cost at least
£1,000,000. So if we are to have 200,000
families settled it means an expenditure
of £200,000,000.
We were told by the Financial Secre-
tary to-dayto summarise a rather com-
plicated financial statementthat for
every £20,000,000 expended the taxpayer
would have to face an annual expendi-
ture for 20 years of £1,000,000. So if we
are to spend money to re-establish on
the land 200,000 families, we shall have
for 20 years at the peak period an annual
expenditure of no less than £20,000,000,
borne upon the Vote for Part II of the
Bill alone. We believe that there is
nothing in the Bill to help the agricul-
turist in his present difficulty. There is
very little left in the Bill after the
acceptance of the Amendment of the hon.
Lady the Member for Anglesea (Miss
Lloyd George) to provide any assistance
in the matter of unemployment, because
quite properly, after that Amendment,
the first consideration must be given to
those who live on the land. At a moment
when public opinion demands that there
should be a decrease in our present ex-
penditure in order to give our industries
a chance of re-establishing themselves,
this Bill would throw on us a burden of
huge and growing financial commitments.
It is an interesting first-fruit of the
Liberal and Socialist delusion that our
agricultural and industrial depression can
be cured by borrowing money and spend-
ing it on uneconomic purposes.
Dr. ADDISON: Before I come to the
more controversial portions of the right
hon. Gentleman's speech I will, in accord-
ance with my promise, make a short
statement to the House with respect to
the progress of the allotments part of this
scheme. I may say in response to the
Noble Lord the Member for Aldershot
(Viscount Wolmer) that I have made in-
quiries and I find that we have every
reason to adhere to our original anticipa-
tion of providing material for 100,000
allotments. It is still early in the day
to deal with these matters and many
authorities have not yet completed itheir
purchases, but, generally speaking, and
by the help of all parties, I must say we
are receiving the promptest assistance.
As a matter of fact, as showing how mis-
taken some of my Scottish colleagues
would have been had they carried that
Amendment which would have limited ex-
penditure in Scotland to eleven-
eightieths, my information is that Sir
William Waterlow to-night accompanied
by one of Ihe officers of the Department
is on his way to 'Scotland to buy 1,000
tons of seed potatoes. May I, at his re-
quest, make an appeal to Members in
every part of the Housebecause I recog-
nise that Members on all sides are sup-
porting the allotments part of the scheme
that in any districts where the authori-
ties are not yet active in this matter,
Members will do their best to stir up
those authorities, and will tell those
authorities to get into association with
our Allotments Committee.
With regard to the progress of small-
holdings, I do not commit myself to the
kind of figures which the right hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Bury St. Edmunds
(Mr. Guinness) mentioned. First may I
say that the whole House will agree with
me in paying a tribute to the hon. Lady
the Member for Anglesey (Miss Lloyd
George) who presented her case with
such .singular felicity. I think I may say
that we recognised some sparks from an
old and rather familiar anvil. Whilst as
I say I cannot follow the right hon.
Gentleman in his predictions I would
take upon myself the responsibility of
saying, at this last moment, that I recog-
nise that, in providing a large number
of smallholdings, you are embarking upon
an enterprise which necessarily requires
time for fulfilment and I sincerely hope,
whatever may happen hereafter, that this
great project will not be interrupted. We
propose that if we can to start it upon
lines which everyone will recognise as
sound, and which we hope will be con-
tinued, but, with the best will in the
world, it takes time first to select your
applicants and then to obtain the land
much of the land in this country being
only vacated at Michaelmas and Lady
Dayand when you have obtained posses-
sion of the land, to subdivide it and
build houses and so forth. I wish the
House to recognise that we are fully con-
versant with these realities and we know
that they will take time, but the fact


367 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
[Dr. Addison.]
that they exist only means that we must
tackle them with courage and with vision
beforehand.
As far as we are concerned, while
recognising the physical limitations in
the early days, we intend to do our very
best to give full effect to the intention
of Parliament in this matter. I am quite
sure that if in the early months or years
we can develop a system which is sound
in its working and in its machinery as
regards equipment, land, the provision of
staffs and capital, we shall have started
an organisation which not even a hostile
Government will dare to bring to a
standstill. I do not take the view of this
Bill that the right hon. Gentleman does ;
nor does the majority of the House. 1
cannot understand how it is arrived at
because, notwithstanding all the
denunciations we have heard, every
Member of the House will recognise that
no argument has been addressed to con-
vince us that it was wrong to try to bring
unemployed men, where suitable, to work
on the land. The right hon. Gentleman
took the gross cost of smallholdings, but
I want him to bear in mind what we are
setting against it. If a man is equipped
with a holding, supposing it does take
£1,000, what have you got? You have
a house and a home and land, equipment,
and a self-supporting citizen no longer
drawing unemployment benefit. You have
to put all these things against the cost.
I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman
that when he described this as pouring
out public money, he was using terms
which do not apply.
I regard this as a first-class national
investment. If right hon. Gentlemen
think, as their contention seems to mean,
that it is a better investment to leave
these poor fellows hanging about the
towns without giving them a chance and
simply paying them so much a week to
do nothingif that is the issue between
us, I am proud to take up the standpoint
which we on our side take up. From
beginning to end there has never been
a vestige of alternative constructive
suggestion. I thank the hon. Lady for
her great contribution. Let us look at
the other side. Being bereft of arguments
with which to defeat the Bill, the
Opposition has fallen back on metaphor.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member
for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) conjured
up to his aid some vague inhabitants of
a blessed region, while another hon.
Member, in denouncing the Bill, said it
was the Brobdingnagian output of a
Lilliputaian brain. Finally, the right hon.
Gentle-man the Member for the New
Forest (Colonel Ashley), in a speech with
which he treated the country last week,
thoroughly let himself go, and said, more
or less, that we were fitting disciples of
Mephistopheles who had better look to
his antlers lest they were outdone bj
those of the Minister of Agriculture.
I came to- the conclusion when I
listened to these diatribes, that in Com-
mittee upstairs and on the Floor of the
House we thoroughly defeated the Oppo-
sition. The fact is that they had no case
left against the Bill, and had to fall back
on this kind of thing. They had to call
to their aid Gulliver and Faust and other
people of the mystical world. This House
has not heard, either on the Floor of the
House or in Committee, any reasoned
case against taking waste land, and
putting it to use. It has never heard a
case against taking land that needs
draining, and draining it. It has never
heard a case against taking an unem-
ployed man who is fit and his wife, and
giving them training, and enabling them
to earn a living out of cultivating land
that needs cultivating. Finally, jfist
when we are going to send it along the
passage to' another placewhich I hope
will appreciate its transcendent merits
sent with the approval of the Committee,
fortified by examination in this House,
and with no material matter ever left
undiscussed, they now, at the eleventh
hour and, shall I say, at the 58th minute,
tell us that their Lordships will deal with
it. The right hon. Gentleman anticipates
the result; in other words, he sends his
orders to their Lordships. We accept
that challenge. If those who have the
land refuse it to the landless, it will not
be the first time they have made the
attempt but I will undertake to say that,
as before, that endeavour will bring re-
tribution. The right hon. Gentleman's
challenge, as his denunciation, leaves us
cold. This is a good Bill, and people
know it is a good Bill, and I hope that
by a large majority we shall give it a
Third Reading.
Question put, That the Bill be now
read the Third time."
The House divided: Ayes, 282;
Noes, 226.


359 Agricultural Land
10 February 1931
('Utilisation) Bill. 360
Division No. 144.]
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigic M.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hiilsbro')
Alpass, J. H.
Angell, Sir Norman
Arnott, John
Aske, Sir Robert
Attlee, Clement Richard
Ayles, Walter
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bliston)
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley)
Barnes, Alfred John
Barr, James
Batey, Joseph
Bellamy, Albert
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South)
Benson, G.
Blinded, James
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret
Bowen, J. W.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.
Broad, Francis Alfred
Brockway, A. Fenner
Bromfleld, William
Brooke, W.
Brothers, M.
Brown, Ernest (Lefth)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire)
Buchanan, G.
Burgess, F. G.
Burgin, Dr. E. L.
Buxton, C. R. (York*. W. R. Elland)
Caine, Derwent Hall-
Cameron, A. G.
Cape, Thomas
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Charleton. H. C.
Chater, Daniel
Clarke, J. S.
Cluse, W. S.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Compton. Joseph
Cripps, "Sir Stafford
Daggar, George
Dallas, George
Dalton, Hugh
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery)
Davles. Rhys John (Westhoughton)
Day, Harry
Dudgeon, Major C. R.
Dukes, C.
Duncan, Charles
Ede, James Chuter
Edmunds, J. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Egan, W. H.
Elmley, Viscount
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Unlver.)
Foot, Isaac
Forgan, Dr. Robert
Freeman, Peter
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Glbbins, Joseph
Gibson, H. M. (Lanes. Mossley)
Gill, T. H.
Glllett, George M.
Glassey, A. E.
Gossling, A. G.
Gould, F.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Granville, E.
Gray, M liner
Greenwood. Rt. Hon. A. (Colne).
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Griffith, F. KIngsley (Middlesbro* W.)
AYES.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Groves, Thomas E.
Grundy, Thomas W.
Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Hardie, George D.
Harris, Percy A.
Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon
Hastings, Dr. Somerviile
Haycock, A. W.
Hayday, Arthur
Hayes, John Henry
Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)
Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)
Herrlotts, J.
Hirst, G. H. (York, W.R.,Wentworth)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Hoffman, P. C.
Hotlins, A.
Hopkin, Daniel
Hore-Bellsha, Leslie
Horrahin, J. F.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph
Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R.
Isaacs, George
Jenkins, Sir William
John, William (Rhondda, West)
Johnston, Thomas
Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint)
Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Sllvertown)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston)
Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford)
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.
Kinley, J.
Kirlcwood, D.
Knight, Holford
Lang, Gordon
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Lathan, G.
Law, Albert (Bolton)
Law, A. (Rossendale)
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge)
Lawson, John James
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle)
Leach, W.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern)
Lees, J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Lloyd, C. Ellis
Logan, David Gilbert
Longbottom, A. W.
Longden. F.
Lunn, William
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness)
McElwee, A.
McEntee, V. L.
McKinlay, A.
MacLaren, Andrew
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.)
Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
McShane, John James
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Mansfield, W.
Marcus, M.
Mark ham, S. F.
Marley, J.
Marshall, Fred
Mathers, George
Matters, L. W.
[11.0 p.m.
Maxton, James
Melville, Sir James
Mlddleton, G.
Mills, J. E.
Milner, Major J.
Montague, Frederick
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Morley, Ralph
Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Mort, D. L.
Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent)
Muff, G.
Muggeridge, H. T.
Murnin, Hugh
Naylor, T. E.
Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Noel Baker, P. J.
Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)
Oldfield, J. R.
Cllver, George Harold (Ilkeston)
Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)
Palin. John Henry
Palmer, E. T.
Perry, S. F.
Peters, Dr. Sidney John
Pethick-Lawrence, f. W.
Phillips, Dr. Marion
Picton-Turbervill, Edith
Pole, Major D. G.
Potts, John S.
Price, M. P.
Pybus, Percy John
Quibell, D. J. K.
Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Rathbone, Eleanor
Raynes, W. R.
Richards, R.
Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Ritson, J.
Romeril, H. G.
Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Rothschild, J. da 1
Rowson, Guy
Salter, Dr. Alfred
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Sanders, W. S.
Sawyer, G. F.
Scott, James
Scrymgeour, E.
Scurr, John
Sexton, Sir James
Shaw. Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Sherwood, G. H.
Shield, George William
Shiels. Dr. Drummond
Shillaker, J. F.
Shinwell, E.
Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Simmons, C. J.
Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)
Sitch, Charles H.
Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Snowden, Thomas (Accrlngton)
Sorensen,, R.
Stamford, Thomas W.
Stephen, Campbell
Strachey, E. J. St. Loe
Strauss, G. R.
Sullivan, J.
Sutton, J. E.
Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.)


362 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 242
Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Thurtle, Ernest
Tinker, John Joseph
Toole, Joseph
Tout, W. J.
Townend, A. E.
Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Vaughan, David
Viant, S. P.
Walkden, A. G.
Walker, J.
Wallace, H. W.
Aciand-Troyte, Lieut-Colonel
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles
Albery, Irving James
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Llverp'l.,W.)
Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.)
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W.
Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent, Dover)
Atholl, Duchess of
Atkinson, C.
Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley)
Balfour, George (Hampstead)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet)
Balniel, Lord
Beamish, Rear-Admlral T. P. H.
Beaumont, M. W.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon
Betterton, Sir Henry B.
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn)
Birchail, Major Sir John Dearman
Bird, Ernest Roy
Boothby, R. J. G.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft.
Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W.
Boyce, Leslie
Bracken, B.
Braithwaite, Major A. N.
Brass, Captain Sir William
Briscoe, Richard George
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Brown. Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Buchan, John
Bullock, Captain Malcolm
Butler, R. A.
Butt. Sir Alfred
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Campbell, E. T.
Carver, Major W. H.
Castle Stewart, Earl of
Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Chadwlck, Capt. Sir Robert Burton
Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Blrm.,W.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)
Christie, J. A.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer
Clydesdale, Marquess of
Cobb, Sir Cyril
Cockerill, Brlg.-General Sir George
Cohen, Major J. Brunei
Colman, N. C. D.
Colvllle, Major D. J.
Courtauld, Major J. S.
Courthope. Colonel Sir G. L.
Cranborne, Viscount
Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.
Croft. Brigadier-Genera! Sir H.
Crookshank, Cpt.H.(Llndsey,Gainsbro)
Croom-Johnson, R. P.
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)
Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Dalkeith, Earl of
Watkins, F. C.
Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh, James (Paisley)
Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
West, F. R.
Westwood, Joseph
White, H. G.
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Blrm., Ladywood)
Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Williams, David (Swansea, East)
NOES.
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Davies, Dr. Vernon
Davles, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovil)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)
Dawson, Sir Philip
Dixey, A. C.
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert
Duckworth, G. A. V.
Dugdale, Capt. T. L.
Eden, Captain Anthony
Edmondson, Major A. J.
Elliot, Major Walter E.
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.M.)
Everard, W. Lindsay
Falle, Sir Bertram G.
Ferguson, Sir John
Fermoy, Lord
Flelden, E. B.
Flson, F. G. Claverlng
Ford, Sir P. J.
Forestier-Walker, Sir L.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.
Galbraith, J. F. W.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley)
Glyn, Major R. G. C.
Gower, Sir Robert
Grace, John
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.)
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N.
Greene, W. P. Crawford
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London)
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Gritten, W. G. Howard
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.
Gunston, Captain D. W.
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwlch)
Hamilton, Sir George (llford)
Hammersley, S. S.
Hanbury, C
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)
Haslam, Henry C.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.
Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller
Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar)
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Hurd, Percy A.
Iveagh, Countess of
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Klndersley, Major G. M.
Knox, Sir Alfred
Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R.
Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, H;gh Peak)
Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)
Leighton, Major B. E. P.
Lewis, Oswald (Colchester)
Little, Sir Ernest Graham
Llewellfn, Major J. J.
Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey
Locker-Lampson, Com. 0.(Handsw*th)
Long, Major Hon. Eric
Lymington, Viscount
McConnell, Sir Joseph
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Maltland, A. (Kent, Faversham)
Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Wilson C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Wise, E. F.
Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
Young, R. S. (Islington, North)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES. -
Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Paling.
Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Margesson, Captain H. D.
Marjoribanks, Edward
Mason, Colonel Glyn K.
Meller, R. J.
M erriman, Sir F. Boyd
Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond)
Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester)
Muirhead, A. J.
Nelson, Sir Frank
Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W. G.(Ptrsf'ld)
Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
O'Connor, T. J.
O'Neill, Sir H.
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Peake, Capt. Osbert
Penny, Sir George
Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Power, Sir John Cecil
Pownall, Sir Assheton
Purbrlck, R.
Ramsbotham, H.
Rawson, Sir Cooper
Refd, David D. (County Down)
Remer, John R.
Rentoul, Sir Gervals 8.
Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y)
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecciesanj
Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Ross, Major Ronald D.
Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouthl
Salmon, Major I.
Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Savery, S. S.
'Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Simms, Major-General J.
Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)
Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.)
Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Smithers, Waldron
Somerset, Thomas
Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)
Steel-Maltland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South)
Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Thomson, Sir F.
Tinne, J. A.
Tltchfield, Major the Marquess of
Todd, Capt. A. J.
Train, J.
Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement


363 China Indemnity
10 February 1931 (Application) Bill. 364
Turton, Robert Hugh
Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.
Warrender, Sir Victor
Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Wayland, Sir William a.
Wells, Sydney R.
Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Wlndsor-Cllve, Lleut.-Colonel George
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Withers, Sir John James
Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount
Womersley, W. J.
Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Worthfngton-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
Wright, Brlg.-Gen. W. D. (Tavlst'k)
Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
TELLERS FOR THE NOES-
Commander Sir Bolton Eyres-
Monsell and Major Sir George
Hennessy.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
CHINA INDEMNITY (APPLICATION)
BILL.
Not amended (in the Standing Com-
mittee) considered.
Lord HUGH CECIL: I beg to move,
" That the further consideration of the
Bill be now adjourned."
I can assure the Government that this
Motion is not due to any hostility to the
Bill, but merely in order that an oppor-
tunity may be given to those who are
interested in it from an educational
point of view to propose such Amend-
ments to the Bill as we think may be
required. [Hon. Members: "Speak up;
we cannot hear you "] We are very
anxious that in the arrangements which
are made in the Bill the interests of
Chinese culture in the universities should
be considered. No provision is made in
the Bill for supporting those studies even
in the universities which have already
devoted some attention to them. There
is provision in the Schedule for £200,000
to be given to the universities, and it is
to be administered by a committee which
is to be a chartered body. The proposed
charter has not yet received the Royal
approbation and its exact purport is not
yet known. But, as far as it is known,
it does not appear to make provision for
supporting the studies in Chinese
language and culture in the universities
which have so far been devoting them-
selves to the subject, and we are anxious
to have a full opportunity of thinking
the matter over and so being able to
formulate whatever Amendment is re-
quired to provide that those universities
which have already devoted their atten-
tion to Chinese culture should receive
whatever support can be given to them
out of the indemnity. It seems rather
strange, though I have no doubt the
Government have good reasons for it, to
give £200,000 out of the indemnity to a
body which has not yet any legal exist-
ence. This committee has not yet received
the Royal Charter, I understand, and it
is odd that the Bill should be carried out
of the House of Commons to the other
House of Parliament with a provision
in it which gives £200,000 to a body
which has not yet any legal position.
Therefore, we are anxious for a little
time in which to think the thing over,
not with the smallest hostility to the Bill
or to what the Government design in it,
but in order to carry out what, I am
sure, they wish as much as we, namely,
the cultivation of Chinese studies in
London, and the use of the money for
the purpose of such studies. For this
reason I have been asked to move a short
postponement, of some days, perhaps, in
order that we may look into the matter
and formulate our proposals in a more
distinct form. I do not know whether
the Government would be prepared to
receive a deputation from the universities
interested, but I feel sure that, in what-
ever way it may be brought about, there
might be a private interchange of counsel
between the Government and the univer-
sities interested, with the object of pro-
moting this object which is common to
us all. I hope that the Government will
be able to assent to this Motion, or, if
not, to assure us of their co-operation
in the object which we have at heart,
which is to use this money to promote
a mutual understanding between China
and Great Britain by encouraging the
study of the Chinese culture and
language in the universities of this
country.
The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE
for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Dalton):
The Noble Lord has moved this Motion
in a speech with a great part of which
I am in full sympathy. As he said, the
universities have come forward in this
matter rather late in the day. The Bill
was printed before Christmas; it was
read a Second time in this House with-
out a Division ; and during the Second
Reading Debate the point which the
Noble Lord has raised was not made by
any of the university representatives in
this House. It was then considered by
a Standing Committee, and the point
was raised by my hon. Friend the Mem-


366
China Indemnity 10 February 1931 (Application) Bill.
364
[Mr. Dalton.]
ber for Cambridge University (Sir J.
Withers) ; and I then made a statement
on behalf of the Government to the effect
that we were advised that it would be
competent for the Universities China
Committee to devote some part of the
£200,000 allocated to them in the Bill
to increasing the provision for Chinese
teaching in the universities.
I had hopes that that satisfied the
universities who raised the point. I
gather, however, since the Noble Lord
has raised the matter again to-night, that
they are not completely satisfied, and,
in response to the appeal that he made
at the end of his speech, I am authorised
to say that I myself, or someone else
acting on behalf of the Government, will
o 1
be perfectly ready to meet representa-
tives of the universities and discuss the
matter. We have taken the view from
the beginning that one of the objects
not the exclusive object, but one of the
objectswhich should be carried out by
the Universities China Committee in
allocating this money, was an increased
provision for the teaching of Chinese
in the universities. If it be the case
that this is not sufficiently clearly within
their competence, we are quite willing
to consider what amendment might be
made in the Bill in order to put that
point beyond question.
I cannot, however, accept the proposal
that we should not dispose of the Bill
to-night. I would rather suggest that
such a consultation should take place,
and that in another place an Amendment
should be moved on behalf of the Gov-
ernment, consequent upon consultation
between representatives of the Govern-
ment and representatives of the univer-
sities. I hope that, that undertaking
being given, as I do unequivocally give'
it, we shall be able to get the final
stages of this Bill to-night. There are
dependent upon this Bill other matters
than increased provision for the teach-
ing of Chinese/ There are £3,000,000
worth of orders for British industry, .and
these we are unwilling to see postponed
any longer than is absolutely necessary.
There are other provisions also of an
educational and industrial character,
and the Government attach great im-
portance to getting the Bill forward with
the least possible delay. I hope, in
view of the statement I have made_, the
Noble Lord' will not press his Motion,
but will, with other university repre-
sentatives, enter into consultation with
us for further elucidation of the point
which still .seems to be in doubt.
Mr. SPEAKER: I have not made up
my mind yet whether this is a Money
Bill. There is some doubt about it, and
I should not like to say off-hand that
this will be a Money Bill. If that were
the case the House of Lords would not
be able to amend it.
The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of
TRADE (Mr. William Graham): On that
point may I submit that the Bill, of
course, imposes no charge. It merely
introduces certain variations in the use
of the fund, and it may be that on that
basis you will be prepared to indicate
now that there will be less difficulty in
dealing with it in another place by way
of Amendment, such as my Eon, Friend
has suggested.
Mr. SPEAKER: That is hardly the
point. The point is that if the Bill is
exclusively a Bill dealing with money I
have to certify it as a Money Bill. It
does not follow that it makes a charge
at all. If it exclusively deals with money
I have to certify that it is a Money Bill.
Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: We
who wish to know the exact conditions
in which we are acting are all grateful
for the warning that you, Sir, have just
addressed to the House. The Govern-
ment will not wish certainly to offer any
undertaking which it would be beyond
their power to fulfil. That warning does,
I think, very materially alter the situa-
tion from what it was when the Under-
Secretary was speaking, and I would once
again press the request made by my hon.
Friend in no more unfriendly spirit than
that with which he himself presented it,
for the hon. Gentleman opposite knows I
am deeply committed to the general
principles and purposes of the Bill,, and
have its objects quite as much at heart
as he has. I would press his request
again, ,so that at least we may be assured
that if, as the result of these promises,
an Amendment is to be desired, we may
not have put it beyond our power to
make that Amendment, and find that it
is not within the power of the other
House to amend it.


China Indemnity 10 February 1931 (Application) Bill. 368
367
One other point I would ask the hon.
Gentleman to consider. I understand
from what my Noble Friend said that the
China Parliamentary Committee is to be
constituted and its functions defined by
a Royal Charter. I do not think that
Royal Charter has received the Royal
approval yet and I presume it cannot
have been laid before Parliament. Does
he not think it would be fair to allow
Parliament to see what is the constitution
and what are the powers of the body
to which is to be entrusted this sum be-
fore we finally decide whether to leave
everything to their discretion, or
whether it is desirable that the House
should formally indicate its own wishes
as to the form which the expenditure of
part of this money should take. I .submit
that it really would be improper to part
with the Bill without knowing whether
the Amendments which the Government
are ready to make in another place can
be considered by that House ; and it is,
in addition, highly desirable that we
should have a draft of the Charter before
us when determining what powers we en-
trust to the Committee and what limita-
tions we impose upon those powers.
Sir JOHN WITHERS: I wish to rein-
force the remarks of my right hon. Friend
the Member for West Bromwich (-Sir
Austen Chamberlain). The whole point
is a very short one. As far as the
Charter which has been indicated to us
is concerned it would not enable the
committee to make university grants. If
that is so, the whole idea of benefiting
the university goes by the board. If
there is difficulty the Government should
appreciate it and enable us to discuss
with them the provisions of the Charter,
to see whether they have the powers to
do what they wish to do. I think there
is nothing more to be said on the matter.
Captain BOURNE: I wish to deal for
a minute with a point of procedure. In
view of your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, I will
ask the Government to postpone the con-
sideration of this BiTTTor a short time.
If, as you have indicated, this may be a
Money Bill it is obvious that it cannot
be amended in another place. The
Under-Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, speaking to-night, has indicated
that the Government are willing to con-
sider certain Amendments. I am not
in a position to say whether those
Amendments are desirable or not, but
I urge that the House should have the
opportunity of considering them if they
cannot be moved in another place. This
seems to be a very strong argument for
the Government to consent to postpone
for a short time the Amendments put
on the Paper. I do not believe that
this Bill is so urgent that a week's post-
ponement will do any harm, and I feel
that it is most desirable that there should
be a postponement.
Mr. CHURCHILL: Surely we are
going to have an answer from the
Government ?
Mr. GODFREY WILSON: It is only
fair to explain why at the last moment
this question should be brought up. I
should like to make it clear that it was
only last Sunday that the Vice-Uhan-
cellor of Cambridge University sent for
me and showed me a letter he had re-
ceived from the Secretary of the Univer-
sity Bureau of the British Empire. In
this memorandum, there is a draft
Charter for the Universities China Com-
mittee. The purposes which the Univer-
sities China Committee are to follow are
laid down, and those purposes, I think,
I must be allowed to read.
" The purposes of the Universities China
Committee, hereinafter called the govern-
ing body, shall he :
(1) to co-operate with the universities of
the United Kingdom through the Univer-
sities Bureau in arranging for representa-
tive Chinese men and women to visit and
lecture in this country, and similarly for
British men and women to visit and lecture
in China;
(2) to co-operate with other interested
bodies in asssisting Chinese .students in
this country to find hospitality and suitable
living accommodation;
(3) in consultation with the Universities
Bureau and with university and other
authorities concerned with higher educa-
tion to advise Chinese students as to their
course of studies in this country, and as
to other matters connected therewith."
This is the important purpose:
" (4) generally to encourage intellectual
co-operation and to promote cultural re-
lations between China and the United King-
dom."
The point which universities par-
ticularly desire to press is that of No. 4
beginning with the word generally,"
and following very .specifically what is
mentioned in 1, 2 and 3, which might
easily be held to exclude the particular
purposes which we have in mind, and is


370 China Indemnity 10 February 1931
[Mr. Wilson.]
one of the objects of which the Govern-
ment have also indicated their consent
and approval. It is in order to get that
point, which only came to our notice a
few days ago, made perfectly clear, that
it is being raised at this last moment.
Mr. ERNEST BROWN: I hope that
the right hon. Gentleman will agree to
a postponement of the Debate. The
point raised by the Noble Lord is im-
portant. I am not clear whether or not
it is competent for us to discuss the
details of the charter in this House. I
am not at all .sure that it is not a matter
of His Majesty's privilege and that the
Government cannot give the undertaking
which is asked. Therefore, it is im-
portant that a postponement should be
granted1 and that consultations should
take place, in order that we may be sure
of what we are doing with the money
and in order that the universities may be
so placed that the money will serve the
purpose which we mutually desire.
Mr. W. GRAHAM: I think the House
will agree that the position of the Gov-
ernment is quite clear in this matter, but
I shall briefly repeat it, before making a
proposal to the House. The Second
Reading of the Bill was taken and also
the Committee stage upstairs, and there
was no suggestion at all of postponing
it at either of those stages. Nor had
the Government any intimation from the
Noble Lord, or any other hon. Member,
that a Motion for the postponement of
the proceedings on the Bill was in-
tended to-night. I desire to make that
perfectly clear. At the same time, my
hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs pointed out that if
there was a desire to clear up this
matter of the use of the fund, more par-
ticularly as related to the Universities
China Committee, an opportunity
would be afforded for discussion
and any Amendment that was agreed
upon would be inserted in another place.
Since that declaration was made, Mr.
Speaker has indicated that it might be
ruled that this is a Money Bill. As you
have not finally ruled on that matter,
Mr. Speaker, I hope I shall not be lack-
ing in respect if I say that I took the
view that this was not merely a matter
of the allocation of funds, but referred
to contracts and other subjects, and did
not particularly bear on the question of
(Application) Bill. 364
a charge. I think it cannot be regarded
as a Money Bill, but I do not want to
argue that now. It may be that that
view will prevail. If that view can be
regarded as correct, then an amendment
can be made in another place, but I
must bear in mind, with great respect,
Mr. Speaker's view. His view may be
taken, that this is a Money Bill, and
that therefore any Amendment would be
precluded in another place, and it would
be inconsistent with my hon. Friend's
offer to run the risk of our being pre-
vented from moving an Amendment on
that point which may be mutually
desired. If the House will accept that,
explanation, which I think will be
accepted, I am quite willing in the cir-
cumstances to postpone the further con-
sideration of this Bill for a few days,
and to suggest to the House that we
might to-morrowmy hon. Friend the
Under-Secretary and othersconsult to-
gether in order to clear up the matter,
and, if possible, to arrive at an agree-
ment.
Lord H. CECIL: I wish to thank the
right hon. Gentleman for his suggestion,
with which I heartily agree.
Sir A. CHAMBERLAIN: Might I sug-
gest that a draft of the Charter should
be issued as a White Paper, so that we
may know what is really the determining
document in this matter ?
Mr. GRAHAM: I cannot give the
Noble Lord any reply on that point. I
think we had better wait until after we
have had a joint meeting to-morrow to
ascertain the position with regard to this
Charter.
Question put, and agreed to.
Ordered, That further consideration
of the Bill, hot amended, be now
adjourned."
Bill, not amended (in the Standing
Committee), to be further considered,
to-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and
postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the
Cloch upon Tuesday evening, Mr.
Speaker adjourned the House, without
Question put, pursuant to the Standing
Order.
Adjourned at Thirty-seven
Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.




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179 Private Business. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Oral Answers. 180 HOUSE OF COMMONS. l'uesday, lOth Feb1uary, 1931. [OFFICIAL REPORT.) The House met at a (Jua1ter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair. PRIVATE BUSINESS. Public Offices (Sites) Amendment Bill, Ordered, That the Examiners of Petitions fQr Private Bills do examine the Public Offices (Sites) Amendment Bill with respect to compliance with the Standing Order>s relative to Private Bills. New Junction Canal Bill, Calder and Hebble Navigation Bill, W althamstow Corporation Bill, Reported, with Amendments ; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to ibe printed. ORAl ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS. SCOTLAND. HousiNG. 1. Mr. McKINLAY asked the Secre tary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the formation of a brickmakers selling agency in Glasgow and the West of Scotland, and that the said agency will control the supply of 100,000,000 bricks per annum; whether he is aware of the intention of this agency to fix minimum prices; and what steps he proposes to take to safeguard the operation of the Slum Clearance Act to prevent any attempt to raise prices against local authorities proceeding with s c hemes of re-housing under the said Act 1 The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Johnston): I have seen a Press report to the effect that an agency on t h e lines indicated by my hon. Friena is being set u p If it should appear that the operations of tliis agency result in !l.n increase in the price of bricks,_ the matter e be brougl:it to the InterDepartmental C to \ No. 55 J survey the prices of building materials, but I earnestly trust that the anticipated increase in the number of houses to be built consequent on the passing of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, will not in any quarter be used as an opportunity to increase the cost of building materials. 2. Mr. TRAIN asked the Secretary of State for Scotland the number of houses built in Glasgow under the various Housing Acts since 1919; the number at present let; and what arrears of rent are outstanding 7 Mr. JOHNSTON: As the answer involves a rather long tabular statement, I propose, with the hon. Member's permission, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Mr. TRAIN: Wm the hon. Gentleman, in considering this question, consider bringing into line the rents of the houses under the various schemes, and making comparable rents for comparable houses 7 Mr. ]01-INSTON: The question on the Paper asks, not for an answer o n policy, but for a table of statistics. I suggest to the hon. Member that he should pursue his suppelmentary question on another occasion. Following is the answer.: The number of houses built in Glasgow under the various Housing Acts since and including that of 1919 up to 31st December, 1930, is as follows : By Local Authority : Housing Town Planning etc. (Scotland) Act, 1919 Housing etc. Act, (a) General (b) 1Slum Clearance ... Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924 Housing (1Scotland) Act, 1930 By Private Enterpri,se : Housing (Additional Powers) 4,988 2,480 4,684 12,974 25,126 Act, 1919 146 Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919, Public Utility Societies 85 Housing etc. Act, 1923 2,338 H0using e tc. Act, 192 3, Public Utility Societies A

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181 Oral Answers. HOUSE OF CO.MMONS Oral Answers. 182 Act, showing that they estimate that Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924 Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924, Public Utility Societies 2,840 60,201 houses are required to meet their needs, and that they intend to provide 40,822 of these houses in the next three years. The local authorities are being asked to expedite the completion of the Government Steel Houses 5,409 details of these proposals so that full advantage can be taken of this year' s 760 building season. Grand Total ... 31,295 I am informed that all the houses built by the corporation are at present let, and that the amount of arrears of rent outstanding on these houses (including recoverable arrears) is approximately ,200. Corresponding information relating to houses built by assisted private enterprise is not available. 3 Mr. TRAIN asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many local authorities have submitted schemes to the Scottish Department of Health under the recent slum-clearance legislation ; bow many h ave been approved ; and if any have begun operations 7 Mr. JOHNSTON: As the answer i s long and involves a number of figures, I propose, with the non. Member's permis sion, to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Following is the answer: The Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, does not require the submission of formal schemes by local authorities, but only of proposals for dealing with insanitary houses. Up to date, the Department of Health for Scotland have approved for the purposes of subsidy under the Act. proposals for the erection of 612 houses by five local authorities, and these authorities have begun operations. In addition, Clearance Resolutions have been submitted to the Department by five other local authorities in terms of Sub-section 2 of Section 1 of the Act in respect of 40 areas embracing 1, 780 houses occu pied by 7,424 persons. I am aware that proposals are under consideration by many other local authorities. I may add that 117 out of 227 l oca l authorities have submitted to the Department general statements in terms of tSub-section 2 of Section 22 of the CHILD ADOPTION ORDERS. 5. Mr. MATHERS asked the Lord Advocate whether he is now fully informed of the difference in the cost of obtaining child adoption orders in Scot land as compared with England ; and what steps is he taking in an endeavour to simplify and cheapen the Scottish procedure 7 The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Craigie A.itchison): I am not aware of any difference in cost, but, if my hon. Friend will put before me any concrete case in which the charges appear to be excessive, I will have the matter looked into. Mr. MATHERS: Is my right hon. and learned Friend not 'aware that, very largely, the difference in the costs entailed in putting through an adoption order in Scotland as compared with England is due to the heavy charge for the errnployment of a curator ad htem; and is it not possible for provision to be made, 'a.s I know is done in England, for some voluntary agency to undertake this The LORD ADVOCATE: The expense of a curator ad litem ,is not greater in Scotland than in England. I understand that in England there is a practice of responsible people undertaking the work voluntarily, and, if this suggestion were made to the Courts in Scotland, I have no reason to think but that it would b e give n e ffect to. COAL INDUSTRY. ROYALTIES. 7. Mr. TINKER asked the Secretary for Mines the amount o royalties paid in Lancashire during 1928 and 192 9 7 The SECRETARY for MINES (Mr. Shinwell): The estimated total amount of royaltie s paid by colliery owners in Lancashire and Cheshire in 1928 was ,300, and in 1929 ,400.

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183 Oral Answe1'S. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Oral Answers. 184 Sir GEORGE HAMILTON: Can the hon. Gentleman .say what part
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185 Oral Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Oral Answers. 186 [Mr. Macdonald.] Great Britain, along with the number
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187 Oral Answers. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Ora.i A.nswers. 188 of a proposed a-greement in a district, which might be referred to the Board by either party a.fter a failure to settle the dispute in accordance with the arrangements existing for that purpose in the district. It is clearly impossible to give any estimate of the number of diSiputes (if .any) which may be referred to tJhe Board in the future in the circumstances referred to. AcciDENTS. 10. TO 0 LE a.sked the SecretaTy for Mmes how many -colliers have lost their lives in pit disa.sters during the la.st 20 years? Mr. SHINWELL: For the purposes of this answer I am assuming an artificial distinction between an a-ccident and a. disaster a.nd treating .as disasters a-ccidents in which 10 or more lives were lost. There were 22 such disasters in and about mines under the Coal Mines Act 1911 during the 20 years 1911 to 1930 ing in 1,070 deaths. Of tJhese 682 were caused by three disasters. Mr. TOO LE: Ca.n the Minister give me any fig'Llres 'showing how many mining royalty owners have been injured in the pits during the same period ? TRADE AND COMMERCE. EMPIRE MARKETING BoARD. 15. Mr. MANDER asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs the amount that it is proposed to spend on research and publicity through the Empire Marketing Board in 1931 as -compared with previous years ? The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas): Subject to tlhe necessary provision being made by Parliament, it is proposed to spend from the Empire Marketing Fund, in 1931, ,000 on research and ,000 on publicity. The approximate amounts spent in the last feiW years on these services ha.ve been respectively. as follows : On Research.-,000 in 1927, ,000 in 1928, ,000 in 1929, and ,000 in 1930. On Publicity.-,000 .in 1927, ,000 in 1928, ,000 in 1929, and ,000 in 1930. 17. Mr. GRAHAM WHITE asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs whether any tangible evidence has been produced of the commercial value of the expenditure incurred by the Empire Marketing Board 1 Mr. TH 0 MA.S: It is impossible to assess the commercial results of the Board' s work in the wide field of Empire production with which its research, marketing and publicity activities are concerned. Individual instances, however, are frequently brought to notice in which the work of the Board has been of direct commercial advantage to Empire producers, both at home and overseas. Mr. WHITE.: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that this publicity gives full value for the ,000 which he proposes to spend on it? Mr. TH 0 MAS: I know that there is a number of people who dispute the value of this expenditure, especially those engaged in other kinds of publicity. Mr. HANNON: Is it not a fact that the trade organisations in the Dominions, whenever they have had the opportunity, have expressed appreciation of the admirable work that is being done by the Board 7 Mr. THOMAS: The Imperial Oon ference unanimously commended it. Mr. MANDER: Do they make any contribution towards it? Mr. HAYCOCK: If there is such appreciation, why is there not reciprocity on the part of the Dominions ? RussiAN TRADE AGREEMENT (DOMINIONS). 18. Mr .. ALBERY asked the .Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, in view of the fact that none of the Dominions have entered into negotiations for the admission of a Russian trade delegation, whether he has drawn their attention to the facilities afforded by articles four and six of the Russian trade agreement? Mr. THOMAS: His Majesty'.s Govern ments in the Dominions were kept fully in touch with the negotiations leading up to the Agreement in question. The terms of the Agreement itself, as finally con cluded, and of the accompanying declarations were also, of course, communicated to them.

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18g Oral Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Oml Answers. 190 Mr. ALBERY: Has the right hon. Gentleman received from Canada any expression of opinion as to trade relations with Russia? Mr. THOMAS: No. All the Dominions were communicated with and the terms of the Agreement submitted to them. It might be misunderstood and it would be impertinent on my part to ask whether they understood what this A_greement meant. TIMBER. 22. Mr. PRICE asked the President of t'he Board of Trade what is the present a.verage whole.sale price of a standard of Russian timber imported into tlhis country and what was the price for 1928, 1929, and 1930; what is the presen t retail pri.ce of a standard o.f the usual size o f 'buiLdin g timber in this country ; a.nd what was tlhe price of the same in 1928, 1929, and 19301 The PRESIDENT of. the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. William Graham): I am unable to furnish any information as to tlhe average wholes ale price af a standard of Russian timber imported into this country, :but the average declared values per load of saJWn soft timber imported from Russia in 1928, 1929, and 1930, were 14s. 2d., 12s. 3d., and 4s. 9d., respectively, while in De cem lber, 1930, the a.verage declared value WCIIS 8s. 9d. .AJecording to particulars pub lished in the Builder tfhe. wholesale price per standard of timber described as good building deal, 3 by 9 inche s, wa.s from the beginning o:f 1928 to 14th November, 1930, when the price fell to at wlhich figure. it ha.s remained up to the present time. No information is available as to the retail price of timber. 40. Sir ARTHUR STEEL-MAITLAND asked the President of tlhe Board of Trade the quantities od' timber imported into this country from Canada, N.orway, Bweden, Finland, and Russia for each of the year.s 1928, 1929, and 1930? Mr. GRAHAM: As the answer contains a number of figures I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. F allowing is the answer: The following 'l'ABLE shows the total quantities of Wood and Timber imported into the United Kingdom and regiRter, d as consigned from the undermentioned Countries during the years 1928, 1929 and 1930. Country whence consigned. 1928. 1929 1 1930. HMd W ood.[Oth" Wood. HMd Wood .[Oth" W ood.l RaN Wood.[Oth" Wood. Cu. ft. Load. Cu. ft. I Loads. 1 Cu ft. 5,165,698 305,401 4,805,14!'> 306,112 3,932,761 294,843 Canada ... Norway ... Sweden ... 24,3'2'2 357,774 16,58il 393,716 12,51R 341,553 6R,287 1,41i6,93< 45,425 1,739,114 48,103 1,403 135 964,949 1,817 042 1,41 il,430 1,996, 14R 1, 58 0,36 4 1,614,480 Finland ... Soviet Union (Russia). 209,751 1,675,71 9 259,185 2, 324,113 199,ti62 2,931,261 I I WAR MATERIAL (ExPORTS TO RussiA). 25. Major-General Sir ALFRED KNOX asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will g iv e a list o f the materia l s of war despatched from Great Britain to Soviet Russia from June, 1929, to December, 1930 Mr. W. GRAHAM: I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a state ment showing the details as recorded. Sir A. KNOX: Does this include Mr. GRAHAM: Yes. They amount to only 44, 000, !but tanks are included under the last heading, namely, military and naval ordnance stores. Captain GUNSTON: Will it lbe possible to find ou t the war material imported into Russia fro m other countries Mr. GRAHAM: I am afraid I could not furnish details. It is as much as I can do to answer for this country.

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191 Oral Answers. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Oral Answers. 192 Captain PETER MACDONALD: Is it Mr. SPEAKER: That does not anse not a fact that cash payments were made on this question. for these war materials? Following is the statement: THE FOLLOWING TABLE shows the total quantity and declared value of the exrorts of arms ammunition and military and naval stores of domestic manufactme from Great Britain and Northern Ireland registered during the period from June, 1929, to December, 1930, botL as consigned to the Soviet Union Description. Unit of Quantity. Declared Quantity. Value. Ammuni tion : Sporting Ammunition : Loaded Cartridges No. 500 3 Cwt. -Other, including shot, but excluding empty cart ridg'l cases. Cwt. 80 } 197 Blasting (including detonators, cables, etc.). Cwt. -46 High Explosives, other than blasting powder, collodion cotton, and trinitrotoluol : Gelatinous ... ... ... .. .. Cwt. 268 1,800 Rockets and other pyrotechnic products ... .. (a) R9 330 Explosives and Ammunition, not eldewhere specified in the Export List. (a) Arms: Ordnance: Automatic machine and quick firing guns and thereof No Cwt. 1 1 l j 623 Gun mountings and carriag e s and parts thereof .. No. 5 } 444 Cwt. 1 Small Arms: Sporting Guns .. No. 2 } 222 Cwt. Military, Naval and Ordnance Stores and appliances, not elsewhere specified in the Export List. -(a) 40,251 'l'otal 44,U05 _______________________ ____;__ ________________ (a) Recorded by vaiue only. IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRY. 24. Major COLVILLE asked the Presi dent of the Board of Trade-what answer ihe has returned to the communication addresse d to lhim by the N ationai Federa tion of Iron and Ste. e l Manufac-turers, dire.cting his attention to the position of this industry and particularly to the BJct tha,t steel production is at pre,sent at approximately only 30 per cent. of pr.oduction -capacity; and what action he proposes to ta,ke in the interest o t h e workers in this industry? 35. Majm BEAUMONT THOMAS asked the President of tihe Board of Trade, with regard to tlhe resolution passed by the N ational Federation o.f Jr.on and Steel Manufa.cturers on 15th January, which he has re,ceived, whether he proposes to take any steps to deal with tJhe -situation? Mr. W. GRAHAM: The communica tion from tihe National Fe-deration of Iron and Steel Manufacturers has been ll!cknowledged As regards the action to be taken I can add nothing to the reply on this subje.ct which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for King's Norton on 3rd February. Major COLVILLE: In what parts of the country has the Gove.rnment policy resulted in the employment of more work people in this industry 1 Mr. GRAHAM: The industry, unfortunately, is suffering from the general d epression in trade, but we have taken a

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193 Oral Answers. HOUSE m' COMMONS Oral Answers. 194 [Mr. Graham.] very definite part in the reorganisation of iron and steel, .and I hope that these will mature at an early date. Mr. R. A. TAYLOR: How does the relative decline in iron and steel in Great Britain .compare with Germany and the United Mr. BROCKWAY: Is the right hon. Gentleman considering the suggestion of an import i})oard for the industry 1 Mr. SPEAKER: That raises anothe.r question altogether. MARKETING. 28. Mr. MANDER asked the President of the Board of T.rade if he will .consider the advisability of appointing a home marketing board for national development in this country 1 Mr. W. GRAHAM: The functions of such a hoard as the hon. Member appears to have in mind are already exercised in large measure by the Empire Marketing Board, the Department
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195 Oral Answ rrs. 10 FEBRUARY 19:31 Oral A.nswers. 196 Government entering into direct negO"tia tions with the Soviet GoveJ:I.nment in, order to secure some practical reciprocal trading a.dvantage to this count r y 1 Mr. GRAHAM: I have s a id, in reply to previ ous questio n s o n that point, tha t you cannot isolate countries in that way and treat the balanc e on the lines suggested by my .hon. Frie nd. As regard s this par ticula.r proposal, I fear for reasons which I cannot give in r eply to a supp l ementary question, t h a t it i s not really practical p olitics a t the pres ent time Lieut.-Commander KENWO RTHY: Is is not a fact that exports of herrings to Russia are paid for by the Russian timber which comes into this country 1 Mr. BOOTH BY: There is none. Lieut.-Commander KEN WORTHY: O h, yes. Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: In rt!he particular circumstances of trade in Russia, is it not possible to isol a t e trade with Russia with regard to imports and e x port s even thoug h i t i s not p o s sible to do oso wi t h regard to other count ries 1 Mr. GRAHAM: In repl y to t h e s u p plementa-ry q uestion of m y hon. and gal l ant Friend, last year 182,0 0 0 cwts of herrings were exported. As regards the second supplementary questio n, I f ear tha t I must adhere t o the p revi o u s r e p lies, that I do not think you can i so late international trade in tha t way. Lord EUSTACE PERCY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why it is possible to negotiate with a f o r e i g n capitalis t Governme n t to reduc e imports b u t impossible to n ego tiate with a S o cia list Gov ernment to raise a boycott 1 Mr. GRAHAM: In reply to t h e N ob l e Lord, I must say t hat I do n o t a dmi t his contenti o n for a singl e moment. Mr. MARLEY: Are we to take it that this i s a direct induceme n t o n t h e par t of the Opp os ition fo r t h e Government t o ente r i nto trading act io n 7 39. S i r WlLLIAM DAVISON asked the Presi d ent o f the Board of Trade w hether the Boa.rd is awa r e that t h e R u s si a n S oviet Government i s preparing to dump some 30,000 ton s of soap on the British market, w hich it i s propose d t o s e ll at the price of 1 k d. per t a b let; and what action the Government intend to take in the matter 1 Mr. GRAHAM: I have seen repo-rts in the Press tha.t soap is being imported from Russia and sold a.t low prices but I hav e no infor mati o n as to the q u anti ties it is proposed to import. As regards the last part of the question I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Kingston on-Thames (Sir G. Penny ) on the 3rd November. Sir W. DAVISON: Wha t i s tlhe object of having a B oa.r d of Tra. d e a t a ll i f it does not concern itself with matters of such vital importance hoth t o trade and to employment 1 Mr. BOOTH BY: On a point o f Order. I s h ould lik e to give notice i n view o f the unsatisfactory repli e s of the Presi dent of t h e Board of Trade on t his que s tion of Russian trade, that I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible momen t STA T I S TICS (EX P OR TS ) 4 1. Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND asked the P r esident of the Board o f Trade w h a t w a s t h e volume of the exports from Ger many, France, and Great Britain, re spective l y, in 1930, expressed in percent ages of the volume in 1929 7 Mr. W. GRAHAM: Eliminating the effect of price changes the vo lume of the d omestic ex port trad e o f Ge r m any, i n cluding d eliverie s on acco u n t of Repara tions, was 4.6 per cent. l e ss in 1 930 than in 192 9 In the case of the United King dom, there was a r eduction of 18.1 per cen t Similar information in respec t o f Fran ce i s not availa b l e Lord E. PERCY: A r e w e t o under stand t hat t h e reducti o n of 1 8 p e r cent. is entire l y due to world c auses 7 Mr. GRAHAM: I thi n k tha t it was overwh e l mingly due to world cause s Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Then can t h e r i ght hon. Gentleman tell u s w h y t h e reduction i n the case of German y w a s onl y 4 per cent. 1 Mr. GRAHAM: There are innu me rabl e other co n side r atio n s t o be taken into a ccount.

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197 Oral Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Oral Answers. 198 IMPORTED Goons (LABOUR CoNDITIONS). 42. Captain P. MACDONALD asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps are being taken to ascertain whether goods imported into this country are produced under conditions against which the British people cannot compete without lowering their standard of living 1 Mr. W. GRAHAM: With regard to the ascertainment of costs of production abroad I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave on the 20th January to a question by the hon. Member for Birkenhead, East (Mr. Graham White). I would remind him, however, that the competitive power of British manufacturers in any particular instance depends upon other factors as well as upon wage costs. Mr. SMITHERS: Can the right hon. Gentleman say if his attention has been drawn to some of the sworn statements a s to conditions of labour in Mr. MILLS: No name or address. FINANCE AND INDUSTRY. 49. Major TH 0 MAS asked the Chan cellor of the Exchequer whether he has yet r e ceived the report of the Government Committee on Finance and Industry; and whether, in view of' the l!IIl portance of the he will publish the findings of the committee .at the earliest possible date 1 The CHANCELLOR of the EX-CHEQUER (Mr. Phi'lip Snowden): I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply wh i ch I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Bethnal Green (Major Nathan) on the 20th January. Mr. HAMMERSLEY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the committee has now Dompleted the taking of evidenoe 1 Mr. SNOWDEN: In the reply to which I have referred, I said that they were considering their 1e:r;ort. CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS ACT. 23. Mr. DAY asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any recent fresh appointm3nts have been made to the advisory committee under the Cine matograph Films A.ct 1 Mr. W. GRAHAM: One-half of the members of this Committee recently retired in rotation. To fill the vacancies the Board of Trade have appointed Mr. C. M. Woolf, representing :!ilm makers, and Mr. A. B. King, representing film exhibitors; the remaining vacancies have been filled by the reappointment of the retiring members. Mr. DAY: Has the right hon. Gentleman experienced any difficulty in obtaining nominations for this Committee 1 Mr. GRAHAM: No, Sir. Mr. MANDER: Are any of the present members associated with American interests 1 Mr. GRAHAM: Not to my knowledge, but I should require notice if details were required. 32. Mr. DAY asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will state the number of applications made to his Department, for the six months ended to the last convenient date, for exemption certificates for non-compliance with tJhe quota conditions as laid down in the Cinematograph Films Act, 1927; and will he state the number wh ic h .are at present under consideration by his D epartment 1 Mr. GRAHAM: In addition to the sub mission in respect of the last quota year, concerning which I gave my hon. Friend information in reply to his question of 27th January, 12 submissions have been rece iv e d in respect of the present quota year from exhibitors w'ho have ceased during that period to carry -on business at the cinema for which they were licensed. They are ftll at present under consid eration. Mr. DAY: Does tJhat include any applications at present before the Department 1 Mr. GRAHAM: My information is that those are the applications, namely, the 12 since the last quota year ended. MERCANTILE MARINE (HYGIENE). 27. Dr. MORRIS-JONES asked the President >Of the Board of Trade whether the joint committee set up by the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Health

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199 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Oral Answers. 200 to inquire into the question of tJhe hygiene of the mercantile marine has yet presented its report? 26. Dr. HASTINGS asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has yet received the report of the Inter-depart mental Committee on the Health of the Mercantile Marine? Mr. W. G RA HAM: The joint .committee's advice on tlh.e various questions referred to it from time to time by the Board of Trade or the Ministry of Health is submitted to the Departments as its consideration of each subject is {;Om pleted and no general report is pub lished. The inquiry into seamen's mortality statistics is proceeding satis factorily, but will necessarily take some time to complete. The question of spaces has been engaging t 'he special attention of the Board of Trade, of the Joint Committee of the Board of Trade and Ministr:v of Health, and of the Slhipping Federation. Draft instruetions to surveyors have been placed before the Merchant Shipping Advisory Com mittee, and I hope soon to be able to ma.ke a statement on the subject. Dr. MORRIS-JONES: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, whereas this country leads the world in general sanitation, so far as sanitation on ships is concerned, we are behind Continental countries, and will he proceed further with the investigation? Mr. GRAHAM: I could not pronounce on that comparison ,jn reply to a supplementary question, but we are pursuing this matter with all possible speed. I await with great interest the further statement to which the reply refers. COMPANIES ACT. 33. Sir JOHN FERGUSON asked the President of the Board of Trade whether h e will in future require defaulting public companies to pay a charge of not less than to cove r the cost of the departmental work needed to r emind such defaulting companies that they have not obeyed Section 108 o f the Companies Act, 1929 7 34. Sir N. GRATTAN-DOYLE a sked the President of the Board of Trade whether a fine or fee is exacted from the 1,884 public companies which failed to make the returns required by Section 108 of the Companies Act in order that the Exchequer may be reimbursed the cost of staff maintenance and correspondence incurred to save those companies from bel.ng prosecuted for breaking the law 1 Mr. W. GRAHAM: It is assumed that the reference is to the copy of the annual return >vhich has to be filed with the Registrar under Section 110 of the Companies Act. Under the table in the Tenth Schedule to the Act a filing fee of 5s. has to be paid to the Registrar in all cases when this document is registered and under Section 379 the Board of Trade are prohibited from increasing the amount of this fee. I have no power to impose a special fee for unpunctuality or failme to file the document, the question of penalty being one for the Court in the event of a successful prosecution. SAFEGUARDING AND IMPORT DUTIES. GLOVE, CUTLER.Y AND GAS MANTLE INDUSTRIES. 36. Captain P. MACDONALD asked the President of the Board of Trade what has been the course of employment and unemployment in the glove, cutlery and gas mantle industries since 1st April, 1 930, up to the latest available date 1 Mr. W. GRAHAM: As the answer contains a number of figures I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Captain MACDONALD: Is it not a fact that unemployment has increased in these three industries 1 Mr. GRAHAM: That 1s deb atable apart from the general trade depression, because the trades, as these figures show, are really, in the aggregate, very small. Captain MACDONALD: If the figures are not very large, may we have them now? Following is the answer: The following table s hows the average numbers of workpeople employed in the glove-making, cutlery and gas m antle industries during the year 1930, so far as particulars have been received. Information is not available a s to the numbers unemployed in these industries.

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201 Oral Ans,A;ers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Orai Answers. 202 Glove-making. Gas Mantles. Quarter. Leather Gloves. J Fabric Glo,es. Cutlery. 1930. FirHt Quarter ... Second Quarter Third Quarter ... Average numbers of Work people emplo yed. 9,1:29 9,049 8,881 I 959 i 3,494 I 862 I 3,574 / 838 Not yet available 1,648 1,370 1,212 ----------'---------'--------'----------------'------------N otes.-The particulars in re-spect of gloves have been furnished by i:lhe Joint Industrial Council for the Glove-making Industry, and are stated to relate to firm s which, in 1924, emp l oyed in the leather g l ove industry about 88 per cent. of the cutters and in the fabric glove industry about 82 per cent. of the cutters. The cutlery figures have been supplied by the Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers' Asso ciation an-d are stated to be in respect of 41 firms, which are estimated to have employed in 1924 not more than 40 pe r cent. of the persons e mployed in the whole The figures for the gas mantle industry, supplied by the Trade Association con cerned, relate to the average ,weekly number of persons employed by firms which are claimed to represent about 95 per cent. of the output of the whole industry. SILK DRESSES. 53. Sir J. FERGUSON asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his attention has been directed to a recent conviction for a false declaration made in connection with the importatio n of silk dresses from France; and will he give consideration to the raising of t h e duty payable by private individuals to the same l eve l as that paid by dressmaking establishments, which would have the effect of giving increased employment in that trade 1 Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I am aware that a firm of dressmakers was recently fmed for under-declaring the value of imported dresses. As regards the second part of the question, I cannot anticipate my Budget statement. AFFORESTATION (EMPLOYMENT). 43. Lieut. Commander KENWO RTHY asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, as representing the Forestry Commissioners, how many men are at present employed on afforestation schemes; and what is the maximum number it is proposed to employ during the present year 1 The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. W. R. Smith) : The number of persons no w employed by the F orestry Commissioners -excluding 62 forest officers and 108 office staff-is 3,305; it is anticipated that the maximum number that will be employed this year will be approximately 4,000. Lieut. Commander KENWORTHY: Can my h{)n. Friend say whether, in view {)f the heavy unemployment, it i s intended to extend the programme in the near future Mr. SM IT'H: The programme is being extended 'as rapidly as possible, but any big e xtension is not possible until we are able to raise the plants, which will take a .bout three years. BRITISH ARMY. ENLISTMENTS UNDER AGE. 44. Mr. TINKER asked the Secretar y of State for War if he can state the number of recruits who have joined the Army during 1929 'and 1930 where application has been made for their release because they have joined under military age; and w ill he say how manYi hav e been granted -The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. T. Shaw): I regret I am not in a position to giv e the information for which my hon. Friend asks without disproportionate labour. But during the recruit ing years ended 30th September, 1929 and 1930, the number s of r ecruits discharged for havi n g made a misstatement a.s to age on attestation were 573 and 575 re spec tively. Mr. McSHANE: Is my right h{)n. Friend considering raising from 17 to 18 the age at which such boys should be ac cepted without the consent of their parents 1

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203 Oral Answers. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Oral Answers. 204 RECRUITING (INFANTRY). 60. Major GLYN asked the Secretary of State for War to what extent the recent special effort to obtain recruits for the infantry of the line has been suc cessful; what is the effective strength of the infantry; and what percentage of the recruits were rejected for medical reasons during the last three months 1 Mr. SHAW: 3,842 recruits for the infantry of the line were finally approved last month compared with 2,391 during the same month l-ast year. The regimental strength of the infantry of the line, in cluding those in India, on 1st January, 1931, was 96,749 As regards the last part of the question, information as to the percentage of recruits rejected on medical and physical ground's during J anuary iil not yet available, but the percentage for all arms of the Regular Army during the three months ended 31st December, 1930, was 53.6. Major GLYN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say wha.t steps he has taken to advertise in the Employment Exchanges the advantages of joining the .service.s 1 Mr. SHAW: I understand that the Employment Exchanges have recruiting materia l s supplied to them. RoYAL ARMY MEDICAL CoRPS. 61. Major GLYN asked the Secretary of State for War what is the present strength of the Royal Army Medical Corps officers, non-commissioned officers and other ranks ; and how far short are these figures of the authorised establishment 1 Mr. SHAW: I will, with the h
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205 Oral Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Oral Answers. 20G Mr. SHAW: My hon. Friend will find DEVELOPMENT SCHEMES (DOtAN). detailed information on this subject for 48. MtiMANDER asked the Chanthe years ended 30th September, 1926cellor of the Exchequer whether the Gov-1929 in Table 6 (pages 28 to 31) of the ernment is prepared to consider the raisGeneral Annual Report on the British ing of a development loan to be used for Army for 1929. Similar information for the execution of plans already prepal'ed the year ended 30th September, 1930 will and worked out 7 .appear in the General Annual Report for 1930, which I hope to present to the House in the course of a few weeks. Mr. AYLES: Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly send me a copy of the volume to which he refers 7 Mr. SHAW: I cannot guarantee to send copies of books when they can be found in the Library of the House. PENsiONS. 65. Mr. HOFFMAN asked the Secre tary of State for War if h e will consider the desirability of granting to men in receipt of pension under Article 1,163 of the Royal Warrant of 1914, the age increases in pension at 55 and 65 granted to men in receipt of service pension awarded after the issue of Army Order 325 of 1919 7 The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Sanders): Pensions under Article 1,163 of the Royal Warrant of 1914 are only given to soldiers who enlisted while the 1914 code was still in force and who prove to be ineligible for any award on the Great War or scale. Such men, who would otherwise be ineligible for any pension, are given the benefit of the HH4 code, but I regret that I am unable to grant them in addition the increases for age which are only permissible unde r the later codes. FISHING INDUSTRY (INQUIRY). 45. Mr. BOOTHBY asked the Prime Minister when the report of the committe e which is inquiring into the fishing industry will be completed ; and whether it will be published 7 The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald): I understand that the com mittee will complete the taking of oral e vidence at their meeting to be held on the 13th instant, and that they are now engaged in the preparation of their report. .Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I would refer the hon. Member to the statement I made on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House on Thursday last. Mr. MANDER: Am I to understand that the right hon. Gentleman would not be opposed to a loan for such a purpose as is outlined in the question 7 Mr. SNO.WDEN: I said all that 1 think needs to be said in that statement, and the hon Member must draw his own conclusion. GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS. NEW BUILDINGS, WHITEHALL. 50. Mr. DOUGLAS HACKING asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will instruct the Howard Frank Com mittee to include the proposals f o r new Government buildings in Whitehall in their investigations and to report upon their desirability 7 Mr. P. SNOWDEN: The Committee has concluded its investigations. Mr. HACKING: Will the right hon. Gentleman con sider setting up som e other form of inquiry befo-re a definit e decision is taken to spend this huge sum of money 7 Mr. SNOWDEN: It was decided some time ago that we should proceed with this work, and I believe my right hon. Friend the First Commissioner of Works has already introduced a Bill for this purpose. Captain MACDONALD: Is the necessity for these buildings so urgent that the Government cannot delay 7 Go vERNMENT BuiLDINGs, EDINBURGH. 75. Mr. ERNEST BROWN asked the First Commissioner of Works if he has any statement to make with regard to the p.roposed changes in public buildings in Edinburgh; and, if so, whether he can state the estimated cost of those changes 7

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207 Oral Answers. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Orat Answers. 208 Mr. PALING: Negotiations are at companies for any purpose; and, if so, present proceeding with the Edinburgh whether he can state the amount and for Town Council for the acquisition of a what purpose, and througlh what Depart site for the sheriff court house, but I ments of State 1 am not yet in a position to state the cost involved When I am in such a posi tion, I wilJ let the hon. Member know. Mr. E. BROWN: Will the hon. Member indicate to his right hon. Friend that there is a considerable body of opinion which hopes that the sheriff court will not be moved and that Lord Clyde will withdraw his opposition to the erection of the national library on this site 7 Mr. MATHERS: Will the hon. Member indicate to the First Commissioner of Works that there is a body of opinion which believes that the First Commis sioner is responsible to some extent for forcing the erection of the library on the George IV Bridge site, and will he take steps to remove that impression from the public mind 7 Mr. HARDIE: Since the people of Edinburgh cannot agree, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the removal of the libary to Glasgow 7 Mr. DUN CAN MILLAR: Will the First Commissioner of Works give an undertaking that no final decision will be arrived at until a fuller expression of opinion has been received from the citizens of Edinburgh 7 Mr. PALING: I will con vey that re quest to my right hon. Friend. TAXATION. 51. Mr. WHITE asked the Chancellor o. the Exchequer what, at the lates t date for which figur es are available, was the aggregate annual burden per head of national and local taxes in Great Britain, and in France, Germany, Italy, Holland, and tJhe United States of America, respec tively 7 Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I regret that the information is not available in the form in which the hon. M ember requires it. SHIPPING (SUBSIDY). 52. Mr. A YLES asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if any subsidies out of public funds are ,paid to any .shipping Mr. P. SNOWDEN: A sum of ,000 is provided in the Scottish Office Vote this year as a subsidy towards the cost of the Hebridean Steamer Services. This is the only payment out of public funds that can be described as a shipping sub sidy. Mr. BROCKWAY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether a condition is attached to these subsi dies by wlhich a living wage must be paid to the workers in the industry 1 Mr. SNOWDEN: I think the hon. Mem ber had better address that question to the Secretary of State for Scotland. SURPLUS GOVERNMENT PROPERTY (DISPOSAL). 54. Brigadier General CLIFTON BROWN asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what ha,s been the cost to the Treasury of tlhe Committee he set up ov e r a year ago to report on the sale of surplus Government rproperty; and when is it expected to Mr. P. SNOWDEN: The expenditure, inclusive of printing, etc., charges, of the Committee on Government Properties amounts to approximately The Com mittee reported on the 5th February. Brigadier-General BROWN: Can the rigfut hon. Gentleman say what is tlhe ca.use of the delay on the p.art of the committee in reporting 7 F-ourteen months have e la:psed. Mr. SNOWDEN: I do not know that there has been any undue delay. There w111s a great deal of work to be done, and it has necessitate & tJhe expenditure of a great deal of time. COMMODITY PRIOE
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209 Oral Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Oral Answers. 210 [Mr. Snowden.] for Bethnal Green, North-East (Major N athan) on the 27tih N ovem'ber last, to which I refexred the hon. Member on tlhe 2nd December. Mr. 80 OTH BY: Is it not a fad that S O long ago as March, 1922, an international conference recommended interna.tional action to regulate and e cono mise the use o, gold, and does the right hon. Gentleman to take steps to summon an international conference to consider t!his que siion, which i.s a matter 01f international i!mportance Mr. SNOWDEN: Yes, and I am wwa.re of tihe fa-ct that since 1922 a Tory Government has been in officc. for six years. Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND: Is the Chancellor of the E xche.quer aware that the withdrawal of gold during the past year has b een greate r than in any pre vious year 1 Mr. 80 OTH BY: Is it not a fact tlhat the fall in pr"ices has been uwice as grea.t during the pas t 18 m onths a s in any previous period 7 SILVER 56. Sir W. DAVISON asked the Chan cellor of the Ex.chequer whether he is aware of many complaints from persons making us e of sh illin g -in-th e-slot gas meters for lighting a.nd lhe.ating of the seri ous shortage of s hilli ngs w hereby they are in convenie nced i n obt a i ning a regular supply of gas; and whether a larger supply of thes.e coins can be issued to the banks or distribution to the pu'blic 1 Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I would refer the hon. Memb e r to the reply wlhiclh I gave on the 22nd January t o t.he hDn. and gallant Mern:ber for East Fulhaa:n (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan). Sir W. DAVISON: Doe s the right hon. Gentleman not think that it w ould be a profitabl e transaction for tlhe State at tlhe present time, in view o:f the very low price of silver, to mint an additi.onal number of shilling s when there is suc h a public demand for them 1 Mr. SNOWDEN: As I stated last week the Mint are taking this matter into consideration. MISCELLANEOUS REVENUE. 57. Captain P. MACDONALD asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any funds have been left over as a residue of war-time financial operations; and are suc h resources available for Budget purposes? Mr. P. SNOWDEN: I would refer the ihon. Member to the summarised statement on page 25 o0f Financ e Accounts for 1929-30 and to the detailed statements on pages 32 and 33, from which he will see that there are numerous War-time transactions not yet completely liquidated, the receipts from which are included in the Budget as Miscellaneous Revenue. Apart from Reparations and the Clearing Office, Enemy Debts, the amounts are relatively smalf. Captain MACDONALD: Can the right h o n. Gentlema n say wihat is the amount? Mr. SNOWDEN: It is reckoned that out of a sum of ,000 ,000, roughly, about ,000,000 comes fwm the R.t-para tions and Enemy Debts (Clearing Office) COMMISSIONS AND COMMITTEES. 58. Mr. ALBERY asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury how many departmental committees and Royal Commissions have been set up by the present Governm ent, and h ow many have submitte d a report? The FINANCIAlSECRET'ARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence): The appointment {) 72 commissions and committees lhas been announced sinc e the present Government took office Fourteen of t h ese are s t anding bodies. Of tlie remainder 18 have reported. Major COLVlLLE: Can the h on Member say h o w many of these reports h a v e been acted upon? Have they all shared the fate of tlh.e Simon Commission report 1 CONT'IN ENTAL ARMIES. 50. Major GLYN asked the Secretary of Stat e for War what i s the established peace strength of t h e armies of France, Italy, P oland, Yugoslavia, and Rumania; what reserves have eacih of these countries ; and h ow do these figur es com pare witlh. February, 1915.

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. 211 Oral Answers. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Oml Answer s 212 Mr. SHAW: I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the information published in the League of N Armaments Yea. r Book. As regards Hl15 r regret that figures are not avail able GLYN: Will the right hon. Gentleman send me a copy of the Mr. SHA.W: I think the hon. and gallant Member will find one in the Library. Major GL.YN: Cannot I h ave one s ent to me in t h e ordinary way I understoo d that when right hon. Members refer to hooks of reference of that kind, a copy is usually sent. Mr. SHAW: I do not think that I can guarantee to send to hon. Members cop i es of t h e books t o which I refe r them, especially w h e n a copy is i n the Library. Major HARVEY: Is the right hon. Gentleman a m ember of the League of .Nations Union Mr. SHA,W: Yes, Sir. POS' T OFFICE (WIRES AND O ABLE:S) 67. Mr. DAY asked the P ostmaster General the approximate mileage of over head telephone and telegraph wires that are at present in u s e by the Post Offi c e ; and can h e give t h e fig ures o f t h e sub stitution -of the same by underground cabl es t hat h a s taken p lace in t h e 12 months ended to the l ast convenient The ASSISTANT POSTMASTERGENERAL (Mr. Viant) : Appr o x im a t e l y 1 ,300,000 m i les of overhead wi res a r e at p r esen t in use; and 27, 500 miles of over h e a d wires we r e recovered during t h e year ended 30th tSeptember last. The total m ileage of underground wires i s 7 ,600,000. Mr. DAY: I n vi ew o f the une m p l o y m ent whic h exi s t s, could n o t t his wor k be expedited COT T O N I NDUSTRY (DISPUTE) 70. Mr. HAMMERSLE, Y asked the Minister {)f Labour w hether s h e wi ll make it a con dition of Government p a rticipa tion in negotiations connected with the dispute in the cotton trad e that a ll officia l bodies represen ting e m ployers and Nu f>5 employed authority affecting industry 1 shall be armed with full to negotiate on all questions the reorganis a tion of the The MINISTER of LA,BOUR (M:iss Bondfield): N o, Sir. The Government must keep a free hand to tl).ke any action which s e ems likely to promote a .settlement. Mr. HAMMEiRSL.EY: Can we be sure that the right hon. Lady appreciates the f act that there are many matters t o investiga t e other t h a n the question cif mo r e l ooms per weaver, and would i t not be futile to enter into the s e negotiations when the people with whom. the Govern ment intend to neg{)tiate are not in a position to deliver the goods 7 Mr. SANDHA.M: Is the right hon Lady aware of the fact tha t a. very large majo rity ballot vote in l!ancashire against negotiatio n makes it abs{)lutely impera. tive f o r the Government to move {)n the lines of a national control board 1 Mr. WISE: May I ask whether it is n o t the case that the workers' repr e sentatives in these negotiations have been pressing for reorganisati{)n of the indus try as a n alternative t o wage: reduction 7 I :RAQ (PIPE LTNE). 72. Mr. HORE-BELISHA asked the ,of St&t' e fm the O!olon:ies 'wheth e r h e can now mak e a. regar di n g t h e proposed lTa.q p ipe-line ? The UNDER-SECRt.TARY of STATE for the COLONIES ( Dr. Dtummond Shi e ls) : Negotiations are still in progre.ss. be.tween the Iraq P.etro l1eum. Gompany .and t h e G overnment of I
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213 Oral Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Ora.l Answers. 214 [Mr. Hore-Belisha.] a matter of interest to His Majesty's Government thwt an agreement should be :rached on certain defi.nit;e lines 1 Dr. SH I E.L$: What I meant was that so faJ. as I know an agreement has no1t been rea.ched, as negotiatons .are still in progress. Mr. l : s the hon. watching !the situation clo.s,e.ly rom the of view Qf Our interests 1 Dr. SH I E.LS : The Department with which I .am associated has always in mind the interests of the Empire. Mr. HARDIE: Have the Government any fm.ancial commitments in connection with :this pipe-lin!e Dr. SHIELS: No, Sir. EARL H .MG ,sTAT'UK 73 Lieut.-Colonel M O O RE asked the First Gommis sioner of Works if 'he will undertake that the 3!Illended model of the Earl Haig statue will not be adopted until Lady Haig, the Brivish Legion, and the Houses of Parliament have been con sulted and have signified their approv.al 7 Mr. PALl NG (Lord of thre Treasury): I would refer the 'hou. and .gallant Mem ber to the reply w hich was given in this -House on the 4th instant, to the hon. Member for Oihislehurst (Mr. Smi:t bJers). Lieut.-Colonel MOORE.: Will the hon. M ember represent to his 'I'ight hon. FYiend tha t the .confidenoe of the people of this country in regard to the judgment of 1the assessors ha.s been se verely shaken, while the p eop l e mentioned in the question .are the he.st qualifi1ed to gi v e an expert judg-ment 1 Mr. SMITH ERS: On a point of Order. In the
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215 Oral An.;wus. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Business oj the House. 216 the action of the Canadian Government Mr. THOMAS: In .a case 0 that kind in deporting from Canada a number of much would depend upon whether the British persons, wme of whom had House as a whole felt that such action children born in that Dominion; whether was in the public interest. he will give the Jull facts and :figures in relation to this matter; and whether any representations havEbeen made to the "Canadian Government 1 Mr. THOMAS: I p1esume that the hon. Member refers t.o the recent deporta tion from Canada of 107 British sub jects on the S.S .. Ascania." I find on inquiry that of these 00 h .ad become public charges, nine had been convicted, and one was a. tubercular subject. In the remaining case, no particulars have yet been received. Of the whole number, f1Ve ,were Canadian-born children, 64; were assisted migrants and 38 had proceeded to Canada without assistance. I understand that all these persons were liable to deportation under the Canadian Immigration Law, with the exception of the five children who were born in the Dominion. Thr.se )cihildren, like all Canadian-born children, were not liable to deportation, but, being of tender years, accompanied their parents back to this country. In reply to the last part of the hon. .Member's question I have this subject under consideration. Mr. HORE-BELtSHA: Seei11g that these British subjects, who were deported from Canada, havP. been guilty of no crime or irr.egularity wbatsoever, will representations be made to the Canadian Government that this is hardly an evi dence of Imperial Mr. T. WILLIAMS: Has my right hon. Friend any power to reciprocate, and, if so, will he consider the advisability of deporting, say, Lord Beaverbrook? Mr. MUGGERIDGE: May I ask whether one of the cases was not that of a woman who had been married in C 'auada, who was taken .away from her children and husband, was landed at Liverpool without a penny piece in her pocket, .and was subjected to all sorts of indignities on the way ? Mr. THOMAS: I have no knowledge o.f that ease. Much as one will deplore these facts, it would: 15e equally a mi:s for me to condemn wholesale without the facts being fully known. I must not be taken as accepting my hou. Friend's definition. Mr. HO RE-BELISHA: What anange ments are. the Government making for these people, ,geeing that they are not eligible for unemployment Mr. THO,MAS: The hon. Gentleman must. be ruware that we could not introduce a special Act of P-arliament of this. abnormal situation, but these facts clearly demonstrate the difficulty, that normally each year there are. thousands going to o-ur Dominions, but you see this frustrated by m.any returning. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Motion made, and Question put, That the Procee.dings on the Chin-a In demnity (Application) Bill be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."-[The Prime Minis ter.] The House divided : Aye: s, 266 ; Noes, 143. Division No. 136.] AYES. [3.47 p.m. Adamsnn, Rt. Hon. W. (File, West) Adamson, W. M. (Stall., Cannock) Addlson, Rt. Hon. Dr. Chrlstopher Aitchlson, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M. AI pass, J. H. Arnott, John Aske Sir Robert Attlee, Clement Richard Ayles, Waiter Baker, John Bllston) Baldwln, Ollver ( Dudley) Barnes, Alfred John Barr, Jamea Batey, Joscph Bellamy, Albert Bennett, Sir E N. (Cardiff, Central) Bennett, Willlam (Battersea, South) Benson, G. Io. 55 Bllndell, James Bondlield, Rt. Hon. Ma1garet Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Broad, Francis Alfred Brockway, A Fcnner Bromfleld, Willlam Bromley, J. Brooke, W. Broth era, M. Brown, Ern est ( L .elthl Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Buchanan, G. Burgess, F G. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W; R. Elland) cameron, A G. Cape, Thomas Carter. W. (St. Pancraa, S.W.) Charleton, H. c. chater, Daniel Cluse, W. s. Clynes, Rt. Hon John R. Cocks, Frederlck Seymour Compton, Josepl> Cove, Wllllam G. Crlpps, Sir Stafford Daggar, George Dallas, George Dalton, Hug h Davles, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Day Harry Dudgeon, Mator C R. Dukes, C Duncan, Charles Ede, James Chuter Edmunds, J. E. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) B2

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217 Bu$ine$s of the House. HOUSE OF COMMONS Business of the House. 216 Egsn, w. H. Elmley, VIscount Foot, lsaac Forgan, Dr. Robert Freeman, Peter Gardner, B. W (West Ham, Upton) Glbblns, Joseph Glbson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) Gill, T. H. Glllett, George M. G lassey, A. E. Gossling, A. G. Gould, F. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.) Granville, E. Gray, M ilner Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Grlffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Groves Thomas E Grundy, Thomas W Hall, F. (York, W R Normanton) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Hall, J. H. (Whltechapel) Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Biackburn) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Hardle, George D. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Hastings, Dr. Somerville Haycock, A W. Hayday, Arthur Haycs, John Henry Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Herrlotts, J Hirst, G H (York, W. R.,Wentworth) H lrst, W. (Bradford, South) Hoffman, P. C. Hopkln Daniel Hore-B ellsha, Leslie Horrabln J. F. Hudson, Jamee H. (HuddersfiiHd) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Hutchlson, MaJ.Gen. Sir R. lsaacs, G eorge Jenkins, Sir Wllllam John, Wllllam (Rhondda, West) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Jewel!. Rt. H o n. F. W. Jowltt, Sir W. A. (Preston) f
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219 Written Answers Cayzer, MaJ. Sir Herbt. R.(Prtsmth,S.) Cazalet, Captain VIctor A. Chapman, Sir S. Chrlstle, J. A. Clydesdale, Marquess of Cohen, Major J. Brunei Colman, N C D. Colvllle, MaJor D. J. Cranborne, V lscount Croft Brigadier-General Sir H. Crookshank,Cpt. H ( Llndsey,Gainsbro) Dalkelth, Earl ol Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godlrey Davles, Maj. Geo. F (Somerset,Yeovll) Davlson, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Eden, Captain Anthony Edmondson, MaJor A. J. Elliot Major Wafter E. Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s M.) Everard W. Lindsay Falle, Sir Bertram G Ferguson, Sir John Flson, F. G. Claverlng Ford, Sir P. J. Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Fremantle, Lleut -Colonel Francla E. Gault, Lleut.-Col. A. Hamilton Glbson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Glyn, MaJor R. G. c. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Guinness, Rt. Hon Waiter E. Gunston, Captain D W. Hacking, Rt. Hon Douglas H. Hall, Lleut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwlch) Hamilton, Sir George (llford) Hammersley, S S. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Harvey, MaJor S E (Devon, Totnes) Haslam, Henry C Hencage, Lleut.Colonel Arlhur P. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Hills, MaJor Rt. Hon. John Wailer Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Horne, Rt. Hon Sir Robert S. HowardBury, Colonel C. K Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Hurd, Percy A Knox, Sir Alfred Lamb, Sir J, Q. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Lelg hton, MaJor B. E. P. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester} Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey McConnell Sir Joseph Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (1. of W.) Makins, BrigadierGeneral E. Mander, Geoflrey le M. M argesson, Captain H. D. MarJorlbanks, Edward M itchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Mllcheii-Thomson, Rt. Hon Sir W. Moore, Lieut -Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Muirhead, A. J. Nlcholson, CoL Rt. Hn. W G .(Ptrsf'ld) Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert O'Nelll, Sir H. Ormsby-Gore, Rt Hon. Willlam Penny, Sir George Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Peto Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) -Purbrlck R Rawson, Sir Cooper Reid, Davld D. (County Down) Reynolds, Col. Sir James Sir Samuel 1 Ecclesall) Rodd, Rt. Hon Sir James Rennell Ruggles-Brlse, Lleut.-Colonel E. A. Written Answers. 220 Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Salmon, MaJor 1. Samuel, A. _M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sir N. Stewart Sassoon, Rt. Hon. S i r Philip A. G. D. Savery, S. s. Shepperson, Sir Ernes! Whittome Skeiton, A. N Smith, Louis W (Sheffield, Hallam) Smith, R. W (Aberd'n & Klnc'dine, C ) Smlth-Carington, Nevllle W Smithers, Waldron Somerset, Thomas Somerville, A A (Windsor) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Stanley, Lord (Fyide) Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Sueter Rear-Admiral M. F. Taylor, VIce-Admiral E. A. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Tlnne, J. A. Titchfieid, MaJor the Marquess ol Todd, Capt. A. J. Train, J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Ward, Lleut -Col. Sir A. Lambert Wardlaw-M line, J S Warrender, Sir Victor Wayland, Sir Wllllam A. Wells, Sydney R. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Wllson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) Wlndsor-Ciive, Lleut.-Colonel George Womersley, w, J. Wood, Rt. Hon Sir Klngsley Young, Rt Hon. Sir Hllton TELLERS FOR THE NOES Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Euan Wallace. METROPOLITAN POLICE (STAFF SUPERANNUATION AND POLICE FUND) BILL. ported eggs have 'been suppli e d tothe Refreshment Department of this House for many years. The only egg s used are English N ati.onal Mark. Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Co=ittee B. Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. Minutes o f the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into considera tion upon Thursday. WRITTEN ANSWERS. HOUSE OF COMMON' S (RE.FRESHMENT' DEPARTME..!'l'T). Duchess of ATHOLL asked the hon. Member for the Gorton Division, as 'Chairman of the Kitchen Committee, if Danish or other imported eggs have been 'supplied to the House of Commons since lst September, 1930 1 Mr. COMPTON: I can assure the Noble Lady that no Danish or other imRIVERS POLLUTION PREVENT'ION, SOOTLA.ND Mr. JAME. S WELSH asked the Secre tary of 'State for Scotland how often me etings of the Scottish Rivers Pollution Committee are held; what was the date of the last meeting. ; and if he is s a tisfied with the progress that is being made with the Mr. W. ADA,MSON: The meetings of the .Scottish Advisory Committee on Rivers Pollution Prevention are not held at stated intervals. Arrangements have recently bee. n made which, it is hoped, will enable the committee to ,proceed more rapidly with its work in the future. I may add that the first report of the committee, dealing with the River Tweed and its tributaries, will .shortly be issued, while the report on the River Esk (Midlothian) is in cour. se of preparation.

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221 Written Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Written Answers. 222 BRJT11SH t SETTLEiMENT', YPRES. for the months Mr. D. G. SOM ER VI LLE asked the we.re as follow: stated m the question d. Secretary of .State for Foreign Affairs if he proposes to take any action, and, if so, what, to convey the thanks of the British nation to the Be.Igia.n Govern ment for the passing of the legislation granting legal status to the British settlement at Y.pres Mr. DALTON: His Majesty's Ambas sador at Brussels was instructed on 30th December last to convey to the Belgian Minister of Justice Hi.s Majesty's Go ernment's warm appreciation of the Belgian Government's generous action in this matter. ROYAL NAVY. BATTLESHIPS AND BALTIC CRUISERS (MODERNISATION). Ueut.-Commander KE:NtWORTHY asked the First Lord of the Admiralty which of the battleships and battle cruisers on the Navy List, other than His Majesty's Ships "Rodney," "Nels on," and "Hood," have been modernised ; what have !been the m ain alterations eff ec ted ; and what was the total apprDximate cost 1 Mr. ALEXANDE, R: Since 1918, nine battleships Df the Queen Eliza,beth and Royal Sovereign c lasses, and the battle cruis ers R enown and R e pulse," have been modernised and the Barham is now in hand. The main alterations comprise addition of bulges, increase in anti-aircraft armament in some cases, improvements to bridges and tops, and improvements to ventilation and accomm odation. Additiona l armour protection has bee n fitted in "Renown and Repulse." The estimated total co s t of these items of modernisation, in cludin g "Barham," is approximately ,870,000. DOCKYARDS (RATES OF PAY). Mr. MARK!HAM asked the First Lord o f the Admiralty wha,t were the a,ve.rage we e kly rates of pay of men employe d i n the Roya l pockyards during May, 1929, January, 1 930, and Janua ry, 1931 Mr. ALEXANDER: The average weekly pay of men employed in the ship lbmldmg and ship repairing departments (Vote 8) of the R oya l Dockyards at home May, 1929 January, 1930 January, 1931 s. 3 3 3 0 2 19 2 6 5 This decrease is .due mainly to the curtailment of overtime and piecework as agreed between the trade unions and tlie Admiralty. 0HATHAM DocKYARD. Mr. MAR KHA.M asked the First Lord .of the Admiralty what were the numtbers of workmen discharged on reduction from tlie Vote 8 departments of Ohatham Dockyard duffing the years 1924 to 1930, inclusive 1 Mr. ALEXANDER: The required numbers are: 1924 2 1925 11 1926 492 192 7 1,219 1928 422 1929 166 1930 66 Mr. MAHKIHAiM a 'Sike>d the First Lord of the Admira1ty what is the present valuwtion orf Oha'tha m Do.Cikyal'd; and what wmount was contributed to lo oal rates during the ye.ar 7 Mr. PETHICKLAWR : EN1CE: The pre:sent valuation of this dockyard its ,021. The co rreSiponding contr]bution to 1ocal rates for the half ye1ar ended 31,st ll>f:arch, 1930, wa;s ,6-56, but tJhe con trilbution for the full year ended 31st!:. Mar,ch, 1930, Wlas ,548 FIGHTING SERVICES. FLouR SuPPLY. Viscountess AST01R asked' (I) the Sercretary of 1S.t'ate lfor War ma.te, Iy how muclh flour w as used for tfue forces situated in Britain during the six months aJfter ha.rve,S:t :in 1929 and 1928 respec'tlve l y ; (2) the UnderJSe,cretary of Sibate for Air a!pproximately how much flour w;a:s: used for the for'c e s situated i n Britain during the ,six mon.ths aft e r h arve.SJt in 1929 a nd 19'28, respective-ly 7

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223 Wri.tten Answers. 10 1931 Written Answers. 224 Mr. SHAW: The quantitie, s of flour used by tJhe Army and tJhe Roy.al Air Force at home during the periodr s olf six months commencing October, 1929, and Olcto!ber, 1928, are estimaterd at about 5,300 tons and 5,500 tons, re speciive.ly. MEAT SuPPLY. Viscountess A .STO R asked (1) the Se1cretary of State. for War how much home-fed beei was .supplied to the forces situated in Britain during the. months of October to March for the pa.st two years; (2) tJhe Under4Se1cretary of State for Air !how much ho.mer'fed beeif was sup plied to the f<>rees situated in Britain during the months of Octolbe r to March for the past tiwo years 1 Mr. SHA.W: With the of a ve.ry small quantity ot fresh meat for hosrpitals, imported mea t only, prwctically all of Dominio n origin, w.as swp plied to the Amny and tJhe Royal Air Force in Great Britain during the periods in quesrtion. TERRITORIAL ARTILLERY (DRESS). Colonel CLIFTON BROWN asked the Secretary of State for War if it is proCount.ries of consignment. Chi ua (exclusive of Hong Kong, Macao and territories) Hong Kong British India '". Year. 1923-1925 (average). 1927 1928 1929 1930 1923-1925 (averag e ) 1927 1928 1929 1930 (average). 1927 1928 1929 1930 posed to substitute waist belts for bandoliers in the dress of Territorial artillery ; and, if i'io, when the change will be effected 1 Mr. SHAW: Yes, Sir; it .is proposed to make the change during the present year. TRADE AND COMMERCE. 0HINA AND INDIA. Earl CASTLE STEWART asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give any information which will show the value and volume of our trade with China and with India in each of the years 1927, 1928, 1929 and 1930, as com pared with the average value and volume of a representative number of preceding years 1 Mr. W. GRAHA .M: I am unable to state the volume of our trade with Ohina and India. The following table shows the total declared value of merchandise imported into and exported from the United Kingdom and registered as consigned from and to Ohina, Hong Kong and British India, respectively, during the undermentioned periods. Total Imports. '000 13,175 12,123 11,974 12,157 9,914 ---800 477 481 41:!9 423 75,307 65,840 64,473 62,845 51,058 Exports. Produce and manufacture of Imported the United Merchandise. Kingdom. '000 '000 17,871 179 9,690 120 15,724 135 14,029 117 8,572 86 6,770 Ill 4,910 91 5,472 98 6,162 114 4,356 95 87,624 1,132 85,045 1,292 83,900 1,168 78,227 1,145 52,944 1,314 --Not'Es.-(a) The above figures ioclude, in respect of the first three months of 192 3, the trade of tha t part of Ireland which now constitutes the Irish F'ree State, and the figures for Chinrt include; from the 1st October, 1930, the trade of the United Kingdom with Wei-hai-Wei. TheB e considerations do not materially affect the comparability of the figures. (b) The figures for 1.930 are provisional.

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225 Written Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Written Answers. 220 Earl CASTLE STEWART asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can give any figures whic h would show the value and volume of the total foreign trade of China and of India for the years 1927, Hl28, 1929 and 1930, as compared with the average value and volume for a representative number of preceding years? Mr. GRAHAM: I am unable to state the volume of the foreign trade of China and India, but the following table shows: THE VALUE OF MERCHANDISE imported into and exported from British India (by Sea) and China for the undermentioned periods. Britioh India (by Sea). China. Years. Exports. Exports. Imports. Imports. ---------.. ...CI __ -:-__ .Average 1923 t o 1926 1927 .. 1928 .. 1929 .. 1930 i '000. I '000. '000. '000. '000. I i I 175,474 135.581 3,600 ... I 175,333 257,R37 8,670 I 193,265 238,864 7,198 145,680 129,420 2,973 ... I ... 193,845 2 47,980 6,491 176,774 144,831 2,050 ... 193,342 5,630 169,842 134,631 2,060 Jan. to Nov. I 135,956 177,079 3,763 N oc available. ... I I NOTES.-(!) British India. ConversiOns of rupees to sterling have been made at the avemge annual rates of exchang e for the years 1923 to 192ti and at the official par of exchange, 18 pence to the rupee, for subsequent years. (2) Chin :. Conver8ions to sterling have been made a t the averag e annual rate of exchange as published hy the Chinese Nlaritime Customs. GERMAN SALT. Mr. ORMSBY-GORE asked the Presid ent of the Board of Trade what was the tota l tonnage and d eclared value of crush e d rock salt imported from G e r many into the United Kingdom in the year 1930; whether lhe is aware that this commodity contains insoluble matter as an impurirty, but is being sold as pure salt in competition with British brine salt ; and what are the current prices of this German salt and British brine salt, respectively? Mr. W. GRAHAM: I regret that I have no information respecting the quantity or value of .crushed rock salt imported into the United Kingdom from Germany during 1930, as this commodity i s not separately recorded in the trade returns of tlhis country or of Germany. With regard to the second part of the question, I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the reply given by the Minister of Health t o the hon. and gallant Membe r for Tiverton (Lieut. Oolonel Acland-Troyte) on 5th February. I have no information as to the curient prices of this German salt or British. brine salt. BANKRUPTCIES. Duchess of ATHOLL asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of bankruptcies of estates formerly of the value of ,000 and upwards during the five years prior to 1914, and the last simi lar period for which figures are available 1 Mr. W. GRAHAM: The numbe r of bankruptcies finally wound up in which the value of the estates amounted to ,000 and upwards was 650 during tlb.e years 1909 to 1913 inclusive, and 873 during the years 1925 to 1929 iuclusive. COKE (I:r.IPOR .T, SWITZERLAND), Viscountess ASTO R asked the President of the Hoard of Trade the amount of the of coke from this country to Switzerland for each of the years 1927, 1928, and 1929 7 Mr. W. R. SMITH: No exports of coke from the United Kingdom were regisc

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227 WTitten AnsweTs. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 l'fiTitten Answen. 228 tered as consigned to Switzerland during the years 1927, 1928 and 1929. In the trade returns of Switzerland which recmd the goods imported accDrding to the country of Drigin (not consignment), !howe v e r the quantity of c oke imported frDm t h e Unite d Kingdo m in the s e years was recorded as 2 96 tons, 3,228 tDns and 1,614 tons, res pectively. FOREIGN OATS. Viscountess ASTO R asked the Presi.d ent o f the Board of Trade how much forei g n bounty-fe d or d umped oats was l ande d and sold in B ritain in 1929 and 1930, respectiv-ely 1 Mr. W. R. SMITH: I regret that I am unable to supply the information desir ed, as no distinc t ion based upon the price of the goo d s or any factors that may affect the price is made i n r ecording im ports. IMPERIAL ECONOMIC COMMI'J"l'E.E. Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE aske d the P.rime Minister whethe r he will consider the desirability o f using the Imper i a l E conomic Co mmitt ee to make inquir i es into the produ ction and of certain ch i e f world products in respect o f which parts of the British Empire are themselves producers, with the object of rendering assistance t.o tho se who are findin g it d ifficult a t present to carry on 1 The PRIME MINISTER: I w .ill b e a r the hon. Membe r s suggest ion in mind, hut as h e will b e aware, no questions can he referred to the Imperial E co n omic Cbmmittee e xcept by agreement a mong the Go vernments o f t h e British Common wealth N A TIONAL 'MUSE U M S A N D GALLER;IES Mr. MAR KHAM asked the Priiiile Minister if he will take steps t o ensu r e t hat a m e m be r of t.he Cabine t s hall be responsib l e fo r national m u seums other than t h ose unde r t he -Boa r d o f Education 1 The PRIME MINISTER: The Royal Commiss ion on N ational Muse ums a n d G alleries consi d e red a suggesti o n o n t hes e l i n es, but did not r ec o mmend its adoption. I see n o reas o n to differ from their conclusion. POST OFFICE. P OSTMARK ADVERTISE MENTS Mr. REMER asked the Postmaste r G e n e r a l {)f h e prepared to have a cancellation stamp f o r all letters posted in Maccl e sfi e ld bearing the words Buy Maccl e sfi eld .Silk 1 Mr. VIANT: As my h o n. Friend has already explained in answe r to similar requests for postmark advertisements -of other British industries, the circum s tances appertaining t o the advertis eme n t o the cotton sectio n o f t h e Briti s h In dustries Fair do not apply in the case i n point, and I, therefore, regret that my hon. Friend is unable to grant the hon. Member' s request. POSTAL FACILITIES MARPLE. Mr. R E.M ER asked the P o stmaster G eneral if h i s aMention has been called to the postal arran gement s a t Marple near StDekport ; and if h e will take steps to see that the postal 'arr angements are of such a character a s to meet the needs of this growing urban district 1 Mr. VI ANT: I a m having inquiry made and w ill wri t e to the hon. M embe r. EAST AFRICA (GRANTS AND LOANS). Mr. MAN DE R a sked the Financial Secretar y t o the Treasury the tot a l amount paid on b ehalf of t he Eas t Africa Protectorate a n d Kenya Colony by the British taxpayer s h owi n g the respectiv e sums o n ac c ount of the U ganda R ailway, non-re c over able grants in aid, and re mission o f interest o n loans; the a m ount paid to Kenya on accou n t of t h e war i n East Africa; and t h e a m o u n t of British credit at presen t invo l v e d i n g u a rant ee d loans t o the Co lony 7 Mr. PETHICKLAWRENCE: Non recov erable grants in aid o f administra tiv e and railway defi cits, to the t o t a l amount of 2,84 3,383, we r e i s sue d t o the Eacst Africa P r otec t o r a t e in t h e peri o d from 1 895 t o 1 9 12. There h ave be e n no such grants since. U n d e r the auth o rity of the Ugand a Railw a y Ac t s 1 896 t o 1902 sums a m ountin g t o ,502 ,592 were issued to the Protectorate from the C on soli-dated Fund in the period from 1 896 t o 1905 for the construction of the Uganda Railway: and the s u ms so issued

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22!) Written Amwers. HOUSE OF COMMONS Written Answers. 230 ,280,467. Apart from this, and subject; to the foregoing rema.rks on Uganda Railway advances and War expenditure debt, there has been no remission o f in terest on loans. And none 'or the Co1ony's loans have been guarantee
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WTitten Answers. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 ll'Titten A_nswers 232 HoRSEs (AcciDENTS, MINEs) Mr. FRE.EMAN asked the Secretary for Mines the rates per 1,000 at which horses and' ponies employed underground in mines were killed and injured during each of the last 10 years; the rate of killed and injured ponies per 1,000 in each of the divisions into which the coal fields are divided in official reports for each of the last 10 years; the main causes g1vmg rise to these accidents; and whether he is satisfied that the present methods of reporting these fatal and nonfatal injuries to the animals to the divisional inspectors are entirely satisfac tory? Mr. SH I N ;W'EiLL: The statistics ar1e as follow: InspectionDivision. 1923.11924.: I (i) Number of Horses and Ponies killed or destroyed in consequence of of injury or accident per 1,000 Horses and Ponies employed. ... I I : Yorkshire 1 63 1 76 81 75 ';6 46 65 70 52 51 North Midlai:' d i 37 45 50 48 46 1 25 36 42 39 35 North Western i 27 26 30 27 30 ; !41 39 21 23 1 2 and Forest of /} 27 34 { 48 46 J 40 J 27 32 3 7 42 39 Swansea ... 41 42 I 41 / I 23 j 31 ; 29 28 34 Midland and Southern... 45 42 __::__ 38 35 43 47 47 43 I 26 I 37 I 39 36 3G Great Britain (ii) Number of Horses and Ponles IDJured by acc1dents per 1,000 Horses and Ponies e mpl oy ed. Scotland ... Northern Yorkshire North Midland North Western Cardiff and Forest of Dean. Swansea ... M id land and Southern ... Great Britain 28 75 143 147 84 } 84 86 --92 I 30 104 167 189 85 ll8 64 --!20 41 34 30 103 107 86 166 176 188 177 1<'-' 160 89 87 91 r 36 126 175 1 119 98 120 80 82 62 -----123 125 125 24 43 36 25 36 87 76 84 101 76 150 15:,! 171 187 9fi 128 149 170 167 37 86 57 49 41 52 97 10!:! 112 149 49 84 81 6K 82 50 73 81 109 73 ----55 10l 102 124 "' Mines idle for consid e iabl e period owing t o disputes. t The figur e s for the year R 1929 and 1930 relate to the 12 months e nded 30th June. The caus e s of the accidents are very vari e d, but many of them are c aused by the h orse o r tub getting out of control, or by the horse stumbling o r stepping aside. The r eporting of injurie s to these animals is r egulate d by the Coal Min e s Act, 1911, and I see no sufficient reas o n to ask Parliament to make any alteration. The welfare of the animals is carefully watch ed by competent inspectors. SMALLPOX. Mr. FREEMAN asked the Minister of Health whether any other disease was present in addition to smallpox in the ei ght f atal cases in unvaccinated persons that occurred in London during the year 1929; and, if so, what dise ase was present and the age o f the patient in whic h it was present 7 Mr. GREENWOOD: Only six deaths from smallpox are recorded as having occurr e d amongst London patients in 1 929 All these patients were unvaccinated. In two of them no cause of death other than smallpox was m e n tioned in the death certificate In the other four the age of the patien t and the certified c auses of death were R.s shown in the following tabl e :

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23;j Written Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS W1itten Answers. 234 No. Age. 1 37 years 2 3 days :l 13 years I 4 1 mont.h Certified cause of death. la.' Hypostatic Pneumonia. b. Chronic Peritonitis. II. Smallpox. la. b. Unvaccinated: born with rash. Mother suffering from Smallpox. II. Prematurity. la. Septicaemia. b. Confluent Smallpox. 11. Vesical fistula. la. Smallpox. 11. Prematurity. TRANSPORT. ROAD IMPROVEMFu."T SCHEMES, SOMERSET. Mr. GOULD a sked the Minister o f Transport the number of road improvement schemes approved by his Department since June, 1929, for the county of Somerset, with the names of .the authorities and the cost of each Mr. HERBERT MORRJSON: Since 1st June, 1929, my Department has approved, in the county of Somerset, 118 road improvement schemes estimated to cost ,983 and in addition, five schemes estimated to cost ,416 have been approved in principle. In v iew of the large number of schemes in question, I hope my hon. Friend will not press fo r information as to the name of the authority and the cost in each individual case. BATH RoAD ScHEME. Mr. W. G. HALL asked the Minister of Transport how many men are em ployed and for how long on the work in the section of the Bath Road from Great West Road to Colnbrook; and what is the total estimated cost and the estimated expenditure, respectively, on the acquisition of land and for other com pensation to owners or occupiers for severance, disturbance, easements and the like, on wages, and on Mr. HERBERT MORRISON: Fortytwo men are at present engaged upon the construction of that portion of the Bath Road which lies between the Great West Road and Colnbrook, and it is estimated that the work involved will provide 4,116 menmonths of direct employment. The estimated cost of this portion of the scheme is ,500 of which about ,000 represents the probable cost of acquisi tion of land and compensation. The constructional works a,re estimated to cost ,500, but I regret that I have not sufficient data to enable me to divide the figures between wages and mater.ial. AGRICULTURE. I SMALiHOLDINGS. Viscountess ASTO Fl asked the Minister of Agriculture for each county the net return on the capital invested whether in acquiring land or equipping it Ol' otherwise for the purpose of smallhold ings under the Acts of 1906, 1919, and 1926, respectively; and for each county the loans still outstanding and their annual loan charges towards under each Act Dr. A.DDISON: I regret that it is not possible to give the detailed information asked for as regards holdings provided under the Smallholdings and Allotments Act, 1908, and the Land Settlement (Facilities ) Act, 1919. For England and Wales as a whole the financial result of councils' operations under those Acts was approximately as follows : (i) The capital cost of the holdings pro vided under the Act of 1 908 was a.bout ,500,000. The greater part of this sum was borrowed from the Local Loans Fund at 3! per cent. and, broadly speaking, the net income from the holdings up to the end of 1918 was sufficient to pay the interest and redemption charges. (ii) The capital cost of the holdings provided under the Act of 1919 was approximately ,250,000 and for the most part was met by loans from the Land .Settlement Fund hearing interest at rates varying hom 6! per cent. to 4! per cent. the average rate being per cent. (iii) The total capital expenditure unde r the Acts of 1908 and 1919, including the capitalised valu e of certain annuities, was about ,750,000. (iv) The estimated net annual income as agreed upon between the Ministry and the county councils for the purposes of the Land Settlement (Facilities) Amend ment A ct, 1925, was approximately ,000 per annum. This sum represents rather less than 2 per cent. of the capital cost after making allowance from the

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235 Written Answen. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Answers. 236 existing gross rental value for future contingencies over a long period, as well as for the usual of administrative repairs, renewals, etc. (v) As regards smallholdings provided under the Smallholdings and Allotments Act, 1926, detailed infoDmation is only available in the case of schemes aided by annual contributions by the Ministry. The schemes approved to date involve a capital outlay of ,479, and the net annual return on this outlay is 3.17 per cent. The addition of a small number of self supporting schemes, concerning which no details are available, would, of course, increase the net return. (vi) The amount of the loans outstanding on the holdings referred to in paragraphs (i) and (ii) at the present time is approximately ,000,000, and the interest and redemption payments for the current year amount to ,200,000. The capital expenditure on holdings provided under the Act of 1926 may for all practical purposes be regarded as the amount. outstanding at the present time, though m some cases loans have not yet been actually raised. The estimated annual loan charges amount to ,422. BEET SuGAR SuBSIDY. Viscountess A.STO R asked the Chan cellor o. the Exchequer the amount paid out by the Exchequer in subsidies to beet each year since this subsidy was 1mtlated; and how much of, it went to the growers of beet .and how much to the factories 7 Dr. ADDISON: I have been asked to reply. The total payments of subsidy under. the Brit1sJh Sugar (Subsidy) Act, 1929, m respect of sugar and molasses produced at the bee t sugar factories in Great Britain in each financial year wer e as follow: Financial Year. 1924 1925 1926 1927 1928 1929 1930 (estimated) Total s. d. 492,040 4 7 1,066,089 19 0 3,225,858 15 1 4,309,259 15 0 2,854,239 4 6 4,229 729 16 11 6,000,000 0 0 ,177,217 15 1 Very approximately, it may be said that one-half of the subsidy payme:9ts have been secured by best growers in the price's negotiated on their behalf by the National Farmers' Union with the Beet SugJar Factories Co=ittee. Lt.ND DRAINAGE. Lieut.Commander KENWORTHY asked the Minister of Agriculture how many men, approximately, are now em ployed on land drainage schemes ; .and how many of these men are at work as a result of tlhe operation of the Land Drainage Act 7 Dr. ADD I SON: The number of men employed on State-assisted land drainage schemes :Ds .approximately 1,543. None of these are at work as a result of the operation of the Land Drainage Act, 1930. As my hon. Friend is a.ware the ma.in object of that Act was to secure the constitution of catchment boards for the ma.in rivers and thus to enable more comprehensive schemes of drainage to be carried out through these catchment board,s. 'Dhese boards are being set up as rapidly a.s the statutory requirements of the Act permit, but there has not yet been time for the consideration by them of drainage schemes. .MIGRANT' LAND SETTL:EME.NT, VICTORIA. Major EDMONDSON asked the Secre tary of ,state for Dominion Affa.irs when the report is expected of the commission appointed to inquire into the Case of the British settlers in Victoria under the 1925 Mr. THOMAS: I understand that the Royal Commission on Migrant Land Settlement in Victoria bega. n its proceedings yesterday, the 9th instant. At this stage, I am unable to say when the report will be presented. NEIW ZEALAND (EARTHQUAKE). Mr. D. G. SOMERVILLE asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he can now make any sta t ement as to the l oss of lif e the injury to persons and the material damage sustained as a result of the earthquake in New Zealand ? Mr. TH Q .MAS : I fear that i t is still too early for a complete statement of the los-s of life and damage caused by the earthquake to be available. The telegr2"phic reports so far .sent to me by the

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237 Written Answers. HOUSE OF COMMONS W1itten Answers. 238 Governor-Genera,! have been issued to the Press here On their receipt ; .and the High Commissioner for New Zealand is taking steps to arra,nge for the immedia,te publication of the ca,sualty lists as they reach him from his Government. I regret to say that the number of dea,ths definitely reported up to the present time is 212, though the list is not complete, and, in addition, the number of injured is approximately 950. UNEMPLOYMENT. BENEFIT. Mr. W. M. AOA.MSOiN a-sked the Minister of Labour (1) the number of persons between the ages of 18 and 40 years who are in receipt of unemployment bene fit at the present time, and how many are women ; (2) the number of persons between the ages of 55 and 65 years who are in reeipt of unemployment benefit at the present time, and how many are women 7 Miss BONDFIELD: The latest date for which figures are availa,ble is 24th Niovember, 1930. It is estimated that at that date the figures in question fo r Great Britain were approximately as follow: In r e c eipt of b e nefit. -Mal es. I F e males. I Tot of tlie National Unemployment L eague). It is possible that the lower of these estimates relates to industrial workers only. Statistics of unemployment are nut available in thGl form of percentages for France and Italy, where 45,098 persons at 24th January, 1931, and 642,169 persons at the end of D e cember, 1930, were regis. tered as unemploye d respecti vely In addition 21,788 persons were recorded in Italy as partially unemployed at the same date. The representative of the French Government on the Governing Body of the International Labour Offic e is r e porte d .by the Pre ss to have made recently a statement on unemployment, according to whi ch the volume of unemployment in Franc e is much greater tha n appears from the published figure s given abov e, the results of a spe cial inquiry m ade in January showing that 350,000 p ersons in Franc e were wholly unem-

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Written Answers. 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Written A.ns wers. 240 played, and 1,000,000 partially unem ployed. The latest available percentage-s of unemployment in the other -countries named are given in the following table, but it .should be noted that owing to differences in the, methods of compilation, these -percentages a.re not necessarily comparable with one another. --Percentage unemployed. Country. Date. .Authority for the figures. Wholly. I On short lllnemployed. time. Great Britain .... 22.12.30; I 14 5* I Gertnany ... .... 27.12.30 I 31 16' 9 German Federation of Trade Unions.t United Btates ... Dec., 1930. I 23 8 0 to 31.(} .American Federatiom of LabollN'. f Belgium ... ... 29.11.30 6 12 Mioistry of Industry, Labour and Welfare. ---------___ __ Figure!l reprli'sent percentage rate of IIJ;J.emplo.ymeJjlt among p!lrsons iiJ.a.utP.d u,ndel' iJ}JJ. e Unemployment Insurance Acts. The figure in. the time column. includes not. onky pel'sons on short time bnt other persons temporarily stopped from the service of employers t Based on returns in respect of 4,445,443 m e nhers of trade unions. t Based on returns made by trade unions in 24 cities. Tt e F13deration's "weighted figure, representing unemployment in the country as a whole, uuion and non union, shows 16. per cenil. out of work in December, 1930." The percentage of trade unionists on sh,ort time va.ries ill the 24 cities, no general average being given. Based ou returlls relating to 626,220 me.mbers of unemployment insurance funds.

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241 Agricultu ral Land HOUSE OF COMMONI'::l (Utilisation) Bill. ORDERS OF THE DAY. AGRICULTURAL LAND (UTILISATION) BILL. As amended (in the Standing Commit tee), further considered. CLAUSE 19.-(Interpntation and const1"uction.) The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Dr. Addisori) : I beg to mo ve, in page 18 line 14, to leave out from the word un incorporated to the word and in line 17. It will be seen that in the Clause as it stands the word Society is defined as including any body of persons whether incorporated or unincorporated, but the Clause adds that it shall not include: any body .of persons whose funds or any ,portion of whose funds are used for political purposes." These words were inserted in Committee and when the Amendment to include them was moved in Comm!ttee I think we were getting on rather well, and I was, perhaps, in an even better temper than usual. At all events, I accepted the Amendment, but I find, upon going into the matter, that my good nature in doing so would involve me in accounting difficulties in connection with this matter, and therefore I must now ask the HousP to support me in movin g to omit thes e words. The reason is this : The grant that we make to the allotment society is not ma.de to the society as such at all ; it is made in respect of the requirements for seeds, fertilisers and so on, and I may say that Sir William Waterlow's Committee, which is handling this matter for us, is devoting a great deal of time and attention to the work, and I shall have, I think, the approval of everybody when I say a word of appreciation on the Third Reading. The whole point in regard to this Amendment is that these grants are really not m ade to the societies ; the y are made in r espect of the members who recP-i ve so many thousand potatoes, so many packets of seeds, this, that and the other. The whole l o t are adde d up, and the Waterlow Committee supplies the goods That is what it come s to. If these words were in the BilL and it were a statutory obligation upon us to inquire of every particular allotment society as to whether it had or had not given a subscription to any other body which might or might not have given a. subscription for political purposes, we should find ourselves involved in rather a large inquiry as to what the society did with their otner money. All we are concerned with in this Clause is to see that the money we supply is used' solely for these seeds, fertilisers, etc. No money can be paid .except in respect to these requirements, but I suggest that it is putting upon the Minister an obligation very difficult to discharge if he has to inquire what every allotment society does with any of its other funds. It would make the Clause largely un workable, or, at all events, involve cumbersome machinery not necessary for our purpose, and which is outside the object of the Bill, namely, the prope r supply of seeds a.nd fertilisers where required. I see the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) is on the look out, but I can assure him that none of these funds can find their way to any purpose except that provid ed for under the Clause, and I hope, in these circum stances, the House will support me :in this Amendment. Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS: Of all tlhe ba,cksliders I have come across, the Min ister is absolut ely the wo-rst N o t only is he a backslider, but he is self -oontra. dic tory, ibecause in Committee upstairs, when he a,.cc0pted the Amendment, he said: I am advised that the Clause :would be quite workable with these words included."[OFFICIAL REPORT (Standing Committee B), 16th December, 19 3 0 ; col. 587.] S.o that, quite obviously, his c laim tha.t this is not easy of administration goes by the board. It is quite easy. Dr. A.DDISON: I was on l y abl e to ge t advice in Committee for a minute or two, and on f'i1rtilier consideration it was found that unforeseen difficul t ies of admin istration would .be likely to aris e I a m sorry that it is necessary for m e to go ba,ck on what I prov is io nally accepted in C(Jmmittee. Mr. WILLIA'MS: It i s no good ba,ck sliding, and then a:poiogising. 1 would, how ever, take "it from anot her point of view. H e said that these seeds and f erti lisers are really given to the allotment

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243 Agricultur al Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 244 holder himself. That is perfectly true, but it is the administration iby the s o cieties about which we .are quarrelling. That is why we want them to be of a nonp olitica l ch3iracter. Whe n we were in Committee upsta irs, I moved the origina l Amendment. The M inister h a d considerable time in which to diS{)uss it and consider i t The Department laid it down on tha.t occasion that these words were necessary in tihe Bill, and the Min ister accepted the Amendmen t with a v ery slight alteration. Then one or two Members in diff e r e n t pa.rts of t h e Co m mittee began to find difficulties. The Minister still said he had to aoc e p t the words, and m e r e l y added that h e would inquire into the matter .betwen the n and the Report stag e. Where y o u have a O'lause a.bout w hich there i s a great deal of common agr e ement, and whe r e practicall y every r section of the C ommittee did much t o help the Minister in getting the Clause through, i t is ra.ther rough when it comes to a question of this kind, in wlhich w e want to giv e the peopl e administering these fund s the wides t power possib l e, that politics s h ould not b e k ept. -out of cons i dera t io n I do no t thin k t hat a n y hon. Member fro m a n y side would wi s h t o do otherwi s e when he realises the very good work t!ha t these societi e s :are d-oing. Many of t h e m are givi ng their work w ithout any finarn ci a l hel p. Here you a r e asking t h e m t o ex tend thei r work There are m e n of every part y i n thes e s oc i eties, and they are working w i t h c om m o n goo d w ill. W e wish to h e l p the societies in every way, but the House w ould be very badly ad vised t o accep t the Amendment of the Minister, because he h a s got a few ex ce ll ent words in thi s pa.rt of the Bill which w ill add enorm ous l y t o t h e easy working power s o f the B ill. In s u c h c i r cum stances, sure l y t h e Minister i s not g oing to insis t urpo n having these words withdrawn? Will he look .at i t f r o m a rath e r different point o f view? H e has not made out any case of very great diffi culty to-day. He is hying u p for himself, at some other time, per h aps, a more difficult position, and if only fwm the point of view o f helping the easy wo rk ing and the clean administratio n of the Bill, I w ould ask h i m to r econ s i d e r his position, and not insist upon taking out these wo r ds, which undoubtedly met with a great d ea.l of good will from all sections of t;he Committee upstairs. Mr. ORMSHY-GORE: Hon. M e mhers o n this ide wi ll I thi nk, regret the action o f the Minist e r i n endeavouring to take out on the Report stage what he inserte d in Committee. W e .shall ce.r tainly challenge this in the Division Lobby, because this. is undoubtedly the least controversial section of the BilL It is agreed that allotments in this c ountry have done nothing but good, and s o far, at any rate, t h e allotmen t soc i e ties hav e been most helpf ul and entir e l y free from politic al dis crimination. fW e want to .safeguard the future. Where Govern-ment money is b eing exp ended, there should not g row up .an y pol itical distinc tion in a dministrati o n and t his i s t h e ver y hes t way t o g uard agains t t h a t danger for t here is a danger i n certain area.s with p r edom inant pol i tical opinion on one sid e or he other, that favouritism will b e s h o wn in a so c i e t y and if you are t o give to all s o rts of s ocietie. s which are form e d f o r pur e l y s oc i a l and p hilan thropic purposes t he power to contribute to political parties you are dest roying a very v a lua;bl e Ame ndment. Because w e want to safeguard that posi t ion, we attach great importance t o the s e words. We d o not believe that the difficulty in a dministratio n would b e great and it is a safeguard to whi c h we attach import a n ce Que s tion put, "Tha t the words pro posed t o he l eft out stand part o f t h e B ilL" The H ouse d i vid ed: Ayes 159 ; N oes, 266. Di v ision N o 1 37.] A c land-Troyte, Lleut. Colonel Alb ery, I rvlng James AYE S. [4. 1 2 p.m. Amery Rt. Hon. Leopold C M. S Aahley, Lt. Col. Rt. Hon. Wlllrld w B a ldwln. Rt. Hon Stanley (Bewdley ) Balfour, Captai n H. H. (1. of Tha net) Balnlel, Lord Bea umont M W. Bell a lrs, Comm ander Carlyon Be t t er ton Sir lienry B 55 B i rd Ernest Roy Bourn; Capt a in Rob ert Crolt Bowat e r, Col Sir T V anslttar t Boy c e, Lesll e Bralthwaite, Major A. N B rass, Captai n S i r Wlll iam Bri s coe, R i ch ard Geor g e B r own Col D. C. (N'Ih' l d. Hexham) Brown, Brlg -G e n. H.C (Berka,Newb'y) Buchan, John Bullock, Captain Malcolm Bur t on, H. W Butler R. A. Campb ell, E. T. Ca1tle Stewart, Earl of C a utl e y, Sir H e n r y s. C a y zer, M aj.Sir H e rb!. R.(Prtsmth, S.) Cazalet, C apta in VIctor A. Chapman, Sir S. Chrlstle, J. A. c

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245 Agricultural Land Clydesdale, Marques s of Cohen, Major J. Brunei Colman, N. C. D. Colville, Major D. J. Cranborne, VIscount CrlchtonStuart, Lord C. Croll, Brigadier-General Sir H. C1ooks h a nk Cpt H.( Llndsey,G a lnsbro) Culverwell C. T (Bristol, Wes t ) Dalkelth, Earl of Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godlrey Davles, Maj. Geo. F (Somerset,Ycovll) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Dawson, Sir Phillp Dixon, Captain Rt Hon. Hcrbert Dugdale, Capt. T. L Eden, Captain Anthony Edmondson M ajar A. J. Elliot, Major Waiter E Erski ne L o rd ( Somerset,Weston-s -M.) Everard, W. Llnd say Falle, Sir Bertram G. Ferguson, Sir John Flelden, E. B. Flson, F. G. Claverlng Ford, Sir P. J. Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Gault, Lleut.-Col. A. Hamilton Gibso n C. G {Pudsey & Ot l ey) Glyn M ajor R G C Graham, F e rgu s (Cumberl a nd, N.) Gra ttan-Doyl e Sir N Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Guinness, Rt. Hon. Waiter E. Gunaton, Captain D. W. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Hall, Lleut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwlch) Hamilton, Sir Ge o rg e (JIIord) Hammersley, S S Hannon, P atrlck .Joseph Henry Hasl a m H e nry C. H c neMe. Ll eut. Col o n el Arth u r P Henne ssy, M ajor Sir G. R J H i lls M ajor Rt. Hon. John Waile r Adamson, Rt. Hon W. (File, West) Adamson W M. (Staff., Cannocl<) Add i son, R t Hon. Dr. Chrlstoph e r A i tchison Rt. H o n Cralgle M Alpass, J. H. A rnott, John Aske Sll' R obert Attlee, Clement Rich a rd Ayles, Waiter Bake;, John(Wolverhampton, Bllston) Baldwln, Oli ver ( Dudley) Barnes, Alfred John 8arr, Jame s Batey, Jos eph 'Bellamy, Albert B e nn ett, S i r E. N (Car d iff, Centr a l ) IBennett, Wllll a m (Battersea, Sou t h) a e ns o n G. Bllnd e ll, J a mes Bondlield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Broad, Francls Alfr e d Br o ckw a y, A F e nner Bromlleld Wllllam Bromley, J. Br ook e W Brothers M. Brown Er neat ( Leltll) Brown, Rt. Hon J. (South Ayrshire) Buchanan, G. Bur gess F. G Buxton C. R. (Yo rks. w. R. Elland) C a meron, A G. Cape, Thomas carter, W (St. Pancras, S. W .) Charlatan, H. c. <:hate r Daniel HOUSE OF COMMONS Hope, Sir Harry (Forlar) Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Howard Bury, Colonel C. K. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) H urd, Percy A. Hutchis on, Maj.Gen. Sir R. I veagh, Countess ol Knox, Sir Alfred Lamb, S i r J. Q. Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S Molton) Leiqhton, Major B. E. P. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) McConnell, Sir Joseph M acdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W .) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Jamea I. Makins, Brigadier-General E. M argesson, Captain H. 0. Marjorlbanks, Edward Mlllar J D M ltchell, Sir W L a ne (Streatham ) Mlt c h e ii Thomson, Rt Hon Sir W. Mons e ll, Eyres, Cam. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Mulrhead, A. J. Murnln Hugh Newton Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge} Nic holson, Coi.Rt. Hn. W.G.(Ptnl'ld) Nl e ld, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert O'Neill, Sir H Ormsby Gor e, Rt. Hon WiHiam Percy. Lord Eu s t a c e (Hastings) Peto Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barns t a pl e ) Power, Sir John Cecll Purbrlck, R. Ramsbotham, H. Rawson, Sir Cooper Reid, Davld D. (County Down) Rentoul Sir Gervals s. Reynolds, Col. Sir Jam e s Roberts, Si r S am uel (Ecclesall) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Si r J a m es R e nneU R o ss, M a ] o r R o nald D. Rothschlld, J. de Ru g gles-Brise, Lleut. Colonel E. A NOES. Cluse W. S Clynes Rt. Hon. John R. Cocks Frederlck Seymour Compton Joseph Cov e, Wllll a m G. C r lpps 'Sir Stafford Dag gar, Geo r ge Dallas George Oalton Hugh D a vles Rhys John (Westhoughton) Day, Harry Dudgeon M a)or C. R. Dukes, C. Duncan, Ch a r i K Ede, James Chuter Edmunds, J. E. Edwards, E (Morpeth) Egan, w. H. Elml ey, Viscount Foot, lsaac Fo rgan, Dr. Robert Freeman Peter G ardner, B W. (Wes t Ham, Upton) George, Meg a n Lloyd ( A n gl e sea) G lbblns, Jos e ph G lbson H M. (Lancs. Mossley) Gill, T. H. G lassey, A. E G o s sling, A G. Gould, F. Graham, Rt Hon. Wm. (Edln. Cent.) Granvllle E. Gray, Mllner Greenwood Rt Hon. A. (Colne) Grenle ll, [) R (Glamorg a n) Grlllitlis t. (Monmouth, Pontypool) G roves Thomas E. (Utilisation ) Bill. 246 Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Salmon, Major I Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Phllip A. G. D. Savery, S s. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Skelton, A. N. Sm ith, Louis W (Sheffield, H alla m) Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dlne, C.) SmithCarington, Neville W. Smithers, Waldron Somerset, Thomas Somervllle, A. A. (Windsor) Somervllle, D. G (Willesden, East) Southby, Commander A R. J. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) SteeiMai tl a nd Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Suete r, Rear Admiral M F. T a ylor, Vice-Admi ral E. A. Thomas, Major L B. (King's Norton) Thomsorr, Sir F Tinne, J. A. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Todd, Capt. A. J. Train, J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Wall a ce Capt. D E ( Horns e y ) W a rd Lleut -Col Sir A Lambert Wardla w-MII n e. J s W arre nder, Sir VIctor Wayland, Sir William A. Wells, Sydney R. Wllllams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Wllson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) WindsorCIIve, Lleut.-Colonel George Womersley, w. J. wood. Rt Hon. Sir K i ngsl e y WorthingtonEv a n s Rt. Hon Sir L. Youn g Rt. Hon. Sir H i lton TELLERS FOR THE A YES. Capta in S i r G eorge Bowyer and Sir George Penny. Grundy, Thomas W. Hall, F ( York, W. R., Normanton) Hall, G. H. (Merth y r Tydvll ) Hall, J. H (Whlte c hape l ) H all, C a pt. W. G ( P o rtsmouth, C. ) Hamilt o n M a ry Agn e s (Biackburn) Hamilton Sir R (Orkney & Zetlandl Hardie, George D. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Hastings, Dr. Somervllle Haycock, A. w. Hayday, Arthur H ayes, John H en ry Henders on Ri ght Hon. A. (Burnleyl Hend e r s on, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S ) Hend e r s on, Thom a s (Glas gow) H e nd e rson, W W (Midd x Enfield) Herriotts. J. Hlrst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworthl Hlrst, W. (Bradford, South) Hoffman P. c Hopkln, Daniel H o r e B ells h a L eslle Horrabln, J. F. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) 'Hunte r, Dr. Jose ph l saacs, G eorg a Jenklns, Sir Wllllam John, Wllllam (Rhondda, West) Johnst on Thomas Jones 1-ienry H a ydn (Merloneth) Jone s Rt. Hon Lell ( Camborne) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Jowett, Rt. Hon F W, Jowltt, Sir W A. (Pres ton) K e dward, R M. (Kent .lhhlqrd) Kenn e dy, Rt. Hon. Thomas

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247 A gricultuTal Land Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Klnley, J. K irl ; Rowson Guy Wellock, Wllfred Salter, Dr. Alfred Welsh, James ( Paisley) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (.Oarwen) West, F. R. Sanders, W. S. Westwood, Joseph Sandham, E. White, H. G. Sawyer, G. F. Whiteley, Wilfrld (Birm., Ladywood) Scott, James W llklnson, Ell en C. Scrymgeour, E. Williams, Davld (Swansea, East) Scurr, John Williams, Dr. J H. (Lianelly) Se xton, Sir James Willi a ms, T. (York, Don Valley] Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Prciton) Wilson, J. (Oidham) Shepherd, Arthur Lewla Wllson, R. J. (Jarrow) Sherwood, G. H. Winterton, G. E.(Lelcester,Loughb'gh) Shield, George Wllllam Wise, E. F. Shlels, Dr. Drummond Wood, Major McKenzle (Banff) Shlllaker, J, F. Young, A. s. (Islington, North) Shlnwell, E. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) TELLERS FOR THE NOES Slmmons, C J. ,Mr. AlleJt ParkiJtsoJt and Mr. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Charles Edwards. Captain BOURNE: I beg to move, in page 18, line 19, at the end, to insert .the words: person should r egister a s unemployed. The Ministry o.f Labour informed me in an answer to a question that the effe c t of the new A c t i n England was that .there was an increase in t h e numbe r of p e ople on the reg.ister. There is reason to believ e that a ll the unemp loyed in thi s country a r e registered at Employment Exchanges, although m a n y of them are not entitled to benefit. Therefore, :some definition o f unemployed IS wanted. The whole object of this part of the B ill whic h deals with a llotments and sm all holdings is to give jobs to the unem ployed. It is an une mploym ent relie f Measure rather than :an agricultural Measure, and we : fe el ,that we cai;Lnot g e t a better defin ition than that an unemployed p e rson is one who i:;; registered at an Employment Exchange. J cannot see any hardship-" Unemployed i.n relation to a 'Person means whose name i s entered in the unemployment register.'' One o f the difficulties which we had in the Committee stage. was to get some definition nf "unemployed." Roughly spea.king, when we discuss unemployment, the general feeling is that what we mean by unemployed persons are those unfortunate individuals whose names appear in the weekly list of the Min istry of Labo u r. Practically every person is on that :register, irrespective of wh e .ther or not he is entitle d to unemployment benefit. The reason for that is that before the operation of the. :Local Government Act, the boards of g u ardi1:1,ns ha. d laid i t down as a condition of granting that a No. 55 0 2

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249 AgTi.cultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 250 Mr. PALl N: What about the agricul-Major ELLI OT: The hon. Member is tural labourer ; he is not registered 1 continually interrupting, and his inter Captain BOURN E: He is covered under another Clause and under a new Clause which was inserted in Committee. In addition, there is nothing to stop the agricultural labourer registering himself if he is out of work. It is true that he cannot get benefit, but that does not prevent him registering himself. If any body wants to claim relief as an unem ployed man under this Bill it is not asking too much that he should register as an unemployed man. Lieut.-Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: I beg to Second the Amendment. Dr. A.DDISON: We discussed in Com mittee the fact that we have not put a definition of unemployed in the Bill, and I think that I succe e ded in convinc ing the Committee that it was a wise proceeding, because in different Acts there are definitions of the word, which are by no means the same. In this par ticular case, the proposed definition is that he should be a person who is regis tered as unemployed at a n Employment Exchange and the remark of the hon. and gallant M ember with regard to the agricultural labourer does not quite cover it. In Clause 7, it is true, the agricultural worker is in the same posi tion as if he were unemployed with re gard to the provision of a smallholding, but in this particular case the difficulty might arise that an agricultural worker might take over an allotment and have to go to a town two or three miles away to register. It will be easy to ascertain whether or not a man is unemployed, and I cannot see any advantage in inserting this definition. There would be inquiry into a man's bona fid e s by those in charge of the local administration, who will have means of findin g out whether a person is unemployed. I do not think we need go beyond that. Major ELLI OT: The Minister has not met the point, and I d oubt if h e has fully understood it. His suggestion is that a man merely has to state that h e i s un employe d, but our suggestion i s that he only n ee d go to an E.xchange and sign a register. Mr. PALIN: You are trying to put the unemployed man to as much inconv e m ence as you can. ruptions show that he has not grasped any of the points we are discussing. He brings forward the suggestion that this is an attempt to put the unemployed man to inconvenience. It is the Government's proposal which will do that. 'l'he Minister has used the phrase bona fide," that is to say, genuinely seeking work. That is what he stands for. We stand for the perfectly simple test whether a man is registered. The Minister also stands for the loc a l adminis tration holding an inquiry into cases, and he says that it will be easy to ascertain whether a man is unemployed. Does he think that that will ease the case of the unemployed 1 Mr. PALIN: Nonse nse. Major ELLI OT: The hon. Member, when challenged, is unable to substan tiate any of the assertions that he makes. The Minister prides himself that he wat:; able to convince the Committee. He was not able to do that. He voted the Oppo sition down, as a Government can do, but he did not convince the Committee He got his own way .by saying that he would assume on his own sh
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251 A;gricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 252 question by his own a,dministrative disachieve all that 1 want. I think the cretion, and that is a .position from which Amendment would be hard on we ask the House to rescue him. fishermen living in .a. small fishing village far away :from an Employment Exchange, because they could not be expected to go such a long distance in order to register themselv es as unemployed. That is not a reasonable thing to ask fishermen to do in those circumstances. All t-he fishermen living in a fishing village might be very desirous to have allotn:nents on the terms prov1ded for in this Bill. That is a single illus t1ation but I could give many instances from S co tLa n d where the peo'Pl e live four miles away from the place where they would have to register. If this Amendment could be amended in such a way as to enable people engaged in the fishing industry to be c onside.red on separate lines, then it would h e a very goo d proposa l. The Amendment i s all righ t from the point nf' view of those who live dose to the Employment Exchanges, but it is not convenient for those who live in districts far away from the Ex changes. I recognise that t here is something in what the Minister of Agriculture has said in regard to this Amendment, but I think by suggesting the possibility o:f adjusting this matte!' in another place the Minister has done 'Very' foolish. :Between the proposal of the Minister and the Amend ment of my hon. and gallant Friend I a m in rather a difficult position, but I shall vote for the l eas t foolish of t h e t wo p roposals. Colonel ASHLEY: I hope the right hon, Gentleman will reconsider his de CISion. We have propose d this Amendment after making considerable inquiries, and we are assured that if a man is unemployed, according to our Amendment, he is eligible under this Bill. According to this Measure, as I read it, if the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member fo r O x fo r d (Captain Bourne) is not inserted, any man who was not genuinely unemployed might benefit. We are anxious to relieve the Minister of Agriculture of unnecessary inquiries. Or, ADDISON: It is a matter of convenience that this point should ;be arranged as is provided for in the Bill. The Amendment proposed by the lion. and gallant Gentleman opposite would make a tremendous amount of unecessary work. Colonel ASH LEY: On the contrary, I think this Amendment would 1avoid a great deal of unne cessary inquiry and ex p ense If a person puts down his n a m e wrongly, then the Minister is free to make inquiries. Mr. C. Wl LLIAMS: I am in some difficulty in regard to this question. I think the Ministel' 'could very :easily build on this Amendment a very Con siderable improvement in the Bill. The Amendment we are discussing is a simple and easy rule to be adopted in regard to people who are out of work. I am in agreement with my hon. and gallant Friend's proposal, although it does not Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill." Divis i o n No. 138.] Ac!and Troyte, Lieui Colonel Albery, I rving James Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Ashley, LI Col. Rt. Hon. Willrid W. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Atkinson, c. B a lllieH a mllton, Hon. Ch a rles W Baldwin, Rt Hon. Stanle y (Bewdl ey) Ballour, Captain H. H. (1. of Thanet) Balnlel, Lord Be aumont, M. W Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon B elterton, Sir Henry B B e van, S. J (Holborn) Blrchall, Major Sir John Dearman Bird, Ernes! Roy Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Bowater C ol. Sir T. V a n sittart Bowyer Capt a in Sir G eorge E. W Boy c e, L eslie Brass, Captain Sir Willlam The House 268. divided: Ayes, 170; AYES. Briscoe, Ric hard Geor ge Brown, Col. D. C (N'Ih'l'd., Hexham) Brown, Brig.Gen. H .C.( Berks, Newb'y) Buchan, John Bullock, Captain M alcolm Butler R. A. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Campbell E. T. Castle Stewart, Earl of Cautley, Sir Henry S. C a yz e r, Sir C. (Chester, City) C ayzer, M a j. S ir Herb!. R.(Prtsmth,S.J <:azalet. Captain VIctor A. Ch apman. Sir S. Chrislle. J. A Clyde sdale, Marquess of Collen, Major J Brunei Colman N. C. D Cranborne, Viscount Crichton -Stuart, Lord C. Crook shank, C a pt. H. C. [4.39 p.m. Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) CunllfleLioter Rt Hon. Sir Phlllp Dalkelth, Earl ol DalrympleWhlte, LI Col. Sir Godfrey llavles, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset,Yeovll) Davlson, Sir W, H. (Kensington, S,) Dawson, Sir Phllip Dlxon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Duckworth G A. V Dugdale, Capt. T L. Eden, C aptain Anthony Edmond so n, Major A. J Elllot, Major Waiter E. Ersklne Lord (Somerset,Weston-sM.) W Llnd say F a lle, S i r Bertram G Ferguaon, Sir John F ermoy, Lord Fl e lden, E. B. Flson, F. G. Claverlng Ford, Sir P. J

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253 Agricultural Land Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Galbralth, J. F. W. Gault, Lleut.-Col. A. Hamilton Glbson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Glyn, Major R. G. C. Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Grltten, W. G. Howard Guinness, Rt. Hon. Waiter E. Gunston, Captain D. W. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Hamilton, Sir George (lllord) Hammersley, S. S. Hannon, Patrlck Joseph Henry Haslam, Henry C. H eneag e, Lleut.-Colonel Arthur P. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Wailer' Hope, Sir Harry (Forla r) HowardBury, Colonel C. K Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) H urd, Percy A. I veag h, Countess ol Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Knox, Sir Alfred Lamb, Sir J. Q. Lelg hton, Major B. E. P. Lewls, Oswald (Colchester) LockerLampson, Corn. O .(Handsw'th) Long, Major Hon. Eric Lymln gton, VIscount McConnell, Sir Joseph Maklns, Brigadier-General E. Margesson, Captain H. D. M arjorlbanks, Edward M erriman, Sir F. Boyd Adamson Rt. Hon. W (File West) Adamson W M. (Stall., Cannock) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Chrlstopher Aitchlson, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. AI pass, J. H. Arnott, John Aske, Sir Robert Attlee, Clement Richard Ayles, Waiter Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston) Baldwln, Ollver ( Dudley) Barnes, Alfred John Barr, James Batey, Joseph Bellamy, Albert Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Ben nett, Wllliam ( Battersea, South) Benson, G. Blindell, James Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Ch a rles W. Bro a d, Francl s Alfred Bromfi e ld, Wllllam Broml e y, J. Brooke, W. Brothers, M. Brown, Er nest (Leith) Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Buchanan, G. Burgess, F. G Burgln, Dr. E. L. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Cam e ron, A. G Cape, Thomas Carter, W. (St. i>ancras, S W .) Charleton, H. C. Chater, Daniel Cluse, W. S. Cocks, Frederlck Seymour Compton, Joseph Cove, Wllllam G. Crlpps, Sir Stafford Daggar G e orge Dallas, G eorge Dalton, Hugh HOUSE OF OOMMONS M ltchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) M ltchell Thomson. Rt. Hon. Sir W M on sell Eyres, Corn. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T. c. R. (Ayr) Morrlson, W. S. (Glos., Clrencester) M ulrhead, A. J. Newton, Sir D. G C (Cambrldye) Nlcholson, Col. Rt. Hn.W. G.('Ptrsl'ld) Nleld, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert O'Nelll, Sir H. Onnsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. Wllllam Peake, Capt. Osbert Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastinga) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Plcton-Turbervill, Edlth Power, Sir John Cecil Purbrlck, R. Ramsbotham, H. Rawson, Sir Coop er Reld, David D. (County Down) Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Reynolda, Col. Sir Jamu Roberts, Sir Samuel ( Ecclesall) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Ross Major Ronald D. Ruggles-Brlse, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Salmon, Major I. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Sassoon. Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A G D Savery, S. S. 'Shepperson, Sir Ernes! Whittome Skelton, A. N. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffiold, Hallarr.r Smith, R. W .(Aberd'n & Klnc'dine, C.) NOES. (Utilisation) Bill. 254 SmlthCarington, Nevllle W. Smithers. Waldron Somerset, Thomas Somervllle, A. A. (Windsor) Somervllle, D. G. (Willesdon, East) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Steei-Maltland, Rt. Hon Sir Arthur Stuart, Hon. J. (Mnray and Nairn) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Thomson, Sir F. r;nne, J. A. Todd, Capt. A. J. Train, J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. Gcorge Clement Turton, Robert Hugh Wallace, Capt. D E (Hornsey) Ward, Lleut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Wardlaw-MIIne, J. S. Warrender, Sir Victor Wayland, Sir Willlam A. Wells, Sydney R Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Wllson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) V. indsorCiive, Lieut.-Colonel George Womersley, W. J. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Klngsley Worthlngton-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Wrlght, Brig.'Gen. W. D (Tavist'k) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir H llton TELLERS FOR THE A YES.Sir George Penny and Major the Marquess of Titchfield. Davles, Rhya John (Westhoughton) Hendenon, w w (Middx., Enneld) Day, Harry Herrlotts, J Dudgeon, Major C. R Hlrst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Dukes, C. Hlrst, W. (Bradford, South) Duncan, Charles Hollman, P. C. Ede, James Chuter Hopkin, Daniel Edmunds, J. E. HoreBellsha, Leoile Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Horrabln, J. F. Egan, W. H. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Elmley, VIscount Hunter, Dr. Joaeph England, Colonel A. Hutchlson, Maj Gen. Sir R. Foot, laaac lsaa cs, George Forgan, Dr Robert Jenkins Sir Willlam Freeman, Peter John, Willlam (Rhondda, Weat) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Johnston, Thomas George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) Glbblns, Joseph Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Glbson H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F W. Gill, T. H Jowltt, Sir w. A. (Preston) Glassey, A. E Kedward, R. M (Kent, Ashford) Gossllng, A. G Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomao Gould, F. Kenworthy. Lt.-Com Hon. Jose ph M. Granvllle, E. Kinley, J. Gray, M liner Kirk wood, D. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Knight, Hollord Grenlell D. R. (Glamorgan) Lambert. Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Grlflith, F. Klngsley (Middlesbro' W.) Lang, Gordon Griffiths, (Monmouth, Pontypool) Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Groves, Thomas E. Lathan, G. Grundy, Thomas W. Law, Albert (Bolton) Hall, F (York W R., Normanton) Law, A (Rossendale) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybrldge) Hall, J. H. (Whltechapel) L awther, W. (Barnard Castle) Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Leach, W. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Biackburn) L e e, Frank (Derby, N.E.) H a milton, Sir R. (Orkne y & Zetland) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Hardie, George D. Lees, J. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Lcwls, T. (Southampton) Hastings Dr. Somervllle Lloyd, C. Ellis Haycock, A. W. Logan, Davld Gilbert Hayday, Arthur Longbottom, A. W. Hayes, John Henry Longden, F. Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Lunn, Wllllam Henderson, Arthur, junr. (C a rdiff, S.) Macd onald, Gordon (lnce) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)

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255 Agricultural .Land MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) McEiwee, A. McEntee, V. L. McKinlay, A. Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) MacNelii-Welr, L. Macpherson Rt. Hon. James I. McShan e, John James Malone C. L 'Estrange (N'thampton) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Mansfield, w. Marcus, M. Markham, s. F. Marley, J. Marshall, Fred M at hers, G eorge Maxton, James Melvllle Sir J a mes Meuer, Fre d Mlddl eton, G. Mlllar, J. D. Mills, J. E. Milner, Major J. Montague, Frederlck Morgan, Dr. H. B. Morley, Ralph Morris, Rhys Hopklns Morr i s-Jones Dr J H (Denblgh) Morrlson Rt. Hon H. (Ha ckney S ) Morrl s o n, Robert C (Tottenham, N.) Mort, D. L. Mosley, Lady C. (Sioke-on-Trent) Muff, G. Muggeridge, H. T. Murnln, Hugh Naylor, T. E. Newman, Sir R. H s. D. L. (Exeter) Noel Baker, P J Noel -Buxton, Baron e s s (Norfolk N ) Oldfield J. R. Ollver, P M (Man., Blackl e y) Palln, John Henry Palmar, E. T. Parkinson, John Alien (Wigan) 10 FEBRUARY 1931 Perry, S. F. Peters. Dr. Sldney John PethlckLawrence, F. W. PlctonTurbervill, Ed Jth Polts, John S. Price, M. P. Pybus, Percy John Qulbell, D. J K Ram say, T. B Wll1on Ray nes, W. R. Rlchards, R. Richardson R. (Houghlon-le-Sprlng) Rlley Ben ( Dewsbury) Rlloy, F. F. (Stockton-on-Teos) Rltson, J. liomeril, H. G. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Rothschlld, J. de Rowoon, Guy Salter, Dr. Alfred Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H (Darwen) Sanders, W. s. Sandham, E. Sawyer G. F. Scott, James Scrymgeour, E. Scurr, John Se xton, Sir James S h a k e spear e Geoffrey H. Shaw Rt. Hon Thomas (Preston) Sh e pherd, Arth u r L ewls Sherwood G H. Shield, George Willlam Shlels, Dr. Drummond Shlllaker, J. F. Shlnwell, E Short. Alfred (Wednesbury) Slmmona c. J Smith Alf red (Sunde r land) Sm ith, Be n (B e rmonds ey., RotherhltheJ S mith Frank ( Nuneaton) Smith, H. B. L ees -(Kei ghley) Smith, Rennle (Pe nl sto n e ) Smith, Tom (Ponte fr a ct) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) (UtiLisation) Bill. Snell, Harry Snowden, Rt. Hon Philip Sorensen, R. Stamlord, Thomas W. Stephen, Campbell Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Sulllvan, J. Sutton, J E Tay for R. A (Lin col n ) 256 Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow) Thurtle, Ernest Tinker, John Joaeph Toole, Joseph Tout, W. J. Townend, A. E. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon Sir Ch a rles Vaug h a n, Davld Vla nt, S. P W a lkd en, A. G. Walker, J. Wallace, H. W. Watkins, F. c. Watson, W. M (Dunfermline) Watts-M organ, Lt. -Col. D. (Rhondda) Wellock, Wilfred Welsh, James (Paosley) W e st, F R. W es twood Joeeph White, H. G. White l e y, Wlllrld (Birm., Ladywo o d) Wilklnson, Ellen C. W illiams, Davld (Swansea, East) Wllllams Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Wllllamo, T. (York Don Valley) Wilson, C. H. (Sh e ffield, Attercliflel Wllson, J. (Oidh a m) Wllson, R. J. (Jarrow) Wlnterton G E.(Lelcester,Loughb'gh) Wise, E. F. Wo o d Major McKenzl e (Banff) foung, R. s. (Islington, North) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Paling. Miss PI CTON-TU RBERVI LL: O n a point o f O r d er. Unfort u n a t e l y, b y a mistake I voted in the "Ayes" L obby, and to put it right I then wen t into the Noes" L ob b y Woul d it b e i n order to can ce l the Aye vot e 1 m oved on the Report stage. A s we have g.ot a se-parate sub-C ommittee I .think there i s .a case for the separate financial treatment asked for i n thi s Amendment. The propo s als brough t f orwar d by the Minister of A griculture and by the Secre tary o f .State for .Sco-tland a r e admittedly of a. n ebulous and tentative character. The n8!b u lo u sness o f the m i s s u c h t hat we have no t been abl e to get. from the Mi nister what he means by large-scal e farms. He has .said it wou l d be unreasomllhle to press him on t hat point now si n ce l a11ge -scal e fa.rming i s .an y thing that m a y h appen to c ome into his he&d. If tha t is so l e t u s be sure, at least, t h a t the p r opos a l s whic h are to b e brough t forward, and for wh i c h we shall ha.ve to pay, i n Scotl a n d, are su c h as we s h all b e abl e to derive b e n efi t from, t hat someth i n g shall be demonstrated whic h wi ll be of use. Large-scal e farming O n t h e light lands of .Eng land w ill not com mend its elf for i m i ta;tion in Scotland. Mr. SPEAKER: No, the m atter must b e left a s it is. two v otes the h o n. M'embe r h a s give n will can ce l o n e a nother. CLA USE 21.-(Financial pro visions. ) Major ELLI OT: I beg to move m page 19, line 6 a t the end t o insert t he w ords: and e l eve neig h t i e t hs of s u c h s ums shall be paid into a sep arate account for opera tions in larg e sca l e farmin g conducted by t h e Agricu ltural Land Corporation in Scotland. When a similar Amendment .t.o this was moved in Committee we were unsu cce s s fu l but I am emhol de n e d to submit i t to the H o use on this occasion b y t h e fact t ha.t t h e A m endment to set u p a sub Co mmittee for Swtland was rejected in Committee but was accepted when i t was There is, howeve r a danger, and the UnderSecret a .ry of State h a s b r o u g h t it o u t, that not very much w i ll be d o n e

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257 Ag1iculturo l L o ncl HOUSE OF COMMON.S (Utilisation) Bill. 258 [Major Elliot. ] under this heading in Scotland. If that be S O, then we shall be paying for experiments which are of no use to us. Our point has been met by the Government in other parts of the Bill. In Clause s 2 and 3 they adopt the proposal for eleven-eightieths. Hon. Members will see that on rpage 19 of the Bill-pa.ra gra-ph (a) says that the sum to be dealt with by the Agricultural Land Corporati-on is not to exceed ,000,000. Para graph (b) says that the sums required by the Minister for the purchase of la.nd under Glauses 2 and 3 of the Bill shall not exceed ,000,000, and goes on to say that the ,000,000 shall be divided in the ratio of giving Scotland ,000, which is the eleven-eightieths basis. There is no such provision, however, in the case of large-scale farming. We say this is anomalous. No ca.se has been made .out by the Minister to explain why in one part of the Bill the money is to be de voted to Scotland in the ratio of eleven eightieths and in the other part o.f the Bill not. If anything, we ought to be more a.nxious to unake sure that we haiVe elev ene i ghtieths of the 000,000, since the proposals there are much more tentative. The only argument brought forward by the Under-Secretary has been that this would run counter to our :pre vious contention that Scotland should ibe left out of the proposa:Is for farming. It does not in any way run counter to it. Our proposal has always been to leave Scotland out of that pro vision, but to give Sco-tland e leveneightieths of the sum and let the money go to the Department of Agriculture for Scotland, which is an existing body and ca.n act in these matters. There is nothing contradictory in having voted in favour of Scotland !being excluded from the operations of a oorporation for largescale farming for the United Kingdom and in moving that now that we have a sub-Oommittee for .Scotla.nd that subCommittee should have control of eleveneightieths of the funds which the corporation will handle. Mr. R. W. SMITH: I beg to se cond the Ame .ndment. l !hope the .G;ovemme.n.t will give it favouraible consideration. The whole pro ce.dure in regard to }arge-scale farming in Scotland has been progressive. When the Bill w&s first ;broug1ht in it was clear frorm the S!Jle e che : s made by tJhose on the Gove.rnment Front Bench representing Scotland that they did not inte.nd to apply large-::>cale farming to S cotland. Tlhey thought that that Sion would p&s.s unnoticed, but they made a mista. ke, be.cause there are a certa.in num'ber of S cotsmen on the Opposi tion side of the. House, .and even a ce rtain nurmlber .among the LilbeJ:al party, who al ways try to ge t tlhe best they can for S:cotlan.d, and I feel sure that we shaH havetheir support in this matter. First of all tJhe Government were not going to do .anything, and then we se 1 cure'd the appointment o[ a sub-lcom mittee ; and I say tha-t we are only f.ollowing out the natural sequence of events in providing that subc ommittee witJh funds with whi ch to ca .rry on its work. Tf the committee is not to h&ve funds what will lbe. tJhe. use of it 1 It will be in the hands entirely od' the English director, and might as well not exist. The committee that the. main corpt>rati on se ts UJp may be entirely com P O sed of Englishmen, wlho know nothing at all a;bout Scotland. It is a well-'k:nnwn fa:ct that tJhose who hold the pur.se string s are alble to call the tune, an.di WB are a slking for nothing more than is reasunaJble for Scotland in asking for the eleven-eightieths to be set aipart in a sepa.rate fund :for Iarge-scale farming in Scotland. Mr. MACPHERSON: I rise to rein fovce the arguments rput forward by my two hon. Friend' s who have J[Jreceded me. What they want is only tJhe corolhty of what they have already got. When it was argued the other d ingly, must have the funds with which to d o it. When any sum is given to En.g:and in the ordinary course eleven-eightietJhs od' the amount i.s given to Scotland, under tlhe old Gos chen rule, and all we a : sk o : f the Governrment is tha.t they should continue the pra ctice of tl e pa.st, and, having estaJbli shed a C'Ommittee, give it tJhe appropriate rupportionment of the Imperial funds. It is perfectly true that at no s .tage have we a .rdently desired farming in S-cotland.

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259 Ag1icultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (U t'ilisatio-n) BiU. 260 We have lhad e x.pe rimenltal fa.r.,min.g there for some time, and the same nece :ssity for large..oscale farming d oe : s not obtain there a.. s it does south of the horde,r; but !We do desire that tlhis su'b-committee should have funds, so that they may consider where a.dvances can be made in our a.gri cul.tural methods, whether in sheeJp.tfarming on a large scale or cattleraising on a large scale, for there are many exoperiments yet to lbe 'tried. A ccordingly, we as Socottislh Members .strongly pres s this Almendment, ando ask the Gove rrument to reconsider tlhe whole p : osition. The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Johnston): As the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) very correctly said, this point was discussed upstairs in Com mittee and was negatived there without a Division. Major E L;LJ OT: I agree that that was so, but we had come to an arrangement with the Government, and in fulfilment of that arrangement we were doing our utmost to facilitate business. Mr. JOHNSTON: I do not say that hon. Members ran away from this Amendment, but there were, doubtless, very cogent and reasonable considerations which influenced them in choosing other and more important issues upon which to divide the Committee upstairs. When there was only a limited time 5.0 p.m. at their disposal they chose matters of greater moment and importance and decided that this was not one of them. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is perfectly well aware that this is one part of the Bill which the Government, the House of Commons, and the Committee upstairs decided that it would be inappropriate, and indeed difficult, to run in separate nationalist compartments. We separated our smallholdings and allotments work, we separated our demonstrat'ion farms, and we separated reconditioning, but it was found to be a matter of great difficulty to set up two large-scale farming corporations and to allocate ,000,000 in the proportions in which money is usually divided between Scotland and England. It was considered to be much more desirable that, if there was to be a largescale experiment in mechanised farming, the United Kingdom Corporation should be set up with powers to borrow as laid down in the Bill, to deal with matters really on a large scale and not in any parochial sense whatsoever. If the experiment were a success-poultry farming, or sheep farming or cereal farming or whatever it might be-obviously all the agriculturists in the country would get the benefit of it. If, for example, the corporation should decide that more of the money could be usefully spent in Scotland, we do not want the corporation to be debarred from doing so ; but, if this Amendment were carried, the corporation could only spend up to eleven-eightieths of this money in .Scotland. It is unreasonable that the corporation, which is admittedly an experiment, should have its hands tied and be criobed, cabined and confined in its initial stage. If subsequently it should be found that the operations of this corporation could be and should be extended both in Scotland and England, then it might be a right and proper thing to say that Scotland should get an appropriate share of the money allocated ; but in the initial stages of this great experiment, surely it is highly desirable that the corpomtion should not be unnecessarily cramped in its efforts to make the experiment a success. lf the work is to be done with any chance of success, I submit that the directors of the corporation should be left as free as to chose the subjects and areas on which they are most likely to achieve success. It was for those reasons that the Government decided that it was preferable in the initial stages that the corporation should have a United Kingdom basis. Sir PATRICK FORD: I am v e ry g l a d that the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secre tary of State fo-r Scotland recognises that the United King. d om ba: s is for legislation is S Ometimes desirable in ref.el'ence to :Scotland. He and I differ in that we think different thing. s should be dealt with separately. This is a thing that I do not think should be dealt with on a United Kingdom basis at aU, because, oa: s I under stand it, it r :elates to experiments in large scale farming. I speak as
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261 Agricultural Land HOUSE "OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 262 [Sir P. Ford.] triot farming is on quite a big en
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263 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 264 Sir HARRY HOPE: I want to say that any more than what is the ordinary in Scotland there is absolutely no desire Scottish share. If this m oney could be' money to b e spent upon large -scale spent on research work, we would be national farming. My hon. and gallant quite ready to take all we could get. Friend t h e .JYiemb e r for Tiverto n (Lieut. -But to spend it on the futile, absurd, and Col o n e l A cland-Troy t e) has said tha t we unpractica l pro p osal of carrying on in Scotland want to g e t as muc h m o n ey gove r n m enta l farms is a n abso l u t e waste here as we can possibly obtain. Whether of public money at a time when there is we have done that or not in the past I no public money to spare, and we Scots do not know, but certainly on this do not desire to take any hand in that work. occasion we h a ve no desire to gra b money for this purpose. Large-scale national farming is anathema to the w h o le of the agricultural community of t h e count r y, and therefore we have no desire to get Question put, That t hose words be there inserted i n the Bill." The Hous e divided: Ayes, 202; Noes 2 41. Division No. 139.] AYES. Albery, lrvlng Ja:mes Duckworth, G. A. V. Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S., Dudgeon, Major c R Ash lay, Lt.Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. d a le, Capt. T. L. Aske, Sir Robert Eden, C apta in Anthony Astor. IVIa j Hn. John J. ( Kent, D ove r) Etl mondson Major A J Atholl Du c h ess of Elliot, M ajor W aiter E Atk inson, C El m ley, Vis co unt BalllleHamllton, Hon. Charle s W. England, Colonel A. Baldwln, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Ersk i ne, Lord (Somerset,Westons -M.) Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. ol Thane:) Everard, w. Llndsay Balnlel, Lord Falle, S i r Bertram G. Beaumont. M. W. Ferguson, Sir John Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon Fermoy Lord Betterton, Sir Henry B Flelden, E. B. Bevan S J. (Holborn) F lson, F. G. Claverlng Blrchall Major S i r John Dearman Foot, Jsaac Bird Ern es R oy Ford Si r P. J. Blind ell, J ames Galbraith, J. F w. Bourn e, Capt a in Rob ert Croft. G ault, Li e ut.-Col A. Hamilton Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vanslttart Gibson C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Glassey, A. E. Boyce, Leslie Glyn, Major R. G. c. Bracken, B. Gower, Sir Robert Bralthwalte M a 1or A. N Grace, John Bras s, Captain Sir Wllllam Gra h a m Fergus (Cumberland, N ) Br iscoe, Rich a rd G eorge Gra n v ille, E Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l' d., Hexham) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N Brown Ern es! ( L eith) Gra y, Miln e r Brown, Brlg.-Ge n .H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Grlffith F. Kingsl e y (M i ddlesbro W.) Bu c h an-Hepburn, P G. T. Gritten, w G. H owa r d Buchan, John Gui nness, Rt. Hon. Waiter E. Bullock, Captain Malcolm Gunston. Cap tain D. W. Burgin, Dr. E. L. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H Butler, R A. Hamilton, Sir George (llford) Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hamme rsley, s s Campbell, E T. Hanbury, C. Carver, M ajor W. H. H annon, Patric k Jos e p h H e nry C a stlo Ste w a rt, E a rl of Haslam, H enry c. Cautley, Sir Henry S H ennessy, M ajor Sir G. R. J Cay zer, Sir C. (Cheste r, City) Hills, M ajor Rt. Ho n John Wailer C a y ze r, M aj. S ir Her b!. R. (Prts mth S ) Hope, Sir Harry (For f a r ) Cazalet, C apta i n Vi ctor A Hore -B e ll s h a L e sli e Cec i l, Rt. Hon. Lo r d H (Ox. Univ.) Howard Bury, Colonel C. K. Ch apman. SirS. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack ney 1\i. ) Ch rl stie, J A. Hunter, Dr. Jose ph Clyd es d a l e, Marquess o f Hurd, Percy A Cohen M ajor J Brune i Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Colm a n N. C. D Hutc hl s on M a j.-G e n. Sir R. Colvlll e M ajor D. J. lveagh Countess of Cranbo r n e, Viscount Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke Newgton) CrlchtonStuart, Lo r d C. J o nes, Henry Hayd n ( M c r ioneth) Crook s h a nk C pt.H.(Lindse y,Galn shro ) Klnd e r s l ey, M ajor G. M. Cul ve rweli C T. (Br i s t o l West) Lamb Sir J. Q. CunllffeLis t e r Rt. Hon Sir Phi llp Lamb ert, Rt. Hon. G eo rn e ( l Molton ) Dalke lth, E a rl of Lewl s Osw a ld (Colchester) Dalrympl eWhlte Lt.-C ol. Si r Go dfrey Long, Majo r H o n. Eric D a v ies,.' M aj. G e o. f (S o m e r se t YeovH) Lymi ngto n VIscount Davl so n Sir W H (Kensington, S.J M c Conn e ll Sir Joseph Dawson, Sir Phili p Macdona ld Cap t P. D ( 1 o f W l Dlxon, C apta in Rt. Hon. He rbert Maclean S ir Donald (Cornwall N.) [5.16 p.m. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. M akins. Brigadie r-General E. Margesson, Captain H. D. Marjorlban ks, Edwar d M e ll e r R J M e rrlman, Sir F Boyd Mit c h e ll S ir W Lane (Str e atham) Mit cheiiThomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond} Moore, Lleut.Colonel T. C. R. (AyrJ M orris, Rhys Hopkins Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H (Denblgh) Morrlson, W. s. (Glos., Muirhead, A. J. Newton, Sir D. G C ( C ambridge) Nich o l s on Coi.Rt. Hn. W .G .(Ptrsf'ld) Nleld Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert Ollver, 1". M (Ma n ., Blackle y ) O'Neill, Sir H. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. Wllliam Peake, Captain Osbert Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Peters, Dr. Sldne y John Peto, Sir Ba s il E (Devon, Ba rnstapie) P ower, Sir John C e cll Purbrick, R R a ms ay, T. B. Wilson R amsbolham H. R aws on, Si r Coop e r Rei d LJa vid D. (County Down) Rentoul, Sir Gervais S. Reynolds, Col. Sir J a mes Rob erts, Sir S a muel ( E cclcs a ll) Rodd Rt. Hon. Sir Jame s Rennell Ross, Major Ronald D Ru gg l e sBrlse, Li eut C o l o n e l E A Ru sse ll, Alexand e r W es t (Tyne m outh) Samue l A. M. (Surre y, F a rnh a m ) S a ndem an, Sir N. Slew art Sassoon Rt. Hon S i r Phili p A. G. D. S a v e ry S. S Scott, James Shakespeare, G e offrey H. Sheppe rson Sir Ernest Whlttome Ske lton, A. N. S m it h Louis W ( S h effie ld H alla m) S m ith R W (Aberd n & K in c'dine, C ) S m ith C a r i n g ton, N ev ill e W Smi th e rs, W aldron Somerset, Thoma s Somerville A A (Wi ndsor) Som e rvlll e D G. (Wllles den East) Southby, Com m ander A R. J Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Sta nl e y L o rd ( F y lde) Stanley, M aj. Hon. 0. (W'm orland) Steel-Ma ltland, Rt. H o n S i r A rthur Stuart, Hon. J. (Mora y and N a irn) Suete r, Rear-A d m i r a l M. F

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265 AgTiwltur al Land Taylor, VIce-Admiral E. A. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Thomson, Sir F. Tlnne, J. A. Tltchfield, Major the Marquess ol Todd, Capt. A. J. Train, J. Trycn, Rt. Hon. George Clement Turton, Rob ert Hugh Acland-Troyte, Lieut.Colonel Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., cannock) Addlson, Rt. Hon. Dr. Chrlstopher Altchison, Rt. Hon. C raJgie M. Ale xander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Alpa s s, J. H. A ngell, Sir Norman A1nott John Attlee, Clement Richard Ayles, Waiter Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston) Baldwln, Ollver ( Dudley) Barnes, Alfred John Barr, James Batey, Joseph Bellamy, Albert Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Ben s on G Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Broad, Francls Alfred Bromfield, Wllllam Bromley, J. Brooke, W. Brothers, M Brown Rt. Hon. J (South Ayrshire) Buchanan G. Burg e s s F G. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W R. Elland) C a me r o n A. G Cape, Thomas Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Charieton. H. C. Chater, Daniel Ciuse, W. S Clyn e s Rt. Hon. John R. Cocks, Frederlc k S eymour C ompton, Joseph Cov e. W l lli a m G Crip p s, 'Sir Sta fford C room-Johnson, R. P Daggar, George Dallas, George Dalton, Hugh Davies, Rhys Joh n (Westhouahton) Day, Harry Dukes, c Duncan Char le s Ede, J ames Chuter Edmund s J. E. Edwa rds, C. (Monmouth, Bedw e ll t y ) Edwards, E. (M orpeth) Egan, W. H. Forgan, Dr. Robert Fre e man, Peter Gard ner, B W. (West Ham, Upton) G eorqe, M egan Ll oyd (Angle sea) Gibblns, Joseph Glbson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossl e y) G ill, T H G o s sllng. A. G. G o uld, F. Gra ham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent.) Gre e nwood Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Gren f e ll, D. R (Glamorga n) G r lfl lths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Grove s Thomas E. Grundy, Thoma s W. H a ll F. (York, W.R. Normanton) Hall, G. H. (M erthyr Tydvll) H a ll, J. H (Whltecha p e l) HOU S E OF COMMONS Ward, Lleut.Col. Sir A. Lambert Wardlaw-MIIne, .J. s. Warrender, Sir Victor Wayland, Sir Wllllam A. Wells, Sydney R. White, H. G. Wllson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U ) Windsor-CIIve, Lleut.-Colonel George Womersley, W. J. NOES. Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Biackburnl Hardle, George D. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon H astlngs, Dr. Somervllle Haycock, A W. Hayday, Arthur H ayes, John Henry Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnleyl Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.l Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield! H erriotts, J. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) H irst, W. (Bradford, South) Hoflman, P. C. Hollins, A. H opkln, Danie l Horra b in, J F Hudson, J a me s H. (Huddersfield. ) lsaacs Georg e Jenkins, Sir William John. Will lam ( Ahondda, Wost) Johnston, Thomas Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. w Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashfor d) Kennedy Rt. H o n. Tho m a s Ke nworthy, Lt.-Co m. Hon. Joseph M Ki nley, J. Kirkwood, D. Knight, Holford Lang, Gordon Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Lath:>'l t: Law, illbert (Bolton) Law, A. ( Ros s e ndale) L awrie, Hug h H a rtle y (Stalybridge) L a wson, John J ames L awlher, W ( Barnard Castle) Le ach, W. Lee F rank (Derby, N.E.) t .ee, Jennle (Lanark, Northern) Lees, J. L e wls. T. (Southampton) Lloyd, C Elll: Loqa n Davld G ilb ert Longbottom, A. W. Long den, F. L unn, Wlllla m Maedona ld. Gordon (Jnee) MacDona ld, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seah a m) McEiwe e A. McEntee, V. L. McKJnlay, A. Maclaren, Andrew Maclean Nell (Glasgow, Govan) McShan e J o h n James M a l one, c. L'Estrange (N'thampton ) Mansn eld, w. M a rcus M M arkham, s F. M arle y J M a r s h all, F red M athers, G eorg e Maxton, J a mes M e l v llle, Sir Jame s M esser, F re d Middleton, G. Mill s J E. Montague, F re d e ric k (U til is a tio n) B ill. 266 Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Worthlngton-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Wright, Brig.-Gen. w. D. (Tavist'k) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton TELLERS FOR THE A YES.Sir George Penny and Captain Euan Wallace. Morgan, Dr. H B Morley, Ralph Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Morlison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Mort, D L. M osley, Lady c. (Stoke-on Trent) Mull, G Muggeridge, H. T Murnin, Hugh Naylor, T. E. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Noel Baker, P. J. Noei-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Oldlield, J. R. Palln, John Henry Paling, Wlllrld Palmer, E T. P a rki nson, John Alien (Wigan) Perry, S. F. P ethick-Lawrence, F. w. PictonTurbervill, Edith Pole, Major D G Potts, John S. Price, M. P. Pybus, Percy John Q u ibell, D J. K R aynes, W. R R lc h ards R. Richar d son, R ( Houghton-le-Sprlng) Rll e y B e n ( D cwsbur y) Ril e y F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Ritson, J. Romerll, H. G. Rosbotham, D. S T. Rowson, Guy Salter, Dr. Alfred Sanders, W S. S awyer, G F Scrymgeour. E. S c urr, John S e xton, S i r James Sha w RI. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Sherwood, G. H Shield, George Wllllam Shi els, Dr. Orummond S h illaker, J F Shinwc ll E. 'Sh ort, Alfred (Wednesbury) Sl mmons, C. J Smit h, Alfred ( Sunderland) Smith, Fra n k (Nuneaton) S mith, H. B Le e s ( Ke ighle y) Smith, R e n ni e ( Penlstone ) Smith, Tom ( Pontelract) Smith, w. R. (Norwic h) Snell, Harry Snowdo n Rt. Hon Philip Sorens e n R. sta mfo r d, Thomas W. Steph e n, C ampbe ll Ste w art, J. (St. Roll ox) S ullivan J. Sutto n J E. Taylor, R A. {Lincoln) T aylor, W. B (Nor folk S.W.) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H (Der by) Thorne W. (Wes t Ham, Plaistow) Thurtle, E r n est Tinke r J ohn J o s eph Toole, Joseph Tout W. J.

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267 Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) BilL 268 Townend, A. E. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles V au g han, David Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah Wellock, Wlllred Wilson, J. (Oidham) Wllson, R,. J. (Jarrow) Viant, S. P. Welsh, James (Paisley) West, F. R. Wlnterton, G. E.(Lelcester,Loughb'gh) Wise, E. F. Walkden, A. G. Westwood, Joseph Young, R. S. (Islington, North) Walker, J. Wallace, H. W. Whltel&y, Wlllrld (Birm., Ladywood) W ilklnson, Ell en C. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. Mr T. Henderson and Mr. Ben Smith. Watklns, F. c. Watson, W. M (Dunfermline) WattsMorgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Wllliams, Davld (Sw ansea, East) Wllllams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Willlams, T. (York, Don Valley) Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I beg to move, in page 19, line 9, to leave out the woTd sections," and to insert instead thereof the word section." The object of this Amendment, and of the consequential Amendments which follow, is to prevent the finance of the demonstration farms from being mixed up in one sum of ,000,000 with the finance of the reclamation and recon ditioning of land. It is a very odd thing in this Bill that, whereas the large-scale farms have a specifi c sum allotted to them, the smallholdings are provided for by their special financial section--though the sum is indefinite-and, similarly, there is a separate seeion for the allot ments, nevertheless the general sum of ,000,000 is allotted to the joint purposes of financing both the demonstration farms and the reclamation of land. We on this side of the House consider that it n.n extremely .bad Treasury practice, and an extremely bad and growing Parlia mentary practice, not to provide a definite sum for each principal object of a Bill in the Bill itself, and we consider that each principal object of tfie Bill should have a separate financial section to itself. By these Amendments we enter a protest against this attempt of the Treasury on this occasion to depart from the general rule which hitherto has guided them, and to lump these two
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269 Agricultuml Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 270 [Dr. Addison.] But we have deliberately put the finance of these two Clauses together, because it may easily happen, and I should think it certainly will happen, that in the course of development and administr;tti.on they will to some extent overlap, and it is unnecessary to draw an artificial line .between them. The right hon. -Gentle man says the time is inopportune to propose spending money on reconditioning or reclamation, or dealing with l'and that is neglected. There I disagree with him enti rely. I think this time of all others is when we should attend to improving our national heritage. It will take a series of years to use the money that is provided under the Bill, but it will im.prove the l'and and provide a c onsiderable amount of very valuable employ ment. Anyhow, to reduce C l ause 3 to Io6,ooo--Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I will not move that Amendment. Dr. ADD I SON: We will say no more .about that, but, for the reasons I have given, it would be unwise ariificially to divide the sum. I t may be that the land that is reclaimed or restored may be taken over for demonstration farms. There is no necessity to separate them, and, in any case, an arbitrary limit ,is entir.ely contrary to the main purpose of the scheme. Colonel ASHLEY: Two points o f con siderable interest have e merged from t he right hon. Gentleman's sp ee c h In the first place, he admits that ,000 is about as much as he thinks one could usefully spend on demonstration farms. That is. after a ll, a very great step in advance, because, at any rate, we know now, as taxpayers, the worst that is going to happe n to the national finances un
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271 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 272 Colonel ASH LEY: That i1s what it comes to. He is going to recondition land, .and he refuses to say he visualises that tJhe land will pay when it is reconditioned. He has refused an Amendment which says, "You shall only recondition if a dividend is to be paid on it." It seems to me a very 'sound business proposition that you not recondition land unless you a.re going to get something of making things better for the masses. It provided a subsidy whic h was altogether .outside the needs of the industry, as is proved by the fact that they could have given the sugar away free and still made a profit. I want the House to realise that we a 're seeking to bring land which is lying u se less into c ultivation, or into proper use. Surely no money could be better spent at any time or anywhere than bringing what is of permanent value into function, because land functioning is the one perm a nent value that we have. Since 1918 we have spent something like ,000,000 on une m p loyment benefit with nothing to show for it. Here is a proposal that means that for what w e are going to sp-end we are going to have at least something. But, quite apart from the value of what may be left, there is that great understanding of trying to do something for the nation in the difficulties under which, like other nations, it is suffering at the moment As far as the beet-sugar industry and its subsidy are concerned, it looks as if nothing is to be left but the debris. Mr. DEPUTY -SPEAKER (Mr. Dunnico): I do not think the question of the beet-sugar subsidy arises here. This Amendment deals with the dividing of the accounts into t wo sections. Mr. HARD lE: The right hon. Gentleman is asking for more meticulous accounts. I am using the illustration give n by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman on the other side. If they think it is right that this should happen here, then w h y did they not fight for a. similar provision in regard to the beet sugar subsidy They did not do so, because the money was going to tiheir! friends. Now that we are trying to provide something from w hich the commo n peop1e are going to get some benefit, there is aaemand for scientific accountancy. I agree w i t h tlie application of scientific principles, but here hon. Members opposite wish to do it in regard to one side and not in regard to the other. If the thing is goo d, it should be applied all round. Intelligent people always do that. The e ffort whic h is being made now i s an earnest e ffort to try to get back that which is permanent in relation to helping unemployment. It is cheap almost at any price when it comes to providing a permanent opportunity for men and women to obtain benefit from t h e cultivation of the land. We know that hon. and r ight hon. Gentleman on the other side do not like it. They wish t o ha-ve conditions as far as the land is concerned, that will enable them to dictate the serf conditions a l ways assoc iated with them. Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: Where 7 Mr. HARD I E: I might be out of order if I traversed in that direction and gave details. Those who ask the question have onl y to lo-ok at the conditio n o f the modern agricultural labourer. This is a paltry sum {)Ompared with the amount of

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273 Agriwltural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill, 274 [.:Mr. Hardie.] the beet-sugar subsidy and it will be of immense value. I !hope that the Minister will meet the Opposition by remaining rigid, and that he will not give way one jot or tittle. In regard to every ques tion which be<:omes as practical as the present question, he is sure to have with him a majority of the intelligent men in the House. Lieut.-Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: The House has been treated to a little quarrel between the back benchers opposite and my right h on. and gallant Friend. I should like to ask the House to consider the following point. The hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Hardie) evidently thinks that the whole of this Bill forms part of tihe policy of the Government for dealing with unem ployment. On the other hand, I under stood, and I think the House generally understood, that the Agricultural Land (Utilisation) Bill was part of the vaunted policy of the Government to deal with agriculture and to show the farmers of tJhe country how to make farming pay. We on this side of the House are en titled to know from the right hon. Gentleman opposite what is the under lying purpose of this Bill. What is the primary object 1 Is the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture trying to do what tihe learned Attorney General failed to do the other day name ly, to kill two birds with one stone ? Mr. HARD I E : The hon. and gallant Gentleman has made a statement with regard to what I have said. May I call his attention to Clause 14, the marginal note of which says : P o:wer of Minister to provide allotments not exceeding one acre for unemployed persons." That is tihe part with which I was dealing. Lieut.-Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE: We are not at the moment dealing with the Clause which m a k es provision for a llot ments for the unemployed. To return to the rather wider is s u e before we go any further it is only right that the House, and, through tihe House, the country should be told quite clearl y what is the fund amental and underlying pur pose of this part of the Bill. Is i t part of the policy of the Government for dealing with unemployment, or is it part of their policy to make farming pay 'I We ought to be told quite definitely. The House will have learnt with some relief, I feel sure, tihat the right hon. Gentleman has in mind a figure of approximately ,000 as the outside limit which he would wish to devote to demonstration farms. I, personally, am extremely relieved that the right hon. Gentleman has not a larger figure than that in his mind, but I should feel a great deal safer, and I am sure tihat we on this side of the House would enjoy a sense Df relief, if we could have that limit actually inserted in the Bill. r the right hon. Gentleman is so clear in his mind as to the sum which he intends to devote for demonstration farms, why does he object so strongly to putting tlhe figure into the Bill? Surely, there can be no objection to such a course. With regard :to the ,500,000 which, he tells us, he intends to devote to the redaiming and re.conditioning of land, I would ask him what is 'tlhe amount of a;creage in thi,s country--I :believe the figure ill in ihis pos:se,SJsion--at the pres.ent time w'hi,ch h a s ever been farcrned with:in recent year's and has now fallen into decay and! i s not being farcrned at all ? To tlhe best my in iformation, the figure is an extra.ordinarily one-. Orut of some 30,000,000 a;cres of land in this country devoted to 'farming, I be liev e that I am right in saying that a mere trifle-----some 75,000 acre's onlyc-lhas fallen out of cultivation. The. right hon. Gentleman shakes his heJad. I invite. him to give the figure i:f he. will be so good, but I wm informed that the figure is ap1prox'i:mately what I have s:tated. If only a fraction of tJhe Iand:-ii::t this country ha-s fallen out or cultivation, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell t.he Hous-e ho:w he can possibly justify the proposa1s in thi's O'lause and devote a sum of not less than ,500,000 to tlhe reda.mation o:f su,ch a <:omparatively small amo-unJt of land. My right hon. and gaHant Friend the M ember for the New Forest (Ootonel .A-S.hley) lhas pointed clearly to the House the futility or Sipending any of this mon ey. Even if you are succ e:sdu l in your redamation work, and you bring bacik a few thousand acres of wheat land in,to condition so t!hat they may he farmed, what, aer aU, have you achieiVed, if the agri'cul tural pro'druce grown on ,suc h land cannot

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275 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (V tilisation) BiU. 276 find a market at a price wlhich makes it worth growing 1 Y e.t at the present time, when we have the country labouring under great financi al stre:ss, the Government a.sk the House to vote a, 18111'!!). of not less tlhan ,5DO,OOO for the redaanati.on of this land. It is a monstrous wction at this time to incur any expenditure. whatever unless it is produ!Ctive expenditure. We have a Government in power
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277 A. gricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 278 [Major Muirhead.] one society. I hope the hon. Member will accept my invitation to join me. The trouble about the reclamation of land seems to be that the Minister of Agriculture is thinking in t erms of a by-gone age. That is rather characteristic of the party opposite. They get cetta.in wellworn old tags inw their head and keep on grinding them out time a.fter time, year after year, generation after generation, regardless of the fact that the conditions which <>riginally 'started them have long since passed awa. y Reclama tion of land, tied cotta.ges, security for t!he farmer a.re things that had their vogue years and years ago, but the 'Party opposite keep on grinding them out, although the oonditions which originally started them have entirely changed. That is the position in regard to the recl ama;tio n of land. The Minister of Agriculture is thinking in terms of an age when the requirements oi the populati<>n pressed very hardly upon the means of ,production. The people were always wanting more food, and one of the problems was the cultiva tion of land t() provide that food. The needs of the people were pressing upon the mea:g_s of production. The 'situation has now completely artered. The needs of pr.oduction are now p!:essing very aeverely upon the means of marketing econated and to !bring it into cultivation, he cause that catered for the needs of the moment. To-day, the question is not that we wa-nt more land cultivated, but that we need to arrange a. SY'stem by which the products
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?.79 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 280 constantly during his opposition to the Amendment. In t.}w first place, he said, in his nicest possible way, Please do no" separate th{'se two they really overlap. You may very eas1ly reclaim some land and afterwards you may need to use it as a demonstration farlll1." Further on, I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that not more than ,000 would be required for the demonstration farm. '['herefore we were left to the obvious conclusion that there would be ;500,000 to be spent on r eclaiming land. That led to the further question, why was this redamation of land to take place, and I understood him to say t.hat one of the main purposes was to give employment to the unelll1ployed. He said that it was rather shocking on our part to oppose the reclamation of land, when there was such serious unemployment. Tha t led to the furthe r question, wha t men were to be employed. Not obviously, men from the agricultural districts, because there is very little unemployment there. They must be men brought from the towns. It seems to me a very absurd thing that w-e should bring men from the tow:ns and -employ them in the reclamation of land which is at pres-ent uneconolll1ic. When we make a proposition to protect the industries and to give men work at their own job hon. Members opposite say that it is the greatest mist. ake, and that it is uneconomic, bnt. they now come forward and make a proposition to spend large sulll1s of money on the reclamation of absolutely nneronomic land. It is a very ridiculous proposal, and I hope that the House will not accept it. f s Division No. 140.] Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife. West) Adamson, w. M. (Staff., Cannock) Addlson, Rt. Hon. Dr. Chrlstopher Altchi s on, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (HIIIsbro') Alpass, J. H. Angell, Sir Norman Arnott, John Aske, Sir Robert Attlee, Clement Richard Ayles. Waiter Saker, John (Wolverhampton, Bliston) 8aldwln, Ollver ( Dudley) Barnes, Alfred John Barr, J a mes Satey, Joseph Bellamy, Albert 11ennett, Sir E. N (Cardiff, Central) Bennett, Wllliam (Battersea, South) Benson, G. Bllndell, James Bond field, Rt. Hon. M argaret Bower man, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Broad, Francis Allred Srockw a y, A. F enner Bromfleld, Wllllam Bromley, J. Brooke, W. Brothers, M. Brown, Ernes! (Leith) Brown, Rt Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Buchanan, G. Burgess, F. G. 11urgln, Dr. E. L. Buxton, c R (Yorks. W R. Elland) Calne, Derwent Hall ()ameron, A. G. Cape Thomas Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W .) Charleton, H. c. Chater, Daniel Cl use. W. S Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Cocks, Frederlck Seymour Compton, Joseph Cove, Wllllam G. Crlpps, 'Sir Stafford Daggar, George D a llas, George No. 55 Question put, That the word sec tions' stand part of the Bill." The House No-es, 190. divided: Ayes, 269; AYES. Dalton Hugh Davlcs, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Day, Harry Dudgeon, Major c R. Dukes, C. Ede James Chuter Edmunds, J. E. Edwards, C (Monmouth, Bedwellly) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Egan, W. H. Elmley, Viscount Foot, lsaac Freeman, Peter Gardner, B. W (West Ham. Upton) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Glbblns, Joseph Glbson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley) Gill, T. H. Gillett, George M. Glassey, A. E. Gossling, A. G. Gould, F. Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent ) Granvllle, E. Gray, M liner Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Grlmth, F. Klngsley (Middleabro' W.) Grlniths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Groves, Thomas E. Grundy, Thomas W Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Hall, G H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Hall, J. H (Whltechapel) Hall, Capt. W. G. {Portsmouth C.) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Biackburn) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Hardie, George D. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Hastings, Dr. Somer.vllle Haycock, A. W. H a yday, Arthur Henderson, Rt. Hon. A (Burnley) Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enneld) H errlotts, J. Hll'tlt, G. H. (York "w.R. Wentworth) H lrst, W. (Bradford, South) [6.10 p.m. Hoffman, P. C Hollins, A. Hopkln, Daniel HoreBellsha, Leslle Horrabin, J F. Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Hunter, Dr. Joseph fsaacs, George Jenkins, Sir Willlam John, Will lam {Rhondda, West) Johnston, Thomas Jonea. Morgan (Caerphilly) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. w. Jowitl, Sir W. A. (Preston) Kedward, R. M (Kent, Ashford) Kennedy Rt. Hon. Thomas Kenworthy Lt. Com. Hon. Joseph M. Klnley, J. Klrkwood, 0. Knight, Hollord Lang, Gordon Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Lathan, G. Law, Albert (Bolton) Law, A. ( Rossend a le) Lawrle. Hug h Hartley (Stalybrldge) Lawth e r, w. (Barnard Castle) Leach, W. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Lee, Jennle (Lanark, Northern) Lees, J. Lewis, T. {Southampton) Lloyd, C. Ellls Logan, Davld Gilbert Longbottom, A W. Longden, F. Lunn, Wllllam Macdonald, Gordon (I nee) MacDonald, RI. Hon.). R. (Seaham) McEiwee, A. McEntee, V. L. McKlnlay, A. Maciean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govall) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. McShane, John James Malone. C. L'Eatrange (N'thampton) Mansfleld, w. Marcus, M. D2

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281 Agricultural Land Markham, s. F. Marley, J. M arshall, Fred M at hers, George M at!ers, L. W. Melviile, Sir James Messer, Fred Mills. J. E. Mllner, Major J M ontag ue, F rederick Morgan, Dr. H. E. Morley, Ralph Morris, Rhys Hopklns Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Morrison, Robert C. (Toltenham, N.) Mort, D. L. Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Muff, G. Muggeridge, H. T. Murnln, Hugh Naylor. T. E. Newman, Sir R. H. s. D. L. (Exeter) Noel Baker, P. J. Noel Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Oldfield, J. R. Ollver, P. M. (Man., Biacldey) Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Palin, John Henry Paling, Wlllrid Palme r E. T. Perry, S. F. Peters, Dr. Sidney John Pet hickLawrence, F. W. Plcton-Turberviil, Edith Pole, Major D. G. Polts, John S. Price, M P. Pybus, Percy John Quibell D F. K. Ramsay T. B Wllson Aciand-Troyte, Lieut Colonel. Aibery, lrvlng Jamea Alien, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.J Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C M. S Ashley Lt. -Col Rt. Hon. Willrid W. Aslor, M&j. Hon. John J.(Ke nt, Dover) Atholl, Duchess of Atkin son c. Ba iliieHamilton Hon Charles W. Baldwln, Rt. Hon Stanley (Bewdley) Balfour, Capta in H. H (I. of Thanet) Bainlel, Lord Beaumont, M. W Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Betterton S i r Hen r y B. Bevan, S. J. ( Holborn) Birchall Ma jor Sir J ohn Dea rman Bird, Ernest Roy Boothby, R. J. G. Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansillart Bowyer, C aptain Sir Gcorge E W. Boyce, Leslie Bracken, B. Brass. Captain Sir WIIHam Brlsco e, Richard George Brown Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Br o wn, Brlg.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Buchan, John Buchan-H ep burn, P G. T Butler, R. A. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Campbell, E T. carver, M ajor W. H Ca s tle Stewart, Earl of Cautley, Sir Henry S Cay zer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Cayzer, M aj.Sir Herb!. R. (Prtsmth,S. ) Caza let, Captain VIctor A Chamberlain, Rt. H n .Sir J.A.(Birm., W .) HOUSE OF COMMONS Rathbone, Eleanor Raynes, W. R. Richards, R. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Riiey, Ben (Dewsbury) Rlley F. F. (StocktononTIII) Ritson, J. Romerll, H G. Rosbotham, D S. T Rothschild, J. de Rowson. Guy Salter, Dr. Alfred Samu&l, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Sanders, W. s. Sawyer, G. F. Scott, James Scrymgeour, E. Scurr, John Se xton, Sir James Shakespeare, G o lfrey H Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Shepherd, Arthur Lewis Sherwood, G. H. Shield George William Shlels, Dr. Drummond Shillaker, J. F. Shlnwell, E Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Simmons, C. J. Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness ) Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Smith, Ben ( Bermond se y, Rotherlilthe) Smith Frank (Nuneaton) Smith. Rennie (Penlstone) Smith Tom (Pontefract) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Snell, Harry Snowde n Rt. Hon. Phi lip Sorensen, R. Stamlord, Thomas W. Stephen, Campbell NO E S Chapman. Sir S. Christle, J. A. Clydesdale, Marquess of Cobb, S i r Cyril Cockerill Brig -General S ir George Cohen, M ajar J. Brunei Colman, N C. D Colville, M a j o r D J. Courtauld, Major J. s. Courlhop e, Colonel Sir G. L. Cr a nborne, Viscount Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Crcft Brigadier-General Sir H. Croo.kshank, Cpt H.( Lindsey ,Gainsbro) Croom-Johnson, R. P. Culverwell, C T. (Bristol, West) Cunilfle-Lister Rt. Hon. Sir Phllip D a lkeith, E a rl of Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.Col. Sir Godlrey Davies, Maj. G e o. F (Somerset Ye o\iii ) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington S ) Dawson Sir Phiiip Di xon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Duckworth, G. A. V. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Eden, Captain Anthony Edmondson, Major A. J. Elllot, Major Waiter E. England, Colonel A. Ersklne, Lord (Som e rs e t,Weston-sM ) Ev erard, W. Llndsay Faile, Sir Bertram G Ferguson, Sir John Fermoy, Lord F l elden, E. B. F lso n F. G Clave r lng Ford Sir P. J. Frem a ntle Lleut.Colonel F r'lncis E. Galbraith, J F. w. Gault, Lleut.-Col. A. Hamilton (Utilisation) Bill. Stewart, J. (St. Roilox) Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Sullivan, J. Sutton, J. E. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) 28Z Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Thorne, W. (West Ham. Plaiatow} Thurtle, Ernes! Tinker, John Joseph Toole, Joseph Tout, W. J. Townend, A. E. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Vaug han, David Viant, S. P. Walkden, A. G. Walker, J. Wall ace, H W Watkins, F. C Watson, W M. (Dunfermline) Watts-Morgan, Lt.Col. D. (Rhonddap Wellock, Wilfred Welsh. James (Paisley) West, F. R. Westwood, Joseph White, H. G. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm. Ladywood) W i lklnson Eilen C Wilil ams, David (Swanse a East) Wlill a ms, Dr. J H. (Lianelly) Willi a ms, T (YoJk, Don Valley) Wllson, C. H. (Sheffield, Atterclille) Wiison, J. (Oidham) Wllson, R. J. (Jarrow) Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) Wise, E. F. Wood, Major Me l
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283 A.gricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 284. Mlllar, J. D. Mltcheii-Thomson, RI. Hon. Sir W. Monscll, Eyres, Corn Rt. Hon. Sir B. Moore, Sir Newton J (Richmond) Moore, Lieut Colonel T. C. ll. (Ayr) Morrison, W. s. (Glos., Cirencester) Mulrhead, A. J. RoiS, Major Ronald D. RugglesBrlse, Lieut.-Coionel E. A. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Tlnne, J. A. Tllchlield, Major the Marquess of Todd, Capt. A. J. Train, J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Turton, Robert Hugh Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Phllip A G. D. Savery, S. S. Ward, Lieut.-Col Sir A. Lambert Wardlaw-MIIne, i. S. Newton, Sir D G C (Cambridge) Nicholson Col. Rt. Hn.W. G.(Ptrsf'ld) O'Nelll, Sir fl. 'Sh e pperson, Sir Ern est Whlttome Simm s Ma jo r -Gen e r a l J. W"rrender, Sir V Ictor Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Peakc, Capt. Osbert Sinciair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfast) Skelton, A. N W ayland, Sir William A. Wells, Sydne y R. Penny, Sir George Percy, Lord Eustace {Hastings) Peto, Sir Basll E. (Devon, Barnstaple} Power, Sir John Cecll Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) "Smith, R.W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Smith Carington, Neviiie W. Smithers, Waldron Will lams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Wiison, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) Windsor-Ciive, Lic ut.-Colonel George Winterton, Rt. Hon Earl Some r s et, Thomas Withers, Sir John James Pownall, Sir Assheton Some rv ille, A. A. (Windsor) Womersley, W. J Purbrick, R Ramsboth a m, H Southby, Commander A. R J. SoenderCiay, C o l o nel H. Wood, Rt. Hon. S i r K l ngsley Wright, Brig .G e n. W D. (Tavlst'k) Young Rt. Hon. Sir Hllton R a wson 'Sir Cooper Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Reid David D (County Down) Rentoul. Sir Gervais S Reynolds, Col. Sir James Roberts, Sir Samue l ( Ecclesall) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Renneli Stanlev, M aj. Hon. 0. (W'morland) Steei -Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur Stuart. Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.-Sir Frederick Thomson and Captain Euan Wallace. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Colonel ASHLEY: I beg t o mov e, "ion page 1 9, line 2 4, after the woTd s ums," to insert the words not exceeding five million pou n d s i n any one year." This Amendment dea.Is with p aragraph (d). The Sub-section says that the 'Trea.sur y m a y, subj1e'Ct to such conditions as they m a y determine, issu e out o f t h e Oons{)lida,bed Fund of the United K:ingdoiiii. s u c h sums as may be requir e d by the Minister for the purchase of l and or t!he erection of 1building s for the prov.ision of smallhol'din g s and f o r suc h other in connection with the provision o f s m a ll h oldings as may be agreed b y the Treasury and the Minister to be c apital expendi ture." The purpos e of t h e Amendment i s to erusure tha. t ,suc h expenditu v e s h a ll not exceed ,000,000 in any on e y-ear I wish to limit t h e amount of IIII.Oney the Minis ter may use in the p r{)v i sion o f s mall holdings A s the 01a.use stands, there i s n o limit at all, the only .pe r son t o d ec i d e t h e amoun. t i s the Ch ancello r of the Ex cheque r w h o i s to t ell the M iniste r of Agriculture what money lr e may have. I object 1to g ivin g this bla-nk cheque t o the Ohance]or of the E xchequer A lim i t sh{)uld be i nserte d in the B il l. N o on e c a n cay that ,000,000 i s n o t a c o n s i d e r a b l e amount to spend in any one. year In the othe r -paragraph s iin this Sub-sec tion a limi t is :insel' te d In t h e cas e of the Agric u ltural Land Oorp o ra;tion a s u m of ,000,00 0 is f bced, whiLe i n para. graph (b) a limit {)f ,000,000 is o8.Jld in paragrap h (c) there is a limit of 00,000 I c annot see why t h e Minister has delibera. t ely-it must 'have b een done d e lib e rately-o iiilitted from the pa.ragr aph d 1 e aling w i t h sma llho l dings any financial limi t a t a:ll a,nd sh{)ul.d si m p l y s a y that he wants to .spend what h e can induce the T'r e a smy to allow him to spend. In these days of financi a l stringency we s hould be careful in g iving a blank c hequ-e, how ever desirable the o bject may be. A s to wheth e r the amount of ,000,000 is reas o n able I think at i s, having regard to the obje'Cts for whi .ch the money is required, nam'ely; the provisio n of .small h o ldin g s and the m oney whic h the. Ministe r i s to pro-v i d e for t hose p eop l e who g e t sm a llho lding. s, which i s n{)t t{) exceed in the agg regate or move. tha n 3 0 shillings in any one w e ek. I am a l mo s t 1a1 s hamed to put i n s u c h a va.st s u m, .an.d I think I am 1erring o n the s ide. of gener osi t y. The real reason for my m{)ving the Amendment i s not, t o tie t h e M i n i ster down to ,000,000 or to ,000,000, but to get soiiii.e s um inserte d i n t his C l a u se H i n a ll t h e p r e vi o u s pro vis i ons a d e fini t e .sum has b e en ins erted, I do not see w h y we shoul d not ins e rt a cfie,fin i t e figure in the p r ovisi o n whic h deals with smallho ldin g s. The CHANCELLOR of t h e DUCHY of LANCASTER (Mr. Attlee) : I a g r e e w ith t h e righ t hon. and gallant M e mber for the N ew Forest ( G o l{)n e l A s hley ) t h a t the amount o f ,000,000 is not at all a n ungen e r o us figure but the objectio n to fixin g any amount at a ll is that it sets u p some sort of idea t hat w e are goin g to spend t h e same amount in each s ucc essiv e y ear. T h e point i s that we

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285 Ag ricultmal Land HOUSE OF COMl\WNS (Utilisation) Bill. 286 [Mr. Attlee.] want to get the development of smallholdings well on the way, and it may develop much more rapidly in one year than in another. There is no purpose served by putting a figure like this into the Bill. There is parliairnentary control. We have to extract the money from the Chancellor .of the Exchequer. Parliament may give a blank cheque, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to get it cashed somehow or another, and I think the right hon. and gallant Member will agree that my right hon. Friend is not always ready to cash a cheque. Apart from that, Parlia.ment will be able to exercise its voice in debate every year when the Estimates are voted. I think it much better to keep the matter flexible and to leave the power in the hands of this House rather than put in a fixed annual sum. Colonel A.SHLEY: The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has not answered my question, why if you put in sums in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) you do not put in a sum in paragraph (d) 7 Mr. A,TTLEE It is because we consider this is rather a different subject matter. The smallholdings policy may develop greatly in a particular year, we cannot say to what size it will grow. There is a distinct different between the matters dealt with in this Clause. Sir BAiSII L PETO : The answer of the Chancellor of the Duchy has not satisfied my objections to giving this unlimited power of expenditure to the Government under this Clause. So far we have had no indication whatever as to the expendi ture which the Government contemplate in any one year, or altogether, except that in the financial memorandum to t h e Bill we find t hat the expenditur e will depend on the uns atisfied demand, but it is estimated that on an av erage the capital oost of every 1,000 holdin gs may be .100 000." It may be more or less, but as to how many thousands of people or how many millions of pounds of expenditure, tbe House has had not the slightest idea. We have had no repl y to the Ame ndm ent except the statement of the 'Chancellor of the Duchy, that if the House abandons its control over finance there is always the Clhancellor of the E xchequer. Mr. A TT LEE : I said precisely the opposite. I said that besides the Chancellar of the Exchequer the House of Gammons will keep control over finance. Sir B. PETO: I apologise if I have misrepresented the hon. Gentleman, but we are trying at this moment to keep. control of finance to the House of Commons, and if we give an absolutely blank cheque and allow this Bill to be con .ducted by Addison, Attlee and Oompany without the slightest check, I do not know where we can look for any estimate of the expenditure whi c h the country may be incurring unless we look to the s peech of the ri.ght hon. Member for O.arnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George} on the Second Reading of t.he Bill. He warmly commended the Bill. At the very outset of his speech he said that it was a Measure: after my own heart and towards the end he said : It is a real, bold, strong Bill with t h e cash 1behind it." What is the amount behind the small holdings policy J do not know, unless one can gather it from the observations. of the right h on. Member for Carnarvon Borou g hs. He said that if we raised a loan of ,000,000 for reclamation of land it would cost the country ,000,000 a year, because we should prDbably lose 2-! per cent. That is quite a small matter. He contemplated a loan of ,000,000. But he went on to say: Y.ou have a debt of 000,000,000 for destruction. Th e Frenc h spent from 000,000,000 to ,000,000,000 in repairing: devastation of the War. Oan.not we spend ,000,000 on ou r .. countryside? ''-[OFFICIAL REPOR,T, 18th November 1930; col. 310 Vol. 245.] That clearly show s tha t the right hon. Gentleman, who is believed to be really the godfather of this Bill, h a d very big: ideas in his mind, when he was blessing the Bill at its christening, as to what the Governm ent wpre going to spend. If we cannot be told how much the Govern ment are going to spend cannot we at least be told whether, in dealing with this huge figure of ,100,000 for 1 000 smallholders, they are to be financed by a loan or in the normal way. Last Thursday this questi o n was raised on the Adjournment, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer then said to the House : The policy of the Government, as I have repeatedly state d and r .s I stated on the last ocoasion yeste rday, i s tha t we are prepared to foster and encourage eve r y sound.

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287 Agric uUural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 288 and e conomic scheme of .national develop ment, 'hut sucih schemes will be financed as they have been financed in the past. l'here is no idea-it is almost a humiliation to have to say it-of putting forward a spectacular national development loan. Any s cheme will have to be, first of all, very carefully co.nsidered and thoroughly sifted, and if the conclu s ion is reached that it :would be to the national advantage that such a scheme should be promoted, then the finance of the scheme will be found in the ordinary REPORT, 5th February, 1931; cols. 2256-7, Vol. 247.] I want to know whether this scheme for placing unemployed people by the thousand on the land is one of tJhe schemes that have been carefully sifted," and whether it is to ibe financed in the ordinary way out of current expenditure or in the way that the right hon Member for Carnarvon Boroughs had clearly in his mind, that is, by a spectacular loan. Clearly a very spectacular loan would be .required if the Government contemplated putting 100,000 people on >smalllb.oldingrs. It would be real .Oarnarvon finance We are entitled to a good deal more information as to the scope of the Government's proposals. I wonder why they have been so ohstinate in refusing t.o give us any indication of how many thousands of people they pro .pose to put on the land and how many millions this scheme will cost the country. We have been refused that information in Committee and again to-day. I cannot he,l:p thinking that if tJhey named any figure, it would be 'such a small figure compared with the 2,500,000 unemployed, that the Bill w ould seem almost ridicu lous as a means of dealing with the unemployment problem. I beg the Minister to 'let us know the average number of people that he expects to put on the land in a yea.r. I know that the number oonnot be exactly the same every year. But is tJhe average number to be 1,000 a year costing ,000,000, or 10,000 costing ,000,"000, or 50,000 COSting ,000,000 7 Any of those figures would make a very small inroad on the total of unemployed. Surely we are entitled to know whethe r the money is to be raised in the ordinary way out o.f annual revenue, or whether it is to be left as a debt to posterity. Mr. C. Wl L.LIAMS: The hon. Baronet seems to think that the Govrenment may have some idea in their minds. Those of us who have listened to tJhe Government speeches on this and every other subject will know that the Government rarely have any idea in their minds, and that on this particular occa sion the Government mind is even more barren than usual. That is saying a very grea.t deal. All that the Chancellor of the Duclhy said was that this particular Clause was for; the purpose of an emergellcy. E.ven the Chancellor of the Duchy, who has a comparatively limited knowledge of what is going on to-day, must know tha. t the really great national emergency is not the emergency of trying to produce more food, but of trying to save the taxpayer's money above everytlhing el se We have been told that there are Treasury safeguards and all that sort of thing, hut we have .a Chancellor of the Exchequer who ha.s very little control of the Government-never has there been one with less. The only piece of information we have had in tlb.e Debates here and in Committee, a.s to what the Government imagined they were going to do, was the quotation by the Minister of a certain county called Hampshire where, in the course of four yea.rs, four of these >smallholdings had been provided. I believe Ha,mpshire is a most estimable county and I have no doubt that the Small Holdings Act is administered there in an excellent way, and tJhat everything pos sible J,s done to get people to go on the land. Four smallholdings in four years, in probably one of the best county council systems in the country That w.a s all that the Minister could show as to the demand or these smaHhoidings. Coming to the Amendment, why in the world my right hon. Friend wants to give the Government ,000,000 I do not know. Even the extravagant Minister of Agriculture, when the same Amendment was proposed in Committee, said that the sum was very generous. If he thinks it generous, the House may rest assured that the proposal is not merely generous, but a gross extrava gance. In other words, the Minister himself does not for one minute expect to use anything near that sum. Personally I should have moved that the sum be ,000. That would be quite ample for the present Administration. I would not willingly entrust them with for this or any other purpose. I do not suppose that I can move an Amendment to the Amendment. If it were possible, I would like to omit the words "million pounds." I believe the Bill will result in complete waste and that we shall not

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Agricultu-ral Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Uttlisation) B'ill. :!90 [':l}ir. Williams.] get any value or return for this money. It is a step in the right direction to set up a limit on this occasion, but the limit is far too high. Although I suppose I shall support the Amendment in the Lobby, because one cannot look a gift horse in the fact too closely, I do so under the strongest protest. The Amendment shows the type of mind we have all too prevalent ,in the House on many sides-the type of mind of Minister and ex-Minister who cannot realise that there is only one essential thing, and that that is to cut down expenditure on every occasion to absolute rock bottom. Mr. CROOM-JOHNSON: I want to refer to one point which, though it may be regarded by the Chancellor of the Duchy as a small point, is to me a point of the utmost importa nce. The hon. Gentleman has told us that there is no need for any sum to be mentioned here because there are two safeguards, first, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and second, Parliamentary control. I have not been long in the House, but in common with most new M embers I have watched its proceedings witli: close a.ttention for a number of years, and I have watched in particular to find what form of Parliamentary control exists over the expenditure of money by the Government of the day. The situation is this : The 'control of this House over expenditure ,has diminishe d and is .and ought to be very largely Increased. Whenever any Amendment is moved which has. the effect of keeping expenditure within due limits, some r eason or other, differing from Amendment to Amendment, is given as an answer. The ordinary Private Member of the House who is desirous of doing his duty at a moment when there is a cry,ing demand in all parts of the com munity for economy in our public life, finds himself without any influence, without any sort of control over national expenditure. To give an answer of the sort we have heard. to an Amendment which suggests the wildly extravagant sum of ,000,000 as the amount t.o be spent, is really to talk in a world of complete unreality. Much as I dislike the figure in the Amendment, I shall be forced to vote for it because it seems to me tha-t tlie 'time has come when all parties, if they are going to do anything with regard to expenditure, can do it only by attempting to clip the wings of Ministers, no matter to what party they belong. Sir ERN EST SHEPPERSON: I, for the same reasons as those given by previous speakers from this side, do not accept as a sufficient security against extravagance, the two safeguards mentioned by the Minister. The pnrpnse of these smallholdings is to try to r emedy unemployment, to some extent, as the hon. Member for l3arw;taple (Sn B. Peto) has mentioned, 1,000 unemployed men from the industrial centres will cost ,000,000. Without some restriction of the kind proposed there seems to be no limit to the number of unemployed men who can apply and be accepted for smallholdings. When we have the unemployment figures going up by from 10,000 to 20,000 a week, it will ?e seen that to get even one week's mcrease of unemployed men on to the land would represent a cost of ,000,000 or mo1e. If we have not a limit of this kind what is to be the total cost to the Exchequer? Under Clause 7, as amended, this provision is also available for agricultural workers. No doubt there will be a very great demand from unemployed men in the towns, if they find that they ca:n go down to the country and that they will be. offered a and a holding and, duectly or mduectly, a sum ci ,000. When they go there they Will have no mone y of their own but they will take on these smallholdings and after a year or so they will probably lose whatever money has been given to them. They will be no worse off in the end-they will have nothing in the end, but then, they had nothing in the beginning. I anticipate that there '\lill be a large number of applicants from the towns, anxious to try country life and to have a comfortable year or two, at the expense of the State. In the interests of the taxpayer I support the Amendment. Question put, That those words be there inserted in the Bill." The Hot;se p1oceeded to a Division Sir WILLIAM LANE MITCHELL (seated and col'ered) : On a point of Order. Some of us have be e n unable to get through the press of Members at the

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2\H AgricuUural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 292 entrance to the Division Lobby in order to vote. At least a dozen Members are waiting to g e t in now, and the doors have been locked. Mr. SPEAKER: I cannot alter the time allowed for a Division. Division No. 141.] AclandTroyte, Lieut.Colonel. Alnsworth, Lleut.Col. Charles Albery, lrvlng Jamea Alien, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. s. Aahley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. Dover) Atholl, Duchess of Atklnson, c. Balllle-Hamllton, Hon. Charles W. Baldwln, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Ballour, George (Hampstead) Ballour, Captain H. H. (1. of Thanet) Balnlel, Lord Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon Betterton, Sir Henry B. Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Blrchall, Major Sir John Dearman Bird, Ernest Roy Boothby, R J. G. Bourne, C aptain Robert Croft Bowater, C ol. Sir T. Vanslttart Boyce, Leslle Bracken, B. Brass, Captain Sir William Briscoe, Richard George Brown, Col. D. c. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Brown, Brlg.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y) Buchan, John Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Bullock, C aptain M afcolm Butler, R. A. Cadoga n, Major Hon. Edward Campbell, E. T. Carver, Major W. H. Castle Stewart, Earl ol Cautley, Sir Henry S. Cl\yzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Cayzer, MaJ. Sir Herb!. R (Prtsmth,S.) C hamberlain, Rt.Hn.S. Ir J .A.(Birm., W J Chapman, Sir S Chrlstle, J. A Clydesdale, Marquess of Cobb, Sir Cyril Cockerill, Brig.General Sir George Cohen, M ajor J. Brunei Colman, N. C. D. Colville, Major D. J. Courtauid, Major J. S Courthope, Colonel S i r G L. Cranborne, VIscount crichton-Stuart, Lord c. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Crooks hank, Capt. H, C. Croom-Johnso n R. P Culverweil, C. T. (Bristol, West) Cunllffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Phillp Dalkeith. Earl of Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Davles. Maj. G eo. F .(Somerset, Yeovll) Dawson, Sir Phillp Adamson, Rt. Hon. W (File West I Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Addlson, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. Alex a nder, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Alpass, J. H. Angel!, Sir Norman Arnott, John 'Aske, Sir Robert Attiee, Clement Richard Ayles, W alter The House divided: Ayes, 180; Noes, 273. A. YES. Dlxon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Duckworth, G. A. V. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Eden, Captain Anthony Edmondson, Major A. J. Elliot, Major Waiter E. England, Colonel A. Ersklne, Lord (Somerset,Weston-sM.) Everard, W,. Llndsay Falle, Sir Bertram G. Fcrguson, Si John F lelden, E. B. Flson, F. G. Claverlng Ford, Sir P. J. Forestler-Walker, Sir L. Galbraith, J. F. W. Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Glyn, Major R. G. c. Gower, Sir Robert Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Grenfell, Edwar d c. (City of London) Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Guinness, Rt. Hon. VJalier E Hanbury, C. Hnnnon, Patrick Joseph Henry Harvey, Major s. E. (Devon, Totnes) Haslam, Henry C. Heneagc, Lleut.-Colonel Arthur P. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Wailer Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K Hudson, Capt. A U. M. (Hackney, N.) Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Hutchison, Maj.-Gcn. Sir R. lveagh, Countess of Jones, S i r G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Klndersley, Major G. M. Knox, Sir Allred Lamb, Sir J. Q. L ambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Little, Sir Ernes! G r a ham Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrcy Lymlngton, VIscount McConnell, Sir Joseph M acqulsten, F. A. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Margesson, Captain H. D. Meller, R. J. M errlman, Sir F. Boyd Millar, J. D. Mitcheii-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Monse il Eyres, Corn. Rt. Hon. Sir_ B Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmo no) Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Muirhead. A J. Newton, ShD G. C. NOES. Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bllston) Baldwln, Oliv e r (Dudlcy) Barnes, Alfred John Barr, James Baley, Joseph Bellamy, Albert Benne!!, Sir E N. (Cardiff, Central) Benne!!, Wllllam (Battesea, South) Benson, G. Bllndell, James Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret [6.49 p.m. Nlcholson, Col. RI. 1-ln. W. G.(Ptrsf'ld) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. Wllllam Peake, Capt. Osbert Penny, Sir George Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Pownall, Sir Assheton Ramsbotham, H Rawson, Sir Cooper Reld, David D (County Down) Rentoul, Sir Gervais s Reynolds, Col. Sir Jamcs Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclcsall) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Ruggles-Brlse, Licut.-Colonel E. A. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Salmon, Major I Samuel, A. M. (Surrey. Farnham) Sandeman, Sir N Stewart Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A G. D Sa very, S. S. Shepperson, Sir Ernes! Whittome Slmms, M ajor-General J. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's u., Bellst.) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Klnc'dine, C.) Smlth-Carlngton, Nevllle W. Smithers, Waldaon Somerset, Thomas Somervllle, A. A. (Windsor) Somerville, D. G. (WIIIesden, East) Spender-Clay, Colonel H. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Stanley, M a j Hon. 0. (W'morland) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Tinne, J. A. Tltchfield, Major the Marques of Train, J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Turton, Robcrt Hugh Wallace, Capt. D. E. ( Hornsey) Ward, Li eut.-C ol. Si r P Lambert Warrende r Sir VIctor Wayland, Sir Wllliam A Wells, Sydney R. Willlams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) Wllson, G. H. A (Cambridge U.) Wlndsor-CIIve, Lleut.Coloncl G eorge Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Wlthe Sir John J a mes Womersley, W. J. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley Worthington-Evans, Rt. Kon. Sir L. Wrlght, Brlg.-Gen. W. D. (Tavlst'k) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilto n TELLERS FOR THE A YES.-Sir Frederic k Thomson and Captain Sir Georg e Bowyer. IU. Hon. Charles VV. Broad, Francis Alfred Brockway, A. Fcnner Bromlield, Willia m Bromley, J. Brooke, w. Brothers, M. Brown. Er nest (Leith) Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, Weal) Buchanan, G.

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293 Agri cultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS Burgess, F. G Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W R. Elland) Jowltt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Calne, Derwent HallKennedy Rt. Hon. Thomas Cameron. A. G. Kenworthy, Lt.Com. Hon. Joseph M Cape, Thomas Klnley, J Carter, w. (St. Pancras, S W.) Klrkwood, D. Charleton, H. C. Knight, Hollord Chater, Daniel Lang, Gordon Clarke, J. S. Lansbury Rt. Hon. George Close, W. s. a..athan, G. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Law, Albert (Bolton) Cocks, Frederlck Seymour Law, A. (Rossendale) Compton, Joseph Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybrldge) Cove, Wllllam G. Lawson, John Jamee Cripps, Sir Stafford Lawther w (Barnard Castle) Daggar, George Leach, w. Dallas, George Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E ) Dalton, Hugh Lee, Jennle (Lanark, Northern) Davles, E C. (Montgomery) Lees, J. Davles, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lewls T (Southampton) Day, Harry Lloyd, c. Ellls Dudgeon, Major C. R. Logan, Davld Gilbert Dukes, C. Longbottom, A. W. Ede, James Chuter Long den, F. Edmunds, J. E. Lunn Wllliam Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Maedonald, Gordon (lnce} Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Macoonald, Rt Hon. J R (Seaham) Egan, W. H. McEntee, V. L. Elmley, VIscount McKinlay, A. Foot, lsaac MacLaren, Andrew Forgan, Dr. Robert Maclean, Sir Dona ld (Cornwall, N.) Freeman, Peter Maclean, Nell (Glasgow. Govan) Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Jamll 1. George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) McShane, John James Gibblns Joseph Malone c. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Glbson H. M (Lancs. Mouley) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Gill, T. H. Mansfleld, W. Glllett, George M. Marcus, M. Glassey A. E. Markham s F Gossling A. G Marley, J Gould, F. Marshal!, Fred Graham, D. M (Lanark, Hamilton) Mathers, George Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edln., Cent ) Matters, L. W. Granv l lle E Maxton, James Gray, Mllner Melvllle, Sir James Greenwood, Rt Hon A (Colne) Messer Fred Grenfell D. R (Glamorgan) Mills, J. E Grlfflth, F. Klngsley (Middlesbro' W.) Milner Major J. Grlffiths, T. (Monmouth Pontypool) Montague, Frederlck Groves. Thomas E. Morq a n Dr H B. Grundy, Thomas W. Morlcy, Ralph Hall, F. (York, W R., Normanton) Morris, Rhys Hopklns Hall, G. H (Merthyr Tydvll) Morrls-Jones, Dr. J H (Denblgh) Hall, J H (Whltechapel) Morrlson, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Hall, C a pt W P. (Portsmouth, C ) Mort, D. L. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Biackburn) Mosley, Lady c (Stoke-on.Trent) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwlc k) Hard le, George D Muff, G. Hartshorn, At. Hon Vernon MuqqeridQe, H T. Has\lngs, Dr. Somervllle Murnln, Hugh Haycock, A W. Naylor T E Hayday, Arthur Newman, Sir R. H. S 0. L (Exeter) Henderson Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Noel Baker, P J Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff S.J Noei-Buxton, Baroness ( Norfolk N.) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Oldfleld. J R Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Ollver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Herrlotts, J Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Hlrst, G H. (York W R. Wentworth) Palln, John Henry Hlrst, W. (Bradford, South) Palmer. E. T. Hoffman, P. C Parkl nson, John Alien (Wigan) Holllns, A Perry, s. F. Hopkln Daniel Peters. Dr. Sldney John Hore-Bellsha, Leslle Pethlck Lawrence, F. W Horr a hln, J F P i cton-Turbervill, Edlth Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Pole Major D G. Hunter, Dr. Joseph Potts, John s. lsaacs, George Pri ce M. P Jenkins, Sir Willlam Pybus Percy John John, Wllllam (Rhondda, Weat) Qulbell D J K Johnston, Thomas Ramsav. T. B. Wlleon Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Rathbone, Eleanor (Ut i l i sat i on) Bill. Raynes, W. R. Rlchards R. Rlchardson, R. (Hought on-le-Spring t Rlley, Ben (Dewsbury) Rlley, F. F. (Stockton-on Tees) Rltson, J Romerll, H. G. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Rothschild, J. de Rowson, Guy Salter, Dr Alfred Samuel Rt Hon. Sir H (Darwen) Sanders, W. I. Sawyer, G F Scott, J ames Scrymgeour, E. Scurr, John Sexton, Sir James Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Shepherd Arthur Lewls Sherwood, G. H. Sh i eld George Wllllam Shlels Or Orummond Shlllaker, J. F Shinwell E. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) S l mmons C. J. Slnclalr S i r A. (Caithness) Sltch, Charles H Smith, 1\lfred (Sunderland) Smith, Ben (Bermondsey Rotherhlthe) Smith. Frank (Nuneaton) Smith, Rennie ( Penlstone) Smith Tom (Pontefract) Smith, w R. (Norwich) Snell, Harry Snowden, Rt. Hon. Phlllp Sorensen, R. Stamtord, Thomas W. Stephen, Campbelf Stewart, J. (St. Roll ox) Strachey, E. J St. Loe Sulllvan, J. Sutton, J. E. Taylor, R A. (Lincoln) Taylor, W B (Norfolk, Thomas, Rt Hon. J. H. Thorne, W (West Ham, Thurtle, Ernest Tinker, John Joseph Toole, Joseph Tout, w. J. Townend, A. E. Vaughan, David Vlant, S. P. Walkden, A G. Walker, J. Wallace, H W Watklns, F. C. S W ) (Derby) Plalstow) watson, W M. (Dunfermline). Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Wellock, Wllfred Welsh, James (Paisley) Wel sh, James C. ( Coatbrldge) West, F. R. Westwood, Joseph White H. G Wh l teley, Wllfrid (Birm., Ladywoo) Wllklnson, Ellen C Wllllams, David (Swansea, East) Will l ams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Wllllams T (York Don Valley) Wilson, C. H (Sheffield, Atterclllle) Wilson, J (Oidham) Wllson, R. J (Jarrow) Wlnterton, G. E.(Lelcester,Loughb'gh) Wise, E. F Wood, Major McKenzle (Banff) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.Mr. Hayes a nd Mr Paling. Mr. ORMSBY-GORE.: I beg to move, in page 19. line 39, to leav e out Sub-se(> tio n (2). I mo v e this Amendment for the purpose o f a scertaining f rom the Financial Se c r etary to the T r easu 1 y som e more

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295 AgTicttltural Lancl 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 296 satisfactory reasons than those which we were able to obtain in the Committee upstairs, as to why borrowing for the purposes of this Bill is limited to borrowing by means of terminable annuities for a term not exceeding 20 years. The Treasury have various devices for borrowing, both short-term and longterm, and they have selected for the purposes of this Bill what, in the first place, appears to be one of the more expensive forms of borrowing. It can only be justified if 20 years is the full life of the security on which the money is borrowed. Presumably, 20-year terminable annuities involve interest and sinking fund, the sinking fund making up the capital in 20 years, and that inevitably, means a high rate of interest: If that is the reason of these provisions, does not. that, in fact, mean 7.0 p.m. that anything under this Bill which is financed out oQf hor roQwing will he charged a very high rate of interest 1 Is that object the Treasury policy in regard to th(;l administration of this Bill1 As the main object of this Amendment is exploratory, it must depend on what the Financial Secretary to the Treasury says in reply, and what explanation he gives us as to whether we press this Amendment to 'a Division or not. I move my Amendment in order that we may fully understand what is in the mind of the Treasury in this particular proposal in this part of the Bill The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence): I gmdly respond to the invitation of the right hon. Gentleman to give an explanation of the policy involved in this Sub section. I imagine that his intention is not to l ea.ve out the Sub-section, but to get an explanation, and that he ha.s chose n the Parliamentary W'ay of obtain ing it. There were two policies open to the Goverwnent with regard to the financial provisions of this Bill : they could arrange that .all the money required from the taxpayer should be found anmrally as it was needed to be forth coming, or, on the other hand, they could arra.nge that the money should be borrowed My right hon. F1iend decided that, in the special circum s tances of these proposa1s where large capital sums were involved, it would he unreason'able that the whole amount should he found out of the provision for the particular year in which they were incurred. Ta-king all the facts into account, he thought a comparatively short period ought to be imposed for the repayment of the lo an. While it is true that some of these assets will last considera.bly longer than 20 years, there are other assets from the capital expenditure on the smallholdings which will last less than 20 years, and a figure o.f 20 year.s was arrived at as a reasonable com promise, taking all these facts into consideration. It must be remembered that there is a very definite precedent for that figure of 20 years in the telephone .borrowing at the present time, and that preceaenl is embodied in this Bill. The rig)ht hon. Gentleman seemed to be under the impre.srsion, first 'Of all, that a very large amount of d:iffeTence would he made in the annual charge and, se,condly, that the period wer were pro .. pos.ing of 20 years wmmtisation in the Bill would involve. a very high clhar.ge to the people for whom the fa-cilitie,s are provided. NeitheT is horn.e out by the farcts. In the firost plrace, surprposing-we,re to make it a very shor.t nmnlber of ye:ars, 40 instead O'f 20, whi c'h would be far too !high, tlhe would not be quite as great as srome M embers would imagine. The. rate of intere,st a.t the >present time, including sinking fund, is rubout 7! pe.r cent. on a 20 yeram' bas.is, while a 40 yearrs' basis it would be per cent. That is tatken on the basis of a per cent. r a t e od' intererst, and the diff erence. i:s not quite so great as so-me Mermbers would imagine. The figureos I have given will be found to be correrct. The sercond point that the riglht hon. Gentleman sugrgetSted was tJhat the whole of this amount would be imposed u:pon the per, sons us.ing these fa:cilitiers. M y right hon. Friend beside. me has never disguised the fact tlhat these provisions are not expected to be errtirely finan cially remunemtive, and that there would be a charge urpon the taxpayer. Tlhat has been a ssumed on botll side,s o>f the House, and what will happen will be that, where tihese 'facilities are provid e d1 those per.g,ons receivin g t h e m will be expected to pay such an annual sum aa is reasonaJble in all i:lhe circumstances, and that during the con.tinuation of this 20 years' period t.he taxpayer will h ave a certain margin to find. Thrat is not an unre asona!ble propu.sal be.cau:se, assuming that tlhe 20 years are over,

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297 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) BilL 298 [Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.] then there will still be s.omething coming in from these facilities, and at that point tlhe tax'Payer will be 01btaining an a.dme.nt otf the1se items too long. The figure of 20 years ha:s been. fixed a.s a re.asona.ble compromise in order to meet all the requirements. Mr. ORMSBY-GORE: I beg leave to withdra;w my Amendrmen:t. Amendme-nt, by l eave, withd rwwn. Captain BOURNE: I b eg to move, in page 20, line 4, to leave out from tlhe word tbe to the end of the Sub section. J: move this .A!mend
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299 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 300' the technical reason which I have given him and that there is no likelihood of evaswn. Captain BOURNE: In view of the explanation, for which l am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, I will ask leav e to withdraw my Amendment. He will admit it is not very clear on the face of it, and we wanted an adequate explana tion. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. CLAUSE 2 3.-(1'1easury concurrence.) Captain BOURN E: I beg to move, in page 21, line 6, after the word three," to insert the word "six." The reason I move this Amendment is that this Clause provides that the powers of the Minister shall be exercised in accordance with such conditions as may be prescribed by the Treasury. This applies to his powers under Clauses 2, 3, 9, and 12 of this Bill, but, with regard to one of the most important Clauses of this Bill, namely, Clause 6, which may run into very large expenditure, I do not find the condition that his powers shall only be exercised by the consent of the Treasury, and I want to know why it has been left out. I have never seen a Bill in which the consent of the Treasury is so much asked as in this Bill, but it is not asked with regard to Clause 6. It seeme d to me, therefore, that, where tliis great amount of money is going to be spent and where the Treasury is asked to interfere so much, a little more interference would not do much harm. Captain DUGDALE: I beg to second the Amendment. Dr. ADD I SON: The reason why this particular reference to the Treasury is not inserted with regard to the powers of the Minister to provide smallholdings is that they are already exercised under the existing Act. W e take power under the present Bill to exercise them under the existing Act, and the arrangements made are made with the concurrence of the Treasury, so that the present practice wiJI continue. There is nothing new in it, and the control of the Treasury 1s already effectively exercised. Amendment negatived. CLAUSE 24.-(Application to Scotland.) Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move in page 21, line 26, after the word refer ence," to insert the words in Part II of this Act." This is a purely drafting Amendment. Amendment agreed to. Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in page 22 line 36, after the word fee," to insert the words : the expression agricultural buildings mea.ns building s :which a.re included in any agricultura l land and heritages as defined in the Rating and v.aluation (Apportion ment) Act, 1928." This is consequential on an earlier Amendment moved by the Minister of Agriculture in order to bring Scotland into line. Amendment agreed to. Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move m page 22, line 37, after the word the," to insert the word r' Chartered." Since t(he Bill was intl"IOduced, the Surveyors' Institution has become a chartered body; it is therefore necessary to; insert this word. Amendment agreed to. Further Amendment made : In page 22, line 38, after the second word the,'' insert the word Chartered."-[lJlr. .J ohnston. ] Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to m ove, in page 23, line 7, at the end, to insert the words: "(g) Sub-section (3) of Section sixteen of i;his Act Ghall apply with the substitution of a reference to the Agriculture (Scotland) li'und for any reference to the Smallholdings Account." 'rhis deals w -ith the authorisation of the 0xpenditure on allotments. It has itlready been approved so far as England is concerned, and this brings Scotland into line. The following .Amendment stood upon the Order Paper: In page 23, line 18, a t the end, to insert the words" (h) Where the Department in the exercise o f any power oonferred on them by a ny enactment erects a building on any l a nd, in accordance with plans specifications ap proved by the Department of Health for Scotland, the pr
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301 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 302 [Mr. Johnston.] buildings, shall, in S O far as inconsistent with such plans and specificatio.ns, not apply to such building as aforesaid; (i) Sub-section (3) of Section eighteen of the Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919, shall have effect as if for the purpose there in specified there were substituted the following purposes : (a) the provision of allotments or allot ment gardens and the purchase or leas ing a nd equipment of land therefor; (b) the making of grants or loans to local authorities or to societies or associa tions having as their object or one of their objects the provision of allotments or allot ment gardens in aid of expenditure by such authorities, societie s or a ssociations in connectio n with the provision of allot ments or allotment gardens."-[.Mr. lifT. ,:I. damson.] Major ELLI OT: May l ask the Under Secretary of State how far he proposes to move this Amendment. Perhaps he would move paragraph (h) alone so that we can consider tliat, because it is quite separate Irom paragraph (i). Mr. JOHNSTON: The purpose of this Amendment is to give the Department power a ,nd facilities for standardising their buildings. In England this power is not required, because the Government have already power to override small petty by-laws on their land. In Scot land, we have such power under other Smallholdings Acts, and we require it here. There has been an extraordinary instance of the necessity for giving this power where, on the opposite sides of the same roa:d, different by-laws obtain. That makes the operations of the De partment exceedingly difficult. It is the Department of Health, and not the De partment of Agriculture, which must be satisfied in these matters. Mr. SPEAKER: The Amendment on the Paper will have to be divided into two, and the Under-Secretary of State will have to move, as a:n Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to insert para graph (i) after the words last inserted. Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in page 23, line 18, at the end, to insert the words: (h) Where the Department in the exer cise of .any power conferred on them by, any e11actment ere?ts a r building on any 'land, in accordance wrth plans and specifications approved by the Department of Health for Scotland, i:!he provisions of any statutory enactment, 'by-law, rule, regulation, or other provision, under whatever authority made, relating to the construction of new build ings, shall, in so far as inconsistent with such plans and specifications, not apply to such building a s aforesaid; '' Major ELLIOT: No such drastic words have ever been laid before the House of Commons. The suggestion is not merely the overriding of some petty by-laws, which is a very perfunctory way of describing our local government statutes, but it may apply to every Statute passed by this House. Mr. JO:HNSTON: The hon. and gallant Gentleman himself got these powers in Ui25 in the Housing (Scotland) Act. Major EL.L I : We were dealing there specifically with the question of housing, but this is a suggestion that the Minister of Agriculture should, in the erection of any of these smallholdings buildings, not be required to comply with any of the regulations with which every private farmer has to comply. If he cared to put up a cow-shed Wlh.ich did not comply with the specifications of the Milk and Dairies Act, that Act would not apply to him. He could also put up a house for an agricultural labourer without sani tary accommodation, water or drainage, and would not be obliged to observe those things which are applied to a pri vate landlord or owner-occupier or a,ny body else who puts up any such building. It is true, as the Under-iSecretary of State says, that any buildings would have to be approved by the Department of Health. That sounds very fine and large, but who is the Department of Health? The omnipotent Pooh-Bah Secretary of State is the Department. He comes down one morning to breakfast, and says, My dear Mr. Adamson, I feel you are being seriously hampered in your build ing operations by the laws which have recently been passed by the House of Commons." Mr. Secretary Adamson says, Willie "-or words to that effect -"I fully agree, my boy." One says to the other, If you bring forward a submission in due course, I shall be glad to authorise it." Since the Lord Chan cellor in one of Gilbert and Sullivan's operas, no more comprehensive Com mittee has been conceived. M:r. MacLA,REiN: Scottish Home Rule.

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303 rlg;icnltuml Land 10 li'EBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. il04 Major ELLI OT: Even under Scottish Home Rule, the Secretary of State will have to be responsible to the Parliament of Scotland. It is suggested that no statutory enactments shall apply to the Minister. I remember the reasons which have caused this provision to be brought forward. There was an occasion upon which the Secretary of State, represented by the Department of Health, was about to serve an injunction on the Secre-tary of State, as represented by the Department of Agriculture, that the buildings which the Secretary of State, as represented by the Department of Agriculture, had put up did not satisfy the sanitary regulations of the Secretary of 8tate as represented by the Department of Health. That, however, was under the salutory statutory enactments of this H ouse, which brought security to the wretche d people who are living in these houses, which they will not have if this pronswn is passed. The case is no doubt on the files, and the Department would be able to find it in a very short time H they liked to delve into things which are often better left unturned. The Minister should really g ive some further justification of the proposal which he brings forward than he has done ; otherwise, I cannot see, with every desire to facilitate business, how we can let this proposal pass without a Division. It is the most far-reaching proposal which could b e brought before Parliament, and it is n o t possible to say that it would be to the good either of the tena nts who have to live in these buildings or of the farming operations which may have to be carried on in them. Mr. JOHNSTON: 1 appreciate what a splendid debating point the hon. and gallant Gentleman h a s got, but, as a matter of fact, these powers are already pos se!!Sed by the English Ministry in regard to Crown land. There is nothing new in them. We are only seeking to get for the Department in Scotland powers which are already possessed in Engla-nd N o one knows better than the hon. and gallant Gentleman that it is the constant endeavour of the Department in Edinburgh not only to comply with the wishes o f the local authorities hut to carry out the law. This proposal arises out of a ca.se in Haddirtgtonshlre, where there were different by-laws operating on opposite sides of a road, and it is desirable that the Department of Health should have the power to certify a certain stand ard of building. This would secure uniformity and save the country e.xpense by standardisation. By-laws vary, and tha.t means that the Department must vary its plans. As I have already said, some local authorities require certain kinds of washhouse.s and others do not; and there are other variations of that type. Personally, I do not think it is a matter of very great importance. The power mill require to be exercised perhaps only once in a deeade. It will be remembered by the hon. and gallant Member that in the Housing Act of 1925 he asked for and got similar powers, and if it is thought that the powers already possessed by local authorities ought to be safeguarded, so that the Department of Health and not the Minister of Agriculture must operate them, then we will not fight a.bout it. But I would point out to the hon. and gallant -MeiDJber and his friends that they might perhaps consider the advisability of letting this Amendment go in and consider, before the Blill goes to another place, in view of the difficulties in administration, whether on the whole it is not better that the Department in this instance as in others should have these powers. Major EL Ll 0 T: I can only speak aga.in by the leave of the. House, hut I would point out, first, that the statement of the Under-Secretary that the powers might. need to be execrcised only once in a decade shows that no grave administrative inconvenience would b e caused if the powers were not inserted ; and, secondly, that it does cause inconvenience if fa.rming operations ha-ve to comply with two different sets of bylaws. If these powers are so necessary and so much desired they might be brought in in a way which would allow of fuller disc us 'Sion than on the Report .stage, when we are anxious to get through the business of the House. There is another Scottish Bill in Committe e upstairs, and the Unde r -Secretary might put down a new Clause to cover the point if he decides that it ought to be incorporated in the law of Scotland. It is not necessarily germane to this Bill at all.

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305 Agricultuml Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) B il l. Mr. JOHNSTON: In view of the opinion expressed by hon. Gentlemen opposite, I will withdraw the Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Mr. JOIHNSTON: I beg to move, in page 23, line 18, at the end, to insert the' words: '' ( i) Sub-section (3) Df Section eighteen of the Lanartment of Agriculture one hopes that the local authorities will now exercise the .powers they have under the Act of 1926, in order tihat a.ll may go forward together. Amendment agreed to. Mr. J O'H NSTON : I beg to move, in pa:ge 23, lin e 19, to l ea.ve out the word-,; :)ub-section (8) of !Sections," and to im8rt instead thereof the words "tSubsections. (8} and (9) of .Section." The necessity for this Amendment a;rises out of the insetrtion of a new Clause,. Clause 7, which alters the numbers of the succeeding Cla.uses. Amendment agreed to. Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in page 23, line 20, 'to leave out the word seven. Major ELLI OT: Wthy is this ment being moved? Mr. JOHNSTON: The remark I made .a moment ago covers this Amendment .also. A new Claus.e was in se.rted in the Bill, and therefore the numbe;rs of the .succ eeding Clauses requi:re alteration. Major ELLI OT: But this is a matter of .c;ome impOI;t.a.nce. The Bill says that S
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307 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 308 fifteen," and insert instead thereof the words "twelve, thirteen, and seventeen." -[Mr. Johnston.] SECOND ScHEDULE.-(Minor Amendments of Small H vldings and Allotment Acts.) Dr. ADD I SON: I beg to move, in page 26, line 13, at the end, to insert the words: Secti.on 61 After tlhe word 'council,' where that word first occurs, there shall be ins.!'rtecl the words and the e xpressio.n council of a county." This Amendment is moved because hon. Members called my .attention to the fact that in some places we have the words county council and in other places council of a county," and is to make them harmonise. Amendment agreed to. Dr. ADDISON: I beg to move, "That the Bill be re-committed to a Corn' mittee of the whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 2, page 4, line 9, Clause 6, page 11, line 7, line line 39, line 44, Clause 15, page 16, line 18, and the new Clause, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Dr. Addison, a.nd in respect of the Amendment to Clause 24, page 22, line 41, standing on the Notice Paper in the name Qf Mr. Secretary Adamson." Major E LLI OT: I would like to take the opportunity of asking the Minister whether he is quite sure that the assurance he just gave about an Amendment referring to Section 7 of the Schedule and not of the Bill is correct. Or. ADD I SON: Certainly. Major ELL I OT: The reference was to Sections 7, 8, 9, :to, and 11 of Part I of the First Schedule, but when I turned to the First Schedule I find there are no such sections. At the time I took the assurance of t.h e J'vlinister on the point. Dr. ADDISON; And I certainly gave it in good faith. Major ELLI OT: .And we realised that it was given in good fa:ith. I can only bring this matter in by a reference to the fact that the Iecommittal deals in part with the .Amendment standing in the name of the Secretary of State for Scotland. To put it brie fly and nontechnically, it is a question of the application to Scotland of the Clause allo w ing the Minister to make smallholdings for persons who are not unemployed. No. 55 I read it that Section 7 of the Bill was not to apply, but the Minister assured me that I was mistaken in thinking it was Section 7 of the Bill. Dr. ADDISON: I find that the reference is to the S cbedule in the Act and not to the Schedule of this Bill. I con fess that, as I read the paragraph, I thought it was Lhe First Schedule of this Bill, but on re-reading it I find that it relates to the Land Settlement Act and to the First Schedule of that Act. Major ELU OT: .An opportunity will arise later for diseussing this llllatt e r and I do not wi.sh to pursue it further now, but I would point out that the House was misled, of' course unwittingly, by the Minister, and therefore we may want to consider the matter further when we come to the appropriate point. The House was misled by the Minister's statement, which was the result, perhaps, of intervening rashly in a discussion upon a Scottish application Clause, Question put, and agreed to, Bill accordingly considered in Com mittee. [Sir RoBERT YouNG in the Chair.] CLAUSE 2 -(Power of Minister to acquire and hold land for use as demonstra tt:on farrns.) Dr. ADD I SON: I beg to move, in page 4, line 9, after the word purchase," to insert the word equip." The object of this Amendment is to allow the provision made in regard to land for demonstration farms to include their equipment. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. CLAUSE 6.-(Power of j Vinister to provide smallholdings with financial assistance for unemployed persons.) The .following Amendment stood upon the Paper: In page 11, line 7, after the word for to insert the words : enabling him to underta.!re the business of a sma.llholder,' including sums for." rDr. Addison.] Dr. ADDISON: A mistake has been made in putting down this Amendment, and I do not move E

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309 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF OOMMDNS (Utilisation) Bill. 310 [Dr. Addison.] I beg to move, in page 11, line 19, at the end, to insert the words : and in the event of any .difficulty in obtaining any stock require d for the purpose afo resaid the Minister may arrange for the production thereof by any local authority, society, or person, and for the pro vision of the equipment necessary for that purpose upon such terms as may be agreed between him and the local authority, oociety, or person." This Amendment is moved to meet any difficulty that may arise in obtaining any stock, and makes provision of the necessary equipment upon such terms as may be agreed between the Minister and the local authorities. These words make the point quite clear. Amendment agreed to. Dr. ADD I SON: I beg to move, in page 11, line 39, after the word require," to insert the words : "for themselves or for their dependants." This Amendment is moved in order to implement an undertaking which has already been given. Amendment agreed to. Dr. ADDISON: I !beg to move, in page 11, line 44, to lea,ve out the words for them and insert instead thereof the words: (a) f.or any person desirous of obtaining a smallholding under this section who 1s, in the opinion of the Minister, likely to become suitable as a tenant of such a holding; and (b) for not more than one dependant of any such person or of any person [or who.m a smallholding has been provided under this section. In this sectio n the expression dependant means, in relation to any person, the husband, wife, son, or daughter (including a step son or step-daughter and an adopted On or daughter) of that person. These words are propose d in order to carry out what has already been arranged. Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and nega.tived. Question proposed, That those words b e there inserted." Mr. R. W. SMITH : I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 8, after the word daughter," to insert the words "or grandchild.'' I think it is necessary to insert these words in order to make the Amendment clear. Dr. ADDISON: I think we must draw the line somewib.ere. In my Amendment we have taken the usual cla.ssifi.cation, and the Amendment to the proposed Amendment seems to me to be rather stretching a fine point. Mr. SMITH: I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment to the proposed Amendment. Amendment t o proposed Amendment, 'by leave, withdrawn. Question, That those words tbe there inserted,'' put, rand agreed to. Clause, a.s amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. CLAUSE 15. -(Power o f Minister to defray losses incurred by local authorities in providing allotment gardens for unemployed persons.) Dr. ADDISON: I !beg to, move, in page 16, line 18, to leave out from tib.e beginning to the word without in line 22, and to insert instead thereof the words: (5) The Minister may, a fter the .date of the commencement of this Act, approve propf January nineteen hundred and thirty-one, <>r is after the commencement of this Act acquir ed." This is an Amendment to make clear the power of the Minister to defray the losses incurred by local authorities inpro .. viding allotment gardens for unemployed persons. If a number of authorities wish to enter into contracts to purchase land for allotmen t s they can do so under this pr.opo.sa l. Mr. GUINNESS: I do not objec t to allotment gardens for unemployed persons, but I wish to protest against the financi a l precedent which appears to he create d by this procedure. As I understand inis Amendment, it gives retrospective sanction to expenditure which ha.s been incurred by local authorities on the authority of the Minister. I .should' like to have that point cleared up. I admit that this pl'oposal is within the four corners of the sc h eme set out in the Bill, and it oomes under the organisation which lhe Minister has created. After

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311 A.gricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 312 what the Minister has said I have a very str.amg conviction that this expenditure ha, s only been .incurred by the loca,l authorities on the understanding that they would be repaid under the provisions of this Bill. I do not wish to discus-s the?. point any further, but I desire to register a strong protest against the Amendment. Sir DOUGLAS NEWTON: We have no information whatever 'as to the local authorities who have .spent this money, as to the amount of money they have spent, or what commitments they have incurred. Dr. ADDISON: We undertake by this Bill to provide seeds and fertilisers for allotment holders. I quite recognise the difficulties which have been pointed out. Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL: According to the arrangement now suggested, any Government in power can delegate authority to local auth
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313 A.g1'icultuTal Land Hoflman, P. C. Hollins, A. Hopkin, Daniel Hore-Belisha, Leslle Horrabln, J. F. Hudson, James H. (Hudderaneld) Hunter, Dr. Joseph lsaacs, George Jenklns, Sir Wllllam John, William (Rhondda, West) Johnston, Thomas Jones, F. Llewellyn-(Flint) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Sllvertown) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Jowctt, Rt. Hon. F. W. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Klnley, J. Kir. kwood, D. Knight, Holford Lang, Gordon Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Lathan, G. Law, Albert (BDiton) Law, A. ( Rossendale) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Lawther W (Barnard Castle) Leach, W. Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) Lee, J e nnle (Lanark, Northern) Lees, J. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Lloyd, C. Ellls Logan. Davld Gilbert Longbottom, A. W. Longden, F. M acdonald, Gordon (I nee) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) McEntee, V. 1 McKinlay, A. MacLaren, Andrew Mar.lcan, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) McShane, John James Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Mander, Geoflrey le M. Mansfleld, W. Marcus, M M ark ham, S. F. Marley, J. M arshall, Fred Mathers, G eorge Matters, L. w. Acland Troyte, Lleut. -Colonel Alnsworth, Lleut.-Col. Charles Albery, lrvlng James Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wllfrld W Atklnson, C. B a lfour, George (Hampstead) Be a mlsh. RearAdmiral T P. H Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Blrchall, MaJor Sir John Dearman Bird, Ernest Roy Boothby, R. J. G. Bourn e Captain Robert Croft. Bowater, Col. Sir T Vanslttart Boyce, Leslle Bracken, B. Bralthwalte Major A. N. Brlscoe, Richard George Brown, Col. D. C. ( N 'th"l'd., Hexham) Brown, Brlg.-Gen .H.C.(Berks,Newb'y) Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Campbell E. T. carver, Major W. H. Castle Stewart, Earl of Cautley, Sir Henry S. Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) HOUSE OF COMMONS M axton, J ames Melville, Sir James M lddleton, G. Mllner, Major J. Montague, Frederlck Morgan, Dr. H. B. Morley, Ralph Morris, Rhys Hopkins Morrls-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denblgh) Morrlson, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Mort, D. L. Mosley Lady C. (Siokeon-TrentJ M osley Sir Oswald (Smethwlck) Mull, G. Muggeridge, H. T. Murnin, Hugh Noel Baker, P. J. Noei -Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N ) Oldfield, J. R Oliver, George Harold (llkestonj Ollver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Palin, John Henry Paling, Wllfrld Parkinson, John Alien (Wiganl Perry, S. F. Peters. Dr. Sldney John PethlckLawrence, F. W. Philllps, Dr. M arion Picton-Turbervill, Edith Pole, Major D. G. Polls, John S. Price, M. P. Pybus, Percy John Qulbell, D. J. K. Ramsay, T. B. Wllson Rathbone, Eleanor Raynes, W. R. Rlchards, R Rlchardson, R (Houghton-le-Sprlng) Rlley, Ben (Dewsbury) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Ritson, J. Romeril, H. G. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Rowson, Guy Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Sanders, W. S. Sawyer, G. F. Scott, James Scrymgeour, E Scurr, John Sexton, Sir James Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Sherwood, G. H. NOES. Cayzer, MaJ.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) Chamberlain,Rt.Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm. ,W ) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Ch apman, Sir s. Christle, J. A. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Wlnston Spencer Clydesda le, Marquess of Cobb, Sir Cyrll Cockerlll, Brig.-General Sir George Cohen, Major J. Brunei Colvllle. Major D. J. Courtauld, MaJor J. s. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Cr a nborne, Vis count Crlchton-Stuart, Lord C. Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H Crooks hank, Cpt. H.(Lindsey,Galnsbro) Dalkellh, Earl of Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godtrey Davles, Maj. Geo. F (Somerset,Yeovil) Dawson, Sir Phlllp Dlxon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Duckworth G. A. V. Dugdale, C apt. T. L. Edmondson, MaJor A. J. Elllot, MaJor Waiter E. (Utilisation) Bill. Shield, George Willlam Shiels, Dr. Drummond Shlllaker, J. F. Shlnwell, E. "Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Slmmons, C. J. Sinclalr, Sir A. (Caithness) Sltch, Charles H. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Smith, Frank ( Nuneaton) Smith, H. B. Lees( Kelghley) Smith, Rennie (Penlstone) Smith, Tom ( Pontefract) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Phillp Sorensen, R. Stamlord, Thomas W. Stephen, Campbell Stew art, J. (St. Rollox) stra uss, G R. Sullivan, J. Sutton, J. E. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) 314 Taylor, w. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Tinker, John Joseph Toole, Joseph T011t, W. J. Townend, A. E Vaughan, Davld Viant, s. P. Walkde n, A. G. Walker, J. Wallace, H. W. Watklns, F. C. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Watts-Morgan, Lt. -Col. D. (Rhondda) Wellock, Wilfred Welsh, Jame5 (Paisley) Welsh, James C (Coatbrldge) West, F. R. Westwood, Joseph White, H. G. Whileley, Wllfrid (Birm., Ladywoodi Willlams, David (Swansea, East) Wllllams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Wllllams, T. (York. Don Valley) Wllson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercllfle) Wllson, J. (Oidham) Wllson, R. J. (Jarrow) Wlnterton, G E .(Lelcester,Loughb'gh] Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff) TELLERS FOR THE A YES Mr. B e n Smith and Mr. Thurtle England, Colonel A. Ersklne, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.M .) Everard, W. Llndsay Falle, Sir Bertram G. Ferguson, Sir John Fermoy, Lord Flclden, E. B. Flson, F. G. Claverlng Ford, Sir P. J. ForestlerWalker, Sir L. Fremantle, Lleut.Colonel Francls E. Galbralth, J. F. W. Glbson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Gower, Sir Robert Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London! Guinness, Rt. Hon. Waiter E. Hall, Lleut.-Col Sir F. (Dulwich) Hanbury, C Hannon, Patrlck )oseph Henry Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Haslam, Henry C. Hennessy, Major Sir G. R J. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Hudson, Capt. A. u M. (Hackney,N.)

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315 Agricultuml Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 316 lveagh, Countess of Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Kindersley, Major G. M. Peake, Capt. Osbert Penny, Sir George Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) South by, Commander A. R. J. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Lamb, Sir J. Q. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Leighton, Major B. E. P. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Peto, Sir. Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Ramsbotham, H. Suet er Rear-Admiral M. F. Rawson, Sir Cooper Thomson, Sir F. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Llewellln, MaJor J. J. Reid, Davld D. (County Down) Remer, John R. Titchfleld, Major the Marquess of Todd, Capt. A. J. McConn e ll, Sir Joseph Macquisten, F. A. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Renneil Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonei E. A. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Salmon, Major I. Train, J. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) Ward, Lleut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Wardlaw-Milne, J. S. M itch ell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Mitcheii-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Monsell, Eyres, Corn. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Mulrhead, A J. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Savery, s. S. Warrender, Sir Victor Waterhouse, Captain Charles Wayland, Sir Wllllam A. 'Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome Simms, Major-General J. Wells, Sydney R Windsor-CIIve, Lieut.-Colonel George Withers, Sir John James Womersley, W. J Nelson, Sir Frank Slnclalr, Col T (Queen's u., Beifst) Skelton, A. N. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) O'Connor, T. J. O'Nelll, Sir H. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Smith, R. W .(Aberd'n & Klnc'dlne, C.) Smlthers, Waldron Wood, Rt. l-Ion Sir Klngsiey TELLERS FOR THE NOES Captain Margesson and Sir George Bowyer. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Somerset, Thomas Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. CLAUSE 24.-(Application to Scotland.) Dr. ADD I SON: I want to apologise to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) for something which I said to him in error in regard to the last Amendment. I had not read it myself, but the whole point is that this Clause which follows is the adaptation Cl a use, and the reference to Clause 7 is necessary because of the new Clause 7. Major ELLI OT: I am much obliged to the Minister, and I am sure the whole -Committee is grateful for his explana tion. It w ill be for the convenience of those who are following the Debate in Scotland and elsewhere, to have it. Mr. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, in page 22, line 41, to leave out from the word six," to the end of the paragraph, and to insert instead thereof the words : '' and section seve n of this .Act .,.D.:lll hot apply, but the department shall have power to provide in accor-dance with the pro visions of the Small Hol-dings Colonies .Acts, 1916 and 1918, or of the Small Landholde r s (Scotland) .Acts, 1886 to 1919, either on land belonging to the department or ()n land belonging to another person, a holding for an unemployed ,person within the meaning of the said sub-section (1) or for an agri cultural worker notwithstanding that such 1 unemployed person or agricultura l worker would be unable to cultivate the holding unless the facilities set forth in sub-sectio n (2) of the said s e ction six w e r e exten-de d t o him. (g) .Sub-s ections (2), (3), and (4) of sec tion six of this Act shall have effect as if for any reference to the provision under the powers conferred by that section of a. smallh()lding for an unemployed person, there were substituted a reference to the provision under the p-ower conferred by the immediately preceding paragraph of a holding for an unemployed person -or an agricultural worker, and any reference to the said section six shall include a refer ence to the immedi.ately preceding paragraph." This is a rathe-r terrifying lalbyrinth o f words, but it rupparently is the normal way of stating ade.quately the po:sition. By (1) Q[ Clause 6, po;wer is ta:ken to procvide so:nallh-ol-dings and to give finan cial assi.srtance t o unemploye d per&on-s, and that was adapted for ScotJand by OlaUtse 24, para gra-ph (/).
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317 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 318 [Major Elliot.] ci.ple involved. As I unde.rsesired to add, to the provision m111de for tJhe Sllllallf.or unemployed people, all agricultural workers, whetJher unemployed or not. That broadening of the basis of the Bill was welicomed by the Committee as a whole, and the Minister, who at the time thouglht that he would require to place safeguard s upon tJhis extension, has f.ound on reflection that tho,se safeguard.s will nnt be ne ces .s:ary. The Financial Re,solut>ion which is in the Bill show-s a slight difference illS between tJhe Scottish and the English portions. Para:graph (e), wlhich is the Scottish portion, ISIJleaks of : Buch sums as may be required by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland for the purchase of land or the erection of buildings for the provision of holdings for unemp l oyerl the paragraph, ( d), w:h1ch relates to England, speaills o1f: '' Such sums as may be required by the l\finister for the purchase of land or the of buildings for the provision of smallholdings.'' It wi ll, therefore, be clear that thA Scottish portion is fettered by the words "h.oldings fo,r unemployed persons," whiCh are absent from the English por and, therefore, whatever alteration we might make in the Bill could not help the position in Scotland, because that is governed by the Financial Resolution, which is incorporated in the present Clause 21 of the Bill. That being so, the Secretary of, .State for .Scotland has had to adopt the somewhat complicated measure of feeding the money required into the Agriculture (1Scotland) Fund and drawing from the Agriculture land) Fund the sums which he will require to ca,rry out the settlement of those persons, not unemploye d who are being brought in by the present provision. If this be so, we can proceed to the Amendments whi c h I and some others of my hon. Friends have upon the Paper. I should like to say, in the first place, that w.e on this side of the House fully appreciate the desirability of bringing in the agricultural worker, whether employed or unemployed. If this Bill is to deal with the question of land settlement, it would obviously be foolish to exclude from land settlement those who, of all people, would be most likely to take advantage of it, and, indeed, if that were done, there would be great resentment throughout the country as a whole. A.t the present time there are 2,600,000 people registered as unemployed. There are in addition some 1,200,000 agricultural workers, which makes 3,800,000. Then there are all those other persons who may be unemployed, although they do not appear on any register. They may easily be put down at another 1,000,000, which brings the t-otal to 4,800,000 ; and to attempt to cut a loaf which cannot be more than 100,000 holdings to cover all this vast mass of persons will, it seems to me, he a matter of great adminis difficulty in the future. Amendments will have to be made later to dea] with them, but at the moment the point is that it is necessary to omit these words in order to bring the Scottish agricultural worker into the same position in which the English agricultural worke.r has been placed. That alteration was made in Committee with good will on a ll sides, and I am certain that the House also will agree with the same good will in all quarters to the alterati<>n which is at present being made as regards Scottish agriculture. Mr. SCOTT: I agree with tbe hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken that the method adopted by tJhe Government is necessarily a complicated method, but no doubt they are advised that it is the only method by which the money destined for this purpose can be obtained for Scotland. Speaking for the party which at tJhe moment I happen to be leading, I may say that we entir ely approve of the proposals in this Clause. My purpose in intervening is to raise a general point, following the example of the hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken. I should like to get from the Government a n assurance that what they are going to do is to settle tlhese unemployed m e n and agricultural workers under the tenure of the Small Holdings Acts, and not merely as tenants of the Department of Agriculture. That is a very vital point, b ecause we have in Scotland already some 50,000 smallholders, and we on these benches would

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319 AgricuUural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 320 like to be assured that the intention of the Government is to esta,blish these new holders under tJhe existing Acts, with a,ll the privileges and benefits which those Acts confer-tha,t is to sa,y, they would have security of tenure, fair rents, and full compensation for improvements. One thing we do not want, a,nd tha,t is tha,t these new holders should be mere tena,nts under tJhe State with no rights whatever, with their tenure purely at the dictation of the officia,ls of the Department of Agriculture; a,nd, particula,rly, that these holdings should not be let at equipped rents, a, met
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321 Agricultuml Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 322 [Mr. .Smith.] This is tJhe first of two Amendments which hang together, and deal with the same point. We have two forms of small landholders in Scotland, those set up by the Department of Agriculture on land belonging to the Department, and those set up on private estates. I rather dread to mention the word, but tJhere is a report known as the N airne report, and whenever we mention it in the House or anywhere near it, it seems rather to frighten English Members. The first recommendation of that committee was that the creation by the .State of small lholdings on privately-owned estates should be discontinued in the Lowlands. My Amendment is to carry out that recommendation. It is simply that these unemployed persons and agricultural workers should be settled on land that belong s to the Department and not on private estates so as to discontinue a system which has worked so unsatisfac torily in the past. Major COLVILLE: I support the Amendment to the proposed Amendment. It i s not our intention to limit tJhe operation of the Act, but to see that it is worked smoothly. It was very clearly brought out in the Nairne report that the system of dual ownership was working out unsatisfactorily. The tenants did not like it because they thought they had to pay two rents, one for buildings and one for land. The report recommended cle arly that further holdings should be on land owned by tJhe Department of Agriculture :liar Scotland. The Departm_ent is already the hrgest hmd owner m Scotland and owns ove-r 300,000 acres, so that they have a con siderable area of land to work upon. I support the Amendment to the proposed Amendment in the belief that it w ill make for smooth running, and that the syste m of dual ownerslhi p should not be enlarged when increasing the numb-er of small landholders. Mr. JOHNSTON: It would certainly b e highly desirable, particularly considering some of the classes o f applicantE, that, as far as possible, the holder should be placed upon publi c l y owned land. It is the settled poli c y of the Government to see that as much land as possible is acquired for public purposes, but there might ibe cases, particularly in the Highland areas, where it would un-duly restrict the opportunities afforded by this Bill to provide settlements for farm workers and unemployed persons, if the hon. Gentleman's Amendment were accepted. If he will rest satisfied with the statement that it is the obvious in tention of the Government to secure as much land as possible for the State, 'and to settle as many of these holders as possible on publicly-owned land, I think he will find that it will meet his case. Major ELUOT: Naturally, we cannot accept what ha. s fallen from the Minister that it is desirable that the State should own a.s much land as possible, and that all cultivators in Scotland should not be freeholder.s, but should be tenants of the St'ate. That would not, I think, really commend itself to the party below the Gangway either, even amongst the shreds and pa,tches of the principles which they pre-serve upon this subject. [An HoN. MEMBER : .Shame "] This is not in any way a, reflection upon their moral chara.cter The question of .private ownership is enormously oomplicatea as soon as it come s to a questi.on of land. The ownership of a piece of land owned by a landlord, interfered with ihy the State, further interfered with by the tenant and super-interfered with by a marketing board, but not in any way interfered with through imports coming from abroad-these principles can be reconciled in the Liberal attitude towards a piece of land. W e sympathise with them in their difficulty. The proposals of the N airne Committee were th'at the State should buy a piece of land and that the tenants should know to whom they ha. d to look. We are of Opinion in regard to this questi.on that to have the freehold hela iby the State and the ten'ancy by the tenant is much to b e preferred. The Under-Secretary of State osays that it s desired that the dual ownership system should not be preserved. Upon that matter we are agreed, and perhaps on that assurance my hon. Frien d might be able to withdraw his Amendment. I think that in so far as we are agreed to :tny extent on any subject relating to land, iCis su1fieiently a miracle that it should ibe greeted with acclamation. Mr. SCOTT: I cannot allow the princ iples of the Liberal party to be stated by the hon. and gaUant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot). He ha.s

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323 Agricultutal Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 324 grossly mis-sta,ted them in referring to them as shred'S and patches. I should like to dissociate myself from the idea that it is part of Liberal principles or policy to acquire as much land as possible f o r the Sta,te, leading ultimately to the total nationalisation
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325 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 326 [Major E.Uiot.] land over the heads of men who had been spending their live s in working upon the land. The Minister in charge of the Bill warned the Committee that it was unlikely that he would receive sufficient Treasury suppo-rt to enable him to make any substantial inroads upon the numbers of those working upon the land .and who might desire smallholdings. He suggested that it might be necessary to safeguard the position by Amendments on the Report stage, but it was clear when the Order Paper was scrutinised that he had not found it necessary to take those further precautions. It was unnecessary. This is merely an enaibling Bill for the Minister. In Clause 16, which is the important and opera tive Clause it is provided that The Minister may make grants or a,d vances to any cotmty oouncil etc." in reg.ar:rd 1tn allotments:, and the moneys may provi,de .a .certain number of small holdings. Clause 6 :SaY's, that the Minister < Shall have power to provide smallholdings f.or eertain p ersons. All t h e se thing.s are subject to the overriding veto of the Trea:Sury. The fact is: tha.t in Sco:tLand we oould have done nearly everything that there is in this Bill at any time for years past, save the .small question of making an advance during l!t period of on e pound a week to Ce!'1bain persons. rw e could ha.ve done. all this by an increa,sed vote from the T 'l'easury Mr. J OH NSTON : :What about allot-ments 1 Major ELLI OT: The,re are certain a r,ran gements in r egard to allotments for which we shoul.d have required 'sp'ecial powers. Mr. SCOTT: Why did not the l,a,s:t Government do it 1 Major E : LLI OT: The last Government did not do it for the r e a;son that the h o n. M'ember's Government did not do it, and fnr the r ea,son that the present Gov.ern ment w i ll not do i t, because the Chan cellor of the says It is very to note tha;t w hen the hon. M1ember'.s own leader was in dffi culti e s in c:arry ing out the sort of proee.ss which he was urged to adopt--The CHA,I RIMAN: I am afraid that we are get.ting wide of the Amendment. Major ELLI OT: My point is that pre vious Governments found the same difficulty in providing fina.nce, and that the ,Coalition Gov,errnm ent, P'resided over by the right hon. M.ember for Carnarvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd 'George), applied 1the axe to smallholdings, cut down .smallhold ings and the finamce of smallholdings, with the re,sult that the .crea ti,on of smallholdin g s and land settlement did not take p l ace. All1th'e things which indioa:te diffi culties before the Minister in carrying out thi,s work will be chiefly the difficulty of finance. The Minister has taken a great category o f persons, 2,600,000 unemployed persons, who are 1eligihle for benefit under Ol.ause. He has a.d.ded to that number a further great Cla:tegory of agricultural workers Mr. SCOTT: This part ,of the Bill refers only to Scotland. The hon. and gallant Member is giving the figures for Great Britain. Major ELL I OT: I am giving the figures for Great Britain because I desire that the Minister should consider whethe r the Amendment whic h I am moving and which applies to Scotland would not be a suitable Amendment to apply t-o the wlhole of Great Britain. 'fhe Minister ha.s bro-ught in a further category, those whom he deems tn be unemployed. [An HoN MEMBER: "Anothe r million! "] I do not know what the numbe r may be. Those whom the Minister may deem to be unemployed may cover .a very wide field. Then there are those whom tlhe Minister may deem to be agricultural workers. Wha.t is the point of these figures 1 Let us have the simple category that we have had in Scotland, and under which we have worked for many years, namely, the category of the person. If the Minister wislhes to take great a responsibility, let him take the whole responsibility. L,et him simply make out a list. The question then will not be whethe r a person is unemployed, or has been unemployed, or is deemed to be unemployed, or is an agricultural wol'ker, has been a n agricultural worker, or is deeme d to an agricultural worker. These things will not apply. The Minister will make out his list and from that list he will take, without fettering himself 'witlh administrative webs, those persons in re-

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327 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 328 gard to whom the Chancellor of the Exchequer finds enough m{)ney to enable them to be settled urpon the land. That ]s briefly the .purpose of the Amendment which we are bringing for ward. It may be said that it is broaden ing the matter too muclh. It is not broadening the matter too much. to suggest that the percentage to be taken off the existing list will be so small that the power of choice of the Minister will not make any difference to the real numbers of persons who come either to be settled upon the l and or who can get on to such a list with any immediate prospect of getting !Smallholdings !hereafter. The hon. Member f{)r Kincardine (Mr. Sc{)tt) made the suggestion that those already on the .list should have a chance of getting these facilities, but he with drew that or, rather, h e ran awa y from it, in a very unusual fashion for him, on tJhe a ssurance of the Minister that nearly all those persons were covered under the existing two categories of unemployed persons and agricultura,l workers. Mr. SCOTT: :What more did I want 1 Major ELLI OT: The hon. Member might have thought for the minority. I thouo-ht that his part y were particularly in the rights of minorities. Merely to say that a minority is to be unjustly or badly treated and is not. t o have certai n facilities that are bemg found for everyone e l se, I should have thought would have struck right h ome to t h e heart of the hon. Member for Kincardine and those who sit with him. But he now says, in effect, that it does not matter. He accepts the old motto of Mr. Birre ll, that: Minorities must s uff er; it is the badge of their tribe." It does not matter. Only. 10 per cent. of these p eop l e are to suffer this injustice. Only 10 per ce n t o f these peopl e, wh o have been waiting for years, are to suffer Only 10 per cent. of the people who have b een denied these facilities b y the Government of whic h his p r e sent leader was the head, and by successive Govern ments, are still to be baulked and to be cheated of their hopes. That, I suppose, is a small thing. Only 600 or 700 men are to suffer Let us make a s tand for those 600 or 700 men. Why should it b e n ecessary for me t o plead with t h e Liberal party that the proposal which they put forward should be stood to in the Lobby 1 Mr. SCOTT: The hon. and gallant Member is caricaturing the whole situation. I received a definite a ssurance from the Under-Secretary of State for Scot land that practically 90 per cent. :vill receive consideration for their applica tions. With regard to the 10 per cent. it was represented that case was not urgent and that their applications would not be entertained. Mr. J 0 H N S TON : They are not eligible. Major ELL I OT: I do not want to stress the matter unduly. The proposals of the Government have been transformed entirely during the passage this J?ill through Committee. From a Bill dealing with unemployment relief they have become a land settlement Bill, and as a Land Settlement Bill the proposals are not This Amendment is move d in order to m a ke them more satisfactory. Mr. JOHNSTON: It is perhaps too much to ask the hon. and gallant Member to allow us to pass from this point, but may I assure him that d?leful he has painted of the situatwn as It now stands under the Bill has little or n o justification. He omitted t o note altogether the fact that Wie have some 4,000 approved applicants on our departmental list, and if 90 per cent. of those applicants are eligible it will tax the resources of the Department for a very considerabl e time to find suitable land and the necessary homes and equipment fo r them. If, in addition to this number alread y on the approved list, we bring in ao-r i cultural workers, many of whom a.re unemployed at the moment and who obviously, are persons to who m any responsi?le would give priority rreference a matter of this kind It will be seen, If we add these two cias ses together that is, t?e approve d applicants alread y o n our hst and the farm workers, a number of whom are unemployed, that we shall have as much o n our hands as will tax the resources of the Department for a very long time to com e If t h e Amendment to the proposed Amendment were accepted we should have a flood of thousands of additio n a l applicants, many of whom would b e doom ed to disappointment. The very examination o f their claims, t1ie clerical work, would unnecessarily add to the difficulties of the Departm e nt. If that

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"329 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF OOMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 330 [\Mr. J ohnston.] be so, and it is a reasonable statement of the case, it would obviously be unnecessary and unwise to extend further the list which is wide enough already and which will tax our resources for a con siderable period. In these circumstances I suggest to the hon. and 9.0 p.m. gallant Member, who is as anxious as anyone for the most efficient use shall be made of this Bill, that he should not unnecessarily clog the machinery and swell the application list, but allow the Minister to de a l with registered applicants already on our lists plus the agricultural workers who were added with cordial unanimity in the Committee upstairs. Mr. BOOTH BY: The Under-Secretary of State has not dealt with what seems to me to be the real point of the Amendment to the proposed Amendment, and it is this. Wliy make this legislation unnecessarily complicated. This is a Bill upon which may be based a whole series <>f land settlement Bills, extending over many years, and it would he muc h b etter to lay down the general principl e and say that land settlement should apply to any person who in the opinion of the responsible Minister is a suitable applicant and well qualified for land settlement. The Under-Secretary says that he will be hard put to it to find positions for thos e who a .re already on the list, and he mentioned a figur e of 4,000. That is probably the case ; but I cannot see the reason for excluding these people whe n you have included large categories amongst the unemployed and agricultural workers who are deemed to be agricultural workers. Why should you exclude any substantial section of the community which may contain people who are perhaps better qua1lfied than anybody else to be settled in smallholdings 1 I support the Amendment for two reasons. In the first place, because I believe it is necessary to set a precedent in the matter of Land Settlement Bills so that they will be able to be applied in the future to the whole population. Of course, t h e agricultural worker who is unemployed must b e a first choice in any scheme of land settlement, but those who have the cause of land settlement at heart must believe that this is one method of evacuating the towns and getting the people to live in the country. In the second place, I support the Amendment because this legislation is so complicated, and I see no reason why the Minister should handicap himself in this way for no purpose, as far as I can see Amendment to proposed Amendment, negatived. Question, That those words be there inserted," put, and .agreed to. Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. NEW CLAUSE.-(Power to arrange for management by local authorities of smallholdings and allotments provided by Minister or for the transfer thereof to such authorities.) (1) Any smallholdings or allotments -vro vided by the Minister and any land acqUired by him for the purposes of smallholdings or allotments in exercise of the powers co.n ferred on him by i:!his Part of this Act may, iby arrangement between him and the local au'thority, be either-( a) oontmlled .and managed 'by the authority as agents for the Minister; or (b ) transferred to the authority on such terms as may be agreed /between the Minister and the authority and approved by the Treasury. '(2) Any smallholdings, allotments, or land transferred to a local authority .under i:!his section shall 1be deemed to have been acquired by the authority under the Smallholdings and Allotments Acts. (3) In this section. the expression local authority mea.ns, 1n ;relatwn to a smallholding or to acquired for a holding, the council of the county, and, m relation to any allotment or to _land ac quired for allotments, the council of the boroug
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331 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 332:. undertaking given in Committee. I would like to recognise the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has met us to some extent. In the original Bill there was a provision that the Minister could arrange for management by local authorities, but there was no power to hand over the smallholdings and allotment estates to the ownership of the a 'uthority now responsible for that class of administration. In Committee we were anxious to prevent the development of two rival systems. We quite understood that, given acceptance of the principle of the Bill-to which we do not in any way reduce our was inevitable that a temporary measure of control should vest in the Ministry of Agriculture in the matter of training, of equipment and of maintenance allowance, and that until people were fairly settled on the holdings under this new and untried system obviously the Minister, being re sponsible for all this public money, must control tlie early stages of the experiment. But ir we allow this Bill to enable the Ministry permanently to carry on the smallholdings and allotment estates inevitably that would snuff out all the efforts o the local authority, becal).se this Bill is offering greater inducements and more favourable terms than were ever available previously. We believe that the local authorities have an unrivalled and invaluable ex perience, in carrying on smallholdings especially, and to a rather lesser degree in the case of a llotments. We believe that they have done their smaollholdings work efficiently and cheaply, and we do not wish to see a competitive and more favoured system set up. To some extent the Minister has met us. He has taken powers to transfer to local authorities at his discretion; with the sanction of the Treasury. We want him to go further. We want him to follow the precedent of the Act of 1919. We cannot have the s ame machinery, because under that Act the provision of smallholdings was left to the local authorities, and the State by provisions which are inapplicable to our present probl em, had to make up to the l oca l authorities any temporary loss, and finally to come to a settlement after seven years. But we do feel that the genera l principle of that precedent shouTd be followed, that we ought to con the well-established system that the smallholdings estates should be run by the responsible county authority. They hru;ve the land agents, they have the officials and the organisation, they are in touch with local conditions, and we wish to see the new system eventually absorbed in .the very valuable work which. has been carried on by the local authority. The Amendment provides that after three years it shall no longer be optional to the Minister, but that he shall hand ove r these estates to the authorities-the county councils and the county borough councils with smallholdings, and the existing allotment authorities-so that when tliis scheme has been set on foot and has had a, reasonable time for estab lishment the estate shall be run as part of the general effort of the local authorities. Dr ADDISON: I am sorry that I cannot 'Possibly accept this Amendment .. It would mean that at iJhe end of three years, when smallholdings or allotments on an estate had been well-established, the Minister would be compelled to hand it over to the county counc i l. I do not stand second to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Guinness) in my appreciation of the work of the -county councils. I Tecognise tlhe value o f their wo rk, but I think it would be altogether unwise to c
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333 Agricultural Lancl HOUSE OF OOMMONS (Utilisation) Bill. 334 The CHAIRMAN: I had not intended to call the hon. Member's Amendment, but I had intended to call the Amendment in tJhe name of the hon. Member for Aldershot (Viscount Wolmer)-in line 4, after tJhe word authority to insert the words : and if the local authority at any time after the expiry of the period of five years subsequent to the date of such provision so requires, shall." Sir J. LAMB: l submit, Sir Robert, that there is a difference between these Amendments. The CHAIRMAN: I know. Ther. e are differences between Amendments in all these cases. Sir J. LAMB: While regretting that my Amendment is not to be called, I should like to support the Amendment now before the Comm ittee. I wish, first, to expre ss my tllanks to the Minister for the new Clause even as it is, and it is very larg_ely, I thi11k, because of questions raised in the Comanittee that this Clause has been proposed. The Minister has taken power to allot the management of these estates to the county councils, or to transfer the estates themselves, but he has used the word "may" and tha.t lea,ves the Clause far too wide and too permissive for me. No time is specified, and while I cannot now discuss the Amendment which I have on the Paper, I think it would have been more suitable and would have allowed the Minis t.er more elasticity as to time. Our object is to remove certain objec tions, and the first of these objections is that under this proposal there will be two authorities in the same area, ad ministering holdings. There will be the county council, with the existing h oldings, a,nd the n the Minister will be creating n ew holdings in the same area. The Bill gives greater facilities to those who apply for smallholdings under this 1\f.easure than it has been possible for the county councils to give to tfueir tena.nts, and thus two tenants, perhaps si de b y side, may be working unde r diff erent conditions not only as to occupancy but also as to finance and this may create a se n se -of ill-feeling and injustice as hetween the two. The conditions under which the Minister can create holdings mean that the whole of the loss will b e upon the !Ministry, and, possibly, loca l authorities will cease to create holdings at all in those circumstances. Under existing arrangements, local authorities only receive up to 75 per cent., a,nd consequently 25 per cent. falls on the rates. At the present time, when there is such financial stringency, and such difficulty in keeping down rates, there will be a natural disinclination on the part of local authorities to create holdings, when the Minister can create them without loss to the ratepayers. It is thus possible that the county councils will leave the onus of this duty to the Minister, and, in that case, all the officials at present in the counties for this purpose will remain, while another set of officials will be brought in to create and operate the new holdings. The local authorities now have their staffs of trained men, who are able to manage these holdings very much better than anybody who may be brought in without local knowledge of the area. It has been said by the Minister that there are 27,521 smallholdings under the authority of the county councils, and land to the extent of approximately 5 00,000 acres, is under the control of those bodies. The officials in charge of those holdings know the varying conditions as between different districts :md that is a great asset of which the Minister will deprive himself unless he utilises their services and hands over these holdings to them as early as possible The Minister may create an estate on land adj oining an existing estate of smallholdings and thus there will be two different sets of holdings adjacent to each other. The men who are going on to these holdings will have a difficult task to make them pay. They w ill r equire all the assistance which they can get-both smallholders and allotment holders-and in the counties we now have the officials who are b est qualified to give advice, and who know the local conditions. Those officials are already engaged in assisting local smallholders and 'allotment holders unde r education authorities and in connection with farming schoo ls. What necessity i s the r e to duplicate all these officials 1 I think we have a right to ask not only that this new Clause should be added to the Bill, but that there should be some definite statement a s to the time when these allotments will be turned over to the local authorities.

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335 Lancl 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (U Bill. The Minister may &ay tJhat no reason ruble Minister would do what has ibeen suggested. On the other hand, Ministers come and Ministers go, particularly at the Ministry of Agriculture, and in my short experience of this House, I have had the pleasure of 'knowing several Ministers of Agricuiture. I may say, without offence, tJh&t there is no guarantee that the p.re:sent Minister is going to stay there very long, and the Minister who follows him may not be bound by any suggestion s lhe makes now or any under he personally may phce !himself. It is better to have these in black and white. As I have said beifore, there is a great deal of nationalisation behmd tlhi. s Bill. Hon. Memlbers opposite are, of course, entrtle d to their views, and I hope I am entitle d to mine. lt may be that there is no inte ntio.n to 'turn tJhese holdings over to .the county coflmcil.s at all, but instead to make them into one large estate under the Ministry with the idea, ultimately, of controlling the whole .o, tfue }and of the country. I do not think we ought to run that risk. Our in the prust has been tJha t the Min,ist r y, whe n they have had lhoJ:d,ings, as und:er the Smallhold ing Colonies Act have retained therm too long, and that if those holdings had been turned over to the countie.s sooner, considera.ble losses would have :been avoided. I hope tlhe Minister will wc cerpt at least one od' these Amendments. Sir B. PETO : There is one que,stion I want to ask. Tlhe Minister spoke of the development of this policy." Doe's that indicate that it is the ultima:te policy of the Minis,ter of, Agri.curture to take over the whole of the smalllh,oldrings in the country or not 7 It has ;been pointed out that it is, O'bviously, unde.sirable to have two sets Of 'smallhol-dings under bwo financial conditions runnin;g s ide by Gide at the same time. Is the Minister going to refuse to hand back the SI!IlalLholdings to the administration of the couruty counciLs 7 I ask !him to let the Committee know be,fore we go to a Division what was meant by the plb.raM develop m ent o.f this policy." Doe.s that mean that it i s .the d efinite pm1pose of the Bill to do away with smallholdings under the county councils altogether, and to aibsol'b thean in one great department administered by a Department of State 1 Tlhat leads me to another o:bvi.ous ques bion, wihich is whethe r the development of this policy m eans ultimate nationalisa tion 7 Question put, "That the wofd 'may' stand part or the ClaUJse." The Committee divided: Ayes, 252; Noes, 123 Division No. 143.] Adamson, Rt. Hon. w. (File, West) Adamson, W. M. (Stan., Cannock) Addlson, Rt. Hon. Dr. Chrlstopher Ailchison, Rt. Hon. Craigie M. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (HIIIsbro') Angell, Sir Norman AYES. [9.27 p.m. Arnott, John A s ke, Sir Robert Attl e e, Clement Richard Ayles, Waiter Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Baldwln, Ollver ( Dudley) Barnes Alfred John Batey, Joseph Bell amy, Albert Bennett, Sir E N. (Cardiff, Central) Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Benson, G. Blindell, James Bondlleld, Rt. Hon. Margaret Bowen, J. W. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Bro ad, Francls Alfred Brockway, A. Fanner Bromfleld, Wllllam Bromley, J. Brooke, W. Brothers, M. Brown, Ernest (Leith) Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Buchanan, G. Burgess, F G. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Calne, Derwent Hall Cameron, A. G. Cape, Thomas Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Charleton, H. C. Clarke, J. S Cluse, W. S. Cocks, Frederlck Seymour Complon, Joseph Cove, Willlam G. Cripps, Sir Stafford Daggar, Georga Dallas, George Davles, E. C. (Montgomery) Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Day, Harry Dudgeon, MaJor C R Dukes, C. Ede, James Chuter Edmunds, J. E. Edwards, C. (M onmouth, Bedwellty) Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Egan, W. H. Capt. Ernest (Welsh Onlver 1 Foot, haac Forgan, Dr. Robert Freeman, Peter Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)' G lbblns, Jose ph Glbson, H. M. (Lanes, Mossley) Gill, T. H. Gossling, A. G. Gould, F Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Graha m, Rt. Hon. Wm. ( Edin .,Cent.) Granville, E. Gray, M liner Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Grlllith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Groves, Thomas E. Grundy, Thomas W Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanto'n) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) H a ll, J. H. (Whilechapel) Hall, Capt. W. G (Portsmouth, C.) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Biackburn) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Ze!!and) Hardie, George D H a rris, P e rcy A. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Dr. Somervllle HayC
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337 Agricultural Land Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Herriotts, J. Hlrst, G. H. (York W R. Wentworth) H lrst, W. (Bradford, South) Hoffman, P. C. Hopkin, Daniel H ore-Belisha, Leslle Horrabin, J. F. Hudson, James H (Huddersfield) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Jenkins, Sir William John, William (Rhondda, West) Jones, F. Llewellyn-(Flint) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Sllvertownl Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Ked ward, R. M. (Kent, Ashlord) Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Klnley, J. Klrkwood, D. Lang, Gordon Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Lathan, G. Law, Albert (Bolton) Law, A. ( Rossendale) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Sialybrldge) Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Leach W. Lee Frank (Derby, N E.) Lee, Jennle (Lanark, Northern) Lees, J. Lewls, T. (Southampton) Longbottom, A. W. Longden, F. Macdonald, Gordon (Inca) MacDonald, Malcolm (Baasetlaw) McEntee, V. L. McKinlay, A. Maclea n, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Maclean, N e ll (Glasgow, Govan) MacNeiiiWeir, L McShane, John James Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) M and er, Geoffrey le M. Manslield, W. Marcus, M. Markham, S. F. Marley, J. Marsh a l!, Fred Malhe rs, George M alters, L. W. Maxton, J ames Acland Troyte, Lleut.-Colonel Alnsworth, Lleui.Col. Charlee Albery, I rvlng James Ashl ey, Lt. -Col. Rt. Hon. Wllfrld W. Atkinson, C. Balfour, G eorge (Hampstea d) Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanel) Bev a n, s. J. (Holborn) Blrchall, Major Sir John Dearman Boothby, R. J. G. Bowater, Col. Sir T Vanslttart Bracken, B. Bralthwalte, Major A. N. Brown, Col. D. c. (N'Ih'l'd., Hexham) Brown. Brlg.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, N ewb'y) Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Campbell, E T. Castle Stewart, Earl of Cautley, Sir Henry S. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn.Sir J.A.(Birm.,W .) Chapman, Sir s. Christie, J. A. Clydesdale, Marquess of Cobb, Sir Cyrll Cohen, M ajor J. Brunei Colvllle, M ajor D. J HOUSE OF OOMMONS Melvllle, Sir James M lddleton, G. Milner, Major J. Montague, Frederlck Morgan, Dr. H. B. Morley, Ralph Morris, Rhys Hopkins Morrls-Jones, Dr. J, H (Denblgh) Mort, D. L. M osley, Lady C. (Stoke-onTrent) Muff, G. Muggerldge, H. T. Murnln, Hugn Noei-Buxton, BaronesG (Norfolk, N.) Oldlield J. R. Oliver, George Harold (llkeston) Ollver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Palln, John Henry Paling, Wllfrld Palmer, E. T. Perry, S. F. Peters, Dr. Sidney John Pethick Lawrence, F. W. Plcton Turbervill, Edlth Pole, Major D. G. Polls, John S. Price, M. P. Pybus, Percy John Quibell, D J K. Ramsay, T B Wilson Rathbone, Eleanor Raynes, W. R. R ichards, R. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Sprlng) Rlley Ben (Dewsbury) Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Ritson, J. Romerll, H. G. Rosbotham, D. S. T. Rowson Guy Salter, Dr. Alfred Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Sanders, W. S. Sawyer, G. F. Scott, James Scrymgeour, E. Scurr, John Sexton, Sir James Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thoma s (Prestonl Sherwood, G. H. Shield, George Wllllam Shiels, Dr. Drummond Shlllaker, J. F. NOES. Courtauld, Major J s. Courthope, Colonel Sir G L Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Crookshank, Cpl. H.( Llndsey,Galnsbro) Croom-Johnson, R. P. Daikeith, E a rl of Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.Col. Sir Godlrey Davies, MaJ. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovll) Dawson, Sir Phillp Dlxey, A. C. Di xon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Duckworth, G. A. V. Dugda l e C apt. T L. Edmondson, Major A. J Ersklne, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.) Ferguson. Sir John Flelden, E. B. Ford, Sir P. J. ForestlerWalker, Sir L. Fremantle, Lleut.-Colonel Francls E Galbralth, J, F. W. Glbson, C G. (Pudsey & Otlev.l Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Grenfell, Edward C (City ot London) Guinness, Rt. Hon. Waiter E Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. (Utilisation) Bin. Shinwell, E. "Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Slmmons, C. J. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Smith, Alfred 038-Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Smith, Frank ( N uneaton) Smith, H B Lees. (Kelghleyl Smith, Rennie ( Penistone) Smith, Tom ( Pontetract) Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Snowdon, Rt. Hon. Philip Sorenscn, R. Stamlord, Thomas w. Stephen, Campbcll Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) Strachey, E. J. St. Loe lilrauss, G R Sulllvan, J. Sutton, J. E. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.I Tinker, John Joseph Toole, Joseph Tout, w. J. Townend, A. E. Vaughan, David Vlant, s. P. Walkden, A. G. Walker, J. W allace, H W. Walklns, F. C Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) Watts-Morqan, U.-Col. D. Wellock, Wllfred Welsh, James {Paisley) Welsh, James C (Coalbridge) West, F. R. Westwood, J oseph White, H. G. Whilel ey, Willrid ( B irm., Ladywoodt Wllll a m s Davld (Swansea, East) Wllllams, Dr. J. H {Lianelly) Wllliams, T. (York, Don Valley) Wllson, C. H. {Sheffield, Attercllfle) Wllson, J. (Oidham) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) Wlnterton, G. E.(Lelcester,Loughb'gh) Wood, Major McKenzle (Banff) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. Mr. Alien Parkinson and Mr. Thurtle. Hammersley, s. s. Hanbury, C. \ Hannon, P atrick Joseph Henry Harvey, M ajor S E (Devon, Totnest Hasl a m Henry C Heneage, Lleut. Colone l Arthur P. Hennessy, MaJor Sir G. R. J Hope, Sir Harry (Forlar) Hudson, Capt. A U. M.( Hackney, N.) Jones, Sir G. W. H (Stoke New'gton) Klndersley, MaJor G M Lamb, Sir J. Q. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Lelghton, Major B E. P. L e w is, Oswa ld (Colch811ter) Llewellln, Major J J. Long, Major Hon. Eric McConnell, Sir Joseph Makins, Brig adier-General E Mason, Colonel Glyn K, M errlma n, Sir F. Boyd Mllchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Monsell, Eyree, Corn. Rt. Hon. Sir B Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T C. R (Ayr) Morrlson, W S. (Glos., Clrencester) Mulrhead, A J. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)

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339 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 340 O'Connor, T. J. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Penny, Sir George Shepperson, Sir Ernes! Whittome Simms, Major-General J. Train, J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement Ward, Lleut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Waterhouse, Captain Charles Wayland, Sir Wllliam A. Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Slnclalr, Col. T. (Queen's u., Bells!) Skelton, A. N. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Ramsbotham, H. Rawson, Sir Cooper Smith, Louis W. (Shemeld, Hallam) Smith, R W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dlne C.) Smlthers, Waldron Wells, Sydney R. Wllson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) WlndsorCIIve, Lleut Colonel George Wlnterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Somerset, Thomas Reld, Davld D. (County Down) Remer, John R. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell Ruggles-Brlse, Lleut.-Colonel E. A. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Salmon, Major I. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) Thomson, sir F. Withers, Sir John James Womersley, W. J. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Klngsley Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Savery, s. S. Titchtield, Major the Marquess of Todd, Capt. A. J. TELLERS FOR THE NOESCaptain Sir George Bowyer and Sir Victor Warrender. Motion made, and Question, That the Clause be added to the Bill," put, and agreed t-o. Bill reported ; as amended, on recom mitta-l, -considered The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. William Adamson): I ibeg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time." Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE: On a point o Order. I would like to draw attention to the fact that only one ihour and twenty minute's is left for the Third Reading, .and, as a great many Members wish to speak, that is a very short time in which to discuss a Bill which has been very much altered in Committee and on the Report stage. I suggest that the Government should give more time. Mr. SPEAKER: There is no point of Order, and it has nothing to do with me. Mr. ADAMSON: This Mea-sure is d e signed to secure the 'better utilisation of the land of this country, and I would remind the House that it deals with matters of fundamental importance to our agricultural SY'Stem. The House could deal with no more important and urgent matter, so fa-r a s agriculture is concerned, than this Bill. If we can deal success full y with the land problem, it will con siderably affect, directly and indirectly, our unemployment statistics. We will restore various parts o.f the country areas which are becoming derelict, and we will affect directly and indirectly the balance of trade and secure grea.ter economic indepen dence for our -c-ountry: The fir -st part o the Bill deals with what is called large-scal e or mechanised farms. For many years, various authorities have urged that an experiment of this kind should be made. There has been, for example the Sel!borne Com mittee, which reported unanimously in favour of this experiment, and I would So. 55 remind hon. Members on the other side of the House that at least three Ministers were on the Committee. The n Professor Orwin, who has been frequently quoted in these Debates as a strong supporter of this pr-oposal, has brought all hi.s knowledg e of agriculture to bear in giving an opinion in favour of large-scale We have the results of oome experience in various ,parts of the world, and, while I am not g.oing so far as to say that large-scale or mechanised farming has been 'successful in every instance, yet this much can be said, that it has the promise of putting certain phases of our agriculture on a better economic foundation. I would emphas ise, before I pass on to deal witJh my next point, that though it is only an experiment, yet it is an experiment which it is well worth undertaking by the people' of this country. Then we come to that phase of the Bill which deals with our under-drained and under nourished land, land which requires re conditioning. The land may be in a 'soured or ill-drained condition for many reasons. The proprietors may b e finan cially unable to keep their property in an up-to-date state or t!hey may be un willing to do so, but in the national interest it is imperative that our great national asset should be kept in good oondition. Thirdly, we come to the question of demonstration areas. Here, in my opinion, li e the most immediate ,and most obvious hopes in the Bill for agriculturi,sts. We have been making experim ents, though not sufficient experiments, with a view to avoiding waste and destroying pests and trying to obtain b e tter products, but, alas, very frequently the discoveries of our laboratories and our colleges take time to filter through to our farmers and smallholders, and the gre.at va1ue of the proviGions for up demonstration areasis tJhat they will be there ready for the farmer and the smallholder to J'

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341 HOUSE OF OOMMON S (Utilisation) Bill. 342 [Mr. Adamson. ] see for themselves what can be done. Fourthly, we have the question of smallholders. For many years past it has been the considered policy of Government after Government to assist in the provision of $mallholdings. This policy of sub-divid ing large estates and large fa1ms has been adopted by nearly every civilised country in the world. A century ago in this country the position was tlhe other way about, but now we, with every other civilised country, are convinced of the urgent necessity of mainta .ining a healthy and contented rural peasantry. It is the smallholder in Denmark who has captured our butter and bacon trade, and it is the smallholder of France and of Spain who floods our markets with early potatoes. Hence the value of this section of the Measure, w\hic h will enable us to put smallholders on the land. It will give us the power of putting the unemployed man or the farmworker on the land as a smallholder and giving him a maintenance grant up to a yea.r for the first year until he begins to get some return from his labours. I estimate that in Scotland we sha ll be able to make provisions for at least 700 families under this section, and, obviously, if that can be continued for a decade, we shall be able to increase the number to 7,000 families, and in the cours e of a lifetime we should change the conditions of the countryside. Fifthly I come to the question of allotments. Here is one of the things which is provided for in this Bill to which every one of us has rendered lip .service ; but this Government has provided the money, and the finding of the money is the acid test of our interest in the development of smallholdings. We propose to give unem ployed men, through local authorities, of course, allotment holdings u p to one acre in extent, and we propose to supply the money for seeds and implements. We also propose to meet the approved expenses of local authorities who engage i n the provision of these allotments. Taken as a whole, I may fairly claim that this Bill deals in a broad and compre h ensive way with the major problems of the soil so far as its productive c apacity is concerned. I do not urge that this Measure, taken by itself, will be able to f!olve all the problems of agriculture, but t aken in conjunction with our Marketing Bill, our Smallholders and Agricultural Holdings Bill, our Livestock Licensing Bill, with the great scientific experiments such as the milk investiga tion in which we are conducting and the development of the grading and marking of beef, and taken in conjunction with other Measures whic:1; the Government has already declared its intention to promote, I think we can fairly claim that we are doing everything--Mr. CA MPBEL.L: Everybody! Mr. ADAMSON: -to give this greatest industry and those who work on the soil the opportunity of earning a decent and economic livelihood. I am proud to have been associated with this great effort, greater, I may add, than is being made by any Government in the world to-day to place agriculture on a sound and e fficient basis Captain CROOKSHANK: I have not been carried away by the right hon. Gentleman's claim that he was supporting a Measure before the House dealing with the problems of the soil. I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman's statement that the Bill wQuld affect the balance of our trade. I shall oppose the Measure. I will not move "That the Bill be read the Third time upon this day six months," because it is so bad that we do not desire to see it again. We have had long Debates on the Measure, we have had the kangaroo closure in Com mittee and a n all-night sitting, and, as I have listened to those Debates, I hav e been reminded of the old question that used to be in dispute among philosophers as to whether it is the hen or the egg which comes first. All should be concerned to try to place agriculture upon a b etter footing and make an endeavour to .secure a more prosperous future for the industry. Right hon. and hon. Gentleme n oppo site, and those sitting on the Liberal benches seem to take the view that all you have to do in order to bring back prosperity to agriculture is t o alter the tenure o land and the system of marketing. Those sitting on this si d e of the House believ e that it can only be done by concentrating efforts on a solution of the problem of prices and seeing what can be done to make agriculture profitabl e to those on the land, who at the present time are scarcely able to secure an existence at all. Tha t is the fundamental

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343 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 344 difference between the two sides of the benches opposite. We on this side object House, and that difference is fully borne to the Measure, first of all, because it is out by the agricultural measures which hopelessly bureaucratic, and will promote we h::we been discussing this week. a great increase in the number of Gov-Let me remind the House what it is ernment officials. That is inherent in the that this Measure proposes. It proposes development of a Socialist policy. We to set up demonstration farms. That also object to the policy of the Liberal experiment has no bearing whatever on party who ought to know better than to the problem of how to make both ends desert the;r former policy of being unmeet with which the farmers are faced. bending supporters ;, individuality and For whose benefit has this Bill been freedom. What are the Liberals doing in frlllmed 1 It is not fo.r the benefit of small-regard to this M8asure? Our first objecholders or allotment holders. As a tion to the Bill is to the bureaucratic matter of fact, it is no use to them to methods which arc bound to follow from have demonstration farms. This Measure all Measures of this kind. is of no particular advantage to existing Our second objection is that the holders of land who are farming on a Minister of Agriculture is well known as large scale. The fact remains in spite the champion spender, and in this policy of the Prime Minister's stnctures that he is being aided and abetted by the the people on the land know more about Members of t .he Liberal party, who have their business than anything that can be already told us that there is a great deal taught them by right hon. Gentleman of money to be spent wh ich the Treasury and hon. Gentlemen opposite. will not see again. The Financial SecreWith regard to smallholders, it is tary to the Treasury told us this afteragreed that there is some advantage in noon that he did not expect that the exdeveloping that movement. The Minister penditure under this Bill would be en of Agriculture has told us that this tirely remunerative. Our trouble is that Measure will .settle 700 familie-s per it is going to be frightfully expensive in annum on the land. That statement the opposite direction. The inister of shows how useless this Measure will b e Agriculture said that he expected to get as a relief to unemployment. When we a great deal from the Treasury and that come to the question of allotments, many he was sorry that he .did not ask for of us cannot help thinking that, good as more. I do not think the present Ohan the movement is, and desirous as we are cellor of the Exchequer while he is in of helping, the Government cannot base o ffice he will allow the Mini ster of Agritheir Measure on the success of an ex-culture to -run away with too much of his periment carried out under specia l circash. We have been told by experts that cumstances in South Wales. What anybody who can make 3 per cent. interapplies there does not apply equally well est on money invested in land will b e in other parts of the country. The doing very well, and that the State will Minister of Agriculture always seems to do very well if it can get a similar me to be in doubt as to return. 10.0 p.m. whether he is the Minister of Anothe r point to which ll!ttention must Agriculture or whether he is, be di1'ected is the powers that are to be as in former days, following the medical found in Clause 3 of the Bill. This point profession. He seems to say to the agri-w i ll he dealt with more a,deq uately by cultura l industry, "You are very si ck oth e r speakel's, but we must remember take this pill, and it will do you good." ;that the Minister is taking powers which In my view, the agricultural industry reit is an outrage to confer upon any quires a strong chest protector acrainst Department. The primary object of this the foreign winds that come the M ensure se.ems to wobble between the seas. Instead of giving us protection of relief of unemployment and land settlethat kind, the right h o n Gentleman prement. At the present time, it does not scribes a r e d pill labelled "nationalisa-incline much in either direction. W e find tion." that the numbe r of unemployed at the You cannot find anyone in an agricul-present time is 2,624,000, and tha. t total tural constituency who wants this is increasing rut the rate of 30,000 per Measure. The only people who appear to week. Ther!e is nothing in this Bill wm want it are the theorists who sit on the mensura.te with the problem with which So. 55 F 2

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345 Land HOUSE OF OOMMONS (U Bill. 346 [Captain Crookshank.] the Government is faced. It is a bad Bill. It cannot help agriJcultur.e. It cannot he.lp the agricuHural worker. It certainly cannot help the farrmer, and it canno.t mak!e farming pay. It is undoubtedly going to throw a great burden on the taxpayer, and hurry on the nwtiona.l bankruptcy to which we are rapidly heading under the Government. It is the worst of all forms of legislation, because it is a hybrid between the Liberal party and the Socialist party. It is a Me
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S47 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 348 transfer a great deal of the weight from one scale to the other. But there is a sort of defeatist attitude on land settlement On the benches above the Hang way. Hon. Members above the Gangway are full of gloomy prophecieS and fore bodings. There is a sort of idea that you cannot make the urban worker into an agriculturist unless he he born again, except of cour.se in the Dominions. There the impossible becomes the pos sible, and even the miner, if he be in Saskatchewan or Assiniboia, will, -some how or other, adapt h imse lf to a country life. But it i s a very differ ent proposition to settle miners on the British countryside. You may send them to training centres, you may give them every facility, but, somehow Or other, it i.s going to he almost impossible for them to adapt themse lves to a c ountry li fe And yet it is a very curious thing that the history Df t h e past few year.s has shown us how fatally easy it is for an agricultural labourer, without any training what soever, to adwpt himself to an urban occupation. Hon. Members above the Gangway say that there will be failure s. Of cours e, there will ibe failures. The hon. M e m ber who has just sat down said that my right hon. Friend the Member for Car narvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) -[HoN. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! "] said that s o m e of this money would n e ver ibe seen .again by the Treasury. I do not d e fend the right hon. !MEMB ERS : "Hear, hear "]-I think he is quite capable of doing that himse.I. But I would say that in this case, as, I think, in many other cases, he is facing realiti es. Of course, there will be failures. You can never effect a material change in the halance of population unless you are prepared t o face risks, and also to face a certain a m ount of loss. At the .same time, we had one very senious objection to the Bill as it was originally drafted, and that was that t h e agricultural laoourer was exclude d f rom the ben efi t s that were to be given to o t hers. The people who k now about the land were to be exclud e d, and the people who know l es s or nothing about the land were to be given special facilities settl e d in the countryside. .We b e li eve that that discrimination, if it had been made would have given r i s e to a very great sense of injustice among the agricultural workers in the country. Every-one is glad th8Jt the unemployed, who have been through hard and bitter times, should h .ave this opportunity of reinstatement and a fresh chance in life; but it would have been neither equitable nor jusot to do it at the expense of the lowest paid worker in industry. It would have been a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. We are not told whether it created any ill feeling between them, but there are nDt m any of us in that h istoric su ccession, and I feel quite sure that this would have created a very deep and a.biding resentment between ilie unemployed man and woman and the agricultural worker, which we think would have been justified. Many of these labourers have, after a ll, been anxious and eager to get a sma llholding for years, and they have not had the capital to enable them to do so. It is not reasonable to expect that an agricultural labourer can save enouglh Out of 3ls. a week to secure a holding, to equip it, and to maintain it f or that first year which, after all, is the trial year. However frugal, however self denying they may be, it is impossible for them to do it. Under this Bill they would have been passed over, and all that financial assistance and all the benefits whiclh they have been awaiting would ):!ave been given to others. W e are very glad that the C ommittee upstairs and this House have accep t e d, without Division, the Claus e which brings the agricultural labourer into this Bill. I know that the right hon. G entleman had grave misgivings about it at one t ime. H e had many f ears. W e think that they were He warned u s that he mi ght find it necessary to hedge the Clause round with safeguards. I believe that, if the fe e ling in the Committee upstairs had b een reciprocated in this House, thDse safeguards would h a v e b ee n blown sky hig h, and I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman lh.as, instead, decided to throw them to t h e winds himself I think it is good that t h e agricultural labourer should be given this first measure of justice, and that it should not b e given as a half measure with a grudge, but as a whole measure with a goo d grace. The riglht hon. Gentleman said in the Committee upstairs that h e did not want to be a

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349 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMONS (UWisation) Bill. .'!5G [Miss Lloyd George.] party to offering a man something that he could not supply. I do hope that he is not going to be guided in this matter by the principle of Many .an1 called, but few are chosen." Even if the whole of the 2,500,000 work less, and the 200,000 -agricultural workers -which was the figure that the right hon. Gentleman calculated-were settled on the l'and, the percentage of our population on the land would still be less than it is in Belgium. I hope very much that ne will make his calculations on a bl1oad basis. We believe this new Ciause is justified. After all, for half-a.century we have had the workers moving from the countryside into the towns, simply because there is no inducement to them to remain on the land. We think this Bill in its original form would have done nothing to check that migration; .indeed, it might have encouraged it, because it would have been, perhaps, the only chance the agricultural labourers would have had of securing holdings. It would at least have made them eligible for a holding. It may be said that by this Bill you are denuding the countryside of the ordinary agricultural worker. I know of no policy that could be devised that would do that more effectively than the policy which we have been pursuing for the past few years, a policy which has desolated many villages in many parts of the country as effectively as any plague could possibly have done. It may be argued that this has a very negligible effect on the actual figures of unemployment, yet, when you compare two figures which I should like to give the House, it has a very great significance The first is that, during the peak period, 12,000 labourers on an average have left the land every year. The second is that in very nearly two years the Government have only suc ceeded in providing work for 86,000 men, and yet in tliose two years 24,000 labourers have left the land. There is one fact which the Ministry';; returns show which is more ominous than any other. It is that in the last nine years the regular male workers on the l'and under 21 have declined by 23 per cent. I think the House will agree that that figure proves more accurately than any argument coufci do that the young men will not be satisfied with a career which starts and ends, 'as far as they can see, with a wage of 31s.. So in everincreasing number-s they make their effective protest by going to seek at least a better fortune in the towns, and, whether they are successful in obtaining work or not, either way they make longer the queue outside the Employment Exchange. We think it is worth a good deal to give these men an inducement to stay on the land. We on these benches congratulate the Minister on his courage in bringing forward this Bill. Whether it will be an: effective Measure to deal with unemployment depends upon him and, to a greater extent, upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He is master of all the forms of intimidation that are known. As far as I can see, the Trade Disputes Act of 1927 has not affected his powers very much. We hope there will be no peace ful picketing of the right hon. Gentleman at the doors of the Treasury. We believe it is n good machine, but we hope that it will not be kept in the garage, that it will not be merely for the show r oom to show what the Labour Government can do, but that it will be used to carry large numbers of the se rather weary and dis illusioned travellers to a more hopeful destination. Lieut.-Colonel W!NDSOR-CLIVE: We have every cause to complain of the manner in whidh the Government have dealt with thi's Bill. A:fter entrusting the Chairman of the Committee upstairs with tJhe power of the Kangaroo Closure, they ought to have given ample time for a discussion o.f this Bill on tJhe Report stage. It is o :bvious that they have not done s o, be,cause !here we are with only one hour and 20 minutes le!ft for the Tlhird Reading of the Bill. We have had to preSS' two days' work into one, and have an all-niglht sitting as well. During that all-night sitting I do no t think that the Minister's handling of the Bill was good. He might have s!hort.ened our proceedings during the night very considerably if lhe had accepted at once a cert.ain Amendment, for which he allowed the House two hours' dis cus,sion. Also, during last W edne.sday night, ther. e might have been a good deal lesS tal:k if we had \had more as.sistance from the Lruw Officers of tlhe Crown. We are delighted to see the learned make one of his

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851 Agricultuml Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) Bill. 352 rare visits to. the, Treasury Bench during the course of this Bill. I am afraid that not even -the eloquent srpeech of tlhe Secretary o:f State for Scotland can br)i!ng good into thios Bill, altJhough jf there was anything good in it the, delightful srpeech of the hon. Lady the Member for Anglesey (Miss Lloy;d Gemge) would !have done it. I o:bject to this Bill because it involves such a very large eXJpendi ture which we cannu t aff.ord and' wlhich : gives, as far as I can see, n o correspond ing benefit to agriculture Sure ly, 1t ought to be an aocepted principle that there should be no increase in national expenditure exeept what is e ssential to give assista.nce to productive industry. Thi:s Bill certainly does not perform that function It d'Oes notlhing whatever to m a k e farming pay. I b erie:ve the pro vision for large-1:>cale :farming to b e e n tirely unnecessary in this country. Tlhe only certain result which we know will come from it will be that there will be a re.duct>ion in the numJber of men em ployed on the land. The Defbate on the. Amendment to the word let in Olause 1 (2, c) show ed! very clearly tlhat by this BilL tJher e is being e stab lished machinery which ican le-ad to nationalisation. The hon. Me:mlber for Anglesey rather ta.unted us with the bogey of Stalin .. We cannot get Stallin a ll at once. Is this no t the first st8ip in tJhat direction? .'f!nder Clauses 2 and 3 there is VISIOn for the expenditure of ,700,000. I make no apology for repe.ating what has been said before on this Bill. I do not see the use of expending! all this money to reco ?-dition land which cannot properly h e cultivated when you have done it. If the Governmen t would take steps to fulfil own pledge to make farming pay, It would not be n ecessary to Spend so much public money on reconditioning tJhe land. With regard to smallholders, the hon. Lady said that we were d e featist's and p essimists in regard to the subject. If we look at the plight of so many of these people who h ave sp ent m any years upon the land, we have some justification for being rathe r .pessimisti c M-bout it at present. She said that we only applauded smallholdings in tlhe D o minion s, but, at any rate, the D o minion s .see to it that the i r producers are not exposed to the full blas t of forei g n comp etition. This Bill does nothing whatever to make farm ing pay. That being so I oppose it on the ground that it is a very gross waste of public money. Mr. GUINNESS: At this late hour and with so short a time available for the Third Reading Debate it is impossible to attempt to deal with tJhe vicious pro posals in this Bill. I wish to devote the few moments at my dispo-sal to a protest against the methods which the Govern ment have used to drive the Bill through the Ho nose of Commons. We all know that the origin of this B.ill was not in .any way agricultural. It was purely political. We politicians are sometimes said to be rather self-centred, but no one, [h,owever satisfied he may be with his political convictions, on the other side of the House can be under any delusions tha t this Bill haos g :ot any agricultural opinion behind it. It is criticised by the overwhelming mass of those who live' by the land. But the opposition of the a.gri cultural industry has only stimulated the Government in their determination to force the Bill tlhrough and to defeat any attempt at argument by means of the Kangaroo and the .Olosure. This Gov ernment, who are a l way s bemoa.ning their f ate as a minority Government, h ave denied the liberty of Debate in a way that has never been attempted before. [HoN. MEMBERS: "You had all night!"] I will c ome t o the ail night sitting. That wws not free di sc ussion That was a way o f preventing public knowl edge o f wh.at is proposed in this Bill. There has been n o free discussion. There has been very little public ventila tion of the dangers involved to the agri cultural industry by the proposals in the Bill. We are accustomed t o the K angaroo procedure on the Floor of the House, but in connection with this B.ill it h a s been applied under unprecedented conditions upstairs. Afte r curtailment of debate in Committee upstairs, we naturally expected that there would at least be a n orma l opportunity of discuss ing the Bill on the Floor o f the H ouse, but the Go vernment, after the extra ordinary procedure upstairs, demanded that a Bill which h a(i taken 1 2 days in Committee should be given only three days for the remaining stages on the Floor of the House. It was impossible, even with the utmost efforts to avoid any kind of unnecessary debate, to compress the discussion into so short a period.

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353 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF COMMO::-.ib (Utilisation) Bill. 354 [Mr. Guinness.] We finally got four days. How did the Government compress the Debate into this very short period They forced us to sit for nine hours after the normal time for the rising of the House-more than equivalent to a full Parliamentary day. The Minister of Agriculture has got, as we all know, a very disarming manner, but if you cover the tyres of a steam roller with velvet you do not any way prevent its crushing effect. His method has been absolutely to stifle discussion. He gave away his methods in the early hours of the morning, when we sat up all night. He told us that Clauses 1, 2 and 3 were the most important part of the Bill. He securea that important part of the Bill, or a very great part of it, at a time when there could be no adequate Press report, and when the House was 'in no physical condition to give proper consideration to it. We were considering Clause (1) from 11 o'clock till 2; Clause (2) from 2 a.m. to 4 a.m. ; and Clause (3) from 4 a m. t o 8 a.m. And we are to have two Government speeches on the Third Reading Debate, which is to last one hour and 20 minutes. I do not remember any Government Bill being supported on Third Reading by two Government speeches. The history of this Bill in this House will, I hope, be realised when it reaches another p]ace --[lnterruption.] I am glad to be able to stress the stifling of Parliamentary Debate by the methods adopted in connection with this Bill for the information of both agriculturists rin the country and the other place, so that they may realise that the Government has arbitrarily refused the normal right of the House of Commons to deliberate this Measure, and may give it their special consideration. The Bill retains all its original blemishes. Part I is absolutely use l ess for the object proposed, the assistance of agriculture. >AThere the experiment can be usefully applied it has already been carried out, and there is no case for this :large i\Xp
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355 Agricultural Land 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Utilisation) B i ll. 356 are going to carry out the programme of the Liberal party. We had figures given in the Liberal programme of 100,000 and even 200,000 families to be settle d on the land. Under this Bill every thousand fami lies so settled will cost at least ,000,000. So if we are to have 200,000 families settled it means an expenditure of ,000,000. iW e were told by the Financial S-ecre tary to-day-to summarise a rather complicated financial statement-that for every ,000,000 expended the taxpayer would have to face an annual expenditure for 20 years of ,000,000. So if we are to spend money to re-establish on the land 200,000 families, we shall have for 20 years at the peak period an annual expenditure of no less than o,ooo,ooo, borne upon the Vote for Part II of the Bill a lone. We believe that there is nothing in the Bill to help the agriculturist in his present difficulty. There is very little left in the Bill after the acceptance of the Amendment of the hon. Lady the Member for Anglesea (lVliss Lloyd George) to provide any assistance in the matter of unemployment, because quite properly, after that Amendment, the first consideration must be given to those who live o n the land. At a moment when public opinion demands that there should be a decrease in our present expenditure in order to give our industries a chance of re-establishing themselves, this Bill would throw on us a burden of huge and growin g financial commitments. It is an interesting first-fruit of the Liberal and Socialist delusion that our agricultural and industrial depression can be cured by borrowing money and spending it on uneconomic purposes. Dr. ADDISON: Before I come to the more co ntroversi a l portions of the right hon. Gentleman's sp eech I will, in accordance with my promise, make a short statement to the H ouse with respect to the progress of the allotments part <:> this sche me. I may say in response to the Noble Lord the M em ber for Aldershot (Vi scount Wolmer) that I have made inquiries and I find that we have every r easo n t{) adhere to our origina.l anticipation of providing material fo r 100,000 allotments. It is still early in the day to deal with these matters and m a n y authorities have not yet comp l e ted their purchases, but, generally speaking, and by the help of all parties, I must say we are receiving the promptest a;ssistance. As a matter of fact, as showing how mistaken some of my Scottish colleagues would !have !been ha.d they carried that Amendment which would have limited expenditure in Scotland to eleveneightieths, my information is that Sir William Waterlow to-night accompanied by one of the officers of the Department is on his way to .Scotland to .buy 1,000 tons of seed potatoes. May I, at his request, ma.ke an appeal w Members in every part of the House-because I recog nise that Members on all sides are supporting the allotments part {)f the scheme -that in any districts where the authorities are not yet active in this matter, Members will do their best to stir up those authorities, and will tell those authorities to get into association with our Allo-tments Committee. With regard to the progress of small lholdings, I do not commit myself to the kind of figures which the right hon. Gentleman the Member or Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Guinness) mentioned. First may I say that the whol e House w ill agree with m e in paying a tdbute to the hon. Lady the Member for Angle sey (Miss Lloyd George) w ho presented her case with such .singular felicity. I think I may say that we recognised some spa-rks from an old and rather familiar anvil. Whilst as I say I cannot f.ollow the right hon. Gentleman in his predictions I would take upon myself the responsibility of saying, at this last moment, that I recognise that, in providing a large number of .smallholdings, you are embarking upon an enterprise which necessarily requires time for fulfilment and I sincerely hope, whatever may happen herea-fter, -that this great project will not be interrupted. We propose that if we can to start it upon lines which everyone will recognise as .sound, and which we hope will be continued, ibut, with the best will in the world, it take s time first to select your applicants and then to obtain the land -much of the la.nd in this country being only vacated .at Michaelma-s and Lady Day-and when you have obtained posses sion of the land to subdivide it and build houses and so forth. I wish the House to recognise that we a.re fully conversant with thes e realities and we know that they will take time, but the fact

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357 Agricultural Land HOUSE OF OO:M:MONS (Utilisation) Bill. 358 [Dr. Addison.] that they exist only means that we must tackle them with courage and with vision beforehand. As far as we are concerned, while recognising the physical limitations in early days, we intend to do our very best to give full effect to the intention of Parliament in this matter. I am quite sure that if in the early months or years we can develop a system which is sound in its working and in its machinery as regards equipment, land, the provision of staffs and capital, we shall have started an organisation which not even a hostile Government will dare to bring to a standstill. I do not take the view of this Bill that the right hon. Gentleman does ; nor does the majority of the House. 1 cannot understand how it is arrived at because, notwithstanding all the denunciations we have heard, every Member of the House will recognise that no argument has been addressed to con vince us that it was wrong to try to bring unemployed men, where suitable, to work on the land. The right hon. Gentleman took the gross cost of smallh
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359 Agricultural Land Division No. 144.] Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Altchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgle M. Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hlllsbro't Alpass, J. H. Angell, Si1 Norman Arnott, John Aske, Sir Robcrt Attlee, Clement Richard Ayles, Waiter Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bliston) Baldwin, Oliver ( Dudley) Barnes, Alfred Johio Barr, Jamcs Batey, Joseph Bellamy, tllbert Bennett, Sir E N (Cardlft', Central) Bennett, Wllliam (Battenea, South) Benson, G. Bllndell, James Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Bowen, J. W. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Broad, Francis Alfred Brockway, A. Fenner Bromneld, Wllllam Brooke, w. Brothe rs. M. Brown, Er n est (Leith) Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Buchanan, G. Burgess, F. G. Burgln, Dr. E. L. Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Caine, Derwent Hali-Cameron, A. G. Cape, Thomas Carter, w. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Ch Rrleton. H. C Chater, Daniel Clarke, J, S. Cluse, W. S. Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Cocks, Frederlck Seymour Compton. Joseph Cripps, "Sir Stafford Dangar, George Dallas, George Dalton, Hugh Davle s, E C. (Montgomery) Davles. Rhys John (Westhoughton) Day, Harry Dudgeon, M a) or C. R. Dukes, c. Duncan, Charles Ede, James Chuter Edmunds, J E. Edwa rds, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Edwa ds E. (M orpeth) Egan, W. H. Elmley, Viscount Evans, C apt. Ernes! (Welsh Unlver.) Foot, lsaac Forgan, Dr. Freeman, Peter Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Carvn) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Glbblns, Joseph Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) Gill, T H. Glllett, George M. Glassey, A. E. Gossling, A. G. Gould, F. G.-aham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Graham. Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) G r a nvllle, E. Gray, M liner Greenwood Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Grlffith, F Klngsley (Middlesbro' W.J 10 FEBRUARY 1931 AYES. Grlffiths T. (M onmouth, Pontypool) Groves, Thomas E. Grundy, Thomas W. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) Hall, J H. (Whltechapel) Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C ) Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Biackburn) Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland) Hardie, Gcorge D. H arris, Percy A. Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Hastings, Dr. Someville Haycock, A. w. Hayday, Arthur Hayea, John Henry Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley) Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardilf, S.) Hendcrson, Thomas (Glasgow) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Herrlotts, J. Hlrst, G. H. (York, W.R.,Wentworth) H lrst, W. (Bradford, South) Hoffman, P. c. Holllns, A. Hopkln, Daniel H ore Belisha, Leslle Horrahln, 1. F. Hudson, James H. {Huddersfield) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Hutchison, Maj.Gen. Sir R. lsaacs, George Jenkins, Sir William John, William (Rhondda, West) Johnston, Thomas Jones, F. Uewellyn (Flint) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merloneth) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Joncs. Morgan (Caerphilly) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Jowitt, Sir W A. (l>reston) Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Kenworthy, Lt.Com. Hon. Joseph M. Klnley, J. K!rlcwood, D. Knight. Hollord Lang, Gordon Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Lathan. G. Law, Albert (Bolton) Law, A ( Rossend a le) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Lawson, John James Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Leach, W. Lee, Franlc (Derby, N .E.l Lee, Jennle (Lanark, Northorn) Lees, J. Lewis, T. ( Southampton) Lloyd, C. Ellls Logan, Davld Gilbert Long bottom, A. W. Longden. F. Lunn, Wllliam Macdonald, Gordon (lnce) 'if!acDonald Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Macdonald, Sir M (Inverness) McEiwee, A McEntee, V. L. McKinlay, A Mac Laren, An drew Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) McShane, John Jamee Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Mansfie ld. w. Marcus, M. Markham, S. F. M arley, J M arsha ll Fred M at hers, George Matters, L. W. (Utilisation) BiZZ. il&l M axton, James Melville, Sir James M lddleton, G. Mills, J. E. M liner, Major J. [11.0 p.m. M ontague, F rederick Morgan, Dr. H. ll. Morlcy, Ralph Morris, Rhys Hopklns Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Morrlson, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Mort, D. L. Mosley, Lady C. (StokP.onTrent) Muff, G. Muggerldge, H. T. Murnin, Hugh Naylor, T. E. Newm a n, Sir R H S D. L (Exeter) Noel Baker, P. J. NoeiBuxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Oldfield, J. R. Cllver, George Harold (llkestc>n) Olivcr, 1'. M. (Man., Blackley) Owen, MaJor G (Carnarvon) Palin. John Henry Pal mer, E. T. Perry, S. F. Peters, Dr. Sldney John Pethick-Lawrence. F. W. Phillips, Dr. Marion Picton Turbervill, Edith Pole, Major D. G. Polls, John S. Price, M. P. Pybus, Percy John Quibell, D J. K. Ramsay, T. B. Wllaon Rathbone, Eleancr Raynes, W. R. Rlchards, R. Rlchardson, R. (Houghton-leSprlng) Riley, f F (Stockton-onTees) Ritson, J. Romeril, H. G. Rosbotham. D. S. T. flothschlld, J, dl Rowson, Guy Salter, Dr. Alfred Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Sanders, W. S. Sawyer, G. F. Scott, James Scrymgeour, E. Scurr, John Sexton, Sir James Shaw. Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Shepherd, Arthur Lewls Sherwood, G. H. Shield, George William Shlels. Dr. Drumm o nd Shillaker, J. F. Shinwell, E. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) 'Simmons, C. J Slnclalr, Sir A. (Caithness) Sitch, Charles H. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland) Smith, Ben ( Bermondsey, Rotherhlthe) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Smith, R ennie (Penistone) Smith, Tom ( Pontefract) Smith. W. R. (Norwich) Snowden, Rt. Hon. Phlllp Snowden, Thomas (Accrlngton) Sorensen,, R. Stamford, Thomas W. Stephen, Campbell Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Stra u ss, G. R. Sulllvan, J. Sutton, J. E. Taylor, R. A. {Lincoln) T aylor, W. B (Norfolk, S.W.)

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361 Agricultural Land Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Thurtle, Ernes! Tinker, John Joseph Toole, Joseph Tout, w. J. Townend, A. E. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Vaughan, Davld Viant, S. P. Walkden, A. G. Walker, J. Wallace, H. w. Ac1and Troyte, Lleut-Colonel Ainsworth, Lieut.Col. Charles Albery, I rvlng James Alexander Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent !) Alien, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'I.,W.) Alien, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Ashley, Lt.Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrld W. Astor, Maj. Hon. John J.(Kent, Dover) Atholl, Duches& of Atklnson, c. BalllieHamilton, Hon. Charles W. Baldwin, Rt Hon. Stanl&y (Bewdley) Balfour George (Hampstead) Ballour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanel) Balnlel, Lord Beamlsh, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Beaumont, M. W. Bellalrs, Commander Carlyon Betterton, Sir Henry B. Bevan, s. J. (Holborn) Birchail, Major Sir John Dearman Bird. Ernes! Roy Boolhby, R. J. G. Bourne Captain Robert Croft. Bow ater, Col. Sir T Vansittart Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Boyce, Le&lle Bracken, B. Bralthwalte, Major A. N. Brass, Captain Sir Wlillam Brlscoe, Georoe Brown Col. D C. (N'Ih'l'd., Hexham) Brown. Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) Buch a n-Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan John Bullock, C aptain Malcolm Butler, R. A. Bull. Sir Alfred Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Campbell, E. T. Carver, Major W. H. Castle Stewart, Earl of Cautley Sir Henry S Cayzer, Sir C (Chester, City) C a y ze r, Maj. 'Sir Herb! R. (Prtsmth,S. ) Caz a let, Captain VIctor A. Cecll, Rt Hon Lord H. (Ox. Unlv.) Chadwlck, Capt. Sir Robert Burton Chamberlain, Rt. H n .Slr J .A.( Blrm., W .) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. ( Edgbaston) Chrlstle, J. A. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Wlnston Spencer Clydesdale, Marquess of Cobb, Sir Cyrll Cockerlll, Brlg.-Gencral Sir George Cohen, M a Jor J Brunei Colman, N. C. D. Colvllle, Major D. J. Court a uld, Major J. S. Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L Cranborne, Vi scount Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. Croft. Brigadier-Genera: Sir H. Crookshank, Cpl. H .(Lindsey,Gains bro) Croom Johnson R P. Culvcrwell, C. T. (Bristol West) Cunlllle-Li ster, RI. Hon. Sir Phlllp D a lk elth, Earl ol HOUSE OF COMMONS Watkins, F. C. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) WatlsMorgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Wellock, Willred Welsh, James (Paisley) Welsh, James C. (Coatbrldge) West, F. R. Westwood, Joseph White, H. G. Whiteley, Willrld (Blrm., Ladywood) Wllkinson, Ellen C. Wllllams, Davld (Swansea, East) NOES. Dalrymple-Whlte, Lt.-Col. Sir Godlrey Davies, Dr. Vernon Davles, Maj. Gco F (Somerset,Yeovll) Davlson, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S ) Dawson, Sir Phillp Dixey, A. c. D ixon, Captain RI. Hon. H erbert Duckworth, G. !J V. Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Eden, Captain Anthony Edmondson, Major A. J. Elliot, Major Waiter E. Ersklne, Lord (Somerset, Westons.M .J Everard W. Lindsay Falle, Sir Bertram G. Ferguson, Sir John Fermoy, Lord Flelden, E. B. Flson, F. G. Claverlng Ford, Sir P. J. Forestier Walker, Sir L. Fremantle, Lleut.-Colonel Francls E. Galbralth, J. F. W. Gault, Lleut.-Col. A. Hamilton Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Glyn, Major R. G. C. Gower, Sir Robert Grace, John Graham, Fergus (Cumberland N.) GrattanDoyle, Sir N. Greene, W. P. Crawford Grenlell, Edward C. (City ol London) Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Grltten, W. G. Howard Guinness, Rt. Hon. Waiter E. Gunston, Captain D. W. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglaa H. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwlchl Hamil ton, Sir George (lllord) Hammersley, S. S. Hanbury, C Hannon, Palrlck Joseph Henry 1-larvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnea) Haslam, Henry c. Heneage, Lleut.Colonel Arthur P. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Wailer Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Howa r d-Bury, Colonel C. K. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Hurd, Percy A. lveagh, Countess of Jones Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Klndersley, Major G. M. Knox, Sir Allred Lamb, Sir J. Q. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R L aw, Sir Allred (Derby, 1-Pgh Peak) Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Leighton. Major B. E. P Lewis, Oswald (Colch e ster) Little, Si1 Ernes! Graham Llewellln Major J. J. Locker-Lampson Rt. Hon. Godlrey Locker-Lampson, Corn. 0 ( Handsw'lh) Long, Major Hon. Eric Lymlngton VIscount McConnell, Sir Joseph Macdon a ld, Capt. P. D. (1. of W .) M altland, A. (Kent, Faversham) (Utilisation) Bill. 362 Willlams, Dr. J. H. (Lianelly) Willlams, T. (York, Don Valley) Wllson c. H. (Sheffield, Atterclille) Wilson, J. (Oldham) Wllson, R. J. (Jarrow) Wlnterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) Wise, E. F. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banll) Young, R S. (Islington, North) TELLERS FOR THE A YES ... -Mr. Alien Parkinson and Mr. Paling. Maklns, Bri gadier-General E. Margesson, Captain H. D. Marjorlbanks, Edward Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Meller, R. J Merrlman, Sir F. Boyd M ltchell, Sir W. Lane (Sireatham) M lie hellThomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Moore, Lleut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Clrencester) Muirhead, A. J. Nelson, Sir Frank N ewton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Nicholson, 0. (Westminster) Nichol son Col Rt. Hn.W. G.(Ptrsf'ld) Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert O'Connor, T. J. O"Nelll, Sir H. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. Wi.Jiiam Peake, Capt. Osbert Penny, Sir George Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Power Sir John Cecll Pownall, Sir Assheton Purbrlck, R. Ramsbotham, H. Rawson, 'Sir Cooper Reld, Davld D. (County Down) Remer, John R. Rentoul, Sir Gervals 8. Reynolds, Col. Sir James Rlchardson, Sir P. W. (Sur' y, Ch'te'y) Roberts, Sir Samuel ( EcclesanJ Rodd, Rt. Hon. S i r James Rennell Ross, Major Ronald D. RugglesBrlse, Lleut -Colonel E. A. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouthl Salmon, Major I. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Phlllp A G D Savery, S S 'Shepperson, Sir Ernes! Whittome Simms Major-Gen eral J. Slnclalr, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfat) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Klnc'dine, C.) Smith -Carlngton, Nevllle W Smithers, Waldron Somerset, Thomas Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Somerville, D. G. (WIIIesden, East) Southby, Command e r A R. J SpenderCiay, Colonel H. Stanley, Lord (Fylde) Staniey, Maj. Hnn 0. (W'morland) Steei-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthlr Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Sueter, Re a r-Admiral M. F. Thomas, Major L B. (King's Norton) Thomson, Sir F. Tinne, J. A Tltc hfield, Major the Marquess ol T o dd, C apt. A. J Tra in, J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement

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363 China Indemnity 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Application) Bill. 364 Turton, Robert Hugh Wallace, Capt. D. E. (HornseyJ Ward, Lleut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert Wardlaw-MIIne, J. S. Will lams, Char lea (Devon, Torquay) Wllaon, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) Wlndsor-CIIve, Lleut.-Colonel George Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Worthlngton-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Wrlght, Brlg.-Gen W. D. (Tavlst'k) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hllton Warrender, Sir VIctor Withers, Sir John James TELLERS FOR THE NOES .Commander Sir Bolton Eyres Monsell and Major Sir Georae Hennessy. Waterhouse, Captain Charles Wayland, Sir William A. Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Womersley, W J. Wells, Sydney R. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Klngsley Bill read the Third time, and passed. CHINA INDEMNITY (APPLICATION) BILL. Not amended (in the Standing Com mittee) considered. Lord H U G H C E C I L : I beg to move, That the further consideration of the Bill be now adjourned." I can assure the Government that this Motion is not due to any hostility to the Bill, but merely in order that an opportunity may be given to those are interested in it from an educatwnal point of view to propose such Amendments to the Bill as we think may be required. [HoN. MEMBERS: Speak up; we cannot hear you "] We are anxious that in the arrangements wh1Ch are made in the Bill the interests of Chinese culture in the universities should be considered. No provision is made in the Bill for supporting those studies even in the universities which have already devoted some attention to them. There is provision in the Schedule for ,000 to be given to the universities, and it i s to be administered by a committee which is to be a chartered body. The proposed charter has not yet received the Royal approbation and its exact purport is not yet known. But, as far as it it does not appear to make provision for supporting the studies in Chinese language and culture in the universities which have so far been devoting them selves to the subject, and we are anxious to h ave a full opportunity of thinking the matter over and so being able to formulate whatever Amendment is required to provide that those universities which have already d evoted their atten tion to Chinese culture should receive whatever support can be given to them out of the indemnity. It s e ems rathe r strange, though I have no doubt the Governm ent have good reasons for it, to give ,000 out of the indemnity a body which has not yet any legal ence. This committee has not yet received the Royal Charter, I understand, and it is odd that the Bill should be carried out of the House of Commons to the other House of Parliament with a provisiOn in it which gives ,000 to a body which has not yet any legal position. 'Dherefore, we are anxious for a little time in which to think the thing over, not with the smallest hostility to the Bill or to what the Government design in it, but in order to carry out what, I am sure, they wish as muclh. as we, namely, the cultivation -of Chinese studies in London, and the use of the money for the purpose of such studies. For this reason I have been asked to move a short postponement, of .some days, perhaps, in order that we may look into the matter and formulate our proposals in a more distinct form. I do not know wlh.ether the Government would be prepared to receive a deputation from the universities interested, but I feel sure that, in ever way it may be brought about, there might be a private interchange of counsel between the Government and the univer sities interested, with the object of pro moting this object whidh is c-ommon to us all. I hope that the Government will be able to assent to this Motion, or, if not, to assure us of their co-operation in the o'bject which we have a t heart, w.hich is t;o use tlh.is money to promote a mutual understanding between China and Great Britain by encouraging the study of the Chinese pulture and language in the universities of this c ountry. The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. Dalton): The N able Lord has moved this Motion in a speech with a great part of wlh.ich I am in full sympathy. As he said, the universities have come in this matte r rather late in the day. The Bill was printed before Christmas ; it was read a. Sec-ond time in this House with out a Division; and during the Second Reading D ebate tlhe point whic h the Noble Lord has raised was not made by any of the university representatives in this House. It was then considered l>y a Standing Committee, and the point was raised by my hon. Friend the Mem -

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365 China lndemntty HOUSE OF COMMONS (Application) Bill. 366 [:!VIr. Dalton.] ber for Cambridge University (Sir J. Withers); and I then made a statement on behalf of the Government to the effect that we were advised that it would be competent for tJb.e Universities China Committee to devote some part of the ,000 allocated to them in the Bill to increasing the provision for Chinese teaching in the universities. I had hopes that that satisfied the universities who raised the point. I gather, however, since the Noble Lord has raised the matter again to-night, that they are not completely satisfied, and, in response to the appeal that he made at the end of his speech, I am authorised to say that I myself, or someone else actinsr on behalf of tlb.e Government, will be ready to meet representatives of the universities and discuss the matter. We have taken the view from the beginning that one of the objects not the exclusive object, but one of the ohiects-which should be carried out by Universities China Committee in allocating this money, was an increased provision for the teaching of Chinese in the universities. If it be the case that this is not sufficiently clearly within their competence, we are quite willing to consider what amendment might be made in the Bill in order to put that point beyond question. I cannot, however, tlhe proposal that we should not dispose od' the Bill to-night. I would rather suggest that such a consultation Should take place, and that in another plruce .an Amendment should be moved on belhalf orf tlhe Gov ernment, consequent upon consultation between repre, sentatives of the Government and of the univer Biities. I hope that, that undertaking b eing given, as I ruo unequivo-cally give it, we shall be able to get the final stage's o'f this Bill to-night. There are dependent upon this Bill otlher matters tlhan incre.ased provision for the teach ing o.f 1'here are ,000,000 worth of ordem for British industry, p.nd thes.e we are unw illin g to see post.pon e d any longer than is absolutely ne-cessary. There are other provi,sions also of an educational and industrial clharacter, and the Government attach great im portance to the Bill .foJ.'iward witih the l east po,ssible delay. I hope, in vie1w of the statement I have madeJ the N o.'ble L ord will not press his Motion, but will with other univel'sity re:pre s.entatives, enter into consultation with us for furtlher of the point whi dh still .seems to be in dowbt. Mr. SPEAKER: I have not made up my mind yet whether this is a Money Bill. There is some doubt a,'bout it, and I should not like to 1say off-hand that this wil1 be a Money Bill. If that were the case tlhe House of Lords would :not be a!ble to amend it. The PRESIDENT of the BQARD of TR,(\DE (Mr. Wi!liam Graham): On that point. may I sulbmit that the Bill, of course, imposes no charge. It merely introduces certain variations in the use o,f the fund and it may be that on that basis you will be prepared to indicate nmv that tlher e will be less difficulty in d ealing with it i n another place by way of Amendment, suclh a suggested. Mr. SPEAKER: That is hardly the point. The point is that if the Bill is exclusively a Bill dealing with money 1 have t o certify it as a Money Bill. It does not follow that it makes a charge at all. If it exclusively deals with money I have to certify that it is a Money Bill. Sir AUST'EN CHAMBERLAIN: W e who wish to know the exact conditions in which we are acting are all grateful for the warning that you, Sir, have just addressed to the House. The Government will not wish certainly to offer any undertaking which it would be beyond their power to fulfil. That warning does, I think, very materially alter the situation from what it was. when the Unde r Secretary was speaking, and I would once again press the request made by my hon. Friend in no more unfriendly spirit than that with which he himself presented it, for the hon. Gentleman oppo .site knows I am deeply committed to the general principles and purposes of the Bill, and have its objects quite as much at heart as he has. I would press his request again, so that at least we may be assured that if, as the result of these promises, an Amendment is to be d esired, we may not hav. e put it beyond our power to make that Amendment, and find that it is not within the power of the other House to amend it.

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367 China Indemnity 10 FEBRUARY 1931 (Application) Bill. 368 One other point I would a-sk the hon. Amendments are desirable or not, but Gentleman to consider. I understand I urge that the House should have the from what my N-oble Friend said that the opportunity of considering them if they China Parliamentary Committee is to be cannot be moved in another place. This constituted and its functions defined by seems to be a very strong argument for a Royai Charter. I do not think that the Government to consent to postpone Royal Charter has received the Royal for a short time the Amendments put approval yet and I presume it eannot on the Paper. I do not believe that have been laid before Parliament. Does this Bill is so urgent that a week's post he not think it would be fair to allow ponement will do any harm, and I feel P .arliament to what is the constitution that it is most desirable that there should and what are the powers of the body be a postponement. to which is t-o be entrusted this sum be-Mr. CHURCHILL: Surely we are fore we finally decide whether to leave going to have an answer from the everything to their discretion, or Government whether it is desirable that the House should formally indicate its own wishes as to the form which the expenditure of part of this money should take. I .submit that it really would be improper to part with the Bill without knowing whether the Amendments which the Government are ready to make in another place can be considered by that House ; and it is, in addition, highly desirable that we should have a draft of the Charter before us when determining what powers we entrust to the Committee and what limitations we impose upon those powers. Sir JOHN WITHERS: I wish to reinforce the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich (.Sir Austen Chamberlain). The whole point is a very short one. As far as the Charter which has been indicated to us is concerned it would not enable the committee to make university grants. If that is so, the whole idea of benefiting the university goes by the board. If there is difficulty the Government should appreciate it and enable us to discuss with them the provisions of the Charter, to see whether they have the powers to do wh a t they wish to do. I think there is nothing more to be said on the matter. Captain BOURN.E: I wish to deal for a minute with a point of procedure. In view of your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, I will ask the Government to postpone the consideration of this BiTrfor a short time. If, as you have indicated, this may be a Money Bill it is obvious that it cannot be amended in another place. The UndercSecretary of State for Foreign Affairs, speaking to-night, has indicated that the Government are willing to conside r certain Amendments. I am not in a position to say whether those Mr. GODFREY Wl LSON: It is only fair to explain why at the last moment this question should be brought up. 1 should like to make it clear that it was only last Sunday that the Vice .(..)han cellor of Cambridge University sent for me and showed me a letter he had received from the Secretary of the University Bureau of the British Empire. In this memorandum, there is a draft Charter for the Universities China Com mittee. The purposes which the Universities China Committee are t o follow are laid down, and those purposes, I think, I must b e allowed to read. The purposes of the Universities China Committee, hereinafter called the governing body, shall be:-(1) to co-operate with the universities of the United Kingdom through the Univer sities Bureau in arranging for representative Chi n ese men : and women to vi sit and l ecture in this country and similarly for Britis h m e n and women to v isit and lecture in China; (2) to co-operate with other interested bodies in asssisting Chinese .students in this country to find hospitality and suitable living accommodation; (3) in consultation with the Universities Bureau and with unive r sity and othe r authorities concerned with highe r education to advise Chinese stud en t s as to their course of studies in this country, and as to other ma.tters connected therewith." 'rhis is the important purpose : (4) g enerally to e n courag e intellectua.J co-operation and to promote cultural relations between China and the United King dom. The point wh:ich universities particula.rly desire to press is that of No. 4 he ginning with the word generally," and following very specifically what is mentione d in 1, 2 and 3, which might easily he h eld to exclude the particular purposes which w e have in mind, and i s

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369 China Indemnity HOUSE OF COMMONS (Application) Bill. 370 [Mr. Wilson.] one of the objects of which the Government have also indicated their consent and approval. It is in order to get that point, which only came to our notice a few days a.go, made perfectly clear, that it is being raised at this last moment. Mr. ERN EST BROWN: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree to a postponement of the Debate. The point raise d by the Noble Lord is important. I am not clear whether or not it i s competent for us to discuss the details o f the charter in this House. I am not at all .sure that it is not a matter of His Majesty's privilege and that the Government cannot give the undertaking which is asked. Therefore, it is lmportant that a postponement should be granted\ and that !